What Kind Of Christian Sects Are Going To Heaven?

[grateful servant]

@Kung Fu,
What do you think?
Do you think God would use His omnipotence to inhabit a body of flesh, live out a sinless life and in so doing, qualify Himself as a "second Adam" in order to be the antithesis of the sinful "first Adam" in order to break the curse on man?

I know you are adressing KF, but God doesn't need to do that! If He chooses to forgive someone He simply forgives them. Anyways, I look forward to reading KF's reply.

 

[grateful servant]

It's pretty clear to me that Muslims are self-righteousness and believed their good works will get them to paradise. Ask for forgiveness and never goes back to their sins? This must be a joke. I'm willing to bet everything that all Muslims went back to the sins that has been "forgiven" just like the Catholics do every so and then. Committed sins then ask for forgiveness, rinse and repeat (license to sin?). Knowing that you can never be sinless should spark an awakening that you need a savior. You guys are cursed for believing in a false prophet and a false gospel. Done, peace.

2 Peter
2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Galatians 1
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Floss. You really got it wrong about Islam and Muslims.

Prophet Muhammad said, “Be deliberate in worship, draw near to God, and give glad tidings. Verily, none of you will enter Paradise because of his deeds alone.” They said, “Not even you, O Messenger of God?” The Prophet said, “Not even me, unless God grants me mercy from himself. Know that the most beloved deed to God is that which is done regularly even if it is small.”

Your verses that you quote to condemn us are not even the words of Jesus himself but anonymous writers of the NT. Doesn't that mean anything to you?

And by the way, Prophet Muhammad preached the same central message that Jesus taught as is recorded in gospels. You are doing yourself a great disservice. May God guide you.

 

[Lady]

I know you are adressing KF, but God doesn't need to do that! If He chooses to forgive someone He simply forgives them. Anyways, I look forward to reading KF's reply.

While you await, you could check it out for yourself at this link which gives a short highlight of this topic.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-second-Adam.html

 

[JoChris]

Floss. You really got it wrong about Islam and Muslims.

Prophet Muhammad said, “Be deliberate in worship, draw near to God, and give glad tidings. Verily, none of you will enter Paradise because of his deeds alone.” They said, “Not even you, O Messenger of God?” The Prophet said, “Not even me, unless God grants me mercy from himself. Know that the most beloved deed to God is that which is done regularly even if it is small.”

Your verses that you quote to condemn us are not even the words of Jesus himself but anonymous writers of the NT. Doesn't that mean anything to you?

And by the way, Prophet Muhammad preached the same central message that Jesus taught as is recorded in gospels. You are doing yourself a great disservice. May God guide you.

Can you please give links or cut-and-paste text from Quran/ other Islamic texts where:
Muhammad teaches that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, that he did die physically ON the cross AND rose from the dead on the 3rd day, that Jesus is God incarnate, that Jesus is the only way to God for salvation?

 

[KoncreteMind]

According to the Apostles' Creed, it is also said that Jesus descended into hell and rose on the third day, though it is clearly understood that he didn't go to hell as punishment, but rather as the victor, and to preach to those imprisoned there. Here, then, is a Protestant version of the specific reference (I think it is a legitimate website) ...

I further think that this part of the credal statement is based, in part, upon at least these three verses of scripture, though there are more:

Well heres what Im getting at. Say I commit a crime and Im about to be punished by the judge and you go say "Im going to stand in KM's place". Wouldnt that mean that the punishment meant for me (eternal hell as far as God is concerned) transfers to you? Jesus going to hell to preach (and only for 3 days) doesnt sound like the punishment we would have gotten had he not stood in our place (according to the christian belief).

By the way @KoncreteMind , it's good to be back in your company and to hear your perspective on things.

The feeling is likewise Serv. I was wondering if you got turned off by the last shutdown as I didnt you for awhile along with others like Tarriko, spektrall and others Im probably forgetting. So its good to see you back again

 

[Haich]

That is what Haichi said, ask for forgiveness after you have sinned. Everything good, thanks

I don't think you understood what I said. If you were a sinner and you ask for forgiveness we believe God forgives you as long as you abstain from the sin. If you ask for forgiveness then carry on sinning with the belief that if you ask for forgiveness all is ok, then it's not accepted because you have no interest to better yourself.

