How to identify a false Christ, Teacher, Prophet

[bible_student]

Catholic Encyclopedia admits Trinity is not Biblical...why do they still teach it?
Catholic authority says that the Trinity “is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

The Catholic Encyclopedia comments: “In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word τρίας [tri′as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180."

the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: “The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament].”

Update: The New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) discusses the Trinity at length and admits: “The Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.”

Best Answer: They've taught that lie so long they can't give it up.
As Jesus said, "Letting go the commandment of God, you hold fast the tradition of men."
Mark 7:8

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100704123204AA84Dnf#

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

It was biased though as far as the central catholic doctrine (trinity) goes. They seemed to have hung on to that part (in some places) if not in others.

I put it to you that you are throwing the baby out with the Catholic bathwater ;-)

 

[Daciple]

I would suggest checking some of the other translations out there that did not have the rendering of the verse influences by catholic bias. e.g.

John 3:13
DLNT And no one has gone up into heaven except the One having come down from heaven— the Son of Man.
CEV No one has gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from there.
CSB No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven —the Son of Man.
CEV No one has gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from there.
DLNT And no one has gone up into heaven except the One having come down from heaven— the Son of Man.
ERV The only one who has ever gone up to heaven is the one who came down from heaven—the Son of Man.
ESV No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
ESVUK No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
EXB The only one who has ever gone up to heaven is [L No one has gone up into heaven except] the One who came down from heaven—the Son of Man [C a title for the Messiah; Dan. 7:13–14].
GW No one has gone to heaven except the Son of Man, who came from heaven.
GNT And no one has ever gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from heaven.”
HCSB No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.
ICB The only one who has ever gone up to heaven is the One who came down from heaven—the Son of Man.
PHILLIPS No one has ever been up to Heaven except the Son of Man who came down from Heaven.
LEB And no one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.
MOUNCE No one has gone up to · heaven except the one who came down out of · heaven, the Son of Man.
NOG No one has gone to heaven except the Son of Man, who came from heaven.
NABRE No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.
NASB No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
NCV The only one who has ever gone up to heaven is the One who came down from heaven—the Son of Man.
NET No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.
etc...

John (Elias - Elisha) was clearly not Elijah since claiming he was Elijah creates a contradiction in Scripture:

John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

The only possible way for there to be no contradiction is for Christ to be Elijah and John to be Elias/Elisha.

I've personally spent time checking this, while comparing all of the verses; this is a fact. I suggest you do the same, read all the verses about Elijah and Elisha and see which way works (without any contradictions) and which way doesn't work (because it renders the text contradictory)

There is no other option that works, you can quote any scripture that you like. Do the above exercise if you doubt it. It only works one way (and that therefore proves it to therefore be the right way - God is not the Author of confusion). Doing the exercise proves this beyond any shadow of a doubt.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is NOT [the author] of CONFUSION, but of peace, as in all communities of the holy people.

Why dont you take all of these translations when it comes to the actual verses we are talking about?

You literally have zero ability to answer the questions I posed to you concerning all the other Scriptures that contradict your ideology. Why wont you directly answer them?

Is it Elisha or Elijah? According to literally every single translation in existence except your Antichrist Teachers made up garbage, all of them say Elijah.

What qualifications does John have that would lead us to believe he can understand Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic and thus would understand how to properly translate Scriptures?

Please show us how he can be right per his qualifications vs literally the entire mass of humanity that has translated these Scriptures to be Elijah.

Please speak about the Prediction in Malachi 4 that literally say Elijah will be the one to come before Christ?

Please speak about Elijah and Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration together?

[QUOTEJohn (Elias - Elisha) was clearly not Elijah since claiming he was Elijah creates a contradiction in Scripture:][/QUOTE]

No it doesnt, I literally explained it, you are the one that makes it contradict. Of course you dont actually address what I have stated and speak to how it is incorrect, because you can not think for yourself...

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is NOT [the author] of CONFUSION, but of peace, as in all communities of the holy people.

You spew nothing but contradiction and confusion, everything you say goes directly against Scripture and we can all see it, I hope you can one day, until then Id love to see you actually address my questions and use your own brain and words and not Johnnys to rebut what I have written. If I wanted to talk to Johnny Id ask him here, which I have asked you to invite him on this site so we can go directly to the horses mouth, but he must be to afraid to come here because he is yet to show his face...

 

[bible_student]

I put it to you that you are throwing the baby out with the Catholic bathwater ;-)

The trinity doctrine is confusing (as well as contradicting many scriptural passages) as well as requiring a complete suspension of critical thinking and reasoning (and 100% faith and belief in the church's so-called "authority" that it is so, because they say it is, even though it makes zero sense and isn't what the Bible says and plus having to believe that God is wrong) to be able to "believe" it, and even then it would be extremely difficult.

