Lol at you thinking what you have today is the Gospel and or Torah. Where does it say in the Quran that what the Christians read today is the Gospel of Jesus and Torah?
Barriers between you and God?
- Thread starter Infinityloop
- Start date
Infinityloop
Star
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2019
- Messages
- 2,622
Well I don't really relate to your statement much at all. God is nothing like us, God is God.
I know though that what you say about 'fashioning idols' has a lot to do with the human need to humanize God into being more recognizable - which is a psychological and emotional issue in human nature as far as I'm concerned.
However doing so will always remain idolatry, the defacto is that God is nothing like it's creation. God's difference is what makes it God but it's ultimateness is what makes it inseparable through it's "love" (I say this in quotation marks because it is a word often misinterpreted).
Just reading the book of Isaiah before and I noticed that indeed it does affirm the Tawhid of Islam quite a lot, which really goes to show that Judaism for the most part have definitely had the right idea about their text (Isaiah). Here are a few verses:
For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens, he is God!, who formed the earth and made it, he established it;
he did not create it a chaos, he formed it to be inhabited! “I am the Lord, and there is no other (Isaiah 45:18)
“Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.’ (Isaiah 45:22)
To whom can you compare Me Or declare Me similar? To whom can you liken Me, So that we seem comparable? (Isaiah 46:5)
Bear in mind what happened of old; For I am God, and there is none else, I am divine, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah 46:9)
For the sake of My name I control My wrath; To My own glory, I am patient with you, And I will not destroy you. See, I refine you, but not as silver; I test you in the furnace of affliction. For My sake, My own sake, do I act— Lest [My name] be dishonored! I will not give My glory to another. Listen to Me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am He—I am the first, And I am the last as well. My own hand founded the earth, My right hand spread out the skies. I call unto them, let them stand up. (Isaiah 48:9-13)
This does remain a subject that the "Old Testament" (Tanakh) is very consistent on. I personally find it inconcievable that God, with sending numerous Prophets, that the entire message God keeps sending would suddenly completely do a 180°.
Yes and Christianity is a religion that claims to emphasize the concept of "personal relationship" (particularly Protestant forms moreso than Catholic and Orthodox) which makes it inevitably an inconsistent religion as far as the "Abrahamic tradition" is concerned.
In both Judaism and Islam, God is the most personal thing there is, even more personal than us. This is through the paradox (not contradiction) of God being inherently impersonal.
Also the concept of attaching the term "Person" to God (via trinity doctrine) is also an inconsistency unique to Christianity, such a concept only gets disdain from the Torah and Qur'an. While Jesus did teach of a "father" I don't believe it is rational to take his term literally, especially in light of the Old Testament.
Just to make things clear, as far as Judaism and Islam are concerned, a theophany isn't God itself but is a self-disclosure from God. This is a point that is contemplated in the Nevi'im, and in the Mishna and Midrash. This is a point that Islam is also very directly unanimous about.
I will also ask, has Christianity in your eyes, actually changed this apparent dilemma? if not, maybe the problem is being seen from the wrong angle.
Well Prophets are few and far between but the essence of revelation via scripture, practice and Sunnah are supposed to achieve this as far as possible. Same goes with Jewish practice, we are supposed to use these systems to get close to God. Not through attachment but through the opposite; giving our entire being to God, not holding onto anything except God etc.
The thing is that mainstream Christianity doesn't even provide any framework for comprehending what I just said. From Adam to Abraham to Moses to Jesus to Muhammad, God revealed the same doctrine and same [skeleton] system of knowing God. The problem is that few people who attach themselves to religion have any actual spiritual inclination. On one hand there are those that are blinded by the outward shapes of ritual practice (aka, treating that superficially) and on the other hand there are the idolaters who worship belief-itself as the ultimate achievement of all human existence (I pick on Protestants with their Sola fide for this because they are the most pervasive and obnoxious example) therefore completely alienating themselves from knowledge and experience of God.
The remaining few are those who are really there to know and experience God, those who seek God with all their heart and mind, those who give their entire lives to the pursuit. And no it doesn't explicitly mean becoming a monk and living very far from population (to places with only like ten people around not talking all day) but it does often include them though as they have the same intentions.