We don't have a free ride we're all accountable for actions regardless of our belief in God and his messengers

 

[grateful servant]

While you await, you could check it out for yourself at this link which gives a short highlight of this topic.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-second-Adam.html

Red Sky already told me all I need to know, thanks though!

 

[Haich]

Any Muslims here willing to swear that they never went back to the sins that has been forgiven by Allah?

Of course we have we're human no one is some supreme human being that can live a sinless life

Some people struggle with alcohol, pre marital sex etc. What God really wants to see is our struggle to overcome our demons and acknowledge he made these things unlawful for our benefit. God knows we'll sin, when we finally realise that the sin is one of the causes of our woes and is a great obstacle and barrier to achieving a closeness with God, that's when you know you've become a truth worshipper

 

[Haich]

L

Is God immortal or mortal?

Did your god die for you or for your sins?

lol didn't know God could die

 

[grateful servant]

Can you please give links or cut-and-paste text from Quran/ other Islamic texts where:
Muhammad teaches that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, that he did die physically ON the cross AND rose from the dead on the 3rd day, that Jesus is God incarnate, that Jesus is the only way to God for salvation?

You missed it Jo -
I said : "Prophet Muhammad preached the same central message that Jesus taught as is recorded in gospels." Not what others said about Jesus or what church doctrine proclaims about him.

If you can give me cut and paste text from the Bible where Jesus says that he is the only begotten son of God, that he will die physically ON the cross AND rise from the dead on the 3rd day, that he is God incarnate, and that he is the only way to God for salvation .... If you can prove those four points from Jesus mouth without any other way to interpret or understand his words, I would accept it. But you can't and you won't. Because it's just not there.

The Quran however is clear that God is One and we must submit our wills to Him, worshipping Him Alone - just as Jesus said in the gospels.
The Quran is clear the deeds that lead to God's Pleasure and Heaven and the deeds that lead to God's Punishment and Hell - just as Jesus said in the gospels. It's clearly there, why deny it? The greatest Commandment and the Golden Rule. The sermon on the mount. Admonishment to the pharisees and hypocrites. the parables that were meant for those who would understand them - the children of Israel and not for those who were polytheists like the Romans living among them.

Inshaa'Allah one day I may post the side side comparison between Jesus' teachings and Muhammad's teachings. May God soften your heart and open it to the truth that will lead to your salvation, Amen.

 

[grateful servant]

Any Muslims here willing to swear that they never went back to the sins that has been forgiven by Allah?

Floss maybe it would help you if you heard the explanation from Jesus himself:

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times."

If we are told to forgive one another over and over again, what do you think of the Forgiveness of Almighty God? Of course He will forgive us over and over again as long as we seek it from Him.

 

[AspiringSoul]

@AspiringSoul - I wondered if you had found resonance with your ideas in the teachings of Rosicrucianism? You rightly identify the fact that many religions are like streams flowing into the same ocean.

I am not suggesting you should pursue this philosophy as I believe it to be spiritually toxic but it's nature is to bring together diverse views into a unity of 'God' of which we are all part.

The problem is that this ocean claims a route for ascension to godhood, without repentance, where you are your own saviour...

You may not have come across this stuff, but anyone watching Harry Potter will have been given a basic course in Rosicrucianism.

I don't want to sound judgemental here, and if I didn't care, I wouldn't say anything.

I read an ebook of theirs on the topic of kabballah but tbh i found it to be incoherent nonsense.There are plenty of 'orders'/schools of thought out there though so it's always best to combine their ideas to get a better overall viewpoint.

Well the key here is in my view, the 'ocean' itself is not God but the expression of the Essence. so whilst it is the level where God is revealed in 'fullness', the light refraction analogy fits.

 

[JoChris]

You missed it Jo -
I said : "Prophet Muhammad preached the same central message that Jesus taught as is recorded in gospels." Not what others said about Jesus or what church doctrine proclaims about him.

