“Don’t force your help on people who are not willing to change”

[Red Sky at Morning]

This may sound harsh, but it’s true as well. One of the things I sad fact have learned over the years is that you can rarely communicate truth to people who don’t want to hear it (or you).

The Bible talks about the stony ground, where the seed is scattered on the surface but doesn’t go in. Instead, it remains there and is quickly eaten up by the birds. Perhaps the message here is that just like the sower in the parable, we should share the truth with everyone, but be aware that some are so hardened against it that none of it actually goes in.

If you saw a farmer with a great big bag of seeds spending day after day trying to push seeds into the driest, most concrete like ground, you would wonder at the guys sanity! Likewise on this forum, some Christians (and I have certainly done this myself) spend most of the time wearing themselves out on the hard ground of souls who have heard the same old thing of the Gospel a thousand times, and developed hundreds of ways to ignore and reject it.

Another mental picture that comes to mind is that of a lamp and a torch. I feel very convicted of this one as Christians are told to be like lamps (shining light all around) yet I might have spent my time here doing the equivalent of shining a torch behind a cupboard, while the people around me would get ignored. Those who continually choose darkness want to stay away from the light for their own reasons.

Derek Prince puts the case really well here...

 

[JoChris]

This may sound harsh, but it’s true as well. One of the things I sad fact have learned over the years is that you can rarely communicate truth to people who don’t want to hear it (or you).

The Bible talks about the stony ground, where the seed is scattered on the surface but doesn’t go in. Instead, it remains there and is quickly eaten up by the birds. Perhaps the message here is that just like the sower in the parable, we should share the truth with everyone, but be aware that some are so hardened against it that none of it actually goes in.

If you saw a farmer with a great big bag of seeds spending day after day trying to push seeds into the driest, most concrete like ground, you would wonder at the guys sanity! Likewise on this forum, some Christians (and I have certainly done this myself) spend most of the time wearing themselves out on the hard ground of souls who have heard the same old thing of the Gospel a thousand times, and developed hundreds of ways to ignore and reject it.

Another mental picture that comes to mind is that of a lamp and a torch. I feel very convicted of this one as Christians are told to be like lamps (shining light all around) yet I might have spent my time here doing the equivalent of shining a torch behind a cupboard, while the people around me would get ignored. Those who continually choose darkness want to stay away from the light for their own reasons.

Derek Prince puts the case really well here...

That was a well timed entry. If people have actively decided to reject the true Jesus then Christians should leave them in God's hands. Pray for them - yes, argue/ debate - no.

 

[Lisa]

We’d have nothing to talk about if we did that

What do ya think about;

Jude‬ ‭1:1, 3‬ ‭
To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:

Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
​

I think it’s good to at least have some record of a Christian telling the truth when someone has stated something incorrect about Jesus, God or the Bible...

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

We’d have nothing to talk about if we did that

What do ya think about;

Jude‬ ‭1:1, 3‬ ‭​

To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:​

​

Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.​

​

I think it’s good to at least have some record of a Christian telling the truth when someone has stated something incorrect about Jesus, God or the Bible...

I definitely agree with the value of “contending for the faith” (as my message count here might indicate ;-) but I think we all need to seek guidance and wisdom in the way we do it.

For me, Matthew 10 strikes the right balance...

Sending Out the Twelve

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven [c]is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, [d]cleanse the lepers, [e]raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.

11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

 

[Lisa]

I think we all need to seek guidance and wisdom in the way we do it.

I agree with that...seeking guidance and wisdom from God goes a long way into figuring out when to shake the dust from your feet.

I also can’t help but think that God has a reason for us all to be here, not that I think it’s the same reason..but He hasn’t given up on the people here.

 

[Dalit]

This may sound harsh, but it’s true as well. One of the things I sad fact have learned over the years is that you can rarely communicate truth to people who don’t want to hear it (or you).

The Bible talks about the stony ground, where the seed is scattered on the surface but doesn’t go in. Instead, it remains there and is quickly eaten up by the birds. Perhaps the message here is that just like the sower in the parable, we should share the truth with everyone, but be aware that some are so hardened against it that none of it actually goes in.

If you saw a farmer with a great big bag of seeds spending day after day trying to push seeds into the driest, most concrete like ground, you would wonder at the guys sanity! Likewise on this forum, some Christians (and I have certainly done this myself) spend most of the time wearing themselves out on the hard ground of souls who have heard the same old thing of the Gospel a thousand times, and developed hundreds of ways to ignore and reject it.