For you, I would start with the statement of Jesus according to Luke 17:21, that "The kingdom of heaven is within you". These words have every single thing to do with the Torah and the Qur'an, they are words of true wisdom.
Last edited:
Great explanation. Taken at face-value the dogma of Luther and Calvin, such as "faith alone", can lead to deception. The Protestant declarations were crafted to excuse their break from the Orthodox/Roman Church, but by overemphasizing the words of Paul they painted a skewed version of the teachings of Jesus and Abrahamic culture in general. Faith isn't blind. Through reality- our works, senses, logical mind, emotions, consciousness... along WITH our theology can authentic spiritual strength be nourished.
I see some who are defensive, trying to deflect from the subject of atonement in Christianity. IMO many Christians come across as cognitively/spiritually trapped by the confusing, almost random assemblage of the New Testament (which was then mixed with the theology of the Hellenic Church fathers). Common-folk can recite the phrases of 1st century Jews and 5th century Christian theologians, but they don't have the prerequisite background to make any real sense of it. The poetic, inspired verses of the ancient world are taken literally by base people that honestly are not worthy to teach about them.
Atonement theory is a hot mess. So much of Christian theology is a contradiction within itself. The multitude of sects before the 4th century didn't agree on anything. The New Testament is full of competing Christologies. First Jesus was viewed as the Messiah, after that as Christ. Some said Jesus was born human and "adopted" at his baptism/resurrection, next he's the pre-existent Logos made flesh, then he's God who incarnated to sacrifice Himself! Which is it guys? lol. There's also multiple atonement theories, the main being ransom vs. substitution. If anyone claims to care a lick about Jesus they have to read the absurdities of Christology.
Popular Christianity exists pretty much as a barrier between the self and knowledge of the Supreme All. The religion's been reduced to worshiping Jesus and a God far away in the sky. For them there's nothing else to life than deifying Jesus. He died for our sins so basically we can be arrogant, lazy slobs. It's another contradiction because historically the followers of Jesus saw their whole clique as "Sons and Daughters of God". Just look at how removed North American society is from our shared vision of Heaven and the Kingdom of God. Massive dissonance. Most academics believe Jesus lived but it takes examining the accounts of Philo and other historians, the writings of the Essenes, contemporary Jewish writings of the 1st century BC, extra-biblical writings, especially other regional and Islamic records of Jesus' sayings to bring this blurry image into focus. Sorry but the fantastical 4 Gospels of the RCC alone don't cut it.
If God is a man then He is All. The One is the source of everything, known and unknown. Think about layers of the atmosphere, our air, water, the fauna, all living creatures in an ecosystem. Elements and the chemical process of fire... from the cellular level to molecular and atomic particles eternally vibrating. Scientists say what makes all this up is dark matter- beyond that they don't know. At it's source the physical world is made up of intention! Consider our sense of humor and sensitivity, our values of justice and fairness, kindness, thankfulness, and maybe best of all love... life is so mysterious and amazing there is no other conclusion than to be in awe.
The intent of religion is to awaken spiritual knowledge, this experience of gnosis/oneness. If the religion is failing we need to question where the barrier is.
Red Sky at Morning
Superstar
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2017
- Messages
- 14,673
@DavidSon
Just reflecting on your post above, I was thinking about the history of the church and about humans natural tendency to be reactive. Movements are not immune to the hegelian dialectic where great swings of view can take place in reaction to previously "debunked" ideas. Just look at the US political landscape...
Through two Obama presidencies, the nation took a hard swing to the left. Many Americans hated it and voted for the right leaning Trump. Even as he succeeds in expressing the ideology of the right he galvanises those who reject the hardness of right leaning policies to plot his overthrow and yearn for the globalist, "love wins" open borders era to return. Who is right? Is is possible that both extremes miss the mark?
In the same way, Catholicism had morphed Christianity over the centuries to a religion that emphasised works to a pathological degree, leading to all forms of penance, inquisitions, asceticism and foolishness. It was only a matter of time before somebody got hold of a Bible and read that the "just shall live by faith"...
