Seeking Allah, finding Jesus

[Red Sky at Morning]

The reality and reasons why someone of one faith might convert to another seems to be a popular theme on the Forum right now, with threads like “Ex-Christians who became Hindus” or “Ex-Christians who Became Buddhists” (I sense a series ;-)

What we believe and why we believe it are perhaps the most fundamental questions we should honestly be asking ourselves. In doing so, we learn a great deal about our own nature, find out something of logic and sometimes end up somewhere we did not expect, as in the case of Nabeel:-

 

[Infinityloop]

The reality and reasons why someone of one faith might convert to another seems to be a popular theme on the Forum right now, with threads like “Ex-Christians who became Hindus” or “Ex-Christians who Became Buddhists” (I sense a series ;-)

What we believe and why we believe it are perhaps the most fundamental questions we should honestly be asking ourselves. In doing so, we learn a great deal about our own nature, find out something of logic and sometimes end up somewhere we did not expect, as in the case of Nabeel:-

The problem here is your defensive resort to my threads is to just do exactly the same thing you always already to (Christian propaganda threads about people converting to Christianity).
Give it a rest Red, you're not choosing to learn anything.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The problem here is your defensive resort to my threads is to just do exactly the same thing you always already to (Christian propaganda threads about people converting to Christianity).
Give it a rest Red, you're not choosing to learn anything.

I don’t think you quite understand my intention. I can’t offer a great deal to threads on ex-Christians, though you may find some Buddhists or Hindus who have come from a Christian background might want to talk with you on the subject.

I am not drawn to Eastern religion as I have been aware of it’s messages for many years (both the pure Hindu perspective and the re-packaged “Esoteric New-Age” Aquarian variety.

I am still unsure what you actually believe or stand for as you have time for apparently contradictory religious positions. Is it the Hinduism, the Buddhism or Islam that you are really drawn to, or are you pursuing a more holistic “anything but Christianity” religion?

 

[Infinityloop]

I don’t think you quite understand my intention. I can’t offer a great deal to threads on ex-Christians, though you may find some Buddhists or Hindus who have come from a Christian background might want to talk with you on the subject.

No it's your emphasis on Christianity as the solution to other religions which you rehash quite often here.

I am not drawn to Eastern religion as I have been aware of it’s messages for many years

If this is truly the case, why do you avoid engaging discussion the various times I've asked you direct questions about various Eastern Religious doctrines/views/practices?

I am still unsure what you actually believe or stand for as you have time for apparently contradictory religious positions. Is it the Hinduism, the Buddhism or Islam that you are really drawn to, or are you pursuing a more holistic “anything but Christianity” religion?

I'm very strongly a Muslim in and out but I hold no dislike for any given religion, I don't think that a position that is defacto hostile or opposed to other religions on the basis of their forms and cultural structure as being good reason to take such a position.
Whether I like or hate another religion shouldn't cause you such strange suspicions as you allude to here. Both Buddhism and Hinduism have much use, particularly philosophically and practically. Examining things from a point of view which is distanced from the views you yourself is of great value if one understands their own reasoning to begin with to why they hold the views they identify themselves under.

 

[Wigi]

Something I think is quite blatant between most beliefs it's this :

People become buddhists because they think they can save themselves and achieve to become enlightened while seeking their own path.

People become hinduists because they seek mystic experience and think they can find 'gods' in everything. It also seems to be some sort of vegan spirituality that's why it's appealing to this type of person in the western world since it adds a spiritual motive for this lifestyle.

People become muslims because they want to practice religion. Most of the time, I've heard muslims saying we're not born sinful but we need good deeds for salvation but to do that you need to practice religion as it was revealed by Muhammad (follow all the precepts)

People become Catholics because they seek Mary or want to adhere to a culture.
Some practicing Catholics actually wants to seek a God of Love while they believe they can't find Him outside of the papacy.

Other people become christians because they find Jesus in the midst of trouble, during a dream while studying the Bible ect...

Without finding Jesus there is no way you could become a Christian because it won't make sense to your intellect since Jesus speaks mostly to your heart and convince yourself that you're a sinner who needs Him for your salvation.

 

[Infinityloop]

Something I think is quite blatant between most beliefs it's this :

People become buddhists because they think they can save themselves and achieve to become enlightened while seeking their own path.

"save themselves" (at least in a Christian understanding) is as far away from Buddhism as you could get. Buddhism is about the cessation of suffering (Dukkha) which is perceived to be the source of all that has fell (Pratītyasamutpāda) from the natural state of all (so-to-speak). Cessation of suffering is brought through examining the Five Aggregates (Skandha) and realizing the emptiness of all manifest phenomena, eventually realizing the illusion of the self, of which is one of the largest sources of suffering through identifying oneself to it as an existential phenomena. The end goal is called Nibbana (Nirvana by westerners), which is that original state of purity before Pratītyasamutpāda.

