Hell & The Odds of an Afterlife

[seekinheart]

It's not a problem, it's reality. Even you made a decision to accept the Bible as your moral guidebook.

yeh, because a moral source and standard for good and evil is the only way life makes any sense, moral relativism refutes itself. and when u follow what ur saying all the way thats what it gets down to.

 

[Lyfe]

@shankara

...a religion that teaches as such is not worth adhering to in my view, the divinity could even be considered cruel. 2pac said my only fear of death is reincarnation. Such a divinity that would subject me to reincarnation and being forced to live out the cruelty of this world again under the pretense that I havent learned my lesson sounds evil. Its a complete rejection of mans weakness and slavery to ego. Its basically punishing him to an endless cycle.

 

[Lyfe]

What did 2pac do to deserve his last incarnation?

 

[shankara]

@shankara

...a religion that teaches as such is not worth adhering to in my view, the divinity could even be considered cruel. 2pac said my only fear of death is reincarnation. Such a divinity that would subject me to reincarnation and being forced to live out the cruelty of this world again under the pretense that I havent learned my lesson sounds evil. Its a complete rejection of mans weakness and slavery to ego. Its basically punishing him to an endless cycle.

Well in a sense one cannot make any statement about "Divinity", at least from the Buddhist perspective. All I can say is that anyone who is sincere in whatever religion they practice is going to make some progress, having a clearer philosophical view helps but it isn't entirely necessary. As to our "human weakness", indeed there is a kind of grace, the "mindstream of the Buddhas" or whatever you want to call it, ego cannot overcome ego (though even the duality Spirit-Ego is just another duality). I find the idea that we have to keep coming to back to work on ourselves until we achieve the goal to be vastly less cruel than the notion of condemning people to eternal(!) suffering for believing in the "wrong" doctrine.

Of course there is also the idea of the Bodhisattva, that true happiness isn't found by abandoning the human realm or going to any kind of paradise, but in staying here and struggling to be a force of compassion.

 

[Lyfe]

Well in a sense one cannot make any statement about "Divinity", at least from the Buddhist perspective. All I can say is that anyone who is sincere in whatever religion they practice is going to make some progress, having a clearer philosophical view helps but it isn't entirely necessary. As to our "human weakness", indeed there is a kind of grace, the "mindstream of the Buddhas" or whatever you want to call it, ego cannot overcome ego (though even the duality Spirit-Ego is just another duality). I find the idea that we have to keep coming to back to work on ourselves until we achieve the goal to be vastly less cruel than the notion of condemning people to eternal(!) suffering for believing in the "wrong" doctrine.

Of course there is also the idea of the Bodhisattva, that true happiness isn't found by abandoning the human realm or going to any kind of paradise, but in staying here and struggling to be a force of compassion.

I would contend the idea of continual reincarnation in this plane of suffering and ego is a form of punishment. After about the 100th reincarnation what are the odds if someone hasn't learned that they will eventually learn in another lifetime? I bet that soul that keeps being reincarnated just seeks love and acceptance yet cant find it....

 

[Hubert]

I get what your saying, but the issue remains that out of every belief in existence(in regards to an account of the creator and creation) there remains atleast one(in a universe of infinite possibility) that has to be 100% right even if its made up or by guessing or throwing a bunch of random ideas together.

Why must there be one? Humanity has only existed for a finite amount of time. It seems highly unlikely that we have already experienced every possible belief. You just want someone to be right, but there is no reason to believe that there is.

No archaeological dig site or ancient text has given us evidence of an afterlife.

 

[Lyfe]

Why must there be one? Humanity has only existed for a finite amount of time. It seems highly unlikely that we have already experienced every possible belief. You just want someone to be right, but there is no reason to believe that there is.

No archaeological dig site or ancient text has given us evidence of an afterlife.

They are meant to corroborate certain accounts as a means to gauge legitimacy.

 

[shankara]

I would contend the idea of continual reincarnation in this plane of suffering and ego is a form of punishment. After about the 100th reincarnation what are the odds if someone hasn't learned that they will eventually learn in another lifetime? I bet that soul that keeps being reincarnated just seeks love and acceptance yet cant find it....