If a truth overstated can become a falsehood, then it must also be true that the rediscovery of the balance can lead to some throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Look at some of the American church that has lost its sense of the value of an "active" faith and has stopped reaching out to the poor or those who have lost a theology of suffering through over-emphasis on doctrines of victory and blessing (yet the Lord himself talks about all these opposites).
...which brings me on to faith.
For a while I have been pondering on the fact that the one who said "let there be light" and calls believers the "light of the world" may have something to tell us through the nature of light itself. Faith and works are often presented as an insoluble paradox. In the same way, experiments have shown that light is both a wave and a particle:-
vigilantcitizenforums.com
This has played on my mind for a while because faith is described as a "mustard seed", the smallest of all seeds, yet its effects are proposed to have the power to throw mountains into the sea. Light behaves as a particle at it's transmission and reception, but it's very essence us to behave like a wave. Light can only behave as a wave because it is a particle, yet it can only be observed in action as it appears as a wave.
In the same way, I believe in saving faith that is expressed by good works. Behaving like a wave does not make light what it is, it has to be a particle first. In the same way, no Christian begins their journey (or ends it in the Father's arms) unless they gave payed heed to the exhortation "ye must be born again". On the other hand the genuinely born again person should show this by their actions. Without a wave pattern of light coming from their lives, doubt as to whether a mustard seed of faith was ever there must arise.
Paul and James were both right.
Just reflecting on your post above, I was thinking about the history of the church and about humans natural tendency to be reactive. Movements are not immune to the hegelian dialectic where great swings of view can take place in reaction to previously "debunked" ideas. Just look at the US political landscape...
Through two Obama presidencies, the nation took a hard swing to the left. Many Americans hated it and voted for the right leaning Trump. Even as he succeeds in expressing the ideology of the right he galvanises those who reject the hardness of right leaning policies to plot his overthrow and yearn for the globalist, "love wins" open borders era to return. Who is right? Is is possible that both extremes miss the mark?
In the same way, Catholicism had morphed Christianity over the centuries to a religion that emphasised works to a pathological degree, leading to all forms of penance, inquisitions, asceticism and foolishness. It was only a matter of time before somebody got hold of a Bible and read that the "just shall live by faith"...
If a truth overstated can become a falsehood, then it must also be true that the rediscovery of the balance can lead to some throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Look at some of the American church that has lost its sense of the value of an "active" faith and has stopped reaching out to the poor or those who have lost a theology of suffering through over-emphasis on doctrines of victory and blessing (yet the Lord himself talks about all these opposites).
...which brings me on to faith.
For a while I have been pondering on the fact that the one who said "let there be light" and calls believers the "light of the world" may have something to tell us through the nature of light itself. Faith and works are often presented as an insoluble paradox. In the same way, experiments have shown that light is both a wave and a particle:-
Musing on faith - wave or particle?
Scientists have often squabbled over whether light is a wave or a particle. Can it possibly be both? Can it be both at the same time? https://blog.anton-paar.com/what-is-light-a-particle-or-a-wave/ Does the nature of faith in the one who is the "Light of the World" have anything in common...
This has played on my mind for a while because faith is described as a "mustard seed", the smallest of all seeds, yet its effects are proposed to have the power to throw mountains into the sea. Light behaves as a particle at it's transmission and reception, but it's very essence us to behave like a wave. Light can only behave as a wave because it is a particle, yet it can only be observed in action as it appears as a wave.
In the same way, I believe in saving faith that is expressed by good works. Behaving like a wave does not make light what it is, it has to be a particle first. In the same way, no Christian begins their journey (or ends it in the Father's arms) unless they gave payed heed to the exhortation "ye must be born again". On the other hand the genuinely born again person should show this by their actions. Without a wave pattern of light coming from their lives, doubt as to whether a mustard seed of faith was ever there must arise.
Paul and James were both right.
Last edited:
Surah 3 3He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
Surah 6 115And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
The quran is crystal clear about allah revealing the torah and the gospel... and that none can change his words.