People become hinduists because they seek mystic experience and think they can find 'gods' in everything. It also seems to be some sort of vegan spirituality that's why it's appealing to this type of person in the western world since it adds a spiritual motive for this lifestyle.

People become Hindus (Hinduism is not even a religion btw, it's a descriptor of the equivalence of the phrase "Abrahamic Religion" as Hinduism is a group of religions that unify over central concepts and traditions that date back to the collection of texts known as "The Vedas") because it is a path that emphasizes understanding God through the subjective. It realizes that all forms are not representations of God but through forms we can come to bond with God. Hinduism caters to many contradicting beliefs because it doesn't see things hinging on such literalism, it sees the expression of truth as being of the same transcendent truth (which God is SUPPOSED to be in every religion any way). The end goal for most Hindus is to reach Moksha, which is their equivalent of Heaven. Heaven is reached through love of God, ultimately.

People become muslims because they want to practice religion. Most of the time, I've heard muslims saying we're not born sinful but we need good deeds for salvation but to do that you need to practice religion as it was revealed by Muhammad (follow all the precepts)

People become Muslims for the same reasons of Love for God. They see the light of God's Unity reflected through history and see Muhammad as the perfect capstone of the Prophetic tradition (starting with Adam but typified by Abraham). People become Muslims because complete submission, in love and purity, and moral conduct, to the Unity of God (as central importance to a persons entire life) is one of the most profound ways a person can live their life. Aside from this, many people (myself included) are very highly compelled by the Qur'an (in spite of having already explored many other religions prior to reading it). The end goal is Heaven, known by the word Jannah, which means paradise and/or "Garden".

People become Catholics because they seek Mary or want to adhere to a culture.
Some practicing Catholics actually wants to seek a God of Love while they believe they can't find Him outside of the papacy.

So you don't think people convert to the Catholic form of Christianity because they love Jesus and see Catholicism as the best and most authoritative presentation of Jesus?

Without finding Jesus there is no way you could become a Christian because it won't make sense to your intellect since Jesus speaks mostly to your heart and convince yourself that you're a sinner who needs Him for your salvation.

Religions in general speak to peoples hearts for many reasons.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

No it's your emphasis on Christianity as the solution to other religions which you rehash quite often here.



If this is truly the case, why do you avoid engaging discussion the various times I've asked you direct questions about various Eastern Religious doctrines/views/practices?



I'm very strongly a Muslim in and out but I hold no dislike for any given religion, I don't think that a position that is defacto hostile or opposed to other religions on the basis of their forms and cultural structure as being good reason to take such a position.
Whether I like or hate another religion shouldn't cause you such strange suspicions as you allude to here. Both Buddhism and Hinduism have much use, particularly philosophically and practically. Examining things from a point of view which is distanced from the views you yourself is of great value if one understands their own reasoning to begin with to why they hold the views they identify themselves under.

Connecting back with some of your questions on my comprehension of Hinduism, the first video I watched on the subject was “Gods of the New Age” back in the 80s...

More recently I have looked at a lot of material from Ravi Zacharias. He left Hinduism for Christianity.

From a philosophical standpoint, I find Ravi is very incisive.

 

[Infinityloop]

Connecting back with some of your questions on my comprehension of Hinduism, the first video I watched on the subject was “Gods of the New Age” back in the 80s...

So your knowledge on the subject extends no father than pop culture? the Beatles never even explored Hinduism itself, just one small (at the time) largely western (and at that, controversial too) form of Vaishnavism known as "Krishna Consciousness" namely the organization ISKCON.

Alongside this Hindus usually have a strong disdain for the New Age movement. I'm not sure why you are so eager to entertain that over tradition Hinduism which traces back thousands of years.

More recently I have looked at a lot of material from Ravi Zacharias. He left Hinduism for Christianity.

From a philosophical standpoint, I find Ravi is very incisive.

Sum up his argument for me please.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Sum up his argument for me please.

Perhaps before I do, can you let me know if you believe that good and evil exist? If so, who defines these concepts? Are they sociological or an expression of a greater spiritual reality?

If not, do you believe in the Hindu concept of Maya (illusion) or the Yin/Yang idea of the essential dualism of good and evil?

 

[Infinityloop]

Perhaps before I do, can you let me know if you believe that good and evil exist?

Of course I do. I'm not a Nihilist.

If so, who defines these concepts?

Precisely God.

Are they sociological or an expression of a greater spiritual reality?

