The Fantasy/Scifi and other associated genres discussion thread

[Tidal]

..when Gollum bites the ring and takes it into the fire that act of mercy ultimately saves Frodo and middle earth.

Yup that's it, Frodo was finally overcome by the power of the Ring and couldn't throw it into the volcano to destroy it, but Gollum bites off his finger with the Ring on it then accidentally topples into the volcano, inadvertently destroying it-

Return of the King Book VI ch 3
Then Frodo stirred and spoke with a clear voice, indeed with a voice clearer and more powerful than Sam had ever heard him use, and it rose above the throb and turmoil of Mount Doom, ringing in the roof and walls.
'I have come,' he said. 'But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!' And suddenly, as he set it on his finger, he vanished from Sam's sight. Sam gasped, but he had no chance to cry out, for at that moment many things happened.
Something struck Sam violently in the back, his legs were knocked from under him and he was flung aside, striking his head against the stony floor, as a dark shape sprang over him. He lay still and for a moment all went black.

Sam got up. He was dazed, and blood streaming from his head dripped in his eyes. He groped forward, and then he saw a strange and terrible thing. Gollum on the edge of the abyss was fighting like a mad thing with an unseen foe. To and fro he swayed, now so near the brink that almost he tumbled in, now dragging back, falling to the ground, rising, and falling again. And all the while he hissed but spoke no words.
The fires below awoke in anger, the red light blazed, and all the cavern was filled with a great glare and heat. Suddenly Sam saw Gollum's long hands draw upwards to his mouth; his white fangs gleamed, and then snapped as they bit. Frodo gave a cry, and there he was, fallen upon his knees at the chasm's edge. But Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring, a finger still thrust within its circle. It shone now as if verily it was wrought of living fire.
'Precious, precious, precious!' Gollum cried. 'My Precious! O my Precious!' And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail "Precious!", and he was gone.

...[Later Frodo said to Sam]- "Do you remember Gandalf's words: 'Even Gollum may have something yet to do?'
But for him, Sam, I could not have destroyed the Ring. The Quest would have been in vain, even at the bitter end. So let us forgive him! For the Quest is achieved, and now all is over. I am glad you are here with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam.'

 

[Maldarker]

Yup that's it, Frodo was finally overcome by the power of the Ring and couldn't throw it into the volcano to destroy it, but Gollum bites off his finger with the Ring on it then accidentally topples into the volcano, inadvertently destroying it-

Return of the King Book VI ch 3
Then Frodo stirred and spoke with a clear voice, indeed with a voice clearer and more powerful than Sam had ever heard him use, and it rose above the throb and turmoil of Mount Doom, ringing in the roof and walls.
'I have come,' he said. 'But I do not choose now to do what I came to do. I will not do this deed. The Ring is mine!' And suddenly, as he set it on his finger, he vanished from Sam's sight. Sam gasped, but he had no chance to cry out, for at that moment many things happened.
Something struck Sam violently in the back, his legs were knocked from under him and he was flung aside, striking his head against the stony floor, as a dark shape sprang over him. He lay still and for a moment all went black.

Sam got up. He was dazed, and blood streaming from his head dripped in his eyes. He groped forward, and then he saw a strange and terrible thing. Gollum on the edge of the abyss was fighting like a mad thing with an unseen foe. To and fro he swayed, now so near the brink that almost he tumbled in, now dragging back, falling to the ground, rising, and falling again. And all the while he hissed but spoke no words.
The fires below awoke in anger, the red light blazed, and all the cavern was filled with a great glare and heat. Suddenly Sam saw Gollum's long hands draw upwards to his mouth; his white fangs gleamed, and then snapped as they bit. Frodo gave a cry, and there he was, fallen upon his knees at the chasm's edge. But Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring, a finger still thrust within its circle. It shone now as if verily it was wrought of living fire.
'Precious, precious, precious!' Gollum cried. 'My Precious! O my Precious!' And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell. Out of the depths came his last wail "Precious!", and he was gone.

...[Later Frodo said to Sam]- "Do you remember Gandalf's words: 'Even Gollum may have something yet to do?'
But for him, Sam, I could not have destroyed the Ring. The Quest would have been in vain, even at the bitter end. So let us forgive him! For the Quest is achieved, and now all is over. I am glad you are here with me. Here at the end of all things, Sam.'

It was the three that under took the quest Sam Frodo & Gollum. Each represents a part of the human condition.

 

[Drifter]

It was the three that under took the quest Sam Frodo & Gollum. Each represents a part of the human condition.

