Are There Historical Inaccuracies In The Quran?

rainerann

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They're saying that Quran in the picture predates Muhammad, which might create a bit of a timeline problem.

Even if that weren't a possibility, we can see that the Quran was translated many times in order to be able to be understood in what we know today as Arabic and cannot be considered true to the original form in any sense just by visually seeing the differences in the written language.
 

Haich

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Even if that weren't a possibility, we can see that the Quran was translated many times in order to be able to be understood in what we know today as Arabic and cannot be considered true to the original form in any sense just by visually seeing the differences in the written language.
The Quran's meaning has been translated into various languages true but it's original Arabic form is in tact and has been preserved since its inception.

Meaning hasn't been altered, most Muslims learn the Arabic for that reason, to understand and preserve the meaning of the text
 

rainerann

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I also learned that the Quran tells us that King David made coats of chain mail, even though that type of armour wasn't invented until the Celts started making it 500 years after David died. Why would the Quran say David was manufacturing a type of armour that didn't exist during his lifetime?​

[Commanding him], "Make full coats of mail and calculate [precisely] the links, and work [all of you] righteousness. Indeed I, of what you do, am Seeing."

Try reading this without the additions in the brackets.

"Make full coats of mail and calculate the links, and work righteousness. Indeed I, of what you do, am Seeing."

Even still, try reading it in another translation.

"34:10 And certainly We gave David abundance from Us: O mountains, repeat praises with him, and the birds, and We made the iron pliant to him,

34:11 Saying: Make ample (coats of mail), and assign a time to the making of coats of mail and do ye good. Surely I am Seer of what you do."

and without the parenthesis.

34:10 And certainly We gave David abundance from Us: O mountains, repeat praises with him, and the birds, and We made the iron pliant to him,

34:11 Saying: Make ample and assign a time to the making of coats of mail and do ye good. Surely I am Seer of what you do."

http://www.aaiil.org/text/hq/trans/ch34.shtml

Basically, verse 10 seems to be suggesting that David was able to use iron efficiently because he has favor from God. Then, it says to make ample, which would be the command to the iron. This doesn't seem to suggest making a lot of chain mail for battle, which someone thought to add in parenthesis.

So then assigning the time to making of coats of mail could be part of this command God is making to the iron and is more or less God prophetically speaking to the iron and giving the iron a purpose.

Although, how the term is translated still suggests that even during the crusades, there were revisions made to the Quran, which they were able to get away with at the time because no one was allowed to question the accuracy of the Quran the way we are able to do today.

It is clear that there are many different interpretations of this passage in the present and people feel at liberty to add things to the text that completely change the meaning in modern times reflected in the passage. All the more reason to believe they were still doing this during the time of the crusades.

The Arabic language was basically created with the creation of the Quran. Therefore, it is likely that someone created the Quran out of their own imagination using Christian writings, to begin with.

In the earliest versions of the Quran that we have, there are few vowel points that can be seen, so it is difficult to know how it was even originally pronounced. In Aramaic and Hebrew, vowel points are used for beginner readers. Advanced reading levels don't use vowel points like the text in the picture of the oldest Quran appears.

Most of the pronunciation had to be made up when the Quran was created in Arabic, and vowel points are more of a fixed feature of the Arabic language. They are not as optional like in other Semitic languages.

In Semitic languages, the vowels can go all around the letter to make different sounds. The Jews would speak Aramaic in Assyria because of how similar it was to Hebrew. In Hebrew, a vowel point on the top can mean an "o" sound. Vowels points on the bottom of the letter can mean "a" "e" "i".

Ancient Aramaic has a very similar way of changing the sound of the letter with different markings. There are examples here. These markings have the potential to change a GH sound to a J sound and A to an E. In any other language, you could never get away with changing a vowel or a letter and having the word retain the same meaning and definition. For example, "jar" could not be understood as Ghar or Jer or Gher and expect anyone to know that you were referring to a container for a food item or something.

