The seemingly stark contrast between the OT and NT God explained...

[Artful Revealer]

That is very much not the case, you've clearly never read that passage before
I am not surprised by your ignorance, you seem to enjoy it.

Deuteronomy 15 (KJV)
1 At the end of every seven years thou shalt make a release.
2 And this is the manner of the release: Every creditor that lendeth ought unto his neighbour shall release it; he shall not exact it of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the Lord's release.
3 Of a foreigner thou mayest exact it again: but that which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release;
4 Save when there shall be no poor among you; for the Lord shall greatly bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it:
5 Only if thou carefully hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all these commandments which I command thee this day.
6 For the Lord thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee.
7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
8 But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.
9 Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the Lord against thee, and it be sin unto thee.
10 Thou shalt surely give him, and thine heart shall not be grieved when thou givest unto him: because that for this thing the Lord thy God shall bless thee in all thy works, and in all that thou puttest thine hand unto.
11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.
12 And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee.


The New International Version decided to remove the confusion:

Deuteronomy 15
1. At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts.
2 This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel any loan they have made to a fellow Israelite. They shall not require payment from anyone among their own people, because the Lord’s time for canceling debts has been proclaimed.
3 You may require payment from a foreigner, but you must cancel any debt your fellow Israelite owes you.
4 However, there need be no poor people among you, for in the land the Lord your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you,
5 if only you fully obey the Lord your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today.
6 For the Lord your God will bless you as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over you.
7 If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them.
8 Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need.
9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin.
10 Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.
11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land.

 

[Resistor]

I’m not “shitting on“ anything chill out, I am talking about that scripture. Do you agree if the religion is ”do not kill, do not steal, do not lie” these are all physical things. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. Those are the laws to live in balance in the physical world. Certainly in deeper Judaism and Kabbalah they say “any wrong thought or fantasy is a lie”, “all anger is to kill”, which would be deeper than physicality. But that is the problem that was facing those people. Do you reach God by not killing? Or do you simply not transgress? Is the soul developed by not stealing? That is what that man was asking Jesus, because he didn’t feel like it was. So Jesus told him, give up everything in the world and follow me, my path. That is deeper. Not only does it fulfill the old law, because giving up everything you won’t steal, it also fulfills a transcendent law, the law of sacrifice, death of the self, living only in faith.

Every Single Jot and Tiddle of the Torah represents higher spiritual truths, nothing in it is at all arbitrary or superficial.

 

[lightseeker]

Every Single Jot and Tiddle of the Torah represents higher spiritual truths, nothing in it is at all arbitrary or superficial.

That is why none of it was abolished. Jesus didn’t change anything but indicated the deeper essence that IS there, but can go unseen, and reading the New Testament, it is clear that it was unseen. John 3 “you are a priest of Israel and do not understand these things?” that people were facing a dilemma where they had lost the deeper aspects of that teaching. Jesus came to give it to them, among other things. That example is a perfect picture of what that means.

 

[Resistor]

Deuteronomy 15 (KJV)
1 At the end of every seven years thou shalt make a release.
2 And this is the manner of the release: Every creditor that lendeth ought unto his neighbour shall release it; he shall not exact it of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the Lord's release.
3 Of a foreigner thou mayest exact it again: but that which is thine with thy brother thine hand shall release;
4 Save when there shall be no poor among you; for the Lord shall greatly bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it:
5 Only if thou carefully hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all these commandments which I command thee this day.
6 For the Lord thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee.
7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:
8 But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, in that which he wanteth.
9 Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the Lord against thee, and it be sin unto thee.
10 Thou shalt surely give him, and thine heart shall not be grieved when thou givest unto him: because that for this thing the Lord thy God shall bless thee in all thy works, and in all that thou puttest thine hand unto.
11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.
12 And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee.


The New International Version decided to remove the confusion:

Deuteronomy 15
1. At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts.
2 This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel any loan they have made to a fellow Israelite. They shall not require payment from anyone among their own people, because the Lord’s time for canceling debts has been proclaimed.
3 You may require payment from a foreigner, but you must cancel any debt your fellow Israelite owes you.
4 However, there need be no poor people among you, for in the land the Lord your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you,
5 if only you fully obey the Lord your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today.
6 For the Lord your God will bless you as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over you.
7 If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them.
8 Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need.
9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin.
10 Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to.
11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land.

Yes, now back up your claims please because you have not provided sufficient evidence. In the Hebrew it does not say "fellow Israelites" it says your "fellow brothers/companions".

You seem to have an obvious reading comprehension with paragraph breaks too. 1-6 is one commandment, 7-11 is another commandment, 12-18 is another commandment, etc. Geeze.

I have no idea why I bother talking to brick walls

 

[Resistor]

That is why none of it was abolished. Jesus didn’t change anything but indicated the deeper essence that IS there, but can go unseen, and reading the New Testament, it is clear that it was unseen. John 3 “you are a priest of Israel and do not understand these things?” that people were facing a dilemma where they had lost the deeper aspects of that teaching. Jesus came to give it to them, among other things. That example is a perfect picture of what that means.