If you can give me cut and paste text from the Bible where Jesus says that he is the only begotten son of God, that he will die physically ON the cross AND rise from the dead on the 3rd day, that he is God incarnate, and that he is the only way to God for salvation .... If you can prove those four points from Jesus mouth without any other way to interpret or understand his words, I would accept it. But you can't and you won't. Because it's just not there.

The Quran however is clear that God is One and we must submit our wills to Him, worshipping Him Alone - just as Jesus said in the gospels.
The Quran is clear the deeds that lead to God's Pleasure and Heaven and the deeds that lead to God's Punishment and Hell - just as Jesus said in the gospels. It's clearly there, why deny it? The greatest Commandment and the Golden Rule. The sermon on the mount. Admonishment to the pharisees and hypocrites. the parables that were meant for those who would understand them - the children of Israel and not for those who were polytheists like the Romans living among them.

Inshaa'Allah one day I may post the side side comparison between Jesus' teachings and Muhammad's teachings. May God soften your heart and open it to the truth that will lead to your salvation, Amen.

Again, even atheists with reading comprehension can see that the Gospels when read in context say **those exact things.** They manage to dismiss it all through deliberate unbelief. Muslims have a different approach but same outcome.

Islam agrees with Christ's moral teachings only. That does not count as faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[rainerann]

You missed it Jo -
I said : "Prophet Muhammad preached the same central message that Jesus taught as is recorded in gospels." Not what others said about Jesus or what church doctrine proclaims about him.

If you can give me cut and paste text from the Bible where Jesus says that he is the only begotten son of God, that he will die physically ON the cross AND rise from the dead on the 3rd day, that he is God incarnate, and that he is the only way to God for salvation .... If you can prove those four points from Jesus mouth without any other way to interpret or understand his words, I would accept it. But you can't and you won't. Because it's just not there.

The Quran however is clear that God is One and we must submit our wills to Him, worshipping Him Alone - just as Jesus said in the gospels.
The Quran is clear the deeds that lead to God's Pleasure and Heaven and the deeds that lead to God's Punishment and Hell - just as Jesus said in the gospels. It's clearly there, why deny it? The greatest Commandment and the Golden Rule. The sermon on the mount. Admonishment to the pharisees and hypocrites. the parables that were meant for those who would understand them - the children of Israel and not for those who were polytheists like the Romans living among them.

Inshaa'Allah one day I may post the side side comparison between Jesus' teachings and Muhammad's teachings. May God soften your heart and open it to the truth that will lead to your salvation, Amen.

Even if you remove the dispute over the Trinity. Muhammad taught nothing close to the central message of Christ recorded in the Gospels. Jesus is the Messiah according the Gospels. He says in Luke 4:17-21

"The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to Him, and unrolling the scroll, He found the place where it was written:


18 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me,
because He has anointed Me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent Mel
to proclaim freedom to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to set free the oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.

20 He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. And the eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today as you listen, this Scripture has been fulfilled.”

Where does Muhammad teach that Jesus fulfills the role of the Messiah in that He is responsible for the message concerning the oppressed and captives becoming free. This is the authority he has been given, not Muhammad because a prophet and the promised Messiah are not equal. The Messiah is greater than a prophet. The Messiah does not only have a message to give of what is to come. He has a message that will bring freedom to those who are suffering. This is why the teachings of Christ are greater than the teachings of Muhammad that come later.

Jeremiah 31:31 also says that the Messiah would establish a new covenant with Israel

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make pa new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,"

When does Muhammad teach of the covenant that was created by the presence of the Messiah.

Jesus says in Luke 22:20
"And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood."

Basically, everything that Muhammad says contradicts the teachings of Christ from the Gospels.

If I am not mistaken, Muhammad presentation of the corruption of the Bible created the conclusion that the covenant was changed? How is it then that you and other Muslims can say that Muhammad teaches the true meaning of the teachings of Christ from the Gospels when he also depends on people believing that those same writings are corrupted in order to accept that he is the final messenger. That is a contradiction, but I don't think it is meant to be a contradiction, so it is more of a lie even if it is not intentional because it is only meant to serve as a comparison of some kind. It is more of a comparison to say that Muhammad is teaching the true teachings of Christ to try to persuade a Christian, or someone more familiar to Christianity to see Islam in a different light as representing something that is often considered a positive message.