Therefore, I think someone made up a lot of the Quran when they were changing the Aramaic language into Arabic and adding vowel points to the original text. Without these vowel points on the original Quran text or other ancient texts in Arabic for comparison, it is reasonable to assume that many of the words were created in presumption, vowel points were added, and people were told that is what the word means even if it was far from the original meaning. There is even a possibility that the originals were destroyed to prevent people from learning that there was ever a different version of the Quran.

"According to a variant Islamic tradition, Hajjaj ibn Yusuf, governor of Iraq, collects the Qur'an, standardizes its text, has variants burned, and distributes his version to all the Islamic provinces."

This is taken from the timeline given in a book discussing the absence of actual evidence that Muhammad ever existed.

What this verse suggests is that this word, in particular, was difficult for the translators of the Quran. So they associated this, and many other things, with the present world they were familiar with; and that the whole message that the Quran is the direct word of God is nothing more than a fairy tale or wishful thinking because of the evidence of this.
 
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Thunderian

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The Quran's meaning has been translated into various languages true but it's original Arabic form is in tact and has been preserved since its inception.
Have you ever really looked into it?

People say a lot of things against the Bible, and there's not much they can say that I haven't examined for myself. It's one of the reasons I know I can trust the Bible as the word of God. I've tested it and questioned it.

But there is a LOT of evidence that suggests the Quran is not the perfectly preserved book Muslims claim it is, and dodging questions about it or refusing to question what you're told about it does not inspire confidence in it.

Is it possible that one reason some Muslims get so violent in their defense of Islam is because they're afraid to face hard questions about their faith?

Face the hard questions. I have, when it comes to the Bible, and my faith in God is much stronger for it.
 
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Prove it then.
Lol. I don't have to prove a negative. You made baseless claims, I explained the reality in simple terms. You and your supporters can't accept the reality so you regurgitated the same drivel.
Wash. rinse. repeat. No thanks, I'm done. Peace.
 
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1) You clearly got these points from anti-islam websites. You're so transparent it's not even funny.

2)
Today I learned that the Quran says that Joseph was sold by his brothers for "a few dirhams". The problem is that the dirham was not in use as a currency until about 700 years after Joseph was sold. Why does the Quran say Joseph was sold for a currency that didn't exist?


Firstly this is a pretty silly point to even be making. The Quran presents stories in a context/language for it's own people, it will typically use a relatable language/style.
You know what this is? it's the mythos aspect of scripture.
This is why it requires a basic bit of hikmah (wisdom) to actually get it.

For example
Genesis 1-2.....scientifically it is a load of nonsense
I simply understand how Gensis 1-2 are an aspect of mythos.
This is precisely why the israelites didn't write down the oral torah (ie the hikmah to understand the torah which would explain the real intent/meaning of such texts) because they know certain things are mythological truths.
When you share this with.....dumb people, they lose faith.

The Quran tells us about various prophets who were given a scripture AND the hikmah.

in otherwords, the scripture never existed on it's own, there was always a deeper wisdom behind it which the prophet's understood.

For me, a large part of accepting scripture is about UNDERSTANDING that it held value in it's primary intended purpose.

so basically, sure thing...
Dirhams didn't exist in that time. The egyptians didn't even use coins at that point.
However the story has to be relatable for the audienc.



3)

I also learned that the Quran tells us that King David made coats of chain mail, even though that type of armour wasn't invented until the Celts started making it 500 years after David died. Why would the Quran say David was manufacturing a type of armour that didn't exist during his lifetime?



good one

1 Samual 17:38

38 Then Saul clothed David with his armor; he put a bronze helmet on his head and clothed him with a coat of mail.


It's quite cute of you to talk about David whilst there's a host of 'bible historians' who deny David even existed.
in otherwords, not much is really known about him anyway so arguing on this point would be pointless.

like bro @grateful servant pointed out

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."



4)
I learned that the Egyptians of Joseph's time supposedly practiced crucifixion, even though there is no historical record of this. Why would the Quran say the Egyptians crucified people when there is no evidence of this?

again "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
for example, the general idea is the romans crucifiied people...a lot.

yet
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2015/12/08/this-bone-provides-the-only-skeletal-evidence-for-crucifixion-in-the-ancient-world/

only one piece of real evidence exists (not including historical written records since we're comparing with egypt and over 1000 years prior).
So maybe the egyptians did practice crucifixion?


