Aisha's age at the time of her marriage

[TempestOfTempo]

There was never a time in history where p***philia was normal or looked at as a virtue. You're just a perverted apologist. If a man marries a girl who hasn't gone through puberty and can't have children, the only point of the marriage would be degenerate unnatural reasons. Jesus said it would be better to have a millstone tied to his neck and cast into the sea. That's the punishment Muhammad is going through now and forever.

You should avoid proclaiming that which you dont know. We are here to attempt an investigation, we have reached no conclusions. I am stating Muhammed was no child abuser and thus far, my evidence presented is so rock-solid that no coherent, rational counterpoint has been produced by the 6-9 crowd. In order to keep this thing honest and relevant, we should post from a place of intellect, not emotion.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

You too are a perverted degenerate for thinking a 9 years old prepubescent little girl is fit for such things mentally and physically. Queers in this country (US) want the age of consent lowered to 12 in this country, so your line of thinking lines right up with theirs.

It doesn't matter what laws were put into place where and when, it was never looked at as anything a normal person would do. Even in pagan Greece and Rome it was a vice of the elite, and was looked down on by the population. You are a sick and disgusting individual. May God judge you accordingly.

Notice your sources "the homosexuality of men and woman". Your sources fit your mentality

I concur with what you have discerned regarding Desert Shibshib and the rest of her 6-9 crowd.

 

[recure]

I am no Arabic expert but from the understanding of most, when verses speaks about marriage, it is referring to women. There is a distinction between women and girl here. Also it mentions a 'marriageable age' though it doesn't state what.

There is no distinction in the Arabic as it uses feminine nouns, e.g. al-mushrikaat, which is composed of mushrik (polytheist) + the feminine plural suffix -aat. The word “women” is added to English translations to indicate the grammatical gender.

Sahih International: And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease. (65:4}

Here it refers to women who have gone through menopause, those who have not menstruated, it does not say those who are too young to menstruate.

It is not stated but it can be inferred, just as the opinion that it refers to women with irregular periods can be inferred. Yet according to Tafsir ibn Kathir, an authoritative commentary of the Qur'an, "those who have not menstruated" refers to "the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation" (Source).

 

[TempestOfTempo]

For anyone actually interested in an answer to Bubbasparkles question...

Notice when asked what Quranic scripture he is using to reference his perspective, sparkles replys with the generic response of "writings"... but when asked to differentiate between Quran and hadeeth, he still cites hadeeth. Repeatedly. Dishonest and pointless as we are already debating the authenticity of hadeeth in the first place. His only actual attempt at posting Quranic verse and translation is:
"Surah 2:228 depicts Allah saying a man has to wait three monthly cycles before he can divorce his wife; in Surah 65:4, it gives exceptions to that rule: women who are too old, women who are too young, or women who are pregnant."

However, here is a generally accepted translation:
"And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women – if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah – He will make for him of his matter ease." – Quran 65:4 (Sahih International Translation)

In the actual translation, we can see children are not addresses. So who are addressed? Specifically, "those who have not menstruated." It doesnt take a genius to see that the references are to females of child bearing age. People who are old enough to engage in marital relations and potentially bear children of their own, yet for whatever reasons are not experiencing menses. Pretty cut and dry but look at the crowd this puts him in with... the same creeps employing hadeeth interpretation and Quranic translation manipulation in order to theologically justify ped activity.

Congrats sparkles, you joined the Desert Shibshib posse.

 

[iWundr]

The Quran teaches in its laws that a man has to wait three monthly cycles to divorce his wife, then mentions "woman who are too young" to have a cycle in the divorce laws.

