"The muslim trinity"

[Resistor]

This thread is getting tiring and boring. Are there any other religions on this forum or is it just Christians and Muslims?

 

[pescatarian09]

But ... why?

1. If your words don't become incarnate, I wouldn't know you. Do you agree?

2. If God's Word doesn't become incarnate, we wouldn't know God. Do you agree?

3. Your words exist (in your mind) before they become incarnate, ie. made perceivable by others. Do you agree?

4. Jesus is the revealed Word of God in Christianity, just as the Quran is the revealed Word of God in Islam. Do you agree?

5. But the Word of God exists (in God's Mind) prior to being revealed. ie. made perceivable by us, as you should've agreed with statement 2. Do you agree?

6. Therefore, just because the incarnate Word dies, ie. the man Jesus dies or the Quran is burnt, it doesn't mean the pre-incarnate word is dead. Do you agree?

If you agree with all these statements, you agree with the gist of what I've been saying.

What would follow on from that, if you were to accept these premises? That God's word being uncreated is analogous to Jesus being God/son of God?

 

[Artful Revealer]

What would follow on from that, if you were to accept these premises? That God's word being uncreated is analogous to Jesus being God/son of God?

The Father, the Holy Spirit and the Son exist prior to creation. That means they are imperatively coeternal, for if the Son wasn't always the Son, there would be a time when the Father wouldn't be a father, which is a paradox because they exist outside of time.

Jesus is God addressing His creation. It's the Son's or the Word's incarnation so God's Word becomes perceivable to us, so we can get to know Him. (as per premise 2)

 

[Resistor]

That means they are imperatively coeternal, for if the Son wasn't always the Son, there would be a time when the Father wouldn't be a father, which is a paradox because they exist outside of time.

And hence the reason why they invented the Trinity.

In truth your "paradox" is so easily resolved. Jesus wasn't literally the "son" anymore than Jews are "literally" the sons of God (Exodus 4:22).

The man-worship fetish of Christianity will never be relatable to me on any spiritual level. In your head you "need" Jesus to literally be the son of God and God itself, for no meaningful reason. (and no, the whole "sacrifice for your sins" is far from meaningful, far from purposeful either, even if we agree that you're correct).

 

[Lyfe]

And hence the reason why they invented the Trinity.

In truth your "paradox" is so easily resolved. Jesus wasn't literally the "son" anymore than Jews are "literally" the sons of God (Exodus 4:22).

The man-worship fetish of Christianity will never be relatable to me on any spiritual level. In your head you "need" Jesus to literally be the son of God and God itself, for no meaningful reason. (and no, the whole "sacrifice for your sins" is far from meaningful, far from purposeful either, even if we agree that you're correct).

The need for a savior makes perfect sense if you understand that God is perfectly holy and just. He is perfectly moral and is unable to acquit your sin, because that would be a perversion of justice and contrary to who God is. You have violated his laws and unable to escape eventual judgment and sentencing.

 

[Resistor]

The need for a savior makes perfect sense if you understand that God is perfectly holy and just. He is perfectly moral and is unable to acquit your sin, because that would be a perversion of justice and contrary to who God is. You have violated his laws and unable to escape eventual judgment and sentencing.

Hence the antithesis of what you say. If God is perfectly holy and just, then sacrifice becomes an incoherent 'pagan' idea (in the Abrahamic view) because God is holy and just; making the concept of sacrifice inapplicable.

Your comment on judgment is irrelevant, as Christian theology still includes the concept of judgement, heaven and hell.

 

[Lyfe]

Hence the antithesis of what you say. If God is perfectly holy and just, then sacrifice becomes an incoherent 'pagan' idea (in the Abrahamic view) because God is holy and just; making the concept of sacrifice inapplicable.

Your comment on judgment is irrelevant, as Christian theology still includes the concept of judgement, heaven and hell.

It doesn't have to make sense to you and whether or not you find it feasible is whats really irrelevant. God doesn't answer to you... He doesn't mold creation to adhere to what does and doesnt makes sense to your finite mind. You don't have any say. You dont have any say in regards to your birth and what color the sky is. You have no power to alter these realities. You have no say whether or not stars or planets exist. What say do you think you have toward he who made these things?

Go ahead and fight these realities, its quite fitting considering your name(Resistor).