5)
I learned from the Quran that it was a Samaritan who led the children of Israel to form and worship a golden calf, even though the Samaritans weren't a people until several hundred years later. Why would the Quran credit the golden calf to a people who didn't even exist?



Surah 20
85 (Allah) said: "We have tested thy people in thy absence: the Samiri has led them astray."



The samaritans may not have been a 'people', but they call themselves by a term..."Shamerim" which means
"Guardians/Keepers/Watchers (of the Torah)"


so basically it's bit like how Pakistan means 'pure land' or alternatively 'land of the pure'
does that mean if the word 'paak' (pure) was used in any context in the an old scripture, it had to be refer to actual pakistanis?

............
"Korah is represented as a wise man, chief of his family and as one of the Kohathites who carried the Ark of the Covenant on their shoulders (Tan., ed. Buber, Ḳoraḥ, Supplement, 5; Num. R. xviii. 2)."
im pretty sure Korah was a priest which means this title 'Shamerim' could apply to him.



6)
I learned that Haman was actually a minister of the Pharoah during the time of Moses, and not, as the book of Esther tells us, a minister in the court of the Persian king Ahasuerus, a thousand years later. How could the Quran get this so mixed up?


i've done some reading up on this so when I found a possible answer I of course wanted to know how the christian side have put it to bed?

from your fav website.


"Figure 4: Hieroglyph entry for "hmn-h" and his profession "Vorsteherder Steinbruch arbeiter" meaning "the chief / overseer of the workers in the stone-quarries" and dates from the New Kingdom Period."

So there was a person with a name translated into hmn-h who was the Cheif of the workers in the stone-quarries at that time,

right?

So what's written about Haman in the Quran?

(3) Fir'aun (Pharaoh) said: "O chiefs! I know not that you have an ilah (a god) other than me. So kindle for me (a fire), O Haman, to bake (bricks out of) clay, and set up for me a Sarh (a lofty tower, or palace) in order that I may look at (or look for) the Ilah (God) of Musa (Moses); and verily, I think that he [Musa (Moses)] is one of the liars."
(سورة القصص, Al-Qasas, Chapter #28, Verse #38)


to me that's pretty striking.



about the book of Esther, is it a God inspired text? it actually isn't.



http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2008/03/did-purim-reall.html


"One need look no further for the holiday's Babylonian roots than the names of its heroes: Mordecai is derived from the Babylonian god Marduk; as for Esther, Rabbi Nehemiah explains in tractate Megilla 13a as follows: "Hadassa was her original name; why then was she called Esther? Because Idol worshipers referred to her after the name of the planet Venus, or Ishtar."…"


I don't know where this haman figure appeared from in the book of Esther Maybe because the book of esther is a forgery with made up names they got the name haman from somewhere?


http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/Perspectives_1/article_100808.shtml

What is more interesting, however, is that most credible biblical scholars consider the Book of Esther to be a fraud. For example, the Interpreters One-Volume Commentary on the Bible, written by some of the leading biblical scholars in the world, states, “Various historical and chronological inaccuracies and improbabilities lead to the conclusion that the book is something less than dependable history and was written a long time after the events it describes.” Author H. Neil Richardson goes on to say the “book is the work of a skilled literary artist …”

The Book of Esther was originally believed to have been written by Mordecai. The book was then “modified” or “redacted,” words changed or rewritten, by a group of Jewish scribes known as the Great Assembly.

Even Mr. Netanyahu’s co-religionists disagree with the validity of the Book of Esther. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia we learn, “Comparatively few modern scholars of note consider the narrative of Esther to rest on an historical foundation … . The vast majority of modern expositors have reached the conclusion that the book is a piece of pure fiction.”


did you learn irony today?
 

Haich

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Have you ever really looked into it?

People say a lot of things against the Bible, and there's not much they can say that I haven't examined for myself. It's one of the reasons I know I can trust the Bible as the word of God. I've tested it and questioned it.

