No regard...for the desire of women

[manama]

So you are reading my entries after all... wow you made my day!
What I want to know is how you knew I reposted material on Islam, when I didn't give links I had seen before making the post.

You don't need to send links to basically say the same thing you've been saying for years.

 

[Swiftturtle]

They’re pointing out that within Islam, there’s infighting about what is even true. While you don’t view it is accurate, many others do. either way, you’re focusing on a kernel, saying that piece is hurting how ppl view Islam- but you’re completely glossing over the fact that the very basic, unarguable, foundations are rooted in the acts of a tyrannical, blood thirsty, abuse condoning, ‘women are property’, self professed prophet. Supporting Islam means you’re supporting the very foundations of it that are diabolical. But, being a Muslim is a huge part of your identity, and the belief of your entire source of your support system- both in community and family. For that reason alone, it’s almost impossible to look objectively at Islam instead of automatically defending it- regardless of what you’re defending. If a belief system can’t withstand facts, and ppl wholeheartedly believes things like Abraham going to Mecca with zero historical proof, that’s a serious issue. You may be an incredibly kind person and a peaceful Muslim, but you claim allegiance and vigorously defend a religion that isn’t a ‘religion of peace’. It’s a complete contradiction, and no amount of trying to ignore the foundations of it will ever change those foundations. It’s a religion based on works ‘balancing out sin’, but the ‘moral basis’ that defines what is right and wrong was decided by an actual war lord.

 

[manama]

Maybe if you can't judge a faith or religion or look at it from a neutral standpoint, you shouldn't ever be discussing them and stick to your own. You consider a faith bad? nice good for you, stick to your own. But you can not debate a faith unless you look at it via the eyes of its believers. Maybe you'll realize why we have no problem talking about Christianity or asking questions about it to people like red or todd versus people like you, Jo or Lisa.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

First of all that Aussie imam is a joke. He is basically a troll thats being taken serious by people for whatever reason. He has made very weird statements to the point that our actual imams had to warn people to do their research before believing whatever he says.

Also the hadith you mentioned, like we've said many times in this forum, is fake. Its inauthentic. The chain of narration is weak, the narrator NEVER met Aisha r.a. so the fact that he narrated this from her point of view is very suspicious. Also the man had dementia lol.

-The hadith also is clearly fake because it says that their nikkah was when she was 6 years old. But Aisha r.a is said to be 6 when she accepted Islam as she accepted it when her father did who accepted it during year 1 of prophethood.
-The time gap between year 1 of prophethood and the migration to Medina is 13 years and Aisha and Prophet married a year AFTER the migration.
-Not just that but Aisha r.a. was the daughter of Abu Bakr's first wife who died way before the prophet started preaching Islam.
-Also Aisha took part in the battle of Badr as a nurse and you had to be 14+ to be allowed near the battlefield.
Basic math tells us she was atleast 19-20. History tells us she was 19-20. ONE hadith that has been again and again proven wrong tells us she wasn't. Quran doesn't even allow marriage unless the person is physically and mentally mature.

While our language might sound crude but you have to realize that I don't live in the first world. I know along with many others that this hadith is fake and we know that it was spread around by people who wanted to exploit Islam using misinformation and marry young girls.
I've seen young kids get married off as child brides in South Asia. And I, along with other Muslims have been trying to fight it by educating people that its wrong and that its NOT a part of Islam.
So you can't blame us for getting pissed off when someone comes in and tries to shove it down our throats that "its islam". We are the victims of this, we ARE fighting this and we don't need to be told that its islam by people who are trying to make themselves feel good about their own faith.
When you say that this hadith is correct, you are causing damage and Muslim kids are at the receiving end. This is something that needs to be exposed, spread awareness about. Not forced into Islam. Its easy to say "hurr durr if it hadith it true" when you are living in a safe space.

You can tell whether a hadith is accurate or not by whether its in accordance with the Quran. Other methods include verifying the chain of narration and time etc. Hadith are basically quotes and sayings that the Prophet said or things he did. But we aren't hearing this from him but rather people who heard it from them. It includes people who are narrating accurately, people who forgot stuff and people who spread lies.
This is the old "if its on the internet it must be true" thing. We have to verify stuff before believing them and the reason we are in such a mess is because of people who don't bother with research or context.