So for you to say that today the torah and the gospel are false... you reject what allah said in the quran.
And that's fine as also i reject what allah has to say about anything... but you can't do that if you're a muslim.
The Gospel that JESUS preached can't be changed. The Torah that Moses preached can't be changed. God is saying the Quran confirms what was before it. However, you have the NT not the Gospel of Jesus.
The torah that can't be changed and the gospel that can't be changed according to allah... is hidden away unchanged and replaced with changed forgeries according to kung twat fu.L0L
When you can't come up with proper arguments you start rambling like an idiot. When you're not drunk and can have a proper argument come back to me but I won't hold my breath seeing how you have a reading comprehension
Lisa
Superstar
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2017
- Messages
- 20,288
You can’t answer him?When you can't come up with proper arguments you start rambling like an idiot. When you're not drunk and can have a proper argument come back to me but I won't hold my breath seeing how you have a reading comprehension
Read what I said again but since you have a reading comprehension as well I won't be holding my breath. I answered him already. The NT is not the Gospel of Jesus.
Some of you on here really need to learn how to read. Stop trying to ask questions on a point or argument I have never made.
Lisa
Superstar
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2017
- Messages
- 20,288
Can the gospel..NT or the Torah be changed according to allah?
Why would i argue with you ?When you can't come up with proper arguments you start rambling like an idiot. When you're not drunk and can have a proper argument come back to me but I won't hold my breath seeing how you have a reading comprehension
You serve the devil.
Karlysymon
Superstar
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2017
- Messages
- 7,324
If that was all there was to it, then there was no need for the rituals of Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement. You have to account for it because your claims of us being able to atone for our own sins flies in the face of sanctuary rituals and I don’t think you even realize what you are saying…..the magnitude of breaking God’s laws. Please re-read Leviticus 16. Forgiveness and punishment of sin isn’t as simple as you put it. Yes, we repent and God forgives but the crime has to be paid for.
34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.
None of this was necessary if the children of Israel had atoned for their sins already through repentance.
There is barrier between man and God wrought by sin/rebellion. If he can’t have direct communication with his Maker, how can he mount a defense case for his transgression before his Maker? Transgression of the Law demanded the life of the transgressor, which is why the shedding of blood was instituted after the Fall. God wasn’t willing to destroy man because of his transgression, so he intervened and answered the claims of the Law.
With your argument, why don’t our justice systems mirror that of heaven, moreso the Islamic ones? Let us just forgive every murderer, rapist, etc…..let’s do away with prisons so that there is no punishment. We can just forgive like you claim God does but is that how justice really works? Justice demands that the crime committed be paid for. People scream for the death penalty. They demand the life of the transgressor in some form.
Man can’t see God and as such He can’t stand in His presence to defend himself. He needs an advocate, an intercessor because, again, before punishment is meted out, a fair trial precedes punishment. This is what the Day of Atonement was also about. Our crimes against God demand our very lives but we don’t die because Someone else has answered the claims of the Law on our lives.
I think it is also pointless to keep claiming (you are entitled to your opinion obviously) that Christianity is a false gospel and that it is steeped in idolatry. I will tell you this: it depends on how I formulate my prayers but I do pray to Jesus Christ and through His Name and my prayers do get answered. Iam confident that many Christians on here can testify to this in their own lives….if our gross and offensive idolatry was such an affront to God, why does heaven answer our prayers, moreso spiritual requests? God simply has to ignore our prayer requests until we “get it”….not to pray to Christ or through His name.
Heaven doesn’t seem to affirm or endorse your charges of idolatry. Our spiritual realities are a testament against your charge, both in the past, present (because I did pray through His Name this morning) and future. And it is what anchors me in this faith. You don’t have to take it from me, why don’t you do your own survey by finding 100 trinitarians in real life and asking them if their prayer requests to Christ and through His Name do get answered. If 90% or even 80% of them say “No, my prayers are never answered” then your charge will be justified.
Also, since Heaven doesn’t endorse or affirm your charge of idolatry, Heaven’s response in our lives is affirming the Christian sacred text as it, despite charges of corruption.