Surah 2:228 depicts Allah saying a man has to wait three monthly cycles before he can divorce his wife; in Surah 65:4, it gives exceptions to that rule: women who are too old, women who are too young, or women who are pregnant. This shows that child marriage was permissible. Additionally, the chapter heading of Sahih al-Bukhari 5133 is ‘Giving young children in marriage is permissible by virtue of Statement of Allah’. The chapter cites verses 65:4 as well as the words of Aisha, who repeats that Muhammad consummated their marriage when she was nine years old.
Women

I want to apologise firstly for being so back and forth with my comments. I don’t have the time to spend on this forum as much as I would like to, to address concerns regarding Islam and Muslims etc. Please also bare in mind I cannot give any legal rulings, it is only my job to re-educate you on your mistakes and then rest is yours to accept or not.
So you wrote the Surah 2:228 depicts a man must wait? Nope. A divorced woman must wait a period of 3 months before she can remarry as it is not lawful for her to conceal what is in her womb.
Scientific Fact:
According to Dr. Jamal Eddin Ibrahim, a professor of toxicology at the University of California and Director of the Research Laboratory Research in life in the United States, the results of his research indicate that a study of research on the immune system of women shows the existence of immune that has a genetic memory that recognizes foreign objects that enter the body of women and Storing the genetic characteristics of the object, And to note is that the cell The cell lives for 120 days in the female reproductive system. He also asserted that if foreign substances entering the female reproductive system change, such as sperm before this period (the iddah period), then there will be interference with the immune system and cause the risk of malignant tumors. And Dr. Jamal Eddin Ibrahim also explained that this is a scientific study on the increase of cervical and breast cancer that affects women who have sexual relationships with more than one man.
He (Dr. Jamal Eddin Ibrahim) reveals, that this study also determined that special cells maintain genetics for 120 days. Therefore, if there is a marriage relationship before this period, and pregnancy occurs, it will bring some genetic traits of the sperm from the first and second husband to the fetus.
In A Nutshell: unless that husband wants his traits mixing in with another guy (oh the ego of men) I’m sure he’ll understand waiting. It’s a respect to the physiological rights of a woman and this waiting period known in Arabic as an Iddah, also gives both parties a time away from each other in case of reconciliation. It’s like when people say ‘we need a break’. They don’t really want to divorce, they just need a break to re-evaluate.
[This is one cleanup of more to come] Sorry to the Author of this post as it is off topic but like a teacher marking an essay, need to correct those mistakes as I go along or the student cannot truly get that honourable and deserving grade.

 

[iWundr]

The Quran teaches in its laws that a man has to wait three monthly cycles to divorce his wife, then mentions "woman who are too young" to have a cycle in the divorce laws.

Surah 2:228 depicts Allah saying a man has to wait three monthly cycles before he can divorce his wife; in Surah 65:4, it gives exceptions to that rule: women who are too old, women who are too young, or women who are pregnant. This shows that child marriage was permissible. Additionally, the chapter heading of Sahih al-Bukhari 5133 is ‘Giving young children in marriage is permissible by virtue of Statement of Allah’. The chapter cites verses 65:4 as well as the words of Aisha, who repeats that Muhammad consummated their marriage when she was nine years old.
Women

ISSUE No 2- Misquoting again.
Because you did not understand Surah 2:228 to begin with, you assumed it was ok to link surah 65:4 as some meaningful evidence to YOUR OWN beliefs and not the truth. You felt it was ok to use this false interpretation to evidence that peado behaviour was acceptable and that the Quran was testament to this.

Surah 65:4- As for your women past the age of menstruation, if you do not know, the waiting period is 3 months. As well as those who have not yet menstruated. As for the pregnant, their waiting period is until after delivery.
We have already ascertained from the first quoted Surah that the divorced women should wait a period which allows for physiological healing as well as the chance for reconciliation. From this Surah we ascertain more depth on each level of a woman, including the old, the young and the pregnant- giving scope to the respect and rights of female stages. When it refers to the women who have not menstruated yet, it does not imply young girls who have not attained puberty. What is the logic in waiting for a child to menstruate??? What would be achieved in 3 months?? The most obvious understanding is that she must go through 3 monthly cycles in her waiting period as the menstruation with help in clearing her reproductive organs. 3 monthly cycles for the woman menstruating.
At this point I will recommend to those have an actual interest in Islam for the purpose of debate and analysis to also reflect on the ‘Tafsir’ of Quran surahs to help in understanding that Surah more efficiently.