I was more interested in your take on whether the Hadith was correct or not and what that meant to you. There are several “Christian Hadiths” in circulation that do not resonate with true Christianity (Book of Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Gospel of Thomas etc) that I would not include or even bother reading. These were also rejected by the early church, but were collected it seems by Alexandrian Gnostics and hidden in the Nag Hammadi, library. The reason is that they are doctrinally and factually off, written later by Gnostics etc etc.

To help us understand, what is it about Shaikh Tawhidi that makes him a joke? I listened to him and he simply seemed to be a Muslim who had come to think that the Hadith as a whole should be questioned and held up to scrutiny. Does this question make sense?

 

[manama]

I was more interested in your take on whether the Hadith was correct or not and what that meant to you. There are several “Christian Hadiths” in circulation that do not resonate with true Christianity (Book of Barnabas, Shepherd of Hermas, Gospel of Thomas etc) that I would not include or even bother reading. These were also rejected by the early church. The reason is that they are doctrinally and factually off, written later by Gnostics etc etc.

To help us understand, what is it about Shaikh Tawhidi that makes him a joke? I listened to him and he simply seemed to be a Muslim who had come to think that the Hadith as a whole should be questioned and held up to scrutiny. Does this question make sense?

There was a bunch of stuff that made him infamous. Highlights include lies about where he got his education from. He said he learned Quran etc from a university but it was fake. Said he was imam of a specific mosque, which was again fake. He is also known to be awful on social media as in he calls out other imams who he doesn't agree with and calls them apes and rapists. Also he often wrongly quotes hadith and verses and tells stories that never happened.
His whole "hadith should be looked at" is nothing but a facade to please western non-Muslims and make himself look moderate and get publicity.

You can't be a scholar and then misquote your religious scripture and you can't call yourself a peaceful preacher and then call those who don't agree with you, rapists.

 

[Swiftturtle]

Maybe if you can't judge a faith or religion or look at it from a neutral standpoint, you shouldn't ever be discussing them and stick to your own. You consider a faith bad? nice good for you, stick to your own. But you can not debate a faith unless you look at it via the eyes of its believers. Maybe you'll realize why we have no problem talking about Christianity or asking questions about it to people like red or todd versus people like you, Jo or Lisa.

A neutral standpoint starts by looking at the basic foundational beliefs, which I did, and found diabolical. I’m not in a position where I have to defend it like you instinctively feel you do, bc it isn’t the central thread of my family and community. You’d have to literally put that all on the line to look at it objectively and say ‘do I agree with those foundations?’ I was raised as a Christian, with my community having numerous Christians, but as an adult it was put on me to decide if I wanted to choose to follow Christ. If I hadn’t, my family would’ve been disappointed, but my relationships, both from family and community, would still lovingly embrace me. When a Christian backslides or turns their back on Christ, people pray that God changes their hearts, but theyre still fully loved and welcome- There’s no ‘cutting off’ or labeling them a traitor to the faith. A family member of mine was married for years already, became a Muslim for her husband, and then found out her husband has an entire other wife and kids back in Pakistan. If she leaves, she loses her entire support system, and her own daughter would be put in the middle of choosing all she’s ever known, or staying close to her mother.

 

[manama]

A neutral standpoint starts by looking at the basic foundational beliefs, which I did, and found diabolical. I’m not in a position where I have to defend it like you instinctively feel you do, bc it isn’t the central thread of my family and community. You’d have to literally put that all on the line to look at it objectively and say ‘do I agree with those foundations?’ I was raised as a Christian, with my community having numerous Christians, but as an adult it was put on me to decide if I wanted to choose to follow Christ. If I hadn’t, my family would’ve been disappointed, but my relationships, both from family and community, would still lovingly embrace me. When a Christian backslides or turns their back on Christ, people pray that God changes their hearts, but theyre still fully loved and welcome- There’s no ‘cutting off’ or labeling them a traitor to the faith. A family member of mine was married for years already, became a Muslim for her husband, and then found out her husband has an entire other wife and kids back in Pakistan. If she leaves, she loses her entire support system, and her own daughter would be put in the middle of choosing all she’s ever known, or staying close to her mother.

"my family member married a bad dude and now his entire faith and country is to blame".