Especially if you enjoy studying the Bible, and then as a result constantly having to deal with the confusion it (the trinity) brings. That right there is a clue, because God is not the Author of confusion.

I understand that people think it out of ignorance, if they haven't actually read the Bible for themselves, because they trust the church to tell them. But unfortunately, the churches lie.

Once that horror is discovered and seen, why would anyone want to go back? Once the bell has rung, it cannot be "unrung".

There is absolutely no benefit whatsoever to believing in it and further I believe that people who won't stop once they are shown that it violates the Scripture are causing themselves to be punished.

 

[bible_student]

You literally have zero ability to answer the questions I posed to you concerning all the other Scriptures that contradict your ideology. Why wont you directly answer them?

I've already done the exercise for myself. The best way is if you do it. It takes considerable time to pull all the verses up together.

Your problem is you won't want to believe it even if it is shown to you because you think everything depends on not believing it.

 

[bible_student]

Why dont you take all of these translations when it comes to the actual verses we are talking about?

You literally have zero ability to answer the questions I posed to you concerning all the other Scriptures that contradict your ideology. Why wont you directly answer them?

Is it Elisha or Elijah? According to literally every single translation in existence except your Antichrist Teachers made up garbage, all of them say Elijah.

What qualifications does John have that would lead us to believe he can understand Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic and thus would understand how to properly translate Scriptures?

Please show us how he can be right per his qualifications vs literally the entire mass of humanity that has translated these Scriptures to be Elijah.

Please speak about the Prediction in Malachi 4 that literally say Elijah will be the one to come before Christ?

Please speak about Elijah and Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration together?

John (Elias - Elisha) was clearly not Elijah since claiming he was Elijah creates a contradiction in Scripture:]

No it doesnt, I literally explained it, you are the one that makes it contradict. Of course you dont actually address what I have stated and speak to how it is incorrect, because you can not think for yourself...



You spew nothing but contradiction and confusion, everything you say goes directly against Scripture and we can all see it, I hope you can one day, until then Id love to see you actually address my questions and use your own brain and words and not Johnnys to rebut what I have written. If I wanted to talk to Johnny Id ask him here, which I have asked you to invite him on this site so we can go directly to the horses mouth, but he must be to afraid to come here because he is yet to show his face...

I also find your posts to be extremely offensive (and I do mean in the EXTREME) and so because of the revulsion this keeps creating in me for your obscene words, I don't really see any reason to even bother. I don't think it really deserves a response, even this is more than it deserves.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

The trinity doctrine is confusing (as well as contradicting many scriptural passages) as well as requiring a complete suspension of critical thinking and reasoning (and 100% faith and belief in the church's so-called "authority" that it is so, because they say it is, even though it makes zero sense and isn't what the Bible says and plus having to believe that God is wrong) to be able to "believe" it, and even then it would be extremely difficult.

Especially if you enjoy studying the Bible, and then as a result constantly having to deal with the confusion it (the trinity) brings. That right there is a clue, because God is not the Author of confusion.

I understand that people think it out of ignorance, if they haven't actually read the Bible for themselves, because they trust the church to tell them. But unfortunately, the churches lie.

Once that horror is discovered and seen, why would anyone want to go back? Once the bell has rung, it cannot be "unrung".

There is absolutely no benefit whatsoever to believing in it and further I believe that people who won't stop once they are shown that it violates the Scripture are causing themselves to be punished.

I suspect the message you are trying to promote will have a warmer reception during the Tribulation. @Daciple and I may disagree on whether we might theoretically be there to carry on that conversation but I think we both see that you are far from the Gospel right now.

Perhaps you need to ditch JAHs version and become a student of the real Bible?

 

[Camidria]

@bible_student I agree with @Red Sky at Morning Please for once just go into your inner room, take out your KING JAMES BIBLE, go on your knees and ask Jesus to give you scripture, pray seek Jesus....

 

[bible_student]

The catholic doctrine is blasphemy.

This is easy to discover from reading the KJV alone.

Christians everywhere have been brainwashed by the catholic cult into believing that they must believe it, and because of the clever technique used, it is very hard to undo. The way they worded it says that in order to be saved you must believe the trinity doctrine (a lie and the opposite of what is true).

 

[Daciple]

@Daciple I don't know where your pov came from per se ie who you were arguing with on here, i didn't bother to check because i cba.

Always helps to have context but eh who cares right?

What made Joseph smith false?

He contradicted the Bible plain and simple, there are many other reasons, like IDK making False Prophecies and what not, but in the end, once he contradicted the Bible and made up garbage like YHWH being a man on another planet who followed Mormonism correctly so he could be the God of this planet, well that makes him False.

