Hell & The Odds of an Afterlife

[Hubert]

Zero probability based off of what?

I said Non-zero probability. Near zero, but not actually there. Though for practical purposes it can be treated as zero. You get this from comparing the number of possible correct outcomes (a finite number) to the total number of possible situations (Infinite). Any number over infinity is very near, but not actually, zero.

 

[Lyfe]

I said Non-zero probability. Near zero, but not actually there. Though for practical purposes it can be treated as zero. You get this from comparing the number of possible correct outcomes (a finite number) to the total number of possible situations (Infinite). Any number over infinity is very near, but not actually, zero.

Then you contend there is a near 100% chance that ALL these beliefs are wrong... What are the odds of that?

 

[Hubert]

Then you contend there is a near 100% chance that ALL these beliefs are wrong... What are the odds of that?

It's almost certain, that's what i'm trying to explain to you. It's the same reason that almost everyone who plays the lottery doesn't win.

 

[Lyfe]

It's almost certain, that's what i'm trying to explain to you. It's the same reason that almost everyone who plays the lottery doesn't win.

I would contend there is a near 100% probability of one belief being right.

 

[A Freeman]

@Lyfe maybe we should keep the discussion here?



All your accounts prove is that a lot of people believe something. How many people believe something is in no way evidence of whether or not it is true, in fact thinking like that is a logical fallacy known as "appeal to popular belief".

Agreed. It's also against The Law, because the evil majority is almost always wrong.

Exodus 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to [do] evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to agree falsely with the majority and thereby pervert [judgment]:

 

[Hubert]

I would contend there is a near 100% probability of one belief being right.

You would be wrong. If that is your thought you clearly don't understand probability. There are an infinite number of possibilities, and only a finite number of beliefs. Any finite number divided by infinity is infinitely close to zero.

 

[Lyfe]

You would be wrong. If that is your thought you clearly don't understand probability. There are an infinite number of possibilities, and only a finite number of beliefs. Any finite number divided by infinity is infinitely close to zero.

There being 0% probability of atleast one belief being the correct one is is improbable even with infinite possibilities.

 

[Hubert]

There being 0% probability of atleast one belief being the correct one is is improbable even with infinite possibilities.

Do you know what NON-ZERO means? I am going out of my way to concede the simple mathematical fact that there is an infinitely small possibility that one of the major religions has the correct interpenetration of the afterlife.

You are making a far greater assumption, you seem to be assuming that one of the interpretations MUST be correct. What makes you assume that?

 

[Aero]

I took the predominant beliefs of the world we live in and than asked a valid question. What are the odds of ALL these beliefs(as a collective) that foretell of divine chastisement for sin(in the context of their doctrine) being wrong?

I answered your question. But I don't think it's valid anyway.

When you take the totality of every major religion the odds stack up against your idea of hell. Not the other way around.

 

[Lyfe]

I answered your question. But I don't think it's valid anyway.

When you take the totality of every major religion the odds stack up against your idea of hell. Not the other way around.

What are the major religions in your view?

 

[Lyfe]

Do you know what NON-ZERO means? I am going out of my way to concede the simple mathematical fact that there is an infinitely small possibility that one of the major religions has the correct interpenetration of the afterlife.

You are making a far greater assumption, you seem to be assuming that one of the interpretations MUST be correct. What makes you assume that?

Do you know what NON-ZERO means? I am going out of my way to concede the simple mathematical fact that there is an infinitely small possibility that one of the major religions has the correct interpenetration of the afterlife.

You are making a far greater assumption, you seem to be assuming that one of the interpretations MUST be correct. What makes you assume that?

I get what your saying, but the issue remains that out of every belief in existence(in regards to an account of the creator and creation) there remains atleast one(in a universe of infinite possibility) that has to be 100% right even if its made up or by guessing or throwing a bunch of random ideas together.

If you trust your measure of infinite possibility as a safety net then that is your methodology. I contend when you start adding in factors such as archaeological finds and ancient texts that collaborate said stories the probability changes...

 

[Aero]

What are the major religions in your view?

I haven't decided on concrete criteria yet. I'm thinking every religion with at least 1 million current followers.

 

[shankara]

Do you suggest that avoiding hell is the primary purpose of the Bible?

It certainly seems to be the prime purpose of many Christians. The Bible is another thing entirely, as are the sayings of Jesus. So far as I can tell the Bible doesn't refer to the eternal punishment of "sinners", and nor does it suggest that there is some divine law which cannot be overcome without the death of Jesus. For example when it said "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy mind", this is suggesting an ideal which we should strive towards, an end result of overcoming ourselves, not something for which we will be punished (eternally!) if we don't fulfill it today.

 

[Alanantic]

define a good life?

define what is good?

I think you can figure it out without my help.

 

[seekinheart]

I think you can figure it out without my help.

lol.

Tells people to live a good life, tells me to figure it out, thats the problem isnt it.

What if i think a good life, is having 5 wives, and eating as much food as i can, and taking as many drugs as i want? leaving a good looking corpse? is that really good?

its all about moral objective values without them, life is ultimately meaningless

 

[shankara]

In eastern religions ignorance is the great sin and there is even a form of punishment reserved for the unenlightened.

It's a little more complex than that. A lot more. Enlightenment doesn't necessarily involve developing a lot of intellectual knowledge. Negative deeds are punished, and unlike in Christianity there isn't a "free" way out, Karma can be overcome but through our own efforts. Yes, there are notions of Divine Grace as well, especially in the Bhakti traditions, in fact in all traditions in the sense that ego can't overcome ego so there has to be another force involved. In Buddhism the cause of hell is anger, the Preta realm intense desire and greed, the animal realm ignorance.