Another mental picture that comes to mind is that of a lamp and a torch. I feel very convicted of this one as Christians are told to be like lamps (shining light all around) yet I might have spent my time here doing the equivalent of shining a torch behind a cupboard, while the people around me would get ignored. Those who continually choose darkness want to stay away from the light for their own reasons.

Derek Prince puts the case really well here...

Sometimes people have to hit rock bottom to change anyway. It's happened to me a few times. Or anger or dissatisfaction is needed. That's where I'm at. I get scared of my anger, but it's motivating me to change and not let supposed loved ones mistreat me anymore.

Maybe the best prayer we can pray is for everyone, including ourselves (especially those who claim to be Christian!), to be humbled and hit rock bottom. It sucks, yes, but hope is springing out of the ashes of all my failures and the crap shoveled on me by those jerks I've let speak crap over me. I know they don't matter as much as I let them matter and I know I will overcome. Coming to the end of yourself is the best thing to ever happen.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Sometimes people have to hit rock bottom to change anyway. It's happened to me a few times. Or anger or dissatisfaction is needed. That's where I'm at. I get scared of my anger, but it's motivating me to change and not let supposed loved ones mistreat me anymore.

Maybe the best prayer we can pray is for everyone, including ourselves (especially those who claim to be Christian!), to be humbled and hit rock bottom. It sucks, yes, but hope is springing out of the ashes of all my failures and the crap shoveled on me by those jerks I've let speak crap over me. I know they don't matter as much as I let them matter and I know I will overcome. Coming to the end of yourself is the best thing to ever happen.

It puts me in mind of my own life as well, @Dalit - all great adventures with God seek to start with us on our knees, having given up on thinking we know it all and can do everything ourselves...

 

[Dalit]

she's talking abt racism but tbh it applies in every area

Good message about self-talk. Hurting people hurt people after all. Freedom from the tyranny of others' opinions, especially mean and hurtful people, is needed.

 

[elsbet]

Sometimes people have to hit rock bottom to change anyway. It's happened to me a few times. Or anger or dissatisfaction is needed. That's where I'm at. I get scared of my anger, but it's motivating me to change and not let supposed loved ones mistreat me anymore.

Maybe the best prayer we can pray is for everyone, including ourselves (especially those who claim to be Christian!), to be humbled and hit rock bottom. It sucks, yes, but hope is springing out of the ashes of all my failures and the crap shoveled on me by those jerks I've let speak crap over me. I know they don't matter as much as I let them matter and I know I will overcome. Coming to the end of yourself is the best thing to ever happen.

Some call that the gift of desperation. Only way to look at that point is up.

 

[DavidSon]

"Don't help people who are unwilling to change."

This to me is an un-Christian statement. Sounds like something we'd associate with the hard-heart of the Talmudists, not He who declared we should be the "light of the world." Now we could easily quote verses that either support the argument or contradict it, depending on the circumstance. The Holy Spirit is our guide in each situation. Jesus said not to give what's holy unto dogs, and to brush off our feet at those who reject the Word. But what if we pre-judge and close our minds to the direction the Almighty wants to bring His mercy? Who are we to assume a person won't change?

"But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.
And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.
Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
That you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain to the just and on the unjust.
For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." - MATT 5:39-48

 

[Corvus Metus]

I'd rather listen to Christ's teachings, who tell me to love my enemy, and help people unconditionally that some preacher who tells me to "only help those who help themselves". That sounds more Randian than Christian.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I'd rather listen to Christ's teachings, who tell me to love my enemy, and help people unconditionally that some preacher who tells me to "only help those who help themselves". That sounds more Randian than Christian.

Notice that the sower DID throw seed on the hard ground. For example, even as you read through this forum, can you conclude that those hardened against the gospel have never had me or my other brothers and sisters in the Lord share with them?

James 4

6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:

“God resists the proud,​

But gives grace to the humble.”​

Put another way, Jesus had a very different approach to the tax collector compared to the Pharisee. The first knew he needed Gods love and forgiveness. The Pharisee thought he had it all together and did not require a saviour.

Luke 18

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”​

Please consider the words of Jesus in the context of @DavidSon ’s observations on the “unchristianness” of leaving the hard hearted, apostate and self deceived to the judgement they prefer to risk, rather than the humility of accepting salvation. I found these words very interesting...

“All apostasy has one thing in common: it presents a false gospel in which the Atonement is presented as either unnecessary (liberal theology), or not enough (legalism).”