Well as both the Bible and Qur'an state, God is the creator of both good and evil. Both of which are (from an Islamic POV) the conditions placed upon us, we are placed between the twin pillars of good and evil and we have find our way to God through our Fitrah. God is infinitely merciful, if only we understand.

If not, do you believe in the Hindu concept of Maya (illusion) or the Yin/Yang idea of the essential dualism of good and evil?

Maya, yes, Maya is just the Hindu way of expressing the distinction between the terms Creator and Creation. We are not the Creator but we are also not a deity, so our existence is ultimately one of less-reality, defined by and through God, having no independent reality outside of God (Surah 96:6-8, etc etc etc).

Yin and Yang is not Hinduism, that's Taoism which has yet another worldview. Yin and Yang represent not dualism but duality, not good and evil but all conceived opposites. In Taoism, the union of yin and yang is the Tao, the Tao is unknowable and omnipresent.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Of course I do. I'm not a Nihilist.



Precisely God.



Well as both the Bible and Qur'an state, God is the creator of both good and evil. Both of which are (from an Islamic POV) the conditions placed upon us, we are placed between the twin pillars of good and evil and we have find our way to God through our Fitrah. God is infinitely merciful, if only we understand.



Maya, yes, Maya is just the Hindu way of expressing the distinction between the terms Creator and Creation. We are not the Creator but we are also not a deity, so our existence is ultimately one of less-reality, defined by and through God, having no independent reality outside of God (Surah 96:6-8, etc etc etc).

Yin and Yang is not Hinduism, that's Taoism which has yet another worldview. Yin and Yang represent not dualism but duality, not good and evil but all conceived opposites. In Taoism, the union of yin and yang is the Tao, the Tao is unknowable and omnipresent.

[edit - further to my previous post] You ask a very interesting philosophical question in saying “sum up his argument for me please”. In a sense, I could do this, and in another, there may not be value in doing so. You see, @Infinityloop , Christianity is not a philosophical position that can be reached simply through argument, as it is more than just a conclusion that you find at the end. Apologetics, debate, evidence are all fine and will take you so far, but to get to know the person that Christians talk about such a lot by these means is like trying to reach the moon by car. A car might take you to the rocket launch site but at this point it reaches the limit of its usefulness.

Ravi reaches the point where he found the emptiness of his own beliefs and reached out to Jesus. He met him and changed his life. If you want to break free from the infinite loop and step off the religious treadmill, simply and honestly ask Him to make Himself known to you.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Infinityloop

On the subject of God “creating evil” does my understanding match yours?

Question: "Did God create evil?"

Answer: At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good. One of the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a “thing” that required God to create it.

Perhaps a further illustration will help. If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.

As finite human beings, we can never fully understand an infinite God (Romans 11:33-34). Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought. God looks at things from a holy, eternal perspective. We look at things from a sinful, earthly, and temporal perspective. Why did God put man on earth knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore bring evil, death, and suffering on all mankind? Why didn’t He just create us all and leave us in heaven where we would be perfect and without suffering? These questions cannot be adequately answered this side of eternity. What we can know is whatever God does is holy and perfect and ultimately will glorify Him. God allowed for the possibility of evil in order to give us a true choice in regards to whether we worship Him. God did not create evil, but He allowed it. If He had not allowed evil, we would be worshipping Him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own will.

https://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-create-evil.html

 

[Infinityloop]

[edit - further to my previous post] You ask a very interesting philosophical question in saying “sum up his argument for me please”. In a sense, I could do this, and in another, there may not be value in doing so. You see, @Infinityloop , Christianity is not a philosophical position that can be reached simply through argument, as it is more than just a conclusion that you find at the end. Apologetics, debate, evidence are all fine and will take you so far, but to get to know the person that Christians talk about such a lot by these means is like trying to reach the moon by car. A car might take you to the rocket launch site but at this point it reaches the limit of its usefulness.

This kind of mentality cannot be held respectively when you, by your own admission, simultaneously hold it up as an objective, exclusive truth claim. If you were more agnostic with your worldview as a whole, there would hardly be any reason to challenge it.
Resorting to agnosticism when challenged is not a good sign at all.

Ravi reaches the point where he found the emptiness of his own beliefs and reached out to Jesus.

So personal satisfaction was his reason for choosing Christianity over his apparent former Hinduism. Ok. What form of Hinduism did he practice (for more description), I'm intrigued.

 

[Infinityloop]

@Infinityloop

On the subject of God “creating evil” does my understanding match yours?

Question: "Did God create evil?"

Answer: At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good. One of the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a “thing” that required God to create it.