Hence why in the Torah itself, God and Moses command many many many many times to observe with all of your heart.
Torah is not just rules, it is a deep relationship with God, when you break through the surface amazing things happen.
When you break through the surface you come to the kinds of realizations found in books like Proverbs, Sirach, Wisdom of Solomon, Isaiah, and in Jesus' exegetical teachings. All of these are a testament to the depth of the Torah, not to themselves isolated.

 

[Lyfe]

Keep lying to yourself and repeating what you've been told.



Nobody claims to be sinless, including Jesus.

Mate, all you are continuing to do here is strawman and berate the Torah with your foul mouth. Your views are so misinformed.
You repeat to me what I already know most Christians (via Paul's writings to gentiles) believe about the Torah, this is not what is being asked here. You can't even give internal proof that God gave us an impossible law to follow, on the contrary I've given you evidence this it's not the case.

And again, being imperfect and making mistakes does not equal the Torah being impossible to follow. Non-sequitor and strawman of what these ideas mean.
I repeat: DOES NOT EQUAL.

I used ONLY the Old Testament to prove to you that the nature of thoughts can be regarded as sin and breaking the law. This can easily be demonstrated and established by scriptural deduction! We are commanded to love God with all our heart, soul, and strength.

Deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

In the Old Testament its revealed the things that God hates, including thoughts of the heart.

Prov 6:16 These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him:
Prov 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Prov 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Prov 6:19 A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Exod 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's.

It has now been established ACCORDING to the OT that God hates the nature of certain thoughts. Coveting is evil according to God, pride, a heart that imagines and entertains wickedness, lying and deceit whether that is to a neighbor, yourself, or God it doesnt matter. Now what does it mean if we are found guilty of entertaining and harboring such thoughts contrary to God? To do so would be failing to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. This is the OLD TESTAMENT. If you are under the belief that you cant sin and break the law in your very thoughts and imaginations then you are in denial, because I showed you the thoughts and attitudes that God hates. If I entertain and am found guilty of such thoughts how can I love God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength? You fail to and in the process break the law...

So for you to continue you tell me you havent broke the law would mean that you have maintained a thought life that is blameless before the lord and upholds the spirit of loving him with all of your being.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Yes, now back up your claims please because you have not provided sufficient evidence. In the Hebrew it does not say "fellow Israelites" it says your "fellow brothers/companions".

You seem to have an obvious reading comprehension with paragraph breaks too. 1-6 is one commandment, 7-11 is another commandment, 12-18 is another commandment, etc. Geeze.

I have no idea why I bother talking to brick walls

Your behaviour is expected.

If there's no contrast between Israelites and non-Israelites, then there's no need for using brothers / neighbours on one hand and foreigners on the other.

But I knew what you were after only 5 of your posts. It's not hard to figure out when your criticism and ridicule is as one-dimensional as it is.

 

[Resistor]

I used ONLY the Old Testament to prove to you that the nature of thoughts can be regarded as sin and breaking the law. This can easily be demonstrated and established by scriptural deduction! We are commanded to love God with all our heart, soul, and strength.

Deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

In the Old Testament its revealed the things that God hates, including thoughts of the heart.

Prov 6:16 These six [things] doth the LORD hate: yea, seven [are] an abomination unto him:
Prov 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Prov 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Prov 6:19 A false witness [that] speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Exod 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's.

It has now been established ACCORDING to the OT that God hates the nature of certain thoughts. Coveting is evil according to God, pride, a heart that imagines and entertains wickedness, lying and deceit whether that is to a neighbor, yourself, or God it doesnt matter. Now what does it mean if we are found guilty of entertaining and harboring such thoughts contrary to God? To do so would be failing to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. This is the OLD TESTAMENT. If you are under the belief that you cant sin and break the law in your very thoughts and imaginations then you are in denial, because I showed you the thoughts and attitudes that God hates. If I entertain and am found guilty of such thoughts how can I love God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength? You fail to and in the process break the law...

So for you to continue you tell me you havent broke the law would mean that you have maintained a thought life that is blameless before the lord and upholds the spirit of loving him with all of your being.

Then read the following verses in Proverbs after it states that:

My son, keep your father’s commandment,
and forsake not your mother’s teaching.
Bind them upon your heart always;
tie them about your neck.
When you walk, they will lead you;
when you lie down, they will watch over you;
and when you awake, they will talk with you.
For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light,
and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life,

- Proverbs 6:20-23

Now put your passage in context.

 

[Resistor]

Your behaviour is expected.

If there's no contrast between Israelites and non-Israelites, then there's no need for using brothers / neighbours on one hand and foreigners on the other.

But I knew what you were after only 5 of your posts. It's not hard to figure out when your criticism and ridicule is as one-dimensional as it is.

I'm not too bothered about what a fascist thinks of me, very honestly. I haven't found most of what you've ever said to be of much merit, you're stuck in a very small world without a even a window.