 

[Resistor]

It doesn't have to make sense to you and whether or not you find it feasible is whats really irrelevant. God doesn't answer to you... He doesn't mold creation to adhere to what does and doesnt makes sense to your finite mind. You don't have any say. You dont have any say in regards to your birth and what color the sky is. You have no power to alter these realities. You have no say whether or not stars or planets exist. What say do you think you have toward he who made these things?

Go ahead and fight these realities, its quite fitting considering your name(Resistor).

Going agnostic does everything but help your case. Making extreme claims about the nature of God (incarnation, sacrifice, etc) does not gel well with agnosticism ('we can't know', 'how could we claim to know?'). Pick one or the other.
Either you know what God is (trinity, incarnation/Jesus, etc) or you don't ("He doesn't mold creation to adhere to what does and doesnt makes sense to your finite mind").
Make your choice.

Go ahead and fight these realities, its quite fitting considering your name(Resistor).

Yes that was intentional, resister against lies and deception. It's a nice pun.

 

[Lyfe]

God is fundamentally above His creation. He is not like anything in creation. Bearing offspring is fundamentally a human quality. God needn't take a son for His word to be perceivable to man. The messengers that bore God's revelation made God's existence known to their respective peoples in a personable enough way, without the need for them being God's progeny. God is far removed from what humans attribute to Him. Every individual can come to know God, without there being a son of God or any mediator, because it is God who created them. It is the intrinsic, interminable relationship between the Creator and the created being. It is our very purpose, imprinted on our souls. For God to take a son would be to assume that man can only come to know God if God manifested Himself in flesh and blood. But God is perceivable, and can be known, without direct, physical manifestation. That is why God is the only deity worthy of worship, and why we ought to submit to His will. Of course you may believe different. But that's your prerogative. In the end God triumphs over all.

Does the Quaran teach that Muslims are servants of God or children of God? What most accurately depicts the relation?

If you consider the dynamic that naturally exists between people in relationships and in families you actually begin to learn allot about the sort of relation that God had intended with man. In contemplating this is it really so hard to believe that God would come down as the son in this format to reveal himself to his creation? This doesn't diminish Gods divinity. If anything it suggests that the dynamic that exists between individuals in families is a natural predisposition and reflection of Gods purposes for us. It shows how our desire for intimacy with others is a reflection of Gods desire to be intimate with us. God desires a family or the adoption of his creation as sons or daughters. That much is seen in the innate desire we have for family and relationships. Why wouldnt God come down as the son in human form then in considering these things? To imply he wouldn't could be seen as an effort to diminish the love of God. Its a failure to grasp it....

What does it say about Allah that he would not come down to minister to his creation, but the Christian God would? What does it say when Muslims can only ever be servants to Allah, yet the Christian God offers to adopt and make anyone a son or daughter? God coming in the flesh is not an act of weakness. Its a testament to Gods love and the proof of his genuine love for his creation. God is God, but he also relates to us in a degree, because we are made in his image... God coming in the flesh is a testament of his relatable disposition toward us as his creation(with desires for intimacy) made in his image

Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phil 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phil 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phil 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Is Allah willing to coming down and bare the reproach of his creation? Does Allah want to make you a son or daughter, or are you simply referred to as a mere servant in your relation to him? Would Allah hang on a cross for your sin so he can legally dismiss your transgressions before him? Does Allah offer to come in and dwell within you through his spirit? I cant answer your questions for you, but my God came down and desired to relate to me. If I was given a list of promises and acts between Allah and the Christian God I would conclude that the Christian God is far more relatable to me as a human being and loves me far more than Allah ever could...

 

[Resistor]

I would conclude that the Christian God is far more relatable to me as a human being and loves me far more than God ever could...

Then you should definitely explore Hinduism, Hellenism, Norse Paganism, even Celtic Paganism - because they're all right up your alley.

 

[Lyfe]

Then you should definitely explore Hinduism, Hellenism, Norse Paganism, even Celtic Paganism - because they're all right up your alley.

Paganism is the worship and doctrine of lesser gods i.e fallen angels that rebelled against God. They interfaced with mankind to create their own constructs of divinity and dogma.

 

[Resistor]

What does it say about God that he would not come down to minister to his creation, but the Christian God would?

That is very antithetical to what God is - by definition.

What does it say when Muslims can only ever be servants to Allah, yet the Christian God offers to adopt and make anyone a son or daughter?

The Qur'an says:

"And We have already created man and know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than [his] jugular vein."
- Surah 50:16

There is also the Islamic saying that "God is closer to you than your own self is".