 

[Bubbajay]

I want to apologise firstly for being so back and forth with my comments. I don’t have the time to spend on this forum as much as I would like to, to address concerns regarding Islam and Muslims etc. Please also bare in mind I cannot give any legal rulings, it is only my job to re-educate you on your mistakes and then rest is yours to accept or not.
So you wrote the Surah 2:228 depicts a man must wait? Nope. A divorced woman must wait a period of 3 months before she can remarry as it is not lawful for her to conceal what is in her womb.
Scientific Fact:
According to Dr. Jamal Eddin Ibrahim, a professor of toxicology at the University of California and Director of the Research Laboratory Research in life in the United States, the results of his research indicate that a study of research on the immune system of women shows the existence of immune that has a genetic memory that recognizes foreign objects that enter the body of women and Storing the genetic characteristics of the object, And to note is that the cell The cell lives for 120 days in the female reproductive system. He also asserted that if foreign substances entering the female reproductive system change, such as sperm before this period (the iddah period), then there will be interference with the immune system and cause the risk of malignant tumors. And Dr. Jamal Eddin Ibrahim also explained that this is a scientific study on the increase of cervical and breast cancer that affects women who have sexual relationships with more than one man.
He (Dr. Jamal Eddin Ibrahim) reveals, that this study also determined that special cells maintain genetics for 120 days. Therefore, if there is a marriage relationship before this period, and pregnancy occurs, it will bring some genetic traits of the sperm from the first and second husband to the fetus.
In A Nutshell: unless that husband wants his traits mixing in with another guy (oh the ego of men) I’m sure he’ll understand waiting. It’s a respect to the physiological rights of a woman and this waiting period known in Arabic as an Iddah, also gives both parties a time away from each other in case of reconciliation. It’s like when people say ‘we need a break’. They don’t really want to divorce, they just need a break to re-evaluate.
[This is one cleanup of more to come] Sorry to the Author of this post as it is off topic but like a teacher marking an essay, need to correct those mistakes as I go along or the student cannot truly get that honourable and deserving grade.

The reason I posted that wasn't to bring into question men or woman waiting 3 months after a woman's cycle, but to show it mentions children before they reached their cycle in the context of marriage. It proves the Quran teaches men marrying prepubescent children. I'm talking about the Arabic version itself, not some translation "some people" might find valid.

 

[iWundr]

This is Aishas own words on the subject. One would think that she would know...........Narrated ‘Aishah that the Prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).”[1]
“The Messenger of God came to our house and men and women of the Ansar gathered around him. My mother came to me [Aisha] while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. Jumaymah, my nurse, took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door, she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought [in] while the Messenger of God was sitting on a bed in our house. [My mother] made me sit on his lap and said, “These are your relatives. May God bless you with them and bless them with you!” Then the men and women got up and left. The Messenger of God consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”[2]

And here is the beautiful peice of the pie that everyone is getting sweaty over. I wish the energies combined in this thread went towards greater good- like how priests are still raping boys underneath the guise of ‘Gods work’ and destroying the lives of innocent, innocent children and putting real dirt on Christianity. Something needs to be done about that, seriously. No one under any religious authority in this day and age has a right to do what they want to whoever they want and say it’s in the name of God. Do you know why it’s different when figures of respect and admiration like Jesus and Muhammed, peace be unto both of them, say something and do something? Because you know through their truthful characters and the goodness they gave out and the way people can add to testimony on their greatness, you know if they say it’s from God, then it is from God. Muhammad was not a sickening depraved character, but some Arabs at the that time, they were sickening and depraved. The entire society was, hence why Islam was introduced to add tolerance, respect and unity back into the community. The actions and acts of Peados and the Philia is against nature and it goes against whoever is on the recipient of it. It is hands-down a henious crime and an evil disposition.
Narrated Aisha: "When the girl becomes 9 years old, she has become a woman."
[4]Jami at-Tirmidhi 1109
Aisha was of age of maturity and considered a women at that time. If you consider this as peodo behaviour then you must research all other notable acts of this violent nature and condone that behaviour thoroughly. You should advocate against it as much as possible because we are still learning today that many peodo rings are prevalent across the globe, the rich and educated elites are especially interested in this toxicity and that millions of children are missing and destroyed this way. Against their will and according to modern understandings, definitely not of a mature age either.
But you don’t do this for the injustice is it..

let us all ask ourselves this question. If peodo behaviour was and is allowed… then why doesn’t the Quran say all men can do it?