Very interesting. I havent read the books yet but I've seen the movies multiple times. Would you say they're faithful adaptations?

 

[Maldarker]

I would say that they are closer then some movies.

 

[Cintra]

The films are sort of amazing...

But the books are cannon.

 

[Corvus Metus]

I like Michael Moorcock's Elric series quite a bit. Love that the character is sort of a deconstruction of the typical swords and sorcery protagonist. Rather that being a muscular, rugged powerful dude he's a skinny, sickly pretty boy that manages to be bad ass because of magic and cursed sword.

What I read of Glen Cook's Black Company is good.

I love Neil Giaman's writing, too. American Gods and Neverwhere are great books.

If we can count non-literature fantasy, I'm a fan of Berserk and Vampire Hunter D. Record of Lodoss Wars, too. Sandman, Hellblazer, and Books of Magic (the 90's Vertigo incarnation and the original mini-series) are good, too... Although depending, since they have some blending into superhero stuff, some folks might not count them as fantasy.

I'm not big on sci-fi literature. Too many shows/movies to list though.

 

[Cintra]

Sandman!
Omg, that was good.

And Watchmen...

 

[Maldarker]

I like Michael Moorcock's Elric series quite a bit. Love that the character is sort of a deconstruction of the typical swords and sorcery protagonist. Rather that being a muscular, rugged powerful dude he's a skinny, sickly pretty boy that manages to be bad ass because of magic and cursed sword.

What I read of Glen Cook's Black Company is good.

I love Neil Giaman's writing, too. American Gods and Neverwhere are great books.

If we can count non-literature fantasy, I'm a fan of Berserk and Vampire Hunter D. Record of Lodoss Wars, too. Sandman, Hellblazer, and Books of Magic (the 90's Vertigo incarnation and the original mini-series) are good, too... Although depending, since they have some blending into superhero stuff, some folks might not count them as fantasy.

I'm not big on sci-fi literature. Too many shows/movies to list though.

Oh my!!! I forgot about ELRIC of Melnibone & the sword Stormbringer. Yup such a different take on the hero fantasy troupe.

The Black Company is outstanding.

 

[Tidal]

Very interesting. I havent read the books yet but I've seen the movies multiple times. Would you say they're faithful adaptations?

I first read the LOTR trilogy 40 years ago but the film was a disappointment to me, I think that's because books paint pictures on the inside of our skull that no film can live up to.
My main gripe is that the terrain scenes were too bland and earth-like and I wish director Jackson had used subtle colour filters to give an "other-worldly" mysterious feel to them.
PS- some of the films music was nicely mysterious, I especially liked the bit below but it was sadly all too brief-

 

[Cintra]

I first read the LOTR trilogy 40 years ago but the film was a disappointment to me, I think that's because books paint pictures on the inside of our skull that no film can live up to.
My main gripe is that the terrain scenes were too bland and earth-like and I wish director Jackson had used subtle colour filters to give an "other-worldly" mysterious feel to them.
PS- some of the films music was nicely mysterious, I especially liked the bit below but it was sadly all too brief-

I had a lot of little niggles about the films, why x or y had been changed, or left out, or added.
But the only thing that really pissed me off was that scene where Frodo believes Gollum over Sam, about the bread.
That really annoyed me.

 

[Tidal]

I wonder if the Ring would still somehow have been destroyed even if Gollum had never been born, as if the universe itself will always find a way to keep history on track?

Two interesting Twilight Zone episodes explore that theme, the first is "Cradle of Darkness" when a German-speaking woman is sent back in time to get a job in the Hitler household so that she can kill the baby Adolf, thereby preventing WW2.
The second is "The Once and Future King" where a guy gets accidentally thrown back in time to 1950's America and hitches a ride into town in a truck driven by a young unknown Elvis Presley.

SPOILER ALERTS-
i won't give away the twists in the tails, suffice it to say that she does kill Adolf, but WW2 still happens anyway, and in the other one Elvis is accidentally killed while still unknown, yet later another Elvis Presley still starts cutting records and becomes famous!

PS- Another time travel film springs to mind, I can't remember its name but a guy goes back to the 1960's to try to persuade Pres.Johnson to pull troops out of Vietnam because the war would be lost anyway, and further sacrifice would be pointless.
SPOILER ALERT- Johnson does fully believe him but instead of pulling out the troops he sends many more in to try to stave off defeat, but still loses the war anyway.