God coming in the flesh is not an act of weakness.

Yes it is, it's pathetic. The only role it serves is proselytizing through your emotions, everything else about it is silly and childish.

Its a testament to Gods love and the proof of his genuine love for his creation.

Yet doesn't God already through Creation/the universe existing? isn't that enough love for you? you seem very selfish, driven by the ego and carnal desires.

 

[Resistor]

Paganism is the worship and doctrine of lesser gods i.e fallen angels that rebelled against God. They interfaced with mankind to create their own constructs of divinity and dogma.

No, Paganism is the worship of anthropomorphic personal deities, often many at the same time. If you're so attracted to "man in the image of God", then you will LOVE Pagan pantheons which are replete with it, and predating Christianity by millennia.
Many Exchristians often do become Pagans because of how much the "personal deity" notion influenced them in their time as Christians.

All you amount to is wanting to worship 'super-people'. Whether it be Jesus, Thor or Ishtar.

 

[Lyfe]

You resist the concept of a God of love that relates and sympathizes with his creation and that would come down from heaven in the form of man. You want a God that appeases to your reason and logic. You want a God that will leave you empty so emptiness is what you shall have....

 

[pescatarian09]

God isn't unloving. He is merciful, loving, generous, forgiving, compassionate. The Quran actually says:
We have not revealed unto thee (Muhammad) this Qur'an that thou shouldst be distressed.
(20:2)
God also says:
Whoever draws close to me by the length of a hand, I will draw close to him by the length of an arm. Whoever draws close to me the by length of an arm, I will draw close to him by the length of a fathom. Whoever comes to me walking, I will come to him running. Whoever meets me with enough sins to fill the earth, not associating any idols with me, I will meet him with as much forgiveness.
(Sahih Muslim 2687)

 

[Resistor]

You resist the concept of a God of love

Such an ignorant comment.

If you're talking about me, I don't give God such attributes at all (whether positive or negative).

If you're talking about Islam, God's compassion and mercy are repeated all throughout the Qur'an.

Plead with your Lord for forgiveness, then turn to Him penitently. My Lord is indeed all-merciful, all-loving.
- Surah 11:90

It is indeed He who originates and brings back again, and He is the All-forgiving, the All-loving.
- Surah 85:13-14

The two most definitive terms used to refer to God in the Qur'an are Compassionate and Merciful. What more could you ask for?

and that would come down from heaven in the form of man.

Yes you're very correct about that one. Such a silly, childish idea has no place in reality nor spirituality.

 

[Resistor]

You resist the concept of a God of love

And even you believe that God's "love" is very limited, hence https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/hell-bible-verses/
So stop lying.

 

[pescatarian09]

You resist the concept of a God of love that relates and sympathizes with his creation

A God of love is a strange conception. God is holy, as you say, and represents the highest virtues. But love is not the highest virtue. Truth is the highest virtue. God would not love a person who speaks lies and acts abhorrently towards others.

 

[Resistor]

A God of love is a strange conception. God is holy, as you say, and represents the highest virtues. But love is not the highest virtue. Truth is the highest virtue. God would not love a person who speaks lies and acts abhorrently towards others.

Yes, the only way that the theological belief in a "God is love" could work is if someone was a total universalist, probably one that didn't believe in a heaven or hell.

At that, love itself is rather a vague idea that we as humans don't even get because it's rather many different emotions and attractions of different kinds all put under one word.
Love in the sexual sense can be found among many pagan deities, both gods and godesses.

Love of the sentimental kind of way that Christians describe is little other than what is in their own heads but not what the Bible itself teaches (1 John 4:8 is only one out of context verse).

 

[Lyfe]

A God of love is a strange conception. God is holy, as you say, and represents the highest virtues. But love is not the highest virtue. Truth is the highest virtue. God would not love a person who speaks lies and acts abhorrently towards others.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Matt 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Matt 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Matt 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The law has shutup the whole world in sin and determined that all are abhorrent and deceitful in light of Gods holiness. There is not one who is not guilty before God of some form of wickedness. When God looks into the human heart many vile offences are laid out before him.... Pride, deceit, envy, foolishness, malice, hatred, lust, and etc... We usually reserve such words and judgments for those who's evils stick out like sore thumbs, yet the same condemnation resides upon everyone who's sins haven't been blotted out by the blood of Jesus.