 

[Behumble]

The Quran teaches in its laws that a man has to wait three monthly cycles to divorce his wife, then mentions "woman who are too young" to have a cycle in the divorce laws.

Surah 2:228 depicts Allah saying a man has to wait three monthly cycles before he can divorce his wife; in Surah 65:4, it gives exceptions to that rule: women who are too old, women who are too young, or women who are pregnant. This shows that child marriage was permissible. Additionally, the chapter heading of Sahih al-Bukhari 5133 is ‘Giving young children in marriage is permissible by virtue of Statement of Allah’. The chapter cites verses 65:4 as well as the words of Aisha, who repeats that Muhammad consummated their marriage when she was nine years old.
Women

I have been waiting for the moderator to approve my posts since I tried to edit, but I will just delete and repost. I will read the "pie" later, do not have time now.

Hi sorry if this has been addressed already but I just had a quick glimpse of this thread and wanted to point out some things in the verses you mentioned. I do not want to get into this debate because it becomes a vicious cycle. Just adding some food for thought.


Sahih International: Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods (2:228)


Let's look at a few verses that mentions marriage, I am using Sahih International translation.


And do not marry polytheistic women until they believe. And a believing slave woman is better than a polytheist, even though she might please you. (2:221)

O You who have believed, when you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have touched them, then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them. So provide for them and give them a gracious release. (33:49)

And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. (4:6)

And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls. And Allah is most knowing about your faith. You [believers] are of one another. So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable. (4:25)


I am no Arabic expert but from the understanding of most, when verses speaks about marriage, it is referring to women. There is a distinction between women and girl here. Also it mentions a 'marriageable age' though it doesn't state what.

Looking at the other verse:

Sahih International: And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease. (65:4}

Here it refers to women who have gone through menopause, those who have not menstruated, it does not say those who are too young to menstruate.

Pickthall: And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not.

Yusuf Ali: Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same)

Shakir: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses;


From a semantic point of view the pronoun 'those' are referring back to the women.

Some women do not experience menstruation every month, some are irregular. Missed period is a common thing resulting from a number of factors, health, diet, stress etc. But another explanation could be that women who were expecting would wait 3 periods before confirmation of their pregnancy. How can you know if someone was pregnant if they didn't have pregnancy tests back then? or had a clear bump or showed any symptoms? That's why the waiting period is 3 months for divorced women to see if they were expecting and the husband can take her back during this time.

Also women who are breastfeeding usually do not experience menstrual cycles during this time and the prescribe period of breastfeeding is up to 2 years in the Quran.

 

[Bubbajay]

And here is the beautiful peice of the pie that everyone is getting sweaty over. I wish the energies combined in this thread went towards greater good- like how priests are still raping boys underneath the guise of ‘Gods work’ and destroying the lives of innocent, innocent children and putting real dirt on Christianity. Something needs to be done about that, seriously. No one under any religious authority in this day and age has a right to do what they want to whoever they want and say it’s in the name of God. Do you know why it’s different when figures of respect and admiration like Jesus and Muhammed, peace be unto both of them, say something and do something? Because you know through their truthful characters and the goodness they gave out and the way people can add to testimony on their greatness, you know if they say it’s from God, then it is from God. Muhammad was not a sickening depraved character, but some Arabs at the that time, they were sickening and depraved. The entire society was, hence why Islam was introduced to add tolerance, respect and unity back into the community. The actions and acts of Peados and the Philia is against nature and it goes against whoever is on the recipient of it. It is hands-down a henious crime and an evil disposition.
Narrated Aisha: "When the girl becomes 9 years old, she has become a woman."
[4]Jami at-Tirmidhi 1109
Aisha was of age of maturity and considered a women at that time. If you consider this as peodo behaviour then you must research all other notable acts of this violent nature and condone that behaviour thoroughly. You should advocate against it as much as possible because we are still learning today that many peodo rings are prevalent across the globe, the rich and educated elites are especially interested in this toxicity and that millions of children are missing and destroyed this way. Against their will and according to modern understandings, definitely not of a mature age either.
But you don’t do this for the injustice is it..

let us all ask ourselves this question. If peodo behaviour was and is allowed… then why doesn’t the Quran say all men can do it?