 

[lightseeker]

Hence why in the Torah itself, God and Moses command many many many many times to observe with all of your heart.
Torah is not just rules, it is a deep relationship with God, when you break through the surface amazing things happen.
When you break through the surface you come to the kinds of realizations found in books like Proverbs, Sirach, Wisdom of Solomon, Isaiah, and in Jesus' exegetical teachings. All of these are a testament to the depth of the Torah, not to themselves isolated.

I don’t deny that. truth is truth, God is God. Another mission Jesus accomplished was giving the truth and the way to follow it in incredibly simple words, basically Matthew 5-7 contains it entirely, or in John 12 after Lazarus was raised for the rest of the book. It is truly a divine feat, to summarize all the laws and show how one can embody them in the deepest aspect of ones being in a few simple pages. That’s what Christ accomplished. It doesn’t mean it wasn’t done in the Torah as well, but it is very complicated there and wasn’t going to be transferred to the entire earth for people to understand the one God.

 

[Lyfe]

Then read the following verses in Proverbs after it states that:

My son, keep your father’s commandment,
and forsake not your mother’s teaching.
Bind them upon your heart always;
tie them about your neck.
When you walk, they will lead you;
when you lie down, they will watch over you;
and when you awake, they will talk with you.
For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light,
and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life,

- Proverbs 6:20-23

Now put your passage in context.

This makes no sense. How does that disprove anything I said?

Do you still affirm that you have loved God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength these past 2 days, even in your thought life?

 

[Artful Revealer]

I'm not too bothered about what a fascist thinks of me, very honestly. I haven't found most of what you've ever said to be of much merit, you're stuck in a very small world without a even a window.

Ah, I'm a fascist now, because ... ?

 

[Resistor]

This makes no sense. How does that disprove anything I said?

Do you still affirm that you have loved God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength these past 2 days, even in your thought life?

I would ask you the same thing.

You have to work at your heart, it doesn't come instantly for anybody. Torah is relationship with God. I try my best to love God with all my heart, yes. Why wouldn't I? God is the greatest, the most high, the most wise and best judge. God knows my heart and were I want to be. God knows that I observe Torah, the rest is the spiritual journey.

 

[Resistor]

Ah, I'm a fascist now, because ... ?

We've already been over this in your political threads.

 

[Resistor]

I don’t deny that. truth is truth, God is God. Another mission Jesus accomplished was giving the truth and the way to follow it in incredibly simple words, basically Matthew 5-7 contains it entirely, or in John 12 after Lazarus was raised for the rest of the book. It is truly a divine feat, to summarize all the laws and show how one can embody them in the deepest aspect of ones being in a few simple pages. That’s what Christ accomplished. It doesn’t mean it wasn’t done in the Torah as well, but it is very complicated there and wasn’t going to be transferred to the entire earth for people to understand the one God.

Yes, I agree, that's a fair enough comment.

 

[Artful Revealer]

We've already been over this in your political threads.

I have never spoken about politics with you, unless you are someone who's not supposed to be here.

 

[Lyfe]

I would ask you the same thing.

You have to work at your heart, it doesn't come instantly for anybody. Torah is relationship with God. I try my best to love God with all my heart, yes. Why wouldn't I? God is the greatest, the most high, the most wise and best judge. God knows my heart and were I want to be. God knows that I observe Torah, the rest is the spiritual journey.

I will be the first to tell you that I sin against God in my thoughts and attitudes at times. Lately I have done it multiple times a day... I have not once claimed to be without sin nor have I ever claimed to keep the law.

 

[lightseeker]

Yes, I agree, that's a fair enough comment.

Now would you agree with the example I gave about the practice of the law and it’s transcendant aspect in the previous post? Let me try to lay it out.

Given that in the First Law of Moses, to love God with all ones heart, mind, strength, the entirety of the law is contained. if one loves God with all aspects of their Being, breaking the law is impossible, yes? It is complete. So there is divinity in that law. Jesus elaborated on that law as far as I am concerned. He gave the example of one living that law to the absolute fullest.

When someone asks him, teacher I do not steal, lie, kill, what am I lacking? Jesus says give up everything and follow me. You need to sacrifice everything for God.
does one reach God from not stealing? No one only does not transgress, which was the dilemma that soul was in.

That is the divinity of Jesus teachings. They are simpler teachings, but more difficult. Is it easier to not steal, or to give up everything one has? You can see the difference. There is no law in Moses teachings “give up everything one has” because it is not a law, it transcends nature, life, matter, everything, so that only the soul and its development in God is taken into account. That is not a law. People can live a decent and righteous life not stealing, killing, but to transcend everything and go beyond, that is a different law. I’m not saying that doesn’t exist in Moses teachings, it does, but who practices or teaches it? Perhaps some do. Jesus definitely did, in clear simple terms and examples, that’s all I’m saying.

 

[seekinheart]

I have never spoken about politics with you, unless you are someone who's not supposed to be here.

pretty sure thats infinityloop