What's worse, continually having the chance to get free from the cycle of rebirth or being condemned to eternal suffering with no chance of respite for believing the wrong thing? Even if one's belief is entirely sincere. You know Jesus doesn't have a monopoly on love and acceptance, there is love and mercy in the Buddha too, practising Dharma doesn't only help us to get free from Samsara but also heals the trauma and pain we have in this life.

It's quite simple really, if a person is attached to Samsara they will remain in it, if they want to get free then they will get free. Sure there is the whole thing of "life is suffering", being in Samsara isn't easy. But there is always the possibility to make progress, no-one is ever definitively condemned.

 

[LieDestroyer]

Hell & The Odds of an Afterlife

I am taking this from another thread and making a topic off of it. This was discussion between me and another forum member.


...and what is this confidence based off? Lets consider the odds from a probability standpoint.

The two major world religions are Christianity and Islam. Judaism obviously deserves recognition, but is minor in comparison to the other two.

Islam teaches that all unbelievers will be judged by God and will be chastised for their sin in hell
Christianity also teaches that there will be a judgment and everyone who is not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire
Judaism teaches that YHWH will judge the nations and that his wrath is against those who do not keep Torah

Based off of these three predominate belief systems you will eventually pay a consequence for your sin. What are the odds that all three of these beliefs are wrong and what chances do you have from a probability perspective? You could rule out Christianity, but what about Judaism and Islam? What are the odds that all three contain a false narrative of reality?

Now lets consider all the other cultures that believed and held the idea of an afterlife of torment. The Greeks believed in a place called Hades. Zoroastrianism speaks of an afterlife of torment if ones evil deeds outweigh the good. Buddism and Hinduism being less predominant teach of a concept of the afterlife where one endures a form of chastisement(though not as severe) for ignorance.

The question you have to ask yourself is based off of all these belief systems what are the odds and what is the probability that at the very least all of the three predominant ones which condemn you are all wrong? The three primary world religions condemn you and that's only three. If I looked at this from an objective standpoint I would conclude there exists a very real chance one of the three accounts of creation and the creator will condemn me according to their rules. Even if there was a 33% chance of only one of the three accounts being right, that is still a significant gamble with ones soul to dismiss the idea of hell entirely as there remains a significant possibility. Who would drive on a bridge where there is a 33% chance it may collapse? Now I ask again what is your confidence based off of and does that confidence still remain when you consider scientific evidence and cultures with history that speak of a worldwide flood, the genesis 6 giants roaming the earth, and extra historical accounts of Jesus Christ?

Have you really weighed the evidence and odds objectively?

There's no afterlife.

 

[LieDestroyer]

What if I prefer to live a carnal life of pleasure in ignorance(sin according to new age beliefs) as opposed to a spiritual life of transcendence?

What is there to transcend to?

Is not "transcendence" itself a form of ignorance?

 

[cjkkw]

What is there to transcend to?

Is not "transcendence" itself a form of ignorance?

do u actually believe u can survive eternal hell?

 

[TokiEl]

You know Jesus doesn't have a monopoly on love and acceptance, there is love and mercy in the Buddha too, practising

Jesus has a monopoly of judging everybody.

You live in His world which He created... and so He matters.


He is the Protagonist in this epic of life... and your choice is to be a friend or foe of Him.

 

[shankara]

Jesus has a monopoly of judging everybody.

You live in His world which He created... and so He matters.


He is the Protagonist in this epic of life... and your choice is to be a friend or foe of Him.

Well yeah, that's how your story goes, I'm a long way from believing it.

 

[TokiEl]

Well yeah, that's how your story goes, I'm a long way from believing it.

Well i can prove it...

God promising to return His people to His land written down over 2000 years ago.


Ezekiel 36 7 Therefore thus says the Lord God: “I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame. 8 But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come.

 

[shankara]

Well i can prove it...

God promising to return His people to His land written down over 2000 years ago.


Ezekiel 36 7 Therefore thus says the Lord God: “I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame. 8 But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come.