Source

Matthew 23 King James Version (KJV)

23 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,​

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2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:​

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3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.​

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4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.​

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5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,​

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6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,​

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7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.​

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8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.​

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9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.​

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10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.​

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11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.​

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12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.​

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13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.​

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14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.​

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15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.​

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16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!​

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17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?​

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18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.​

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19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?​

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20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.​

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21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.​

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22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.​

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23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.​

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24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.​

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25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.​

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26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.​

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27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.​

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28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.​

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29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,​

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30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.​

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31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.​

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32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.​

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33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?​

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34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:​

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35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.​

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36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.​

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37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!​

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38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.​

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39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.​

 

[DavidSon]

“All apostasy has one thing in common: it presents a false gospel in which the Atonement is presented as either unnecessary (liberal theology), or not enough (legalism).”

The theology of Paul of Tarsus has nothing to do with the topic. But since you brought it up:

"The penalty of sin is not the problem. It is the power of real sin (greed, jealousy, pride, envy, hatred) over our lives that is the problem. And this problem is not solved by simply believing in some divine arrangement which the theory of substitutionary atonement resolves. Believing in a theory doesn’t change us or make us more loving persons."

"The late Dallas Willard, a professed evangelical, raises serious objections to this understanding of substitution, salvation and faith in his book, The Divine Conspiracy. He points out that this idea of thinking that God would transfer Christ’s merit account to ours, and our sin debt to Christ simply “upon inspecting our mind and finding that we believe a particular theory of the atonement to be true — even if we trust everything but God in all other matters that concern us” is foundationally flawed. Willard asks, “Can we believe that being saved has nothing whatsoever to do with the kinds of persons we are?” Willard rightly considers it “unfathomable” that God would devise a plan of salvation that “bypasses the awesome needs of present human life … with our kinds of problems: psychological, emotional, social and global,” and “leave human character untouched.”

GOD, NOT ATONEMENT THEORY, SAVES HUMANITY

 

[elsbet]

... that God would devise a plan of salvation that “bypasses the awesome needs of present human life ... and “leave human character untouched.”

He didn't. I'm not sure what makes you think He did. People, maybe-- but not scripture.

 

[Lisa]

Good message about self-talk. Hurting people hurt people after all. Freedom from the tyranny of others' opinions, especially mean and hurtful people, is needed.

Misery loves company?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Willard asks, “Can we believe that being saved has nothing whatsoever to do with the kinds of persons we are?” Willard rightly considers it “unfathomable” that God would devise a plan of salvation that “bypasses the awesome needs of present human life … with our kinds of problems: psychological, emotional, social and global,” and “leave human character untouched.”

Willard needs to carefully read Romans 6, 7 and 8 and then reconsider his statement!

 

[Daciple]

"The penalty of sin is not the problem. It is the power of real sin (greed, jealousy, pride, envy, hatred) over our lives that is the problem. And this problem is not solved by simply believing in some divine arrangement which the theory of substitutionary atonement resolves. Believing in a theory doesn’t change us or make us more loving persons."

Whomever this is that you are quoting and I would have to assume yourself as well, has never had a true encounter with Jesus Christ. The penalty of Sin IS the ultimate problem, regardless of whatever ideology you want to insert, every single human on Earth and that has ever existed save one, has always, and will always Sin, at some point, and if we are all honest, continually.

Therefore the penalty of Sin, which is Death and Hell, is of utmost importance, in fact it is the THE most important thing that was ever needed to be addressed or dealt with, otherwise all Humans (since ALL Sin) will be 100% subjected to Death and Hell.

So this persons opening statement is completely incorrect, so it follows that the rest of the quote is incorrect and spoken in clear ignorance of one who never in their life had a True Encounter with Jesus Christ Himself.

This quote says believe "a theory" doesnt change us or make us more loving people, later this person says the Atonement doesnt “leave human character untouched.”

Again written by someone that has never had an Encounter with Jesus themselves, and I wonder if you could have ever had an Encounter with Jesus, if you would quote someone saying such things.

I am living proof and I attend a Church with dozens of people who all can testify to the FACT that believing on the Gospel has completely changed them and completely made them more loving people. I was a full blown hater of all people, I was on drugs, obsessed with Sex, used people ect, I was an awful human being in every sense of the word. Then one night I had an Encounter with Jesus Christ Himself where He gave me Mercy and Grace instead of the punishment I deserved. He saved me from someone literally trying to kill me and He saved me from Death and Hell and it DRASTICALLY changed everything about me.

My Character completely changed, I started to care about others, I saw everyone in a different light. I began to love people in a different way, a real way. I wasnt just out to use them for my benefit, I began to help others just to help and to show them the love of Christ. To show them the same thing Christ showed me.

I've watched people I know, go from straight up Drug/Sex Addicts to preachers living a completely different lifestyle. I've know people who were complete Atheists who hated God and wanted nothing to do with any of the teachings of Christ to be completely dedicated to Christ and leave their old lives behind.