Same basic reason why Muhammad is a False Prophet, he clearly contradicts the Bible, over and over, only willfully ignorant people who reject the clear teachings of the Quran would make a case that Muhammad didnt contradict the Bible.

You always failed in that regard.

If you say so buddy, the difference is I dont agree with your Gnostic (aka Occult) Interpretations and twisting of both the Bible and the Quran that you have to do in order to even hope to get them to agree. Clear reading of Scripture shows they contradict, period...

Josepth Smith claimed to communicate with an angel called Moroni. Said angel was even said to have been a sailor in a past life amongst many other things. These ideas, do not fit in with bible theology. There is no record in the bible of any angel called Moroni or having a past life.
Josepth Smith had no connection with the Abrahimic tree, he neither belonged to the bloodline nor did he come at a point in time of any relevance to judeo-christian history.
Did he foretell anything? i don't know if he did, but i imagine if he did it would have been false.

So Muhammad claimed to communicate with an Angel, that was unnamed until some "Christian" relative told him it was actually Gabriel, however the way in which the Angel that came to Muhammad and Gabriel as described in the Bible, contradict each other. I really dont care to explain the differences but they are obvious to anyone who reads the Biblical Description of Gabriel and the way he acted compared to the Angel that came to Muhammad.

Now how is this so different with prophet Mohammad?

Well its not so dissimilar, but I dont expect you to acknowledge or see it... Muhammad and Joseph Smith share many similarities.

I see you're quick to reject based off your own assumptions about what islam is, based off the arguments of many muslims.
However each time i have presented you with a far superior argument that carries depth and serious logic, you have told me i'm not a muslim.

I am quick to dismiss you as a Muslim because you reject central tenets of Islam plain and simple. Even the Muslims on this board reject your ideologies as being Muslim. You add things into your ideology that are prohibited by Islam, you bring as I stated before Gnostic or Occult "understandings" into your views which are diametrically opposed to both Christian and Islamic teachings.

You can call yourself anything you want but I know you are not a Muslim or practice Islam as directed in the Quran, you are closer to an Occultist with Muslim terms on top of it. In the same manner I say this to you I also say that to Art who lies to people on this site calling himself a Christian when in fact he is a Gnostic which is an Occultist with Christian names on top of it...

So by that same logic, was Jesus a true jew or a false jew? since his thinking clearly was different by the majority of his people.

Jesus never incorporated Occult ideologies into His Teachings, in fact He outright rejected those who tried to do just that. Jesus never contradicted the Bible, Jesus spoke the Truth. You contradict the Bible and the Quran in your futile attempts to marry the two and do so by bringing other sources and beliefs into the mix which are opposed to clear Biblical and Quranic teachings...

The assumption that islam regards the bible as corrupted.
As a matter of FACT the Quran affirms the truth/guidance/light of the previous scriptures. In the PRESENT tense. I can and have posted various verses stating that fact.

This idea is 100% rejected by Islam point blank period. You can give all the reasons you personally dont believe that Islam or the Quran teach such things and more props to you, however all Muslims the world over absolutely and definitely believe and teach that the Bible has been corrupted. In fact that is the major explanation as to why the unnamed Angel came to Muhammad, to correct the flawed previous Scriptures.

Now with that said, my perspective is that the Quran does teach that the Scriptures were correct at the time of Muhammad, and thus throws into contradiction most of what is written in the Quran and the teachings of Islam. There is definitely a willful ignorance that one must have to accept the teachings of Islam and the Quran. However I am sure that is needed to make the Quran make sense, since it contradicts itself continually...

It is even comical when someone like you wants to tell me what the Quran says, there is much irony in that given even you don't know what it really says.

Right I dont know what it says because I cant read the verses for myself and understand them right? Clearly you are the only one qualified to translate and understand the Quran, I mean you know better than all the bias translators...

You talk about spirit vs flesh, Jesus said the flesh dies but the spirit does not die. right? in the Quranic verse on the crucifixion, it says "he appeared to die". This verse, is one that's revealed in such a way to test people's perspective.

So here is where you start with your Occult ideologies that are not held within either Christianity or Islam. The Quran is clear, those who say Jesus died are not right, they are wrong. Jesus never died and instead was taken up and Allah made it appear that it was Jesus who died.

You can give any explanation you would like about YOUR own personal perspective and made up Religion but it does not align with Islam or the Quran. We have been over this aspect before and you go on here to give the actual Islam doctrine and perspective and then your personal disagreement with it. Great you disagree with Islam, guess what, you are not a Muslim, congrats!!!

So rather than carry this absurd idea of a lost authentic gospel and a lost version of christianity..and seeing paul as an imposter who destroyed christianity..i find the Quran supports Paul.