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14)
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14)
Ex-arianator4
Established
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2018
- Messages
- 131
Wow you think God easily forgives in the Torah? OT version of God is the most angry & jealous version. Yahweh literally demands sacrifices and the shedding of blood to forgive you.
The Torah doesn't show a very forgiving God (rather He punishes and condemns those that break his law).
Anyway I think your problem with Christianity is that you can't accept the fact that Jesus is The Way and you need Him to get to The Father.
However, an intermediate is necessary whether you like it or not. We are so sinful and lost & God The Father is so holy and perfect, there's no way you can approach Him directly without the help of an intermediary.
The Torah doesn't show a very forgiving God (rather He punishes and condemns those that break his law).
Anyway I think your problem with Christianity is that you can't accept the fact that Jesus is The Way and you need Him to get to The Father.
However, an intermediate is necessary whether you like it or not. We are so sinful and lost & God The Father is so holy and perfect, there's no way you can approach Him directly without the help of an intermediary.
Christian logic is confusing. The OT God is angry and jealous but yet human God Jesus is the way to the Father who is the same God which Christians claim to be wrathful and jealous.
Also, the bit about the intermediatery is going to be a huge no.
Infinityloop
Star
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2019
- Messages
- 2,622
Just stop to appreciate for a second how patient God is depicted in the Old Testament. While he destroyed a few civilizations, he at the same time kept giving humanity (and the Israelites) free "try again" second third fifth sixth seventh chances to get things right.
God actually settles for very little in the Old Testament when you pull it apart, all God asks again and again through the Old Testament doesn't change.
Think about this too, God is so caring in the old testament that he will accept the Israelites to continue the Pagan practice of animal sacrifice which they learned from Egypt, with the stipulation of them doing it for God and using strict procedure so that God would accept their chosen sacrifice as legitimate.
But nonetheless I find it funny that Christians such as yourself hold both such confused and dissonant views of God.
Infinityloop
Star
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2019
- Messages
- 2,622
Also, 1 Samuel 15:22-25
Also, Hosea 6:4-6
But Samuel replied:
“Does YHWH delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying YHWH?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of YHWH,
he has rejected you as king.”
Then Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned. I violated YHWH’s command and your instructions. I was afraid of the men and so I gave in to them. Now I beg you, forgive my sin and come back with me, so that I may worship YHWH.”
“Does YHWH delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying YHWH?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of YHWH,
he has rejected you as king.”
Then Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned. I violated YHWH’s command and your instructions. I was afraid of the men and so I gave in to them. Now I beg you, forgive my sin and come back with me, so that I may worship YHWH.”
Also, Hosea 6:4-6
“What can I do with you, Ephraim?
What can I do with you, Judah?
Your love is like the morning mist,
like the early dew that disappears.
Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets,
I killed you with the words of my mouth—
then my judgments go forth like the sun.
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
What can I do with you, Judah?
Your love is like the morning mist,
like the early dew that disappears.
Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets,
I killed you with the words of my mouth—
then my judgments go forth like the sun.
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
Red Sky at Morning
Superstar
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2017
- Messages
- 14,673
You go to quite an effort to prove a rather obvious point - God would rather have us obey than have to judge sin. Sin is serious business and it has to be dealt with. The problem is that we all do sin, even those who would rather believe we don't, and a holy God can either turn a blind eye and be accused of injustice or judge it. You might not like the Gospel, @Infinityloop but it is the way back to a restored relationship with the Father.
Infinityloop
Star
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2019
- Messages
- 2,622
Well actually, I had this to say about Yom Kippur right here:
"The very existence of Yom Kippur is what I call a nail in the coffin for the Jesus Question.
Jesus' death serves no theologically redeeming purposes. This is the Jewish way of reflecting on how HaShem actually is great, loving, forgiving and needs no greater sacrifice for humanity to have their salvation. HaShem has gifted and blessed humanity and (in the case of the specific Jewish observance) the Jewish people - even through our constant rebellion against HaShem and idolatry (Jesus) out of defiance of HaShem's forgiveness."