But there is a LOT of evidence that suggests the Quran is not the perfectly preserved book Muslims claim it is, and dodging questions about it or refusing to question what you're told about it does not inspire confidence in it.

Is it possible that one reason some Muslims get so violent in their defense of Islam is because they're afraid to face hard questions about their faith?

Face the hard questions. I have, when it comes to the Bible, and my faith in God is much stronger for it.
I read the Quran in Arabic, read the tafsir and the English translation regularly. There is no difference between three. The only difference is word order, so say there's a verse which reads 'in your life , there'll be trials' (in Arabic), the English translation may read 'there'll be trials in your life'.
furthermore, you can't just read the Quran with translations. There are various commentaries which are needed when studying Quran, otherwise it won't make sense to the reader. I recommend this book for those who actually want to study it

IMG_3704.JPG

Well your questions were answered by two other Muslims you just refuse the accept their answers, they're clearly either fluent or confident in Arabic to explain and clarify what you claimed but you're not interested in truth you're interested in finding supposed faults in the Quran. It's fine continue, you won't find discrepancies. It's a poetic masterpiece, the literary techniques used have to be appreciated- I find it a linguistic miracle and have yet to come across another book quite as perfect

Who's being violent? State your evidence, sweeping statements have no place here

You haven't faced any hard questions, many questions have been addressed on various threads and you and others still post the same things so what exactly are you hoping to achieve ?
Study your faith and show me where Jesus states he is actually God, and the loosely worded verse regularly quoted regarding 'the word' doesn't cut it. He didn't say ' I am God' he prostrated to God, he isn't a begotten son either and your book is riddled with inconsistencies. Read through the numerous threads on here and question your bible, God doesn't take it lightly when people claim he begot a son.

Seriously what are you going to say to God?
I was too sinful to approach you so I prayed via Jesus? Makes no sense. Pray to God directly, some of you are clearly searching for truth and answers since you keep making threads about Islam. If you are confident in your faith you wouldn't be interested in dissecting and commenting on Islam and the Quran. My advice is if you're sincere about actually wanting to know more about islam for educational purposes, read what's being posted instead of dismissing it like you know better
 

Haich

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Christian:

Yh man the Quran is bogus man

Muslim:

It's not, it explains ... (detailed and thorough response)

Christian:

No no but Mohammed married a girl

Muslim:

No, she was...(detailed and thorough response)

Christian:

You Muslims are angry and hate Jews

Muslim:

IMG_3709.GIF


I mean, really? Where are these discussions heading. Man I just wish you knew the reality that awaits, may God guide us and may we not associate partners with him and may we all worship him alone.

Peace to all, I hope people will benefit from the valuable words of the knowledgeable people on this forum. InshaAllah
 

Thunderian

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1) You clearly got these points from anti-islam websites. You're so transparent it's not even funny.
It's telling that you look at any questioning of your faith as anti-Islam. It's also par for the course with you guys to shoot the messenger. Anyway, thanks for your reply. I do appreciate it.

2)
Today I learned that the Quran says that Joseph was sold by his brothers for "a few dirhams". The problem is that the dirham was not in use as a currency until about 700 years after Joseph was sold. Why does the Quran say Joseph was sold for a currency that didn't exist?


Firstly this is a pretty silly point to even be making. The Quran presents stories in a context/language for it's own people, it will typically use a relatable language/style.
So why is it such a crime when the Bible does that? This thread, if you'll recall, came out of the accusation that the entire Bible is false because Moses dared refer to the king of Egypt as Pharoah in a time frame that was a couple hundred years before the term was used in hieroglyphics. I will split hairs with you until the end of time, but you have to be consistent.

However the story has to be relatable for the audienc.
Then why is the Quran so difficult to read, even for Arab scholars? If it's God's last message to mankind, could he not have made it a little more accessible? If you compare the language of the Bible and the language of the Quran, it's pretty easy to see which one was inspired by a God who wanted his message to get through.

3)

I also learned that the Quran tells us that King David made coats of chain mail, even though that type of armour wasn't invented until the Celts started making it 500 years after David died. Why would the Quran say David was manufacturing a type of armour that didn't exist during his lifetime?



good one

1 Samual 17:38

38 Then Saul clothed David with his armor; he put a bronze helmet on his head and clothed him with a coat of mail.
There is a difference between linked chain mail -- as the Quran is talking about -- and mail.

