Exchistians who converted to Hinduism

[Infinityloop]

Roman Catholicism has many traditions and beliefs that are rooted in paganism. Here are points of similarity between Catholicism and Hinduism:
https://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_pagan_Catholic_Hindu_religion

Some people argue the entire Abrahamic tradition (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) is just a rip off of the Babylonian/Sumerian/Mesopotamian pagan religions of the Middle East. Some people even believe Moses was Akhenaten. Of course Yahweh himself was apparently quite well know to the Sumerian pantheon historically, possibly even evolving out of the deities Enlil and Enki, according to many.
You never know which corner you'll end around by bringing out the Paganism card, considering historical interactions all three Abrahamic traditions are known to have.

https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/019513480X.001.0001/acprof-9780195134803
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/373161
https://valerietarico.com/2010/10/23/polytheism-and-human-sacrifice-in-early-israelite-religion/
https://brill.com/view/title/54576?lang=en
https://www.seiyaku.com/bible/is-the-bible-pagan.html
https://brill.com/view/title/13145
http://readingreligion.org/books/origins-yahwism
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323801276_The_Hebrew_Bible_and_Philosophy_of_Religion_SBL


Some things to read:

https://www.academia.edu/4155355/CREATION_ACCOUNTS_IN_THE_BIBLE_AND_ANCIENT_NEAR_EAST
https://www.scribd.com/doc/50651210/The-Myth-of-God-Incarnate
https://www.jstor.org/stable/41177403
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/361439/pdf
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0020964318785799a
http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1024&context=djrc
https://nr.ucpress.edu/content/8/2/121
https://www.amazon.com/Resurrecting-Jesus-Embodying-Spirit-Revolutionary/dp/1622037634
https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/6728089
http://www.academicroom.com/article/hebrew-bible,-old-testament,-and-historical-criticism:-jews-and-christians-biblical-studies


I could go on quite considerably more. Catholicism is the least of your problems if you choose to go down that route.

 

[Lisa]

Some people argue the entire Abrahamic tradition (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) is just a rip off of the Babylonian/Sumerian/Mesopotamian pagan religions of the Middle East. Some people even believe Moses was Akhenaten. Of course Yahweh himself was apparently quite well know to the Sumerian pantheon historically, possibly even evolving out of the deities Enlil and Enki, according to many.
You never know which corner you'll end around by bringing out the Paganism card, considering historical interactions all three Abrahamic traditions are known to have.

https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/019513480X.001.0001/acprof-9780195134803
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/373161
https://valerietarico.com/2010/10/23/polytheism-and-human-sacrifice-in-early-israelite-religion/
https://brill.com/view/title/54576?lang=en
https://www.seiyaku.com/bible/is-the-bible-pagan.html
https://brill.com/view/title/13145
http://readingreligion.org/books/origins-yahwism
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323801276_The_Hebrew_Bible_and_Philosophy_of_Religion_SBL


Some things to read:

https://www.academia.edu/4155355/CREATION_ACCOUNTS_IN_THE_BIBLE_AND_ANCIENT_NEAR_EAST
https://www.scribd.com/doc/50651210/The-Myth-of-God-Incarnate
https://www.jstor.org/stable/41177403
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/361439/pdf
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0020964318785799a
http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1024&context=djrc
https://nr.ucpress.edu/content/8/2/121
https://www.amazon.com/Resurrecting-Jesus-Embodying-Spirit-Revolutionary/dp/1622037634
https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/6728089
http://www.academicroom.com/article/hebrew-bible,-old-testament,-and-historical-criticism:-jews-and-christians-biblical-studies


I could go on quite considerably more. Catholicism is the least of your problems if you choose to go down that route.

Islam isn’t an “abrahamic religion”. Ishmael was sent away and wasn’t the child of promise, that was Issac and the covenant is passed through Issac and Jacob and misses Ishmael, so he doesn’t even count in that. He has his own purpose which seems to be working out on the world stage as Ishmael was against every man and every man was against him...hmmm. And some say the Bible isn’t truth.

Yahweh and His chosen people were very well known as He and His people were often feared by other nations due to Yahweh’s power.

Ya, the Israelites were always getting caught up in their neighbors paganism and upsetting God with their harlots ways. That didn’t end up going very well for them either.

 

[Infinityloop]

Islam isn’t an “abrahamic religion”.

So you resort to just throwing insults?

Islam isn’t an “abrahamic religion”. Ishmael was sent away and wasn’t the child of promise, that was Issac and the covenant is passed through Issac and Jacob and misses Ishmael, so he doesn’t even count in that. He has his own purpose which seems to be working out on the world stage as Ishmael was against every man and every man was against him...hmmm. And some say the Bible isn’t truth.