By so you're claiming a 9 year old is a woman. Lol

 

[Bubbajay]

I have been waiting for the moderator to approve my posts since I tried to edit, but I will just delete and repost. I will read the "pie" later, do not have time now.

Hi sorry if this has been addressed already but I just had a quick glimpse of this thread and wanted to point out some things in the verses you mentioned. I do not want to get into this debate because it becomes a vicious cycle. Just adding some food for thought.


Sahih International: Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods (2:228)


Let's look at a few verses that mentions marriage, I am using Sahih International translation.


And do not marry polytheistic women until they believe. And a believing slave woman is better than a polytheist, even though she might please you. (2:221)

O You who have believed, when you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have touched them, then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them. So provide for them and give them a gracious release. (33:49)

And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. (4:6)

And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls. And Allah is most knowing about your faith. You [believers] are of one another. So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable. (4:25)


I am no Arabic expert but from the understanding of most, when verses speaks about marriage, it is referring to women. There is a distinction between women and girl here. Also it mentions a 'marriageable age' though it doesn't state what.

Looking at the other verse:

Sahih International: And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease. (65:4}

Here it refers to women who have gone through menopause, those who have not menstruated, it does not say those who are too young to menstruate.

Pickthall: And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not.

Yusuf Ali: Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same)

Shakir: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses;


From a semantic point of view the pronoun 'those' are referring back to the women.

Some women do not experience menstruation every month, some are irregular. Missed period is a common thing resulting from a number of factors, health, diet, stress etc. But another explanation could be that women who were expecting would wait 3 periods before confirmation of their pregnancy. How can you know if someone was pregnant if they didn't have pregnancy tests back then? or had a clear bump or showed any symptoms? That's why the waiting period is 3 months for divorced women to see if they were expecting and the husband can take her back during this time.

Also women who are breastfeeding usually do not experience menstrual cycles during this time and the prescribe period of breastfeeding is up to 2 years in the Quran.

The verse is speaking of two different woman, hence the "also for". Also I doubt there's anyone waiting in line to marry a woman who's breastfeeding someone else's child lol. These are all modern apologetics. People like IWundr hold the normal view of most middle eastern or Arabic Muslims that 9 years old was considered a woman back then, when its not the case. Call it what it is, pedophillia.

I'm pretty much done with the conversation. Its obvious to anyone who's looked into the matter that traditional Muslims all agree that Muhammad married a six year old, but since its highly frowned upon in non Muslim countries modern apologetics are trying to adapt to the situation.



Sahih International: And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease. (65:4}

 

[TempestOfTempo]

And here is the beautiful peice of the pie that everyone is getting sweaty over. I wish the energies combined in this thread went towards greater good- like how priests are still raping boys underneath the guise of ‘Gods work’ and destroying the lives of innocent, innocent children and putting real dirt on Christianity. Something needs to be done about that, seriously. No one under any religious authority in this day and age has a right to do what they want to whoever they want and say it’s in the name of God. Do you know why it’s different when figures of respect and admiration like Jesus and Muhammed, peace be unto both of them, say something and do something? Because you know through their truthful characters and the goodness they gave out and the way people can add to testimony on their greatness, you know if they say it’s from God, then it is from God. Muhammad was not a sickening depraved character, but some Arabs at the that time, they were sickening and depraved. The entire society was, hence why Islam was introduced to add tolerance, respect and unity back into the community. The actions and acts of Peados and the Philia is against nature and it goes against whoever is on the recipient of it. It is hands-down a henious crime and an evil disposition.
Narrated Aisha: "When the girl becomes 9 years old, she has become a woman."
[4]Jami at-Tirmidhi 1109
Aisha was of age of maturity and considered a women at that time. If you consider this as peodo behaviour then you must research all other notable acts of this violent nature and condone that behaviour thoroughly. You should advocate against it as much as possible because we are still learning today that many peodo rings are prevalent across the globe, the rich and educated elites are especially interested in this toxicity and that millions of children are missing and destroyed this way. Against their will and according to modern understandings, definitely not of a mature age either.
But you don’t do this for the injustice is it..