P. S. Every faith has people who cut off their relatives for something they don't agree with. My friend got kicked out of the house at 16 because she did the devil's tango before marriage, her family was Christian. If I was ignorant, I'd be blaming Christianity too instead of her parents for being dumb.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

There was a bunch of stuff that made him infamous. Highlights include lies about where he got his education from. He said he learned Quran etc from a university but it was fake. Said he was imam of a specific mosque, which was again fake. He is also known to be awful on social media as in he calls out other imams who he doesn't agree with and calls them apes and rapists. Also he often wrongly quotes hadith and verses and tells stories that never happened.
His whole "hadith should be looked at" is nothing but a facade to please western non-Muslims and make himself look moderate and get publicity.

You can't be a scholar and then misquote your religious scripture and you can't call yourself a peaceful preacher and then call those who don't agree with you, rapists.

Would you say these Hadith are essentially rumours of Muhammad collected long after the events? Does Tawhidi quote these accounts incorrectly? Just trying to get a clear picture of your perspective...

 

[Swiftturtle]

"my family member married a bad dude and now his entire faith and country is to blame".

“I don’t want to ever address the points made, so I use rolling eye emojis, ‘lol’, and make false statements”
His actions are to blame, and my point was clearly that she’d lose her entire community and possibly the relationship even with her daughter. I was saying that I understand that that possibility for Muslims makes it nearly impossible to risk looking at Islam objectively. Because it’s tied so deeply to your relationships, and you’d lose those if you left, it makes it incredibly difficult. I was saying I understand that part, bc my cousin puts on a fake smile, but behind the scenes to her mother, it’s different. And the biggest part is she’d instantly lose her community

 

[Swiftturtle]

"my family member married a bad dude and now his entire faith and country is to blame".


P. S. Every faith has people who cut off their relatives for something they don't agree with. My friend got kicked out of the house at 16 because she did the devil's tango before marriage, her family was Christian. If I was ignorant, I'd be blaming Christianity too instead of her parents for being dumb.

As stated in my reply to your post- before your ‘PS addition’, I blame him for his actions. As for your friend, that’s also on her parents. Islam SAYS to reject those that turn from Islam, the Bible quite literally says the opposite. There’s an entire story about it; The Prodigal Son. He demanded his inheritance before he should’ve had it, turned his back on his beliefs and family, squandered his money on partying. He had nowhere to go but back home, and his father ran to him rejoicing that his son was back, and threw a huge feast to celebrate.

 

[manama]

“I don’t want to ever address the points made, so I use rolling eye emojis, ‘lol’, and make false statements”
His actions are to blame, and my point was clearly that she’d lose her entire community and possibly the relationship even with her daughter. I was saying that I understand that that possibility for Muslims makes it nearly impossible to risk looking at Islam objectively. Because it’s tied so deeply to your relationships, and you’d lose those if you left, it makes it incredibly difficult. I was saying I understand that part, bc my cousin puts on a fake smile, but behind the scenes to her mother, it’s different. And the biggest part is she’d instantly lose her community

People cheat in all kinds of relationship. Just because your relative got stuck with a bad dude doesn't mean everyone is bad. Why would she lose her community tho?
My brother is married to an Australian woman while cousin is married to an atheist somewhere in Denmark. Happy marriages despite my grandparents crying for them to marry within the community. I've been a in same-sex relationship for years. All of us would've been disowned according to your logic.
Just are my good circumstances doesn't make everyone else's good too, similarly your bad ones don't make it bad for everyone else either. Clearly you are approaching this subject with personal feelings and that will not work out in anyone's favour.

 

[Swiftturtle]

People cheat in all kinds of relationship. Just because your relative got stuck with a bad dude doesn't mean everyone is bad. Why would she lose her community tho?
My brother is married to an Australian woman while cousin is married to an atheist somewhere in Denmark. Happy marriages despite my grandparents crying for them to marry within the community. I've been a in same-sex relationship for years. All of us would've been disowned according to your logic.
Just are my good circumstances doesn't make everyone else's good too, similarly your bad ones don't make it bad for everyone else either. Clearly you are approaching this subject with personal feelings and that will not work out in anyone's favour.

I’m approaching it by quite literally stating what Islam *says to do* when someone leaves the Muslim Faith, NOT *my logic*, what your own religion instructs. Your pretzel twisting denial of what your own faith instructs and projection is next level.

 

[manama]

Would you say these Hadith are essentially rumours of Muhammad collected long after the events? Does Tawhidi quote these accounts incorrectly? Just trying to get a clear picture of your perspective...