Yahweh and His chosen people were very well known as He and His people were often feared by other nations due to Yahweh’s power.

Ya, the Israelites were always getting caught up in their neighbors paganism and upsetting God with their harlots ways. That didn’t end up going very well for them either.

Some people argue the entire Abrahamic tradition (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) is just a rip off of the Babylonian/Sumerian/Mesopotamian pagan religions of the Middle East. Some people even believe Moses was Akhenaten. Of course Yahweh himself was apparently quite well know to the Sumerian pantheon historically, possibly even evolving out of the deities Enlil and Enki, according to many.
You never know which corner you'll end around by bringing out the Paganism card, considering historical interactions all three Abrahamic traditions are known to have.

https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/019513480X.001.0001/acprof-9780195134803
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/373161
https://valerietarico.com/2010/10/23/polytheism-and-human-sacrifice-in-early-israelite-religion/
https://brill.com/view/title/54576?lang=en
https://www.seiyaku.com/bible/is-the-bible-pagan.html
https://brill.com/view/title/13145
http://readingreligion.org/books/origins-yahwism
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/323801276_The_Hebrew_Bible_and_Philosophy_of_Religion_SBL


Some things to read:

https://www.academia.edu/4155355/CREATION_ACCOUNTS_IN_THE_BIBLE_AND_ANCIENT_NEAR_EAST
https://www.scribd.com/doc/50651210/The-Myth-of-God-Incarnate
https://www.jstor.org/stable/41177403
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/361439/pdf
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0020964318785799a
http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1024&context=djrc
https://nr.ucpress.edu/content/8/2/121
https://www.amazon.com/Resurrecting-Jesus-Embodying-Spirit-Revolutionary/dp/1622037634
https://searchworks.stanford.edu/view/6728089
http://www.academicroom.com/article...iticism:-jews-and-christians-biblical-studies


I could go on quite considerably more. Catholicism is the least of your problems if you choose to go down that route.

 

[Lisa]

So you resort to just throwing insults?

Nope.

Genesis 17:18-21​

And Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!" But God said, "No, but Sarah your wife will bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him, and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.

Genesis‬ ‭21:9-12​

Now Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, mocking. Therefore she said to Abraham, “Drive out this maid and her son, for the son of this maid shall not be an heir with my son Isaac.” The matter distressed Abraham greatly because of his son. But God said to Abraham, “Do not be distressed because of the lad and your maid; whatever Sarah tells you, listen to her, for through Isaac your descendants shall be named.
‭‭‬ ‭
Though God said He would also make Ishmael a nation for Abraham’s sake..Ishmael is not part of the covenant between God and Abraham and Abraham’s descendants.

 

[Infinityloop]

Though God said He would also make Ishmael a nation for Abraham’s sake..Ishmael is not part of the covenant between God and Abraham and Abraham’s descendants.

Your approach is very incomplete and flawed.

By your logic Christianity isn't an Abrahamic religion either because Jesus wasn't born of the decedents of David (afterall, that is what the Moschiach IS prophesied to be). Therefore Jesus, having no clear relationship cannot be the Messiah and Christianity cannot be an Abrahamic religion. Therefore Judaism (by your logic) and Samaritanism are the only Abrahamic religions by your own admission.

 

[Lisa]

Your approach is very incomplete and flawed.

By your logic Christianity isn't an Abrahamic religion either because Jesus wasn't born of the decedents of David (afterall, that is what the Moschiach IS prophesied to be). Therefore Jesus, having no clear relationship cannot be the Messiah and Christianity cannot be an Abrahamic religion. Therefore Judaism (by your logic) and Samaritanism are the only Abrahamic religions by your own admission.

I don’t see how it’s flawed, clearly Ishmael/islam isn’t part of the covenant or acknowledged by God to be a part of it. Abraham thought Ishmael would be acknowledged but God said no, the child of promise, Isaac is the descendant.


You are wrong..

Matthew‬ ‭1:1-17‬ ‭​

The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham: Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers. Judah was the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez was the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram. Ram was the father of Amminadab, Amminadab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon. Salmon was the father of Boaz by Rahab, Boaz was the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse. Jesse was the father of David the king. D avid was the father of Solomon by Bathsheba who had been the wife of Uriah. Solomon was the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, and Abijah the father of Asa. Asa was the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzziah. Uzziah was the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezekiah. Hezekiah was the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amon, and Amon the father of Josiah. Josiah became the father of Jeconiah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon. After the deportation to Babylon: Jeconiah became the father of Shealtiel, and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel. Zerubbabel was the father of Abihud, Abihud the father of Eliakim, and Eliakim the father of Azor. Azor was the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud. Eliud was the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob. Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah. So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations; and from the deportation to Babylon to the Messiah, fourteen generations.
‭‭

 

[Infinityloop]

I don’t see how it’s flawed, clearly Ishmael/islam isn’t part of the covenant or acknowledged by God to be a part of it. Abraham thought Ishmael would be acknowledged but God said no, the child of promise, Isaac is the descendant.