let us all ask ourselves this question. If peodo behaviour was and is allowed… then why doesn’t the Quran say all men can do it?

Please stick to the topic. Please don't post more whataboutisms of deflections. Please stop with the finger pointing unless its directed inwardly. The verse in discussion is pretty clear... its referring to females of marriageable, child bearing age. Children (of any age) are not mentioned because they do not fit the criteria of marriageability or childbearing maturity.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

I have been waiting for the moderator to approve my posts since I tried to edit, but I will just delete and repost. I will read the "pie" later, do not have time now.

Hi sorry if this has been addressed already but I just had a quick glimpse of this thread and wanted to point out some things in the verses you mentioned. I do not want to get into this debate because it becomes a vicious cycle. Just adding some food for thought.


Sahih International: Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods (2:228)


Let's look at a few verses that mentions marriage, I am using Sahih International translation.


And do not marry polytheistic women until they believe. And a believing slave woman is better than a polytheist, even though she might please you. (2:221)

O You who have believed, when you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have touched them, then there is not for you any waiting period to count concerning them. So provide for them and give them a gracious release. (33:49)

And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. (4:6)

And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls. And Allah is most knowing about your faith. You [believers] are of one another. So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable. (4:25)


I am no Arabic expert but from the understanding of most, when verses speaks about marriage, it is referring to women. There is a distinction between women and girl here. Also it mentions a 'marriageable age' though it doesn't state what.

Looking at the other verse:

Sahih International: And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease. (65:4}

Here it refers to women who have gone through menopause, those who have not menstruated, it does not say those who are too young to menstruate.

Pickthall: And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not.

Yusuf Ali: Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same)

Shakir: And (as for) those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses;


From a semantic point of view the pronoun 'those' are referring back to the women.

Some women do not experience menstruation every month, some are irregular. Missed period is a common thing resulting from a number of factors, health, diet, stress etc. But another explanation could be that women who were expecting would wait 3 periods before confirmation of their pregnancy. How can you know if someone was pregnant if they didn't have pregnancy tests back then? or had a clear bump or showed any symptoms? That's why the waiting period is 3 months for divorced women to see if they were expecting and the husband can take her back during this time.

Also women who are breastfeeding usually do not experience menstrual cycles during this time and the prescribe period of breastfeeding is up to 2 years in the Quran.

Its clear to any reasonable person what the meaning of that verse is and anyone interested in honest discussion can see the logic in your post. People like Desert Rose and Bubbasparkles see what they want to, even if they know better. Even if their games hurt children... they dont care.

 

[Behumble]

I'm pretty much done with the conversation. Its obvious to anyone who's looked into the matter that traditional Muslims all agree that Muhammad married a six year old, but since its highly frowned upon in non Muslim countries modern apologetics are trying to adapt to the situation.

If you are done and want to believe that Muhammad married a 6 year old then that is your provocative, you did not come here in order to seek answers you came to see if anyone will dispute your opinion. This way of approaching a debate lacks in critical thinking because you are clouded by your prejudice.

The Quran already states that:

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur’ān?1 If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction.(4:82)

Had it not been for that hadith this would not have become a debate, if you read the Quran, you will not have found this matter something to dispute over. Hadiths are good when we can be sure of its authenticity. This is a difficult task at hand, as some deals with a lot of grey areas and have some contradictions. What we can take from it is the good messages/lessons.

