Dr. William Campbell destroyed by Dr. Zakir Naik on scientific errors in the Bible MUST WATCH!!

[TokiEl]

OK - do you accept or reject the concept of Lordship Salvation, i.e:

https://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html (for a positive presentation)

http://www.jesusisprecious.org/false_doctrine/lordship_salvation/invading_churches.htm (for a not so positive one).

I try not to get entangled in man made terminologies that evenually turn into traditions...

I'm not saying do not believe in Jesus Christ nor His gospels... but the Scriptures say there is more to salvation than that.

And that is a fact.

 

[TokiEl]

You make the assumption that the Christians who believe you are saved by grace care little for obedience. This may be an incorrect one to presume upon.

We both know that a lot of churches today are more or less whorehouses.

And that is of course because they think salvation is believing in Jesus Christ. And that once they believe they are saved and sealed until eternity.

Nothing can take away their salvation... or so they think. I got words for them.

 

[TokiEl]

I suppose that motivation by GUILT could be effective, but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is imparted to believers, really is far superior.

It's not about guilt but love.

If you love me you will obey my commandments...?


I shall not sit and say who got the Holy spirit or not because i do not know... but I know He convicts of sins.

 

[TokiEl]

Jesus died for everyones sins so 2000 years later the world could be repopulated by shemales.

You got a problem with that ? L0L

Adam and Steve up the **$ please.

 

[Etagloc]

Typically when muslims esp new muslims are influenced by salafism as you have been (and im not attacking you with this) they are taught a puritanical version of islam that says 'this is not islam' 'show me evidence from Quran/sunnah' and what this does is, it completely eradicates over 1400 years of muslim development, of ideas, of hikmah that's been built from the study of the Quran and hadith.

Now you might look at that as a bit. wishy washy since it contains no concrete text material you can directly read, right? So let me put it another way
did you know that Abu Bakr RA was close to the end of his life when he said, he finally understood the meaning of Surah Fatiha?
Surah Fatiha is the first Surah of the Quran
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Fatiha
THIS is from that link
"I will teach you the greatest Surah in the Qur'an before you leave the Masjid (Mosque)."
He held my hand and when he was about to leave the Masjid, I said, `O Messenger of Allah! You said: I will teach you the greatest Surah in the Qur'an.'
He said, Yes.
Al-Hamdu lillahi Rabbil-`Alamin,

This very short surah, is the greatest in the Quran...
here's how this translates
1. In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.
2. Praise be to God, Lord of the Worlds.
3. The Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
4. Master of the Day of Judgment.
5. It is You we worship, and upon You we call for help.
6. Guide us to the straight path.
7. The path of those You have blessed, not of those against whom there is anger, nor of those who are misguided.

now ask yourself, what did Abu Bakr learn from this that took him decades to learn?
look closer
Lord of the Worlds.
suppose one man had traversed the entire 7 heavens and witnessed the extent of Allah's creation?
For example, have you read the book of Enoch? have you read Ibn Arabi's 'Journey to the Lord of Power'?
if you read those you would maybe think of this world with a new mindset.
Now what if you add modern science/astronomyspace exploration to this?
what if on top of all that you had experienced those 'worlds' yourself?
who knows, where it began and ended for Abu Bakr?
So are you someone who is trying to make the Quran less or more?

So you're asking where I gained my perspectives on 'thoughtforms' it's hard to sum up, at least 20 years of my life, the experiences/thought patterns ive had in that time. What ive witnessed directly, what ive had confirmed from other learned muslims etc.
But inshallah I will answer you.


Quran and Sunnah do not talk about "thoughtforms" or the thoughtform theory you describe.

Just like Surah Fatiha contains meaning within it that neither of us know, that Abu Bakr RA learnt so much so that at the height of faith he learnt the 'true meaning of Surah Fatiha' you cannot appreciate entirely what the Quran says/doesn't say.

In islam, the attitude held by the Alims/students of the Quran was what? they believed that to have 'one' interpretation of the Quran, was pathetic.
THey were open minded and wished to attain as many possible interpretations.

So it's important for you to realise that the Quran is obviously much deeper than you realise. Example in the story of Solomon AS, there was one man who worked for him, who posessed knowledge of the Torah. Through his knowledge he was able to teleport.
Do you have that ability after you've read the Quran?
Do you want to bet such knowledge is in the Quran?
but it depends on the depth of your insight.


STILL so far ive not answered you my bruh, i will do now.

(4) It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.
(سورة ق, Qaaf, Chapter #50, Verse #16)
this is not a direct answer, but in light of what ive already said
what do you suppose this could mean?
when you posess an understanding of the malakut, the world of forms, the mind etc..you will realise obviously everything is energy...
these 'suggestions' emanating from the soul..are they like sound ie come and vanish? or do they, remain?

this is called waswas
in this case, waswas that come from, our own soul
in the context, dark waswas
but there can of course be good waswas, it depends on the condition of the nafs.

if i say waswisu are thoughtforms, you will say 'nope'
but you're not in a position to tell me that are you? do you suppose you know everything ever written on waswisu?

if satan can put waswas in us and we can all put waswas in each other and d oyou think this is literal ie do i need to say some words to you or look at you? it is on a subconscious level.

BUT there is an entire dimension of thought...
now tell me buddy, have you explored it? i have!!
i can't physically show you what i learnt.


@Serveto since we talk about this stuff now and then check this. when it comes to psychology of dealing with waswas/thoughtforms, humans are rather creative, since it is all in the mind and we can literally create our own rules.
for example we can imagine and concentrate on an astral weapon that destroys thoughtforms
great
but then the otherside comes back with something more powerful
oh shit
and each time it becomes a game......
but FAITH means i can just say 'nothing is greater than Allah, so hear is a weapon that has God's name on it..............
end result the thoughtform is totally destroyed.

but when i was initially stuck and didnt know 'the rules' i visited a pious individual who was in his mid 90s, i could barely understand him
he actually looked into my 'case' shall we say...and he wrote down some words in arabic on a peice of paper..he told me they represent 7 types of satan im influenced by
folded the paper and told me after reading adhan and the protection prayers.....to take my left sandal and beat that paper 7 times on the floor and then burn it.
this sounds mad to anyone who reads but, you had to experience it..it was a great experience..
i felt a calmness in those days i hadnt had for years.

keep in mind, i wasnt some 'patient' i wasnt sick per se, what made me sick was more the obsession with knowing how to deal with that world.
who wouldnt want to know how to prevent certain types of waswas? it's a natural right to protect ourselves.

we live in a world absolutely full of waswas and bad energies
but my man wants to tell me 'the quran doesnt say that'
let's make the Quran into an irrelevant book that has no meaning and no capacity to heal us.

(4) And say "O my Lord! I seek refuge with Thee from the suggestions of the Evil Ones.
(سورة المؤمنون, Al-Muminoon, Chapter #23, Verse #97)

what is it about the suggestions themselves that makes them so relevant ie not only protection from the evil ones, but protection from the suggestions themselves?






Hinduism
I don't know if you know this, but Allah tells us that HE sent messengers to every nation.
Do you want to bet, Allah sent messengers to india?
india is 5000 years old
So if that's the case then who was Krishna, rama etc?
what did they teach?
what are the laws of Manu?
what about Advaita Vedanta, monothiests who believe in ONE Isvara (God)?
What about the fact that hindu philosophy influenced persian and greek philosophy, which, due to hellenisation teached jewish thought and eventually became CHRISTIANITY?

the incarnation of the