You are wrong..

Matthew‬ ‭1:1-17‬ ‭​

The record of the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah, the son of David, the son of Abraham: Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers. Judah was the father of Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez was the father of Hezron, and Hezron the father of Ram. Ram was the father of Amminadab, Amminadab the father of Nahshon, and Nahshon the father of Salmon. Salmon was the father of Boaz by Rahab, Boaz was the father of Obed by Ruth, and Obed the father of Jesse. Jesse was the father of David the king. D avid was the father of Solomon by Bathsheba who had been the wife of Uriah. Solomon was the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, and Abijah the father of Asa. Asa was the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, and Joram the father of Uzziah. Uzziah was the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, and Ahaz the father of Hezekiah. Hezekiah was the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amon, and Amon the father of Josiah. Josiah became the father of Jeconiah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon. After the deportation to Babylon: Jeconiah became the father of Shealtiel, and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel. Zerubbabel was the father of Abihud, Abihud the father of Eliakim, and Eliakim the father of Azor. Azor was the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Achim, and Achim the father of Eliud. Eliud was the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, and Matthan the father of Jacob. Jacob was the father of Joseph the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called the Messiah. So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations; and from the deportation to Babylon to the Messiah, fourteen generations.
‭‭

Quoting that just creates more problems that you are going to be willing to answer.

Spoiler: (But for some amusement)

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus

Spoiler: (But for some amusement)

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies#Davidic_line_will_endure_forever
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus

 

[Robin]

Quoting that just creates more problems that you are going to be willing to answer.

Spoiler: (But for some amusement)

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus

Spoiler: (But for some amusement)

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies#Davidic_line_will_endure_forever

The ancient Hebrews never permitted the name of a woman to enter the genealogical tables, but inserted her husband as the son of him who was, in reality, but his father-in-law. Which means that even though there is no direct textual support to claim Luke's recording of Jesus' genealogy was through Mary, it doesn't automatically discount it either. As for the whole biological father refutation, it becomes a lot more interesting if you study the adoption practices of the time. Matthew's genealogy provides us with Christ's legal descent. The names show us how He fulfills the requirements as the rightful claimant to David's throne. Jesus, while not Joseph's actual son according to heredity, became the legal heir when Joseph married Mary and thus adopted Him. He also side-stepped the curse that passed to blood descendants of the first line and prevented them from becoming king.

 

[manama]

Unlike Islam, Christians are aware that sometimes people who have identified as Christians might depart from the faith and either become atheists or become involved with other religions*. Nonetheless, Jesus does not prescribe the death penalty for apostasy as is evidently both believed and applied by followers of Islam AND Hinduism.

*I personally can’t see how anyone who is truly born again would do this as the presence of the Holy Spirit, (who is present in the lives of genuine Christians) would not allow such people peace when doing this.

You can't be exactly parroting that after we have constantly answered you regarding that same topic. Come on red, there is a limit to how bad one's memory can be.

On that note, i am still waiting for my answer.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You can't be exactly parroting that after we have constantly answered you regarding that same topic. Come on red, there is a limit to how bad one's memory can be.

On that note, i am still waiting for my answer.

Perhaps the reports of treatment of Christian converts from these two religions are exaggerated or I don’t properly understand the original languages well enough to comprehend the apparently harsh words about converts?

As to the reply regarding Moses and Pharaoh, I know you are waiting @manama - I know what I want to say and I will try to convey it to you in as meaningful way as I can (still might take me a day or two to draft it out).

 

[Lisa]

Quoting that just creates more problems that you are going to be willing to answer.

Spoiler: (But for some amusement)

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus

Spoiler: (But for some amusement)

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies#Davidic_line_will_endure_forever

Either way...Jesus is still linked to David and Abraham.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I don't care for these kinds of threads but why not do one anyway? might be interesting:

Born again believers are already converted and regenerated by God. People who claim to be Christians and leave, were never born again. Christian in the unbiblical sense is just a word that anyone can call themselves in this day and age. Catholicism, LDS, WWCG, JW and many others that call themselves Christians do not fit the Biblical definition of a Christian. The religious are not usually Christians.