I would recommend actually making serious studies of the Eastern religions, not only in order to make correct statements about them, but also because you might find in them a kind of reasoning which is basically alien to the Abrahamic traditions. In the Abrahamic religions things begin with the enigmatic and poetic statements of prophets, philosophies developed as a kind of secondary element. The Eastern teachings are in themselves philosophical, founded on logic and upon debate with other traditions to establish correct tenet systems.

 

[Lyfe]

It certainly seems to be the prime purpose of many Christians. The Bible is another thing entirely, as are the sayings of Jesus. So far as I can tell the Bible doesn't refer to the eternal punishment of "sinners", and nor does it suggest that there is some divine law which cannot be overcome without the death of Jesus. For example when it said "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy soul and all thy mind", this is suggesting an ideal which we should strive towards, an end result of overcoming ourselves, not something for which we will be punished (eternally!) if we don't fulfill it today.

The primary purpose of the Bible is revelation of God and invitation to his family.


I would also like to bring up the unfairness of new age beliefs...

What if I prefer to live a carnal life of pleasure in ignorance(sin according to new age beliefs) as opposed to a spiritual life of transcendence? Is it fair that the laws of the universe would subject me to reincarnation(a form of punishment) rather than finally allowing me to ascend into a state of nirvana, because I failed to achieve greater consciousness and rejected striving for enlightenment and ascension in this life? Also what if my flesh is weak and though I enjoy the idea of being spiritual and try to live a spiritual life I fail and simply cannot overcome my fleshly passions and desires out of weakness as they rule over my spiritual aspirations? Is the universe going to punish me for my weakness, because I could not overcome my carnal desires? I would say that such a universe is cruel and unfair for not letting me ascend, because though I want to ascend and become spiritual I cannot, because I am weak.... Such a universe that would reincarnate me and force me to live another existence in this plane is cruel rather than allow me to ascend and finally be at peace is unfair...

 

[Lyfe]

It's a little more complex than that. A lot more. Enlightenment doesn't necessarily involve developing a lot of intellectual knowledge. Negative deeds are punished, and unlike in Christianity there isn't a "free" way out, Karma can be overcome but through our own efforts. Yes, there are notions of Divine Grace as well, especially in the Bhakti traditions, in fact in all traditions in the sense that ego can't overcome ego so there has to be another force involved. In Buddhism the cause of hell is anger, the Preta realm intense desire and greed, the animal realm ignorance.

I would recommend actually making serious studies of the Eastern religions, not only in order to make correct statements about them, but also because you might find in them a kind of reasoning which is basically alien to the Abrahamic traditions. In the Abrahamic religions things begin with the enigmatic and poetic statements of prophets, philosophies developed as a kind of secondary element. The Eastern teachings are in themselves philosophical, founded on logic and upon debate with other traditions to establish correct tenet systems.

...and someone is illogical for finding the idea of reincarnation and other new age concepts such as past lives silly?

 

[Alanantic]

lol.

Tells people to live a good life, tells me to figure it out, thats the problem isnt it.

What if i think a good life, is having 5 wives, and eating as much food as i can, and taking as many drugs as i want? leaving a good looking corpse? is that really good?

its all about moral objective values without them, life is ultimately meaningless

It's not a problem, it's reality. Even you made a decision to accept the Bible as your moral guidebook.

 

[shankara]

The primary purpose of the Bible is revelation of God and invitation to his family.


I would also like to bring up the unfairness of new age beliefs...

What if I prefer to live a carnal life of pleasure in ignorance(sin according to new age beliefs) as opposed to a spiritual life of transcendence? Is it fair that the laws of the universe would subject me to reincarnation(a form of punishment) rather than finally allowing me to ascend into a state of nirvana, because I failed to achieve greater consciousness and rejected striving for enlightenment and ascension in this life? Also what if my flesh is weak and though I enjoy the idea of being spiritual and try to live a spiritual life I fail and simply cannot overcome my fleshly passions and desires out of weakness as they rule over my spiritual aspirations? Is the universe going to punish me for my weakness, because I could not overcome my carnal desires? I would say that such a universe is cruel and unfair for not letting me ascend, because though I want to ascend and become spiritual I cannot, because I am weak.... Such a universe that would reincarnate me and force me to live another existence in this plane is cruel rather than allow me to ascend and finally be at peace is unfair...

I'm not a new-ager by any stretch of the imagination, but I will try to respond to your points.

The degree of knowledge a person has is in itself dependent on their actions in a past life. In fact people get something of what they want in their successive incarnations, with the caveat that they will face the karmic reactions of fulfilling those desires. Continually incarnating until one makes the choice to turn around, awaken and purify themselves, is vastly less cruel than the concept of eternal punishment for having made a mistake about what the correct doctrine is. Furthermore it doesn't involve the imposition of any particular doctrine, there is the awareness that all different beliefs can be useful to certain individuals in their own spiritual process.

As for those who don't have the strength to make the struggle, obviously if they are sincere and have devotion they will eventually attain what they are seeking. I myself am far from perfect, but I trust that the efforts I do make will eventually bear fruit and that no sincere spiritual work is ever wasted. This doctrine is found in the Bhagavad Gita, and Tibetan Buddhism has the notion that different practitioners have different levels of ability but all are on the right path.

...and someone is illogical for finding the idea of reincarnation and other new age concepts such as past lives silly?

Actually I don't believe in "reincarnation", I believe in "rebirth". I don't believe we have a spiritual personality which is the same from one life to the next, such a concept doesn't exist in Buddhism. The whole thing has been hijacked by the New Agers, who are vastly less philosophical than the Sages. Rebirth is the only solution whereby people receive the just results of their actions ("every action has an equal and opposite reaction") without an excess of punishment or an excess of mercy.