I grew up hearing that Muslim women can not marry non-Muslims and then it turned out that forget fake hadith, the hadith doesn't even exist. Similarly in my sister's school there was an abusive teacher who'd hit students with rulers. And so that the kids don't tell home she'd tell them that according to the prophet if a teacher hits you, hellfire wouldn't touch you on the injured place. This was again something I often heard and turned out that even a fake hadith didn't exist.
Some people were just clever enough to write their fake "hadiths" down or have them printed into hadith books while some carried through mouth to ear. And then these fake ones get either used by the super extremist priests as facts and "look at me, i'm so pious" or by the other end who goes "look at me, im so moderate". Both are wrong and only cause damage.

Tawhidi used fake narrations to show "problems" but he also often doesn't know the incident behind hadith or contexts in general. He also often would mention a chapter name and verse number he would be "quoting" only to say half of a verse from a completely different chapter. He also issued fatwas (Religious orders) which you can not issue without the presence of multiple scholars and a vast majority of agreement. His way of getting publicity is downright cringey with "Buy my book before i get killed because of it" lol.

 

[manama]

I’m approaching it by quite literally stating what Islam *says to do* when someone leaves the Muslim Faith, NOT *my logic*, what your own religion instructs. Your pretzel twisting denial of what your own faith instructs and projection is next level.

What do you want? There has only been one case of death penalty after leaving islam in the prophet's time and its also the incident thats quoted the most. But there was a contract/agreement that people who accepted islam would be forgiven or their prior crimes and accepted into the community while those who didn't would be sent back to their homes. A man would kill and convert to islam to be forgiven only to do it again. Ofcourse after the third murder and one more attempt at "i'm accepting Islam" people were onto him and the man got death penalty. There is only one denomination right now that considers the punishment for leaving faith to be death and i'm not a follower of that sect.

 

[Lisa]

But that makes god seem like Kim Jong Un to an exponential level, with some extra rules lawyering to avoid seeming like it. Humans lie, cheat, and steal, everyone’s done it once or twice.

Imagine you’re ten years old and hanging out with your friends. Your friends egg you on into stealing some candy from 7/11, which you do, and then your dad finds out. The way Christians describe the way they view god is like your dad finding out you stole that candy bar and immediately putting you on a plane to North Korea, where you’ll have to live in a work camp until you die, unless you let your brother take the punishment of going to North Korea for you. No sane person would be cool with that, it’s ridiculous and an incredibly extreme punishment for a dollar’s worth of stolen snack.

In the traditions I was raised in, to use the same metaphor, your dad catches you with the stolen candy, so he makes you go back to the 7/11, apologize to the clerk, and pay the cost of the stolen candy. 7/11 still gets the cost of the candy. You probably know not to steal candy next time, and you apologized for your actions. No harm done in the end, your pride might be damaged. But nobody has to go to Eternal North Korea. Obviously it’s not a one to one comparison, not everything a person does wrong is the moral equivalent of snatching a Reese’s cup, but to me, unless you’re literally Hitler or something nobody deserves torture forever. How do you square that with believing the Supreme Being is a good being?

Can a good being allow people to sin? Or is a good being going to punish people for it? A bad being probably wouldn’t care and would encourage people to sin and in that case you would have lawlessness. A good being hates lawlessness.

Ya your parent might take you by the 7/11 and make you give back what you stole and maybe you wouldn’t do it again. Or maybe you would...we all sin and not just the one time and not just the one thing. We might be able to be good for awhile but we are always going to find sin since we were born with a want to to sin. A good being hates that and there is only one way to fix it. Believe in the One who took the once for all punishment for that sin.

You don’t have to like the way out but that is the only way out. And why does it have to be that way? Why can’t God just say well, you didn’t mean it, people make mistakes, that’s ok. That’s not the way God works, to sin is evil to a good and holy God. And He doesn’t make you pay the price for it, He paid that price for you if you believe in His Son.

I think that’s what you’re forgetting. God took it upon Himself to get you out of the trouble with Him that your sin has caused. That seems awfully generous to me, honestly. I don’t have to do anything except believe in Jesus and I’m again in right standing with a good and holy God? That’s it? For everything I’ve done, that’s all I have to do? Wow! I think that’s extremely generous myself. I don’t know really what the problem is with that except people hate to see themselves as that bad. Like you said everyone lies, cheats and steals...we are as bad as God says we are. Yet we hate the remedy God uses to gracefully get us out of our punishment seems more prideful than anything else.