Jesus' message is often taken very positively even by people who do not accept that He is the Messiah. This is evidenced by how often Christians are accused of being hypocrites in comparison to the positive way they see Jesus described in the gospels as wanting to love and help others. So, saying that Muhammad is teaching the true message of Christ from the Gospels is the same thing as trying to say that Islam is a positive message too because he is not literally teaching the true message of Christ from the Gospels. Muhammad teaches a completely different message of Christ where he is equal with the Messiah because he is a prophet. Accepting Muhammad's version of the teachings of Christ is more or less the same thing as saying, I picture that Jesus would say something more along the lines of what Muhammad teaches about Christ even though they do totally contradict the teachings in the actual Gospel. It is the same as saying I like this version of Jesus better, which is fine. It just doesn't demonstrate whether one is true and the other is false.

Muhammad doesn't actually even have any way of demonstrating that what he is saying is true the way we are told that Jesus demonstrated He was the Messiah in the Gospels by healing people and performing miracles.

If you want to believe in Islam, that is fine. Just don't pretend that Islam is teaching the message the of Christ from the Gospel because it isn't. It is a completely different message.

The Gospel is teaching that Christ is the Messiah, that His words are more than prophecy and have the power to set the captive free, that the power of His words will be evidence of the new covenant that will made with His blood. Muhammad doesn't teach any of these things.

 

[grateful servant]

Again, even atheists with reading comprehension can see that the Gospels when read in context say **those exact things.** They manage to dismiss it all through deliberate unbelief. Muslims have a different approach but same outcome.

Islam agrees with Christ's moral teachings only. That does not count as faith in Jesus Christ.

You still aren't getting it. This is not about what (some) atheists think or what you say they think. The same can be said for athiests and Islam. https://www.youtube.com/results?q=atheists+converted+to+Islam. Should that be proof for you that Islam is the true religion?! I don't think you would accept that as proof (unless God guided your heart to it.)

Of course Islam agrees with Christ's moral teachings. But more importantly, Islam agrees with Christ's teachings about God and how we are to submit ourselves to His Will and love Him "with all our hearts, souls and minds".

It seems to me that you are dodging the real issue here, but at the very least, you have to admit that your faith is not supported by the actual words of Jesus Christ. Rather, your faith is supported by what was said about him. That is why you will never be able to prove those 4 points from Christ's words alone.

 

[grateful servant]

Muhammad taught nothing close to the central message of Christ recorded in the Gospels.

Jesus is the Messiah according the Gospels.

Jesus is the Messiah according to to the Quran too.

He says in Luke 4:17-21

No Muslim denies that the coming of Jesus the Messiah was foretold in the earlier scriptures. The coming of Muhammad was also foretold in the earlier Scriptures. Jesus even foretold of Muhammad as is mentioned in the Gospel. But as the Jews denied that their prophesies referred to Jesus, likewise the Christians denied any reference to Muhammad!

Where does Muhammad teach that Jesus fulfills the role of the Messiah in that He is responsible for the message concerning the oppressed and captives becoming free. This is the authority he has been given, not Muhammad because a prophet and the promised Messiah are not equal. The Messiah is greater than a prophet. The Messiah does not only have a message to give of what is to come. He has a message that will bring freedom to those who are suffering. This is why the teachings of Christ are greater than the teachings of Muhammad that come later

First off, the message of Muhammad is that of Jesus Christ. Secondly, what do you think "Messiah" means? Third: Jesus hasn't completely fulfilled his role as Messiah yet. It will be fulfilled when he returns in the Last Days - Mission complete. Fourth: You do not know what authority Muhammad was given because you have never studied the Quran or Islam except perhaps through the lens of a biased Christian.

Jeremiah 31:31 also says that the Messiah would establish a new covenant with Israel
"Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make pa new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,"

When does Muhammad teach of the covenant that was created by the presence of the Messiah.