4)
I learned that the Egyptians of Joseph's time supposedly practiced crucifixion, even though there is no historical record of this. Why would the Quran say the Egyptians crucified people when there is no evidence of this?

again "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
for example, the general idea is the romans crucifiied people...a lot.

yet
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2015/12/08/this-bone-provides-the-only-skeletal-evidence-for-crucifixion-in-the-ancient-world/

only one piece of real evidence exists (not including historical written records since we're comparing with egypt and over 1000 years prior).
So maybe the egyptians did practice crucifixion?
I already conceded that one. :)


5)
I learned from the Quran that it was a Samaritan who led the children of Israel to form and worship a golden calf, even though the Samaritans weren't a people until several hundred years later. Why would the Quran credit the golden calf to a people who didn't even exist?



Surah 20
85 (Allah) said: "We have tested thy people in thy absence: the Samiri has led them astray."



The samaritans may not have been a 'people', but they call themselves by a term..."Shamerim" which means
"Guardians/Keepers/Watchers (of the Torah)"
So let me see if I understand you correctly. While Moses was up on Mount Sinai receiving the Torah, the Shamerin, who fancied themselves the keepers of it (even though it was still up on the mountain and no one could have known it existed yet) were leading the Jews in building a golden calf to worship, that is, instead of the God of the Torah they were supposedly keepers of?

Feel free to correct anything I have wrong about your theory.

6)
I learned that Haman was actually a minister of the Pharoah during the time of Moses, and not, as the book of Esther tells us, a minister in the court of the Persian king Ahasuerus, a thousand years later. How could the Quran get this so mixed up?


i've done some reading up on this so when I found a possible answer I of course wanted to know how the christian side have put it to bed?

from your fav website.


"Figure 4: Hieroglyph entry for "hmn-h" and his profession "Vorsteherder Steinbruch arbeiter" meaning "the chief / overseer of the workers in the stone-quarries" and dates from the New Kingdom Period."

So there was a person with a name translated into hmn-h who was the Cheif of the workers in the stone-quarries at that time,

right?
So what's written about Haman in the Quran?

(3) Fir'aun (Pharaoh) said: "O chiefs! I know not that you have an ilah (a god) other than me. So kindle for me (a fire), O Haman, to bake (bricks out of) clay, and set up for me a Sarh (a lofty tower, or palace) in order that I may look at (or look for) the Ilah (God) of Musa (Moses); and verily, I think that he [Musa (Moses)] is one of the liars."
(سورة القصص, Al-Qasas, Chapter #28, Verse #38)
Thanks for bringing up that verse. It's obvious that Muhammad garbled the story of Moses, the book of Esther, and the tower of Babel into one fable.

Since you're so enamored of what Biblical scholars have to say that agrees with your prejudices, I'll return the favour. Here's what Louis Maracci, professor of Arabic in the College of Wisdom at Rome, and Quranic scholar, had to say about it this:

Mahumet has mixed up sacred stories. He took Haman as the adviser of Pharaoh whereas in reality he was an adviser of Ahaseures, King of Persia. He also thought that the Pharaoh ordered construction for him of a lofty tower from the story of the Tower of Babel. It is certain that in the Sacred Scriptures there is no such story of the Pharaoh. Be that as it may, he [Mahumet] has related a most incredible story.
It's clear to anyone who reads it without prejudice that the Quran is what historians and scholars have been saying it is for years, and what anyone who is familiar with the Bible can see right away. It's a bad plagiarism and conflation of every religion that Muhammad heard stories about. This is borne out by his cringe-worthy re-telling of stories from the Bible and from Persian legend, his complete misunderstanding of Christian doctrine, and as we have seen, his lack of any kind of knowledge of history or science.
 
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Every time Christian theology is challenged on forums the Christians resort to posting material from websites that's already been answered.
We can go back and forth all day long but i already know your track record.