And I believe it's a very strong point. Nonetheless you state this in response to my mentioning about how God only requires repentance, when ironically Yom Kippur is solely about repentance, as well as closeness to God.
Here's the thing, Korban was never demanded of by God (aka, there is no "sacrifice to me or else!" in the Torah), nor does God ever say that he requires animal sacrifice to forgive sins. I think Christians tend to either ignorantly overlook this, or simply lie (and misrepresent) about it to make God seem tyrannical (which happens to be where Christians and Atheists share a middle-ground ironically enough).
The fact that the Israelites came out of Egypt should tell you enough - this was common place for them, they sacrificed animals even before they followed Moses. This is something they already willfully did.
What we see here in Exodus (only mentioned two or three times) and extensively in Leviticus is how to do it in a pure way which will please God. And there things like ritual purity become extremely important to Leviticus laws, because God only accepts sacrifice in those texts if they are done a specific way (which in Torah's logic differentiates it from pagan sacrifices).
God here is accommodating the prior-practices of the Israelites, pure and simple!
And I will try to strongly emphasize this to you: Nowhere in the Torah does it say that God requires animal sacrifice for repentance and forgiveness of sins, nowhere in the Torah does God say that he will not forgive someone if they don't sacrifice an animal; such a thing is absurd.
Are there any particular things in the Torah which you think validate your position?
Where exactly in Genesis do you get this idea?
Interestingly enough, the first case of offerings and sacrifices in the entire Tanakh - Cain's offering (Genesis 4). Was rejected by God, God wasn't interested. Don't you find this, fascinating?
God accepted Abel's offering of fruit and soil. Yet Cain brought something presumably akin to what the Israelites did more meticulously and professionally thousands of years later.
I find this thing very intriguing.
Then we have the first case of murder following (Cain killing Abel, spoiler alert
).As far as "mounting a case", this is where Christianity and the Torah (with Judaism too) completely part ways as the Torah doesn't teach such a thing. Torah teaches to follow God and gives examples of the colossal failures of those who don't follow God, showing the variety of human fallibility. The way you frame your question just isn't right to me.
I don't get what you're trying to say here. This is not what the Torah says. Many things are punishable by death according to the Torah, which I'm sure is a different kind of "reform-justice" you would be familiar with in Protestant Christianity.
What you say however still remains exactly the same in Christianity (of which many Christians happen to gloat about), don't accept Jesus as "lord and savior" so you end up in hellfire. Fundamentally, despite the idol of Jesus, the theology still has a similar concept of punishment which is extended into the afterlife.
So that remains an area where Christianity didn't improve from it's claimed 'fulfillment' whatsoever, only shifted the goalposts.
Yes but two things:
1. God in the Torah does not accept blood sacrifice to atone for the sins of many, in fact read Leviticus 16:21-22, in which shows what a proper scapegoat is.
He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.
2. God is opposed to human sacrifice - read Deuteronomy 12:30-31.
and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
1. God in the Torah does not accept blood sacrifice to atone for the sins of many, in fact read Leviticus 16:21-22, in which shows what a proper scapegoat is.
He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.
2. God is opposed to human sacrifice - read Deuteronomy 12:30-31.
and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.” You must not worship the Lord your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.
Both these things alone (let alone all the other verses that repeat the same sentiment) that show that the idea of Jesus dying for people's sins is against the Torah and is not accepted by God.
Also it will always remain an unanswered question, how someone can atone for someone else?
Such an idea is an absurdity to the Torah.
One thing I will say here though is that Jesus didn't teach Christianity, he taught Torah.
Christianity is very much the definition of Idolatry (golden calf), absolutely yes. There isn't much to change this when the Torah is very clear about this.
I think a large majority of Christianity is about explaining away inconsistencies and contradictions born from presumed-conclusions, rather than starting at the proper beginning point to reach a conclusion on any given topic.
I respect your opinion but I obviously completely disagree.
Infinityloop
Star
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2019
- Messages
- 2,622
Yes, this is all God really asks in the Torah.