Congrats, you reject a central teaching of Islam, and thus you are not a Muslim!! Just like I have stated and every Muslim on this board has stated. And of course they have to have this central teaching because unless someone starts bringing in Occult ideologies into the mix, there is no possible way to marry the Bible and the Quran.

No Muslim states Paul and the Quran mix, they instead state what you have stated, which is that Paul is one of many people if not the most primary person who has actually ruined the message of Christ and that Jesus didnt teach what Paul teaches. I mean you have so called Christians on this site that try and state the same thing, however just like you are not a Muslim and Art isnt a Christian, these so called Christians are not really Christians because they reject and go against Scripture.

Its really easy to call people False or not a True Follower of a Religion when they go directly against clear Scripture and reject parts of Scripture. You fit that bill man...

However the Quran does says Jesus is the WORD OF ALLAH. Since 'the Son' was just a symbolic way to describe the Word..and the Quran says Jesus is His Word...then how is islam rejecting the actual core idea? it isn't, it is rejecting terms that are easily misinterpreted by stupid people..and face it most people are stupid.

However the concept itself is something that Islam utterly and totally rejects 100%, the Logos IS God period. To make the statement that God came in the Flesh as Christ is 100% against Islam, to speak that Jesus is the Son in the IDEA of the LOGOS is to directly contradict the Quran. Therefore regardless of the terms, the IDEAS behind them are completely at odds with each other. You will have to make huge end arounds and other rejections/additions to each Scripture to get Islam and Christianity to agree on this subject.

The fact is there is nothing INCORRECT about the Biblical Scriptures calling Jesus the Son of God, and the Quran outright rejects Christ being called the Son of God, so no matter what you want to state, the Bible and the Quran contradict here and can not be compatible, ever.

I've made these arguments many times over, it is clear to me you are not really intelligent enough to grasp the bigger picture.

Lol yes because I dont agree with you, that means I am not intelligent enough to comprehend what you are saying sure bud..

It is really this simple, I dont believe you, you are wrong, you are not intelligent enough to grasp this simple fact I suppose...

I've made these arguments many times over, it is clear to me you are not really intelligent enough to grasp the bigger picture.

-God blessed Ismael, not many have that privilege. God promised to make him a great nation and raise 12 princes/rulers from him
let's delve deeper on this.
look at how great the greek, persian and roman empires were. Yet they were only relevant because they had control over the temple mount/temple at a point in history. They are the beasts in the book of Daniel.
God saying HE will make Ismael a great nation, clearly means something far far greater than those beast systems.

I wonder what that was?

Lets actually look at the Scriptures and see if that was already fulfilled or not?

Gen 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.

17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

So 2 things I want to point out here:

1) Ishmael was promised to be a Great Nation, and that Great Nation would be comprised of 12 independent Nations, just like Israel was. Israel was actually 12 independent nations united together as Israel. This was the promise given to Ishmael. So as long as we can see that 12 nations came from him THEN we can know that the prediction was completely fulfilled. The idea of Great simply means large.

2) This is another MASSIVE discrepancy between Islam and Christianity, and honestly is what makes up one of the biggest funadmental difference between what Muhammad states vs what the Bible records. That would be WHO is the Seed and the Promise. Of course as we see in red here, Issac is the Seed and the Promise and everything associated with it, is given to HIM. However Islam contradicts this and replaces Issac with Ishmael stating Ishmael is the one who was to receive the Promise.

The Quran/Islam also records Abraham taking Ishmael up the mountain instead of Issac, because it is clear whomever it is that was going to be sacrificed THAT is the Seed and to whom the Promise would be given. The ramifications of this completely affects both Islam and Christianity, and there is no possible way to rectify this discrepancy either Ishmael was to receive the Promise and be the Seed or Issac, only one was given the Promise can not have both.

Regardless to your point, if Scripture show that Ishmael received 12 Nations, then the Promise about him was already fulfilled and therefore there is absolutely no need to look anywhere else in History for a fulfillment. So what does Scripture tell us?

Gen 25:13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,
14 And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.

Well what do you know, Scriptures records that the Promise was fulfilled, THAT is the END of everything promised to Ishmael, there is nothing else to come to him or his descendants according to the Bible. Everything else is Promised to Issac and then thru his Seed which of course is Jesus.

Since Scripture has shown the fulfillment of the Promise given to Ishmael anything else that you say apart from this doesnt matter, Muhammad isnt predicted or has any role with the God of Israel...

So clearly that promise to ismael was something that was meant to be fulfilled before the second coming of Jesus.