Those points have already evidently been refuted yet you're still insisting you have a point to make.
E.g. Hmn-h existed in te same context the Quran gave us.
The story of Esther on the other hand doesn't really have anything to back it up. It's priMary criticism comes from bible scholar many of whom are/were Christians and Jews.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Might it be fair to say that the reason this thread sprang up in the first place was due to @Kung Fu and @grateful servant repeatedy pointing out some supposed dicscrepancy over the use of the words 'Pharaoh' and 'King' in the Torah?

Several people tried with reasoned explanations (on a thread on something else entirely) to provide a sensible response to material no doubt sourced from an anti-biblical website ;-)

I believe @Thunderian was simply pointing out that if Islam has severe difficulties with the supposed inaccuracy of the Bible, it should take great care in the use of such arguments as it draws the spotlight to the scientific and historical veracity of their own sacred text.
 

rainerann

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1 Samual 17:38

38 Then Saul clothed David with his armor; he put a bronze helmet on his head and clothed him with a coat of mail.


It's quite cute of you to talk about David whilst there's a host of 'bible historians' who deny David even existed.
in otherwords, not much is really known about him anyway so arguing on this point would be pointless.

like bro @grateful servant pointed out

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
The King James Version is the one where you will find 1 Samuel 17:38 translated as coat of mail.

The use of mail very clearly indicates the time period that this verse was translated, which was the year 1611. The word mail is derived from a French word and English is a mixture of many languages, so we use this term to refer to a coat of armor. Modern translations will refer to this as some type of coat of armor or protective covering. There is nothing that specifies this was made of any specific material. It could have been made out of leather or some kind of animal skin that would create a barrier for your skin and be more difficult to cut through and could also be called a coat of mail if you do not include any indication of iron or linking pieces.

The Jews actually have a long history of leather work.

They were known for their leather work starting as early as Biblical times, all the way through the middle ages. So the use of the term mail in the King James Version demonstrates the time of translation rather than a specific description of what David wore.

Therefore, it is likely that the presence of this within the Quran demonstrates the time of translation as well, and does create the possibility that there were revisions made to the Quran up until the time of the crusades if we include the terms that are translated into English as linking and iron.

The Celts are credited with the creation of chain mail around 500 BC and they were located in the regions we know as England and France where the term chain mail would be created. The use of chain mail become more popular by northern European locations during the time when the crusaders were rounded up from the region that was formerly inhabited by the Celts, and were sent to the Holy land.

Chain mail is characteristic of the crusades and middle ages. The Roman period has some discussion of chain mail, but breastplates, leather armor, and scale armor were more frequently used. In fact, if you do a search of Roman armor, you will not immediately see one example of chain mail. We basically just know it existed in the Roman period and that the Roman empire extended into what is now known as France and England and the Romans became exposed to Celtic chain mail because of this.

Therefore, the possibility remains that the translation of the term chain mail reflects the time of translation taking place when chain mail had something of a consistent presence, which began with the crusades. The crusades began in the year 1095 just a few hundred years after the Quran was supposedly written down. The crusaders had very direct encounters with this region as well so it is very likely to have influenced revisions of the Quran, and the use of chain mail by the Ottoman empire that began following the crusades.

There is a distinct the absence of any real evidence that chain mail existed in the middle east before this. There is evidence of scale armor in ancient Persia, but no real evidence of a type of armor made by linking chains of iron, which is a distinction made by the Quran that the Bible does not make.

I want to add that I worked very hard on this all by myself. This is an original work that will be impossible to find in duplicate form anywhere on the web in any way, shape, or form.
 

Thunderian

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Every time Christian theology is challenged on forums the Christians resort to posting material from websites that's already been answered.
We can go back and forth all day long but i already know your track record.
To the best of my knowledge, none of these points have been addressed on this board at any time in the past, and some of them still have not. :)

I know for a fact, however, that some of the Muslims posting on this thread have had the Trinity explained to them at least a half dozen times, and I have personally shown Kung Fu at least twice that 1 John 5:7 does, in fact, exist in the ancient Bible manuscripts he insists it does not. Muslims also like to remind us in nearly every thread that the Bible is "riddled with inconsistencies", but I have yet to see any one of these supposed errors stand up to any kind of real study, and the people who make these claims against scripture know that full well by now.
 