Well that's nice, I'm sure there are some things prophesied in the Bible which did actually happen, it's a legitimate source of spiritual knowledge. That doesn't mean the whole story is true, and even less that the interpretations of modern churches are correct. As it happens I have no problem with people taking the words of Jesus as spiritual guidance, the problem comes when people start trying to form doctrines out of it and wind up believing all kinds of absurd stuff which isn't logically coherent.

 

[shankara]

Well i can prove it...

God promising to return His people to His land written down over 2000 years ago.


Ezekiel 36 7 Therefore thus says the Lord God: “I have raised My hand in an oath that surely the nations that are around you shall bear their own shame. 8 But you, O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to My people Israel, for they are about to come.

Also I'd take the whole thing about "Israel" to be symbolic of all those people who are genuinely spiritual, having nothing to do with the modern nation which has usurped that title.

 

[TokiEl]

As it happens I have no problem with people taking the words of Jesus as spiritual guidance, the problem comes when people start trying to form doctrines out of it and wind up believing all kinds of absurd stuff which isn't logically coherent.

Yes and you just did that as well... it's a big problem.

Also I'd take the whole thing about "Israel" to be symbolic of all those people who are genuinely spiritual, having nothing to do with the modern nation which has usurped that title.

 

[Lyfe]

What's worse, continually having the chance to get free from the cycle of rebirth or being condemned to eternal suffering with no chance of respite for believing the wrong thing? Even if one's belief is entirely sincere. You know Jesus doesn't have a monopoly on love and acceptance, there is love and mercy in the Buddha too, practising Dharma doesn't only help us to get free from Samsara but also heals the trauma and pain we have in this life.

It's quite simple really, if a person is attached to Samsara they will remain in it, if they want to get free then they will get free. Sure there is the whole thing of "life is suffering", being in Samsara isn't easy. But there is always the possibility to make progress, no-one is ever definitively condemned.

According to your beliefs this is likely not even my first life and yet I have no recollection of my previous incarnations. What is the point of recycling someone if they cant even remember their past life to learn from it? What are the odds they will ever learn if they are kept in the dark to why they keep being reborn? It doesnt seem very just to me. I wouldnt want Samsara in contrast to somewhere live nirvana, yet I keep getting punished by ending up in existence. Why cant I just go to Nirvana after I have realized that I am a slave to my ego and want something better?

 

[Lyfe]

I would also like to ask that since you have found enlightenment is this your final life before you finally transcend?

 

[shankara]

According to your beliefs this is likely not even my first life and yet I have no recollection of my previous incarnations. What is the point of recycling someone if they cant even remember their past life to learn from it? What are the odds they will ever learn if they are kept in the dark to why they keep being reborn? It doesnt seem very just to me. I wouldnt want Samsara in contrast to somewhere live nirvana, yet I keep getting punished by ending up in existence. Why cant I just go to Nirvana after I have realized that I am a slave to my ego and want something better?

Well so far as I understand we come to remember our past lives when we have the necessary force of merit to be able to learn positively from them. Remembering what has happened in the past could give us too much knowledge, which could be used for evil as well as for good. There are exercises if remembering past lives is something you really want, it's not impossible to awaken the memory.

I guess that simply "realizing you are a slave to your ego" isn't the same as actually comprehending the ways in which you are a slave to your ego and developing self-knowledge or spiritual knowledge. Unfortunately there are no shortcuts really, we all have to live out at least some part of our Karma. Simply having an intellectual realization is not the same thing as having actual spiritual realization and accomplishment. Essentially leaving Samsara is a process of healing as well, but that healing doesn't come without some pain.

I would also like to ask that since you have found enlightenment is this your final life before you finally transcend?

I have not found enlightenment, I have a certain degree of intellectual knowledge and a little spiritual realization of some things, but I'm very far from being a Buddha. It will likely take me some time, and anyway I'm into the ideal of the Bodhisattva, the idea of the unity of Samsara and Nirvana where rather than leaving for some "paradise" (a fool's paradise?) one remains in the world in order to develop further and serve humanity. But attaining the stage of a Bodhisattva is far from an easy thing in itself, and a Buddha even more so.