So like I speculated, perhaps the universe will find a way to keep history unchanged and on track no matter what a time-traveller might do to change it..

 

[Maes17]

I had a lot of little niggles about the films, why x or y had been changed, or left out, or added.
But the only thing that really pissed me off was that scene where Frodo believes Gollum over Sam, about the bread.
That really annoyed me.

Cause the films have to be a bit watered down into 3 hour boredom and filled with non canon action sequences for the sped people.

 

[Maes17]

Very interesting. I havent read the books yet but I've seen the movies multiple times. Would you say they're faithful adaptations?

Eh. Close enough. I’m not one of those hardcore book nerds to say that’s not how this or that happened.

 

[Cintra]

@Journeyman
I am reading Rats and Gargoyles again because you mentioned it!
Yay!!!
Zaribet! She has a tail!

Cause the films have to be a bit watered down into 3 hour boredom and filled with non canon action sequences for the sped people.

But the Frodo Sam thing was way out of character.
It was unnecessary, and character breaking.

 

[Corvus Metus]

I wonder if the Ring would still somehow have been destroyed even if Gollum had never been born, as if the universe itself will always find a way to keep history on track?

Two interesting Twilight Zone episodes explore that theme, the first is "Cradle of Darkness" when a German-speaking woman is sent back in time to get a job in the Hitler household so that she can kill the baby Adolf, thereby preventing WW2.
The second is "The Once and Future King" where a guy gets accidentally thrown back in time to 1950's America and hitches a ride into town in a truck driven by a young unknown Elvis Presley.

SPOILER ALERTS-
i won't give away the twists in the tails, suffice it to say that she does kill Adolf, but WW2 still happens anyway, and in the other one Elvis is accidentally killed while still unknown, yet later another Elvis Presley still starts cutting records and becomes famous!

PS- Another time travel film springs to mind, I can't remember its name but a guy goes back to the 1960's to try to persuade Pres.Johnson to pull troops out of Vietnam because the war would be lost anyway, and further sacrifice would be pointless.
SPOILER ALERT- Johnson does fully believe him but instead of pulling out the troops he sends many more in to try to stave off defeat, but still loses the war anyway.

So like I speculated, perhaps the universe will find a way to keep history unchanged and on track no matter what a time-traveller might do to change it..

With the way most physicists think time travel could theoretically work, if you went back in time and killed baby Hitler, you might certainly prevent the rise of Adolf Hitler into power... But in doing so, you'd just create a new timeline. So you didn't actually stop WWII from happening.

Regarding Gollum; I think things still would have worked out similarly, depending on when he died. If he died, at some point during the events of Lord of the Ring, Frodo would have still likely reached Mount Doom, although it would likely end with a struggle between Frodo and Sam. If Bilbo killed him... Well, there's a good chance Biblo would become the next Gollum, so to speak and history would have repeated. Sauron only knew the ring was in the Shire because Gollum was captured.

 

[Maes17]

@Journeyman
I am reading Rats and Gargoyles again because you mentioned it!
Yay!!!
Zaribet! She has a tail!



But the Frodo Sam thing was way out of character.
It was unnecessary, and character breaking.

Nerd

 

[Tidal]

As time-travel movies go, 'The Final Countdown' was a big disappointment to me-

The Final Countdown (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

SPOILER ALERT-
Kirk Douglas and his modern super-duper aircraft carrier were somehow thrown back in time to just before Pearl Harbor, yet he did absolutely NOTHING to help defend the islands!
If i'd had my way he'd have been court-martialled and jailed for dereliction of duty.
I mean, presumably he'd taken the Navy Oath to "defend American lives and property", yet he chickened out in a shameful display of indecisive hand-wringing!

 

[Maldarker]

As time-travel movies go, 'The Final Countdown' was a big disappointment to me-

The Final Countdown (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

SPOILER ALERT-
Kirk Douglas and his modern super-duper aircraft carrier were somehow thrown back in time to just before Pearl Harbor, yet he did absolutely NOTHING to help defend the islands!
If i'd had my way he'd have been court-martialled and jailed for dereliction of duty.
I mean, presumably he'd taken the Navy Oath to "defend American lives and property", yet he chickened out in a shameful display of indecisive hand-wringing!

Loved the movie should have nuked japan lol! Also loved the The Philadelphia Experiment when i was a kid until i saw the actual papers on it in the military. (More real then they let on)

 

[Maldarker]

marvel comics are my fav ones

Yup way better then DC

 

[Cintra]

The BIG question.

What do you really think of the Silmarillion?