144,000: Literal or symbolic?

[phipps]

Here is why you are confused about Justification and Sanctification. You believe one needed to be Justified AND Sanctified to make it. Wrong! The thief on the cross was NEVER sanctified but rather justified because he simply believe.
- King Saul is saved
- Judas was never justified/saved to begin with
I'm not going to reply to everything that you simply copy and paste, just send us the link where you copy it from.

You're the one that's confused but sadly you don't see it.

The situation of the thief on the cross was different. He was going to die, he didn't have time to go through the stages of the Christian journey that most of us have to. He was justified through faith, was repentant for his sins and knew Jesus was God and believed Him. That is the situation we are in we first accept Christ. If we die at that point like the thief on the cross, we'll be saved.

Its not like the thief could get off the cross to get baptised which the Bible is clear we have to be.

Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

John 3:5, "Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Jesus' words are too clear to be misunderstood. He says we all have to baptised or we won't make it to heaven. There are two absolute requirements in baptism. Every one of us must pass through these two experiences in order to be saved. We have to be born of the Spirit which is conversion and born of the water which is the outward physical sign that the change has taken place. Baptism is the sign of the death of our selfish, sinful nature. That old, worldly person is buried in the waters of baptism.

The thief on the cross had a conversion of the heart. He had no opportunity to be born of the water because he hanging on the cross. Had he been able to descend from that cross, he would have turned from his life of crime, made amends for all he had stolen, and walked in full conformity to truth he now understood. He would have started on the sanctification journey that most of us have to. But it was physically impossible for him to do any of those things, the obedient life of Jesus was imputed to him. That is why Jesus could accept him and give him such a glorious assurance of salvation.

Did Jesus do that only for him? No. I believe there are many people who've come to accept Christ just before they die over the years since creation. Jesus is our Lord and Saviour who knows us and our personal situations. He can read our hearts and knows who is genuine and who isn't. He knew the ma's situation too. W e will all be judged according to the choices we make, according to the light we have in whatever situations our lives were.

2. King Saul is not saved. Sadly this is one person where its clear he wasn't saved. He died after God stopped communicating with him that even the demon who appeared to him in the form of Samuel, knew his fate and told him he and his sons would die the next day and that's exactly what happened.

Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

1 Thessalonians 5:19-21, "Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good."

In Matthew 12:31-32, Jesus gives a very solemn warning about a specific kind of sin. He says, “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." God had taken away His Spirit from Saul because he had persistently stopped listening to God. The Bible warns us not to grieve the Holy spirit away because we can get to the point like Saul where God cuts off from us. When that happens, we are doomed to eternal damnation.

3. Judas was saved. The Bible tells us, "And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:24-25. The apostles came together to find out who would replace Judas Iscariot. The said Judas fell from transgression. Judas Iscariot couldn't do that if he was not previously in a saved condition. Judas began in the Lord but did not die in the Lord.

I can see why you believe a false doctrine about once saved always saved. You've misunderstood a lot from the Bible. Its all twisted.

And if I copy and paste the truth what is to you? Its the truth and your doctrine is false whether they are my words or not. The truth is the truth no matter how it is presented to you. Its a mixture of my words and other's words. You're so immature! This is a tactic used by another poster here to detract from the truth of God's Word. You can't change the truth whether you agree with it or not. Once saved always saved is not taught in the Bible and is therefore not of God. Bye.

 

[floss]

You're the one that's confused but sadly you don't see it.

The situation of the thief on the cross was different. He was going to die, he didn't have time to go through the stages of the Christian journey that most of us have to. He was justified through faith, was repentant for his sins and knew Jesus was God and believed Him. That is the situation we are in we first accept Christ. If we die at that point like the thief on the cross, we'll be saved.

Its not like the thief could get off the cross to get baptised which the Bible is clear we have to be.

Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

John 3:5, "Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Jesus' words are too clear to be misunderstood. He says we all have to baptised or we won't make it to heaven. There are two absolute requirements in baptism. Every one of us must pass through these two experiences in order to be saved. We have to be born of the Spirit which is conversion and born of the water which is the outward physical sign that the change has taken place. Baptism is the sign of the death of our selfish, sinful nature. That old, worldly person is buried in the waters of baptism.

The thief on the cross had a conversion of the heart. He had no opportunity to be born of the water because he hanging on the cross. Had he been able to descend from that cross, he would have turned from his life of crime, made amends for all he had stolen, and walked in full conformity to truth he now understood. He would have started on the sanctification journey that most of us have to. But it was physically impossible for him to do any of those things, the obedient life of Jesus was imputed to him. That is why Jesus could accept him and give him such a glorious assurance of salvation.

Did Jesus do that only for him? No. I believe there are many people who've come to accept Christ just before they die over the years since creation. Jesus is our Lord and Saviour who knows us and our personal situations. He can read our hearts and knows who is genuine and who isn't. He knew the ma's situation too. W e will all be judged according to the choices we make, according to the light we have in whatever situations our lives were.

2. King Saul is not saved. Sadly this is one person where its clear he wasn't saved. He died after God stopped communicating with him that even the demon who appeared to him in the form of Samuel, knew his fate and told him he and his sons would die the next day and that's exactly what happened.

Ephesians 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

1 Thessalonians 5:19-21, "Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good."

In Matthew 12:31-32, Jesus gives a very solemn warning about a specific kind of sin. He says, “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." God had taken away His Spirit from Saul because he had persistently stopped listening to God. The Bible warns us not to grieve the Holy spirit away because we can get to the point like Saul where God cuts off from us. When that happens, we are doomed to eternal damnation.

3. Judas was saved. The Bible tells us, "And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” Acts 1:24-25. The apostles came together to find out who would replace Judas Iscariot. The said Judas fell from transgression. Judas Iscariot couldn't do that if he was not previously in a saved condition. Judas began in the Lord but did not die in the Lord.

I can see why you believe a false doctrine about once saved always saved. You've misunderstood a lot from the Bible. Its all twisted.

And if I copy and paste the truth what is to you? Its the truth and your doctrine is false whether they are my words or not. The truth is the truth no matter how it is presented to you. Its a mixture of my words and other's words. You're so immature! This is a tactic used by another poster here to detract from the truth of God's Word. You can't change the truth whether you agree with it or not. Once saved always saved is not taught in the Bible and is therefore not of God. Bye.

Wrong, Judas was never save, he didn't lose his salvation. Prove that you aren't born again to understand this truth, nothing else you say or copy and paste matter from this point on. You're being led by the Antichrist spirit. Suit your self. My last response to you.

John 6
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (who could this be? hmmm)

Judas never believe from the beginning but he is saved...mmmmkay

 

[Douglas Summers]

3. I already told you you're leaning on your own understanding but you ignored it because you knew it was true, therefore I really don't have to answer you because it'll turn into a debate just as you're doing right now. If you understood with the Lords knowledge then you wouldn't even be doing this.

This is exactly what YOU are doing!

 

[Douglas Summers]

believe you can be saved even if you turn your back on him, if you're one of those then you, yourself will have to beware very cautiously.

No Born again believers that...Just as John denied Christ, but God saved Him. God chastises His sons....if you are not Chastised, you are none of His. You are preaching another Gospel...which really is not the Gospel. Christ plus works is not the Gospel....You must be born again.

 

[FaithAndStrength]

This is exactly what YOU are doing!

I don't debate. I answer with the word of God, not with my own opinions as that other guy was doing.

 

[FaithAndStrength]

No Born again believers that...Just as John denied Christ, but God saved Him. God chastises His sons....if you are not Chastised, you are none of His. You are preaching another Gospel...which really is not the Gospel. Christ plus works is not the Gospel....You must be born again.

I am in fact born again. Anyways, there's no point continuing this. You're left in Gods hands, I already tried to tell you the truth but you kept refusing, so that's that.

 

[Lisa]

so that's that.

There’s no such thing as that’s that with God...
With God all things are possible...or don’t you believe that?

 

[FaithAndStrength]

If you want to have credibility, here’s some advice: Don’t post in threads if you can’t follow through.

Explaining in point form why you aren’t answering my challenge to your statements about me, because you don’t have the time, makes it pretty clear that what you really don’t have is answers.

Just as a reminder, you told me that I cut and paste my posts, that I am merely offering my opinion on this subject, and that I don’t understand the verses in the Bible about it.

So far, you haven’t actually addressed any specific points I’ve made, but you’ve managed long posts on a subject — salvation — that is not even the focus of this thread.

For the love of the truth, I would think you’d be happy to show me where I’m wrong on this, but so far, you have just come up with reasons not to answer me. I think it’s because you really don’t know what you’re talking about, but here you have an opportunity to prove me wrong. Please take it.

Exactly- just as you said you're using YOUR OWN OPINION THUS LEANING ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING AND NOT GODS. I apparently do have the time since I'm still replying. Not answering you immediately doesn't mean I don't have the time, you're just getting impatient because you actually want to debate about this with me and sir, there ain't no way I'm about to continue this convo with you when you, yourself are using your own knowledge. I have not come up with reasons to not answer you. My first post in this thread was me adding on to anothers post about salvation and that's where you came in Currently, we're both just arguing which is pointless because AGAIN, you're using your own knowledge. So, that's the end of this.

 

[FaithAndStrength]

There’s no such thing as that’s that with God...
With God all things are possible...or don’t you believe that?

By "that's that" I meant I'm concluding the end of my discussion with the other person.

 

[Lisa]

By "that's that" I meant I'm concluding the end of my discussion with the other person.

I see. Do you feel that you don’t have enough knowledge or enough knowledge of scripture to debate with people...since you are only 16?

 

[Thunderian]

Exactly- just as you said you're using YOUR OWN OPINION THUS LEANING ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING AND NOT GODS. I apparently do have the time since I'm still replying. Not answering you immediately doesn't mean I don't have the time, you're just getting impatient because you actually want to debate about this with me and sir, there ain't no way I'm about to continue this convo with you when you, yourself are using your own knowledge. I have not come up with reasons to not answer you. My first post in this thread was me adding on to anothers post about salvation and that's where you came in Currently, we're both just arguing which is pointless because AGAIN, you're using your own knowledge. So, that's the end of this.

It’s always fun to see people like you work so hard to explain why they can’t back up their words with a solid argument. You keep saying I’m leaning on my own understanding, but so far you’ve quoted NO scripture, nor have you addressed any of the scripture I’ve used. How can anyone take you seriously?

 

[Thunderian]

And if I copy and paste the truth what is to you?

Because as soon as you run up against a solid argument, you fall apart. If you wrote your own posts, you’d be able to defend your position better. You might even realize how wrong you are.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I already tried to tell you the truth but you kept refusing, so that's that.

Until you can look in the mirror and see for yourself what ungodly creatures we are, you can not know God's grace. There is no grace in your posts, only a list of do's and don'ts. You do not join the Church, it is God who adds to the Church, and if Christ adds to His body....no one can take it away.

 

[FaithAndStrength]

I see. Do you feel that you don’t have enough knowledge or enough knowledge of scripture to debate with people...since you are only 16?

Lisa, stop. I'm actually 15 and you know that because I told you in our previous conversations and yes I am blessed with much knowledge by God. God gives people knowledge regardless of age during these times. He said may your kids prophesy and may your old men dream dreams and have visions and God has been training me ever since I was a child. Just the other day I seen a video of a 14 YEAR OLD preaching and I recognized the Holy Spirit in this boy. So yes I do in fact have knowledge.

Also don't turn the debate thing on me. I'm pretty sure you did that on purpose. I have discussions not debates because if something turns into a debate, I just leave. God said we must not debate and so I will follow that rule.

 

[FaithAndStrength]

Until you can look in the mirror and see for yourself what ungodly creatures we are, you can not know God's grace. There is no grace in your posts, only a list of do's and don'ts. You do not join the Church, it is God who adds to the Church, and if Christ adds to His body....no one can take it away.

I'll leave you in God's hands sir.

 

[FaithAndStrength]

It’s always fun to see people like you work so hard to explain why they can’t back up their words with a solid argument. You keep saying I’m leaning on my own understanding, but so far you’ve quoted NO scripture, nor have you addressed any of the scripture I’ve used. How can anyone take you seriously?

I have quoted scripture, actually. I just never I included the name of the scripture because I'm better at remembering the scripture rather than the actual name. Something I need to work on. I really don't need many to take me seriously, it's God they need to take seriously, not me. I'm a messenger of God's word and the one who's able to save you is Jesus Christ, not me. And another thing, do YOU want people to take you seriously or God? Because I don't have enough pride to demand people to listen to me, and that's good because again, they need to just listen to God's word alone. If you hear me talking about God's word, focus on the word, not my mouth. And that's what we are supposed to go by.

Also you said it's fun to see me like this? Well you're annoying me as much as I seem to be annoying you but I sure ain't amused by it.

 

[Lisa]

Lisa, stop. I'm actually 15 and you know that because I told you in our previous conversations and yes I am blessed with much knowledge by God. God gives people knowledge regardless of age during these times. He said may your kids prophesy and may your old men dream dreams and have visions and God has been training me ever since I was a child. Just the other day I seen a video of a 14 YEAR OLD preaching and I recognized the Holy Spirit in this boy. So yes I do in fact have knowledge.

Also don't turn the debate thing on me. I'm pretty sure you did that on purpose. I have discussions not debates because if something turns into a debate, I just leave. God said we must not debate and so I will follow that rule.

I thought you said you would be sixteen in a couple of months a while back? I honestly couldn’t remember if you were 15 or 16.

Where does God say we must not debate? Doesn’t iron sharpens iron...aren't we supposed to contend earnestly for the faith? Sounds like debate is good if ya ask me.

I think you’ve run out of things to say and can’t actually debate anything.

 

[Glad 2 know]

I thought you said you would be sixteen in a couple of months a while back? I honestly couldn’t remember if you were 15 or 16.

Where does God say we must not debate? Doesn’t iron sharpens iron...aren't we supposed to contend earnestly for the faith? Sounds like debate is good if ya ask me.

I think you’ve run out of things to say and can’t actually debate anything.

Lisa Dear have some mercy please! God wants us to reason, NOT contend Proverbs 16:6 B part
Matthew 10:14

 

[Lisa]

Lisa Dear have some mercy please! God wants us to reason, NOT contend Proverbs 16:6 B part
Matthew 10:14

Jude‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭
Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you CONTEND earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.​

‭‭

 

[Glad 2 know]

Lisa, stop. I'm actually 15 and you know that because I told you in our previous conversations and yes I am blessed with much knowledge by God. God gives people knowledge regardless of age during these times. He said may your kids prophesy and may your old men dream dreams and have visions and God has been training me ever since I was a child. Just the other day I seen a video of a 14 YEAR OLD preaching and I recognized the Holy Spirit in this boy. So yes I do in fact have knowledge.

Also don't turn the debate thing on me. I'm pretty sure you did that on purpose. I have discussions not debates because if something turns into a debate, I just leave. God said we must not debate and so I will follow that rule.

I commend you for defending your Faith at your age and having sufficient knowledge to take a stand <3
Your words and behavior are setting a good example even to those that are adults.
Keep it up young one.
Sorry there are adults that like to engage in negative debates just to prove someone wrong and don't mind getting mean, rude and sometimes nasty