Perhaps a further illustration will help. If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.

As finite human beings, we can never fully understand an infinite God (Romans 11:33-34). Sometimes we think we understand why God is doing something, only to find out later that it was for a different purpose than we originally thought. God looks at things from a holy, eternal perspective. We look at things from a sinful, earthly, and temporal perspective. Why did God put man on earth knowing that Adam and Eve would sin and therefore bring evil, death, and suffering on all mankind? Why didn’t He just create us all and leave us in heaven where we would be perfect and without suffering? These questions cannot be adequately answered this side of eternity. What we can know is whatever God does is holy and perfect and ultimately will glorify Him. God allowed for the possibility of evil in order to give us a true choice in regards to whether we worship Him. God did not create evil, but He allowed it. If He had not allowed evil, we would be worshipping Him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own will.

https://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-create-evil.html

Yeah I know the whole "evil is the absence of good" apologetic in Christianity.

The Islamic view is completely different. The Qur'an (as well as many sayings in the Hadith collections) diagnose evil as a symptom of ignorance and arrogance. Through our own ignorance and arrogance, we harm other people, we neglect our duty, we cause pain and suffering to others - which is in harsh dissonance with Fitrah, which is of love. In Islam, this is responded to through knowledge, reason, love, the intellect. Through seeking to please God the aim is to alleviate suffering (of which is conditional to Dunya).
While there are somewhat metaphysical concepts associated (like the Shaitan), it is not an absolute and is conditional to our own existence which hinges on cause and effect (as we are created things).

Just like Christianity, we make a big distinction between this world (Dunya) and the next, or the hereafter (Akhirah). However unlike Christianity, we strongly shun (as warned against by the Qur'an) monasticism and promote a view which elevates the collective realization of God over the individual. With this comes the need for charity and related practices that promote the wellbeing of others.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

So personal satisfaction was his reason for choosing Christianity over his apparent former Hinduism. Ok. What form of Hinduism did he practice (for more description), I'm intrigued.

Seriously, if you are intrigued, just watch it ;-)

As to the other question of philosophy/relationship you have my sympathy. Jesus is alive and knowable. These concepts are alien to the minds of many, yet every Christian would be able to tell you the same thing.

Imagine watching a food programme, reading about food and maybe even studying its history without ever eating a great meal? It sounds like nonsense, but likewise imagine a world where people compose all kinds of systems about God, while refusing the way he has made available for people to come into relationship with Him!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The problem here is your defensive resort to my threads is to just do exactly the same thing you always already to (Christian propaganda threads about people converting to Christianity).
Give it a rest Red, you're not choosing to learn anything.

Btw, Acts 4 comes to mind when you say things like the above!

The Name of Jesus Forbidden

13Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. 14And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. 15But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, 16saying, “What shall we do to these men? For, indeed, that a notable miracle has been done through them is evident to all who dwell in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17But so that it spreads no further among the people, let us severely threaten them, that from now on they speak to no man in this name.”

18So they called them and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. 20For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.” 21So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way of punishing them, because of the people, since they all glorified God for what had been done. 22For the man was over forty years old on whom this miracle of healing had been performed.

 

[Infinityloop]

Btw, Acts 4 comes to mind when you say things like the above!

The Name of Jesus Forbidden

13Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. 14And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. 15But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, 16saying, “What shall we do to these men? For, indeed, that a notable miracle has been done through them is evident to all who dwell in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17But so that it spreads no further among the people, let us severely threaten them, that from now on they speak to no man in this name.”

18So they called them and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. 20For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.” 21So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way of punishing them, because of the people, since they all glorified God for what had been done. 22For the man was over forty years old on whom this miracle of healing had been performed.

To Ctrl+V which I've already stated:

This kind of mentality cannot be held in respect when you, by your own admission, simultaneously hold it up as an objective, exclusive truth claim. If you were more agnostic with your worldview as a whole, there would hardly be any reason to challenge it.
Resorting to agnosticism when challenged is not a good sign at all.

 

[AspiringSoul]

Nabeel was never a Muslim.
He was ahmadi.

 

[Wigi]

People become Muslims because complete submission, in love and purity, and moral conduct, to the Unity of God

Honestly I doubt all muslims believe this(about conduct at least).
I've met muslims who think it's much worse to eat pork than hating jews or apostate for example

Religions in general speak to peoples hearts for many reasons.

I would like to know how your religion spoke to you

 

[Infinityloop]

Honestly I doubt all muslims believe this(about conduct at least).
I've met muslims who think it's much worse to eat pork than hating jews or apostate for example

Oh really?

I would like to know how your religion spoke to you

Well in many ways my explanation of Islam was a tldr version of that.