The verse is speaking of two different woman, hence the "also for". Also I doubt there's anyone waiting in line to marry a woman who's breastfeeding someone else's child lol. These are all modern apologetics. People like IWundr hold the normal view of most middle eastern or Arabic Muslims that 9 years old was considered a woman back then, when its not the case. Call it what it is, pedophillia.

And I doubt there are Muslim men waiting in line to marry a 9 year old either but you only want to see it one way. If you are that concerned about p***philia why not deal with modern p***philia problems? This has been happening throughout history in different race and cultures and it is an on going problem now. Why be bothered about the history of it in a particular religion? p***philia

Sahih International: And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease. (65:4}

Again you seem to understand this verse as:

1. Females who have never had their periods before
2. Women who are constantly menstruating that this line doesn't apply to them

 

[Behumble]

Its clear to any reasonable person what the meaning of that verse is and anyone interested in honest discussion can see the logic in your post. People like Desert Rose and Bubbasparkles see what they want to, even if they know better. Even if their games hurt children... they dont care.

I am still waiting on my other post to be approved where I analyze the Arabic. Like I said before this topic just becomes a vicious cycle for those who are closed minded.

 

[TempestOfTempo]

I am still waiting on my other post to be approved where I analyze the Arabic. Like I said before this topic just becomes a vicious cycle for those who are closed minded.

I see. However, the moderator must be the actual site owner because I have received no notifications of your post. Im interested to read it once its approved!

 

[Behumble]

I see. However, the moderator must be the actual site owner because I have received no notifications of your post. Im interested to read it once its approved!

It's been since Sunday now, just a bunch of jpegs of the verses. But when I tried to post without it and just the Arabic text it still needed approval... ?!

 

[TempestOfTempo]

It's been since Sunday now, just a bunch of jpegs of the verses. But when I tried to post without it and just the Arabic text it still needed approval... ?!

Hopefully they approve it soon...

 

[Behumble]

Also I would like to point out a few other observations.

80% of miscarriages occur during the first trimester, this is from 0-13 weeks, basically the first 3 months into pregnancy.
This waiting period allows not only confirmation of pregnancy but also to allow for such unfortunate occurrence as it would be inconsiderate to divorce a woman who is grieving over a lost baby.

p***philia comes with abuse, you have hadith that mentions her age but there is none that states her being emotional/physical abused during her marriage. As we know often is the case in these situations, the victims usually suffers from miscarriages or having unwanted children. We also know that Aisha was childless at the time of her death.

 

[Behumble]

There is no distinction in the Arabic as it uses feminine nouns, e.g. al-mushrikaat, which is composed of mushrik (polytheist) + the feminine plural suffix -aat. The word “women” is added to English translations to indicate the grammatical gender.


It is not stated but it can be inferred, just as the opinion that it refers to women with irregular periods can be inferred. Yet according to Tafsir ibn Kathir, an authoritative commentary of the Qur'an, "those who have not menstruated" refers to "the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation" (Source).

And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth.1 And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease. (65:4)

The Arabic term in this verse is women (nisaa', same as the chapter) so "those" in this context is referring back to the "women" and nothing to do with the feminine suffix.

O Prophet, when you [Muslims] divorce women, divorce them for [the commencement of] their waiting period and keep count of the waiting period, and fear Allah, your Lord. Do not turn them out of their [husbands'] houses, nor should they [themselves] leave [during that period] unless they are committing a clear immorality. And those are the limits [set by] Allah. And whoever transgresses the limits of Allah has certainly wronged himself. You know not; perhaps Allah will bring about after that a [different] matter.
And when they have [nearly] fulfilled their term, either retain them according to acceptable terms or part with them according to acceptable terms. And bring to witness two just men from among you and establish the testimony for [the acceptance of] Allah. That is instructed to whoever should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him a way out.
And will provide for him from where he does not expect. And whoever relies upon Allah - then He is sufficient for him. Indeed, Allah will accomplish His purpose. Allah has already set for everything a [decreed] extent. (65:1-3)

The first 3 verse of this chapter also states women using the term nisaa', and when we get to verse 4 all of a sudden we don't know whether its in the context or women or girl?