No there wasnt, the Promise was fulfilled, Ishmael became a Great Nation in the 12 Princes that came from him, that is the end of Ismael in Scripture nothing else was predicted to come, no matter what you think or believe. If you believe something else well then simply, you are wrong...

why would there need to be another prophet after Jesus?

There wouldnt be, in fact Scripture tells us there are NONE to come after Christ:

Matt 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

The Prophets ended after John/Jesus now the Gospel has come and there is absolutely no reason to ever have another Prophet. All things needed to know about God given to men is recorded in the Bible and the only thing needed to know about Salvation is in the Gospel. The Gospel ended the need for a Prophet, if you can wrap your head around that Scripture it is saying that since the Kingdom has come, Prophets are not needed, in fact it calls John (who is the GREATEST PROPHET) the least in the Kingdom. Whole lot Christ is teaching here, but for our discussion all you need to know is that Christ ended the need for a Prophet as He brought the Kingdom and all those in the Kingdom are greater than Prophets because they are all given the Holy Spirit and the POINT of a Prophet is to direct people to God. Those in the Kingdom preach the Gospel and direct people to Jesus, therefore they are considered greater than previous Prophets....

In case you still dont get it:

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Muhammad isnt a Prophet, and he definitely isnt a Prophet of the God of Jesus or Abraham, or Issac, or Jacob...

Dont care what you say about Muhammad it is in direct contradiction to what Christ says concerning Prophets...

That is why the law followed.

I agree to the extent that the Law was given because of their Sin. It was as you stated there to show them their Sin. The point of the Law is to direct people to Christ seeing their need for a Savior.

However it's fair for me to say, that you follow a false teaching, the trinitarian doctrine, from the roman church.

Meh, its only fair for me to say that you follow all sorts of false teachings, and the idea that the Trinity was started or incorporated into Christianity by the Roman Catholic Church is wholly incorrect. Not that you care, but go read the Didache, written about 200-300 yrs before the Roman Church that shows the Trinity as a core doctrine. Regardless the fact is, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God so the only logical explanation that marries the Scriptures stating the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God is the Trinity.

The only reason you still follow this doctrine and yet reject the roman church is because king henry 8th couldnt make his mind up on where to park his dick on any given day. So on one particularly bad day, he didnt find his german lutheran protestant new bride attactive..and he was aware of the bloodshed of catholics in the north of England, so he compromised and went 50-50..so he kind of stayed a little bit catholic but was still pissed off at the pope, so we had our own brexit.
That is the only fucking reason you are still a pagan. Remember this.

Lol yeah anything you say Mr Worship A Moon God and its Heathenistic Rapist Thieving p***phile Prophet...

So of course, just like the need for a law of Moses, there was need for a law similar to that..for gentiles, who were now like the israelites in Egypt, following pagan ideas and lost from God's grace.

Well if anyone here follows Pagan Ideas it is you brother, I mean you try and incorporate Buddhist and Hindi Ideologies into your made up False Religion all the time, let alone other Occult and Gnostic beliefs. IDK how you can possible accuse others of Paganism when you literally are taking outright Pagan Ideologies taught by people who straight up worship hundreds of gods and put them into your made up Religion... Pot calling the Kettle black if I ever have seen it there lol

A prophet for gentiles?

Already showed you that there are no other Prophets past Jesus and again if you bother to read Scriptures you would know that JESUS is the Prophet for Gentiles not someone else, or Muhammad or anyone else.

Is 49:5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

Is 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.
2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

Who does Scripture say this is about?

Luke 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

Jesus is the light to the Gentiles, Jesus is the Prophet to the Gentiles, Jesus and only Jesus has been given or needed to be right with God and to find Salvation. Muhammad is a nobody, a False Prophet and an Antichrist.

Makes perfect sense to me, that.

Because you believe a bunch of lies and want to marry them all together so of course making things up to fit them together makes sense to you. All that matters to me is Scripture, period.

-John 16, the spirit of truth who will 'speak only what he hears' 'telly ou all that is to come'
since your pagan belief tells you the holy spirit is fully God, co-equals with the Father/Son. Why did Jesus actually demote the holy spirit and say 'he is not better than me?' why did he say 'he will only speak what he hears'? that is not worthy of God. The holy spirit, speaks through people, so it stands to reason John 16's 'the comforter/spirit of truth' revealed the truth/prophecies through A particular prophet.
I wonder who, right?

What are you talking about? Jesus didnt demote the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus doesnt demote Himself for listening and doing what the Father said to do.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

If you could understand these things properly, all you have done is shown why they are all equal, working together for the Glory of God. The Holy Spirit directs people to Christ, Christ does what the Father tells Him, they all work together in perfect unity. Christ cant do anything apart from the Father, the Holy Spirit cant do anything apart from Christ, it literally is showing the unity of the Godhead. However since you are still Spiritually Blind you cant truly comprehend this, you want reject the One True God to prop up this False God and False Religion you have created...