Like I said, his mission as Messiah is not complete. According to our beliefs, Jesus will return in the Last Days and will rule by the Law of the Quran. He will not accept any other religion except Islam. This would be his role of establishing the kingdom of God in the earth and this would mean his establishing the new covenant with Israel. Nowhere in the OT, Jesus' words in the Gospel, or the Quran does "establishing the New Convenant" mean requiring people to believe that Jesus is God and son of God and God incarnate who was murdered for the sins for all of humanity. "The Last Supper" story you quote from Luke was actually first mentioned in Corinthians by Paul. (Corinthians written @57 AD Luke @63 AD and Matt. @ 67 AD.) and Paul said he recieved it from his lord, not something that the disciples told him about. SO what you are reading in Luke and Matt is not an "eye witness" account actually.

Basically, everything that Muhammad says contradicts the teachings of Christ from the Gospels.

Basically, it does not. May God open your eyes and heart.

If I am not mistaken, Muhammad presentation of the corruption of the Bible created the conclusion that the covenant was changed? How is it then that you and other Muslims can say that Muhammad teaches the true meaning of the teachings of Christ from the Gospels when he also depends on people believing that those same writings are corrupted in order to accept that he is the final messenger. That is a contradiction, but I don't think it is meant to be a contradiction, so it is more of a lie even if it is not intentional because it is only meant to serve as a comparison of some kind. It is more of a comparison to say that Muhammad is teaching the true teachings of Christ to try to persuade a Christian, or someone more familiar to Christianity to see Islam in a different light as representing something that is often considered a positive message.

This is your emotions speaking and the same old accusation. The more positive thing to believe is that God will forgive you all your sins and grant you Heaven without anyone's blood having to be shed!

Jesus' message is often taken very positively even by people who do not accept that He is the Messiah. This is evidenced by how often Christians are accused of being hypocrites in comparison to the positive way they see Jesus described in the gospels as wanting to love and help others. So, saying that Muhammad is teaching the true message of Christ from the Gospels is the same thing as trying to say that Islam is a positive message too because he is not literally teaching the true message of Christ from the Gospels. Muhammad teaches a completely different message of Christ where he is equal with the Messiah because he is a prophet. Accepting Muhammad's version of the teachings of Christ is more or less the same thing as saying, I picture that Jesus would say something more along the lines of what Muhammad teaches about Christ even though they do totally contradict the teachings in the actual Gospel. It is the same as saying I like this version of Jesus better, which is fine. It just doesn't demonstrate whether one is true and the other is false.

Really rainerAnn, I'm sorry, but it seems you are rambling now. Muhammad did not teach a different message than Christ.
Muslims love, honor and respect Christ and agree he had a very positive message - the good news!

Muhammad doesn't actually even have any way of demonstrating that what he is saying is true the way we are told that Jesus demonstrated He was the Messiah in the Gospels by healing people and performing miracles.

You haven't read the truth about Muhammad and what he has done for humanity. If you are interested in learning more please let me know, I am happy to make some reccomendations.

If you want to believe in Islam, that is fine. Just don't pretend that Islam is teaching the message the of Christ from the Gospel because it isn't. It is a completely different message.

The Gospel is teaching that Christ is the Messiah, that His words are more than prophecy and have the power to set the captive free, that the power of His words will be evidence of the new covenant that will made with His blood. Muhammad doesn't teach any of these things.

I don't have to pretend . Like I said to another user - Perhaps one of these days I'll post a side by side that shows how Muhammad and Jesus preached the same message. I'm sorry if you don't like it but aside from twisting the meanings, you won't be able to deny it. I don't have any beef with you here and I like alot of the contributions you make to the forum, so please just keep it civil and have a good day or night wherever you are. Peace.

 

[Artful Revealer]

Can you please give links or cut-and-paste text from Quran/ other Islamic texts where:
Muhammad teaches that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, that he did die physically ON the cross AND rose from the dead on the 3rd day, that Jesus is God incarnate, that Jesus is the only way to God for salvation?

"Prophet Muhammad preached the same central message that Jesus taught as is recorded in gospels."

Jesus being the Son of God, having died on the cross for our sins and the resurrection is the central message of the Gospel. Perhaps you should read it again.