 

[Haich]

Your comment is intriguing though: why do Christians happily quote the bible, but Muslims won't quote their Quran?
Is it can't (because you are taught nothing) or won't (out of shame)?

That wasn't my point at all. I like how you flipped it. Very Christian indeed.

You'll hardly find a Muslim quoting bible verses and trying to debunk them. Honestly, we don't care and from time you can't explain the trinity with clarity and explain why jesus prays to the father, then our work is done. Your faith is confusing and there are numerous inconsistencies in the bible which you gloss over. There are a lot threads from the past 2 years which if dug up, show pages and pages of people like Kung Fu, Desert Rose, Grateful servant, Manama and myself asking you guys to clarify these issues and nothing ever was cleared up. All you guys do is say 'Jesus was praying to God because he was in human form'...it makes no sense...why do you call him God then? How can he be God part time?

Anyway, my point was you guys (mainly you and Lisa) post the same old explained and debunked theories of Islam. That's why you don't get a response, you know these points have been addressed already. I can't help you accept the facts about Mohammed pbuh, you choose to take your islamic knowledge from ex muslims or people who have no connection to the faith.

Do ever consider that maybe your religious leaders chat nonsense about Islam to stop you from being tolerant of others? Sure, the same could be said for other faith leaders but YouTube is just full of losers like David Wood trying to get a reaction out of muslims, to only then point the finger when he gets a reaction and says 'O look moslemz are so crazy and extreme'. I'm sorry but it's ludicrous to think that most of you believe half of what you're told about Islam...if you want to know about this 'mysterious faith' go to your local mosque and stop being so ignorant.

on't spend minutes on end trying to 'prove christianity wrong'. You guys do a pretty good job of that yourselves!

 

[Haich]

From a young age muslims are taught about the Quran and memorize it. They go to Quran or arabic class too where they learn shout their scripture...it's the norm so most muslims have a solid foundation from youth (except reverts of course). That's why when people on YTube say 'oh I'm an ex Muslim' people ask them to recite a verse or prove it by saying a prayer in arabic. If you are an ex muslim raised in a muslim household, you will defo know how to recite at least one verse. Trust me.

The path to christianity makes no sense to me. Christians have a dream, then have a bath at the church and boom 'yh I'm born again and sinless'. Fine, but then what?

I mean, it's hard to even detect a Christian these days. You say you believe in God but what is it that makes you Christian?

 

[Lisa]

You say you believe in God but what is it that makes you Christian?

Believing that God sent His Son Jesus as a once for all sacrifice for our sins.

 

[justjess]

From a young age muslims are taught about the Quran and memorize it. They go to Quran or arabic class too where they learn shout their scripture...it's the norm so most muslims have a solid foundation from youth (except reverts of course). That's why when people on YTube say 'oh I'm an ex Muslim' people ask them to recite a verse or prove it by saying a prayer in arabic. If you are an ex muslim raised in a muslim household, you will defo know how to recite at least one verse. Trust me.

The path to christianity makes no sense to me. Christians have a dream, then have a bath at the church and boom 'yh I'm born again and sinless'. Fine, but then what?

I mean, it's hard to even detect a Christian these days. You say you believe in God but what is it that makes you Christian?

Ehh.. Catholics are baptized at birth and then go to years of bible classes to make their sacraments. Starting in like first grade until 14 when they are confirmed in the faith.

 

[Haich]

Believing that God sent His Son Jesus as a once for all sacrifice for our sins.

Ok let me make myself clearer.

I believe in one God, I believe in all his prophets (Adam, Moses, Noah, Lot, David etc..). I believe these men were great men who served God and brought about the message of monotheism. Each man was sent to a specific nation and relayed the message that was given to him. However, I don't believe that Jesus was sent to us. I believe he was sent to the Israelites or 'bani Israel' in arabic. I believe, due to Paul and the general inconsistencies in the bible, that God chose a prophet from the son of Abraham, Ishmael, and Mohammed pbuh was his name.
God sent Angel Gabriel to Mohammed and the Quran was orated and later written.

I believe that the Quran is a clear guide on how I can live my life in a calm and conscious way. It tells me how to be conscious of my surroundings, people, friends and family. Every aspect of my existence, down to the best way to eat and bathe is revealed in the hadith or the Quran. As a result of following these guidelines, some which are obligatory and some which are optional, I see and feel the difference in my life.

So my question to you is, when you believe that Jesus is your lord and saviour, what do you do that makes you Christian? What defines your faith?