And again to say that the Comforter ISNT the Holy Spirit is to contradict Scripture, so either you need to fall in line with the rest of the Muslims and say Scripture was tampered with, or reject your own thesis:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Which part of your False Religion and current Thesis do you want to reject there bud, the Scriptures being correct that Muhammad had that state that the Comforter is the Holy Ghost and therefore CAN NOT be Muhammad, or that the Scriptures are tampered with because they are wrong here and the Comforter is actually Muhammad.

Regardless your wrong, Ill let you pick on which aspect you would like to admit your wrong about...

christians replaced jews as the inheritors of the vineyard...
then islam came?
muslims held jerusalem for longer than jews and christians combined.
But let's just ignore that.

Yep because it literally has NOTHING to do with the physical area of Jerusalem. First off the Parable says the SON of the Vinemaster came to them and they killed Him, yet Islam and Muhammad rejects God having a Son, strange. Anyhow if you UNDERSTOOD what this was talking about you would comprehend what the Vineyard represents. Lets just have Jesus tell us what the Vineyard represents:

Matt 20:For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

The Land Mass isnt what Christ is talking about, He is talking about the Kingdom of Heaven, you know exactly what He says has come and ENDED THE PROPHETS in Luke 16:16. So the correct understanding of BOTH these Parables is that the Kingdom of Heaven/God which is SPIRITUAL and has NOTHING to do with an Earthly Land Mass was given to the Jews first to watch over, however when God aka the Vinemaster sent His servants to receive the Fruits aka the Prophets, then the husbandmen aka the Jews beat them and turned them away. Finally the Vinemaster aka God sent His SON aka Jesus to them the Jews, they KILLED Him, so what is the response of the Vinemaster? To take away the KINGDOM and give it to those who will produce and give the Vinemaster GOD the Fruits.

What is Jesus Kingdom? Is it the Land Mass of Israel?

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Jesus kingdom has NOTHING to do with that Land Mass, the fact that you think because Muslims have controlled the area longer than Jews or Christians shows just how incredibly blind you are to literally everything Jesus taught concerning Himself and His Kingdom. The Kingdom has been handed over to the Gentiles (which INCLUDES ARABS) and whomever it is that Repents and believes on Him as God and Savior. We who follow Him have been given the Kingdom, that is SCRIPTURE, and since you and Muhammad contradict it, you both need to be cast out.

I hope you Repent of following that liar and follow Christ and get Born Again so you can partake in the Promise given to Issac NOT Ishmael, and become an inheritor of the Kingdom of God....

yeh false prophet derp

Yeah definitely a False Prophet, he contradicts the Bible continually, and again the fact that he proclaimed himself a Prophet shows hes False...

So are we awaiting the grace of God?

It has already came, He is called Jesus Christ and if you knew Him then you would know without a doubt that the Grace of God is here.

just like the law of Moses was broken, it wasnt meant to be THE solution

Well that isnt what Scripture teaches, the Law of Moses wasnt broken, might want to start understanding and reading Scripture man...

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

The Law wasnt at fault it was us, and it is also quite interesting to note that there are only TWO COVENANTS and well Islam doesnt even mention any of this and definitely doesnt direct anyone into the New Covenant, the one created and sealed by Christs Blood.

Islam is wrong and Muhammad is a False Prophet, they both contridict the Bible on every single major tenet, but hey enjoy making up your own Religion in a futile attempt to marry them...

 

[Daciple]

I also find your posts to be extremely offensive (and I do mean in the EXTREME) and so because of the revulsion this keeps creating in me for your obscene words, I don't really see any reason to even bother. I don't think it really deserves a response, even this is more than it deserves.

Sounds like a response from someone who cant actually address the argument presented, didnt really expect you to actually address them. So they stand...

 

[bible_student]

Sounds like a response from someone who cant actually address the argument presented, didnt really expect you to actually address them. So they stand...

Only in your mind.

 

[bible_student]

The simple reality, is I don't believe the same as you all and don't see us agreeing. However, I do appreciate everyone's efforts that came through in the debate (apart from that which was found offensive, disrespectful and insulting).

Hope everyone will have a good day.

 

[AspiringSoul]

How can there be a reasonable debate when a guy tells me I worship a moon God, despite that contradicting the Qur'an and my actual beliefs? Address us based on solid evidence not your derp derp logic.
failed to see Gabriel's effect on daniel in the book of Daniel. ignores God's promise to Ismael. Just throws out "gnosticism" "occult" terms to anyone.

You have any idea how dumb you come across? Embarrassing.