 

[Artful Revealer]

If you can give me cut and paste text from the Bible where Jesus says that he is ...

This is such a ridiculous request. Ok, prove to me that Muhammad is Allah's final messenger, but I want to see where Allah says it, not Muhammad.

 

[JoChris]

You still aren't getting it. This is not about what (some) atheists think or what you say they think. The same can be said for athiests and Islam. https://www.youtube.com/results?q=atheists+converted+to+Islam. Should that be proof for you that Islam is the true religion?! I don't think you would accept that as proof (unless God guided your heart to it.)

Of course Islam agrees with Christ's moral teachings. But more importantly, Islam agrees with Christ's teachings about God and how we are to submit ourselves to His Will and love Him "with all our hearts, souls and minds".

It seems to me that you are dodging the real issue here, but at the very least, you have to admit that your faith is not supported by the actual words of Jesus Christ. Rather, your faith is supported by what was said about him. That is why you will never be able to prove those 4 points from Christ's words alone.

Then atheists have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. One form of spiritual deception for another.

But Jesus does say all those things, just in different sentences and different wordings.
The apostles all say the same things, in different wordings, different styles and different emphases depending on which church they wrote to.

Again *echo* if atheists can read that Jesus = God according to the bible.... and Muslims cannot....

... that means your writings from many centuries later directly contradict the New Testament and you may as well be physically blind when you look at the bible or any other Christian writings.

 

[rainerann]

Jesus is the Messiah according to to the Quran too.


No Muslim denies that the coming of Jesus the Messiah was foretold in the earlier scriptures. The coming of Muhammad was also foretold in the earlier Scriptures. Jesus even foretold of Muhammad as is mentioned in the Gospel. But as the Jews denied that their prophesies referred to Jesus, likewise the Christians denied any reference to Muhammad!

First off, the message of Muhammad is that of Jesus Christ. Secondly, what do you think "Messiah" means? Third: Jesus hasn't completely fulfilled his role as Messiah yet. It will be fulfilled when he returns in the Last Days - Mission complete. Fourth: You do not know what authority Muhammad was given because you have never studied the Quran or Islam except perhaps through the lens of a biased Christian.


Like I said, his mission as Messiah is not complete. According to our beliefs, Jesus will return in the Last Days and will rule by the Law of the Quran. He will not accept any other religion except Islam. This would be his role of establishing the kingdom of God in the earth and this would mean his establishing the new covenant with Israel. Nowhere in the OT, Jesus' words in the Gospel, or the Quran does "establishing the New Convenant" mean requiring people to believe that Jesus is God and son of God and God incarnate who was murdered for the sins for all of humanity. "The Last Supper" story you quote from Luke was actually first mentioned in Corinthians by Paul. (Corinthians written @57 AD Luke @63 AD and Matt. @ 67 AD.) and Paul said he recieved it from his lord, not something that the disciples told him about. SO what you are reading in Luke and Matt is not an "eye witness" account actually.

Basically, it does not. May God open your eyes and heart.

This is your emotions speaking and the same old accusation. The more positive thing to believe is that God will forgive you all your sins and grant you Heaven without anyone's blood having to be shed!

Really rainerAnn, I'm sorry, but it seems you are rambling now. Muhammad did not teach a different message than Christ.
Muslims love, honor and respect Christ and agree he had a very positive message - the good news!


You haven't read the truth about Muhammad and what he has done for humanity. If you are interested in learning more please let me know, I am happy to make some reccomendations.

I don't have to pretend . Like I said to another user - Perhaps one of these days I'll post a side by side that shows how Muhammad and Jesus preached the same message. I'm sorry if you don't like it but aside from twisting the meanings, you won't be able to deny it. I don't have any beef with you here and I like alot of the contributions you make to the forum, so please just keep it civil and have a good day or night wherever you are. Peace.

I feel the same way about your contributions and appreciate that the level headed way you makes it possible to have a for a more productive discussion on difficult subjects. With that said, I also don't feel like I have anything really to add to what I said either. So I will leave it at that for now and maybe we will continue this discussion again at another time. Take care.