If you believe what this man says, then I have zero doubt that you have never met Jesus Christ for yourself, because if you do, if you really meet Him and come to know Him you will know that everything you quoted him saying is a lie. The Gospel changes people, it changes human character, it is the power to not only overcome Death and Hell but to overcome the Power of Sin itself.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

[DavidSon]

Whomever this is that you are quoting and I would have to assume yourself as well, has never had a true encounter with Jesus Christ. The penalty of Sin IS the ultimate problem, regardless of whatever ideology you want to insert, every single human on Earth and that has ever existed save one, has always, and will always Sin, at some point, and if we are all honest, continually.

Therefore the penalty of Sin, which is Death and Hell, is of utmost importance, in fact it is the THE most important thing that was ever needed to be addressed or dealt with, otherwise all Humans (since ALL Sin) will be 100% subjected to Death and Hell.

So this persons opening statement is completely incorrect, so it follows that the rest of the quote is incorrect and spoken in clear ignorance of one who never in their life had a True Encounter with Jesus Christ Himself.

This quote says believe "a theory" doesnt change us or make us more loving people, later this person says the Atonement doesnt “leave human character untouched.”

Again written by someone that has never had an Encounter with Jesus themselves, and I wonder if you could have ever had an Encounter with Jesus, if you would quote someone saying such things.

I am living proof and I attend a Church with dozens of people who all can testify to the FACT that believing on the Gospel has completely changed them and completely made them more loving people. I was a full blown hater of all people, I was on drugs, obsessed with Sex, used people ect, I was an awful human being in every sense of the word. Then one night I had an Encounter with Jesus Christ Himself where He gave me Mercy and Grace instead of the punishment I deserved. He saved me from someone literally trying to kill me and He saved me from Death and Hell and it DRASTICALLY changed everything about me.

My Character completely changed, I started to care about others, I saw everyone in a different light. I began to love people in a different way, a real way. I wasnt just out to use them for my benefit, I began to help others just to help and to show them the love of Christ. To show them the same thing Christ showed me.

I've watched people I know, go from straight up Drug/Sex Addicts to preachers living a completely different lifestyle. I've know people who were complete Atheists who hated God and wanted nothing to do with any of the teachings of Christ to be completely dedicated to Christ and leave their old lives behind.

If you believe what this man says, then I have zero doubt that you have never met Jesus Christ for yourself, because if you do, if you really meet Him and come to know Him you will know that everything you quoted him saying is a lie. The Gospel changes people, it changes human character, it is the power to not only overcome Death and Hell but to overcome the Power of Sin itself.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Much of what your saying affirms what this writer is proposing- that substitution theology isn't related to the power of transformation imparted by leaving sin. The penalty of sin isn't death and hell- SIN IS DEATH AND HELL! Those of us who have lived with a guilty conscience know it's like the description that Mosed gave... the "walking dead".

The Gospel proper is the Good News that Jesus preached about the Kingdom of God. This is what I find people of today longing for- the teachings of Jesus. His judgement on the proud, His intelligent words that encourage faith in God. Not Peter or the gospel of Paul necessarily, or other figures of the RCC. Paul is not needed in reaching toward the mind of Christ. Dispensationalism, zionism, the elaborate theology of Calvinists and Luthers (like sola fide)... they're just man made add-ons to the glory of God. The complete disagreement between churches over these theories only prove how contrived they are. We want discussions about the works and words of Jesus!

Daciple you said in another thread 99% of Christians believe in the Roman concept of the Trinity. Yet I read one post online that added up the non-trinitarian denominations and the number might be closer to 6% of 2.1 billion. I believe those wanting to return to Jesus and God alone, without the Hellenized "apostle to the pagans" or anybody latched onto His works, will slowly increase.

Jesus never said he "died for our sins". He LIVED to turn us from sin toward the Kingdom of God.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Jesus never said he "died for our sins". He LIVED to turn us from sin toward the Kingdom of God.

Matthew 20?

25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

I posted this up a few days ago, but you never picked up on it...

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-crimson-worm.5556/#post-218559

 

[DavidSon]

Matthew 20?

25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. 27 And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

I posted this up a few days ago, but you never picked up on it...

https://www.vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-crimson-worm.5556/#post-218559

You're punctuating a part after the central message of these verses (which is verse 26)- "...whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant." In terms of logical placement verse 28 is an afterthought.

This is a great example of how people storm up theories that are alien to the direct message. He said His life would be a ransom for many- not all, not all of mankind. Again, worshiping the fanciful, pagan imagination of Paul is not a requisite to drawing closer to God. I rejected the RCC years ago and advise others to do the same.