 

[AspiringSoul]

"Christians worship derp gawd"
Derp

My criticism of Christianity is direct. I don't need to make anything up. Quite simply the trinitarian doctrine is not in the Bible. Therefore you follow something else.

 

[AspiringSoul]

In the parable of tenants Jesus said "vineyard"
Isaiah 5 tells us

The vineyard of the Lord Almighty
is the nation of Israel,
and the people of Judah
are the vines he delighted in.
And he looked for justice, but saw bloodshed;
for righteousness, but heard cries of distress.


If Jesus meant kingdom of God as some heavenly place, why would people be living in heaven and killing the son?
Because derp.

How could I reply to dissected posts filled with so many shit arguments?

 

[lovesoul]

This is why we do not belong to any churches. False teachers. Preaching what the people want to hear, not what they need to hear. We have never found a church that focused on Yeshua's teachings. Now, we've only been to southern denomination churches and nondenominational but still. We gave up. Because truly, it's an everyday, all the time relationship with our Creator and it's up to you to have that relationship and read and so on. You can do that yourself and don't need a pastor. Though, sometimes it would be nice to have a local community or church that did just that but we haven't found that.

 

[Daciple]

How can there be a reasonable debate when a guy tells me I worship a moon God, despite that contradicting the Qur'an and my actual beliefs? Address us based on solid evidence not your derp derp logic.
failed to see Gabriel's effect on daniel in the book of Daniel. ignores God's promise to Ismael. Just throws out "gnosticism" "occult" terms to anyone.

You have any idea how dumb you come across? Embarrassing.

Yes my friend your response of derp derp to my post indeed conveys to all your superior intellect and highlights my stupidity, quite embarrassing indeed...

 

[AspiringSoul]

Yes my friend your response of derp derp to my post indeed conveys to all your superior intellect and highlights my stupidity, quite embarrassing indeed...

well what else am I supposed to say?
Don't accuse me of believing in a moon God when you know full well I don't..and all in response to my point that the trinitarian doctrine is Roman/pagan in its design.
What I find funny is that you say you believe in the trinity yet Jesus himself in John 16 relegated the status of the holy spirit as less than himself just as he repeated his own status"the son can do nothing except by the Father"
"It is the Father in me"
Yet somehow that makes the son AND the holy spirit co equals with the Father in Godhead?
don't make me laugh.

notice i'm not attacking the bible or authentic christianity, but the roman doctrine? that is what 'contradicts the bible', something you seem to be obsessed with pointing out about another religion but can't look at your own self.



Here are a few minor examples of how we differ

me: John 16, Jesus said the holy spirit/spirit of truth will 'only speak what he hears'. 'He will tell you all that is to come'. isn't the process of transmission through people/a person? Or does the holy spirit just speak?
you: it's not Mohammad, omg you're so absurd it's not mohammed it is the holy spirit.

you actually missed the point. "He will guide to to the whole truth" "He will tell you what is to come". When did this happen?
I'm obv not unaware of the post-ascension experiences of the apostles and the epistles that came from them, ive learnt a lot from them myself..however Jesus also said

Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you

And when He is come, He will reprove the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment:

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.


Your argument that it's 'not Mohammad, it's the holy spirit' completely misses the point. The holy spirit speaks through people. It is a person inspired by the holy spirit through whom this would be revealed. That's why Jesus said 'unless I go away' ie this person would come after Jesus.

John 20:
20 And when He had so said, He showed unto them His hands and His side. Then were the disciples glad when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, “Peace be unto you. As My Father hath sent Me, even so send I you.”
22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said unto them, “Receive ye the Holy Ghost.

The holy spirit was already in them when Jesus was here. Yet he was saying"Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you"

It's more the function/purpose the holy spirit had in the world post-Jesus changed. By the time Mohammad came, the christians were following the trinitarian doctrine.

Plus the significance of what Jesus said
8 And when He is come, He will reprove the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment:

That didn't happen with christianity post-ascension.
reprove/convict= THE LAW!!

I guess it is too difficult for you to grasp. These same verses also prove the trinitarian doctrine is wrong, since you claim to believe the holy spirit is fully God. If it is fully God, then why does it say this?
He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears,

in my version, the holy spirit revealed the revelation and law to Mohammad.
_________________________________


me: the parable of tenants
you: kingdom of God/heaven...


“For the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a man that is a householder, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers into his vineyard.

Jerusalem symbolises the kingdom of heaven within. Isaiah 5 told us the vineyard was Jerusalem.