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To the best of my knowledge, none of these points have been addressed on this board at any time in the past, and some of them still have not. :)

I know for a fact, however, that some of the Muslims posting on this thread have had the Trinity explained to them at least a half dozen times, and I have personally shown Kung Fu at least twice that 1 John 5:7 does, in fact, exist in the ancient Bible manuscripts he insists it does not. Muslims also like to remind us in nearly every thread that the Bible is "riddled with inconsistencies", but I have yet to see any one of these supposed errors stand up to any kind of real study, and the people who make these claims against scripture know that full well by now.
lol man

over the years ive been on forums where all day everyday there were indian hindus, sikhs and athiests constantly debating the muslims. so in my mindset i realised, there's def people with a stick up their arse about islam and they are relentless and will try every tactic.
pretty much all those athiests were once hindus and then they changed tactics to becoming athiest.
not to say you're like them....but ultimately it becomes pointless. the reason id indulge in those debates was for my own sake...to learn for myself what i could learn.

at the end of the day there are soooo many websites online where this is all the christians or whoever else talk about.
you all demand answers, but there are so many different responses online...there's so much material already posted...people have put hours into those..and yet they don't just stop do they? the disagreements just grow and grow.

it isn't because i lack the ability to reply back with credible points...i just can't be arsed with the back and forth arguments anymore.

Look...it's like you dissed the Quran as a forgery that's taken from the tower of babel story, the book of esther story and the exodus story.
you say this...and i disagree with that purely because from the bit of research i did last night
we can safely say there is archeological evidence (heiroglyphs) specifically telling us a man with the name 'HMN-H' existed, what his job entailed and in the same period of time...
this at least provides SOME degree of evidence the Quran is correct.
it isn't real proof, but it supports the Quran for sure.

on the otherhand the point i made about the authenticity of the book of esther..the scholars involved are often christians and even jews. see christians and jews often have no problem writing out certain parts of scripture. The reason is obviously because the history of the bible as a whole contains so much history, so many different texts (like even the psalm don't have one author).
With that said, when I used to read the bible..i chose to put aside the small stuff and focus on the bigger picture.
for example when I read the NT as a whole, i became supportive of Paul's arguments and even found the Quran lends credibility (at least from a muslim pov) to Paul's arguments.
however it takes honesty and also familiarity to understand this point.
for me...ive found some of what Paul taught, to be deeply rooted in hindu ideas..and those ideas are also connected to sufi ideas.
basically i have certain beliefs/perspectives that are formed by understanding as many different elements as i can.
if i was stuck only reading Quran/hadith, i would not understand.
similarly if you only read the bible, you'll not understand,

for example the trinity

sufism
Hahut
Lahut
Jabarut

hinduism
Brahman
Vishnu
Brahma-Shiva (these 2 represent causation and dissolution ie the descent and ascent of consciousness).
these 3 levels are all levels where God is manifest..but it is the 3rd level jabarut/brahma where duality comes from...and it's the same level i associate with the holy spirit.

I believe in the trinity.
i just don't believe in it the way you believe in it
i've also has disagreements with a fair number of muslims with my stance, for example i beleive in the crucifixion for sure.
BUT despite this, i stills ee christians regularly attack the Quran as it 'denies the crucifixion'
basically i think people are ignorant...the truth is really there if you explore it.
i can explain myself all day long but no one else can appreciate my points unless they've taken the time themselves to study texts over a prolonged period of time and gradually formed new understanding ie only happens when you find yourselfr challenged.
for example, when I read the bible...the more i read it the more i realised not only did the crucifixion happen..it was a 'confirmation' of my original understanding of the topic related to fana, the nafs ie sufism which i used to defend.
i used to regularly get asked for evidence from 'Quran and hadith' for this stuff yet i found it crystal clear in the bible.
how could I not accept the crucifixion after all that?

the one guy on here who gets this..is @Serveto and he's a guy who has an understanding of different religions.
meaning he's had experiences and learnt things over his life that allow him to see the bigger picture.
 
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