 

[Lisa]

Born again believers are already converted and regenerated by God. People who claim to be Christians and leave, were never born again. Christian in the unbiblical sense is just a word that anyone can call themselves in this day and age. Catholicism, LDS, WWCG, JW and many others that call themselves Christians do not fit the Biblical definition of a Christian. The religious are not usually Christians.

They could be, maybe they changed their mind or they fell away from the faith?

 

[Douglas Summers]

They could be, maybe they changed their mind or they fell away from the faith?

It does not happen that way to a born again believer Lisa, A believer may stumble, but he can never fall, He has a new permanent nature in Christ. Christ always has a hold of our hand. The religious are those who are self willed worshipers, Leaning upon their own understanding. Intruding self will into divine authority.

 

[Lisa]

It does not happen that way to a born again believer Lisa, A believer may stumble, but he can never fall,

Yes it actually can.

Matthew‬ ‭24:10‬ ‭
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

‭‭‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.​

 

[Douglas Summers]

Yes it actually can.

Matthew‬ ‭24:10‬ ‭​

At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.​

​

‭‭‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭​

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.​

That verse has nothing to do with the Church, it is during the Great tribulation. Here is what happens to the saints of the tribulation. All these are the beginning of sorrows, Then shall they deliver you (saints) up to be afflicted and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated of all nations for my names sake. (These saints did not fall away).and are mentioned in (Revelation 6:9-11). And verse 24:10 proper reading is:, "And Then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Once a man has heard the Gospel of God, he is not saved, He must repent and be regenerated by the Father. The whole world is full of these religious people that go to Church, but they do not have Christ. These are the people that the Scriptures warn in Chapter 2 of 2 Peter.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

That verse has nothing to do with the Church, it is during the Great tribulation. Here is what happens to the saints of the tribulation. All these are the beginning of sorrows, Then shall they deliver you (saints) up to be afflicted and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated of all nations for my names sake. (These saints did not fall away).and are mentioned in (Revelation 6:9-11). And verse 24:10 proper reading is:, "And Then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Once a man has heard the Gospel of God, he is not saved, He must repent and be regenerated by the Father. The whole world is full of these religious people that go to Church, but they do not have Christ. These are the people that the Scriptures warn in Chapter 2 of 2 Peter.

We live in times of deception - now, more than ever, we need to understand the gospel and present it clearly:-

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/a-different-gospel-a-different-spirit-and-a-different-jesus.6423/

 

[Lisa]

That verse has nothing to do with the Church, it is during the Great tribulation. Here is what happens to the saints of the tribulation. All these are the beginning of sorrows, Then shall they deliver you (saints) up to be afflicted and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated of all nations for my names sake. (These saints did not fall away).and are mentioned in (Revelation 6:9-11). And verse 24:10 proper reading is:, "And Then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Once a man has heard the Gospel of God, he is not saved, He must repent and be regenerated by the Father. The whole world is full of these religious people that go to Church, but they do not have Christ. These are the people that the Scriptures warn in Chapter 2 of 2 Peter.

I probably should have added the next verse as well...

Matthew‬ ‭24:10-11‬ ‭
At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.​

Which I do think goes well with..

‭‭‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.
​

There seems to be Christians that will fall away from the faith..the Sprit explicitly says that it will happen and then there will be Christians that will be martyrs for the faith. Though I think that the fallen Christians will have a hand in that...because they will hate one another and betray one another.

Hebrews also adds fuel to the fire...

Hebrews 6:4-8
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.​

Tell me Douglas...what is the faith of the people that Paul is talking about in 1 Timothy 4:? What faith is Jesus talking about in Matthew 10? Last question...who can be made partakers of the Holy Spirit? Can God give His Holy Spirit to just anyone or certain people? If you really look at these verses then you will have to deduce that Christians can fall away from the faith, and instead of blowing off these questions, I would like for you to answer them, thank you.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Which I do think goes well with..

‭‭‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4:1‬ ‭​

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons.​

​

There seems to be Christians that will fall away from the faith..the Sprit explicitly says that it will happen and then there will be Christians that will be martyrs for the faith. Though I think that the fallen Christians will have a hand in that...because they will hate one another and betray one another.

These are not born again believers. They are the religious, Void of the Spirit.....You must be born again.

 

[Lisa]

These are not born again believers. They are the religious, Void of the Spirit.....You must be born again.

So you won’t answer my questions...too hard? Both 1 Timothy and Hebrews 6 say they are believers, you are wrong and ignore the truth.