_____________________________________

you: Gabriel didn't reveal his name until the uncle-in-law of Mohammad told him it was Gabriel (implying that this means it was satan)

Firstly, that isn't a rebuttal in itself, it doesnt reveal anything wrong IF that was the case. There's no place in the bible where it says 'if an 'angel' comes to you and doesnt tell you his name, it is satan'.
Mohammad didn't belong to a prophetic tradition himself, so how would he know who that is?
that's why he had to seek knowledge from a christian concerning the matter.

of course christians historically claimed that it was a 'scary' experience therefore it had to be satan.
However the wondeful thing about the bible is it exposes your bs...it gives us precise examples of when people (eg Daniel) was terrified upon seeing Gabriel. So a man who didn't have any pre-knowledge/theology or belong to a prophetic/religious tradition, experiencing terror on that vision...doesnt prove it is a satanic experience at all.
if anything, im sure satan would come offering temptation. Aren't there people who worship 'lucifer' saying he comes to them as a 'beautiful angel in his true form'?

______________________________________________________

Anything else?
just baseless attacks, moon god derp n wot not.

You didn't delve deeper on the promise given to Ismael and it's implications. if the beasts of Daniel became great empires...how much more is a 'great nation' blessed by God?
the only time that's happened is with islam.

it is poor to dissect posts and seperate each argument, when you group them together, it makes perfect sense how it fits in with islam.

You really shouldn't be coming up with baseless attacks to promote your own religion. i wouldnt accuse a sikh of worshipping idols for example, i would have to talk to a sikh on the merits of their own beliefs and explain why they're wrong and why islam is right.

In this case you've done this a little bit when you talked about Jesus being the prophet for gentiles and not Mohammad.

however
John 16
“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

See, Paul compared faith with works by talking about how the Patriarchs were 'reckoned by faith' eg before the law of Moses was revealed.
in that sense, the gentiles post-ascension were akin to the patriarchs, living under 'faith'.
But what changed? why did God see fit to reveal the law of Moses after the israelites were already under faith?
it's because after the israelites lived in egypt, they became paganised....and thus the 'truth' on which this grace/faith was built upon, was lost.

It's the same with gentiles/christianity...once it became the religion of Rome, it became paganised and after that, no more 'grace'.
The faith christians lived under cannot exist when you have derp beliefs.
you know, the trinitarian doctrine contradicting the hell out of the NT.

being a 'light for gentiles' never closed the door on any future prophet/revelation since John 16 itself was a confirmation of a future revelation.
"he will speak only what he hears"
that is how revelation works mate.

As for calling him a paedo. the shia hated aisha and accused her of adultery. The abbasids ruled persia and appointed persian scholars (imam bukhari, muslim, tirmindi etc) to compile hadith favourable to their own rule. Thus they countered the shia version by making aisha into a child bride.
hadith are not 'divine' in my eyes, they come AFTER the Quran and therefore have no divine confirmation. THe bible however does, so you know...my level of thinking is vastly different to yours. I can read/study hadith as a source of historical information and take a lot from them, whilst also being aware of what hadith collections actually are.

There are enough sources out there that indicate Aisha was anywhere from 15-25 aswell..and im not closing my eyes to the opposing arguments. i have read all the christian arguments on this topic. It is amusing that christians seem to regard the hadith as absolute truth in this instance but otherwise claim islamic scripture is totally forged? i mean there are christians on here claiming the real mecca was petra and someone else wrote the Quran. make up your minds.

anyway look
Genesis
20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation.

8 Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”

i'm in a better position than you because i regard both sides. I acknowledge everything in the bible but also understand the role islam played and how it fits in with the message of Jesus inc his second coming.
i'm able to make 'sense' of it, whereas you aren't...
basically when you disregard islam, there's nothing precise in your book about the appearance of islam in a negative sense. all you can do perhaps is make it up eg calling him an 'antichrist'. even though Revelation, Zechariah etc are full of evidence regarding the identity of the Antichrist (a fake messiah who claims to be God and sits in the temple), that doesnt fit with Mohammad at all.

 

[Camidria]

This is why we do not belong to any churches. False teachers. Preaching what the people want to hear, not what they need to hear. We have never found a church that focused on Yeshua's teachings. Now, we've only been to southern denomination churches and nondenominational but still. We gave up. Because truly, it's an everyday, all the time relationship with our Creator and it's up to you to have that relationship and read and so on. You can do that yourself and don't need a pastor. Though, sometimes it would be nice to have a local community or church that did just that but we haven't found that.

We are part of this church https://www.everynation.org/ they are worldwide, and they preach truth. I have found that ours has amazing balance, that they focus on Jesus and making Disciples, there is a link on their website if you want to see if there is one in your area. Perhaps they might be an answer?

What I have learned about church though is that every church has a weakness and strong points - no church is perfect because they are run by imperfect people. I will go where I feel Jesus has added us, when your mindset is on serving, forming relationships and having a family at church then it becomes easier being part of that family. I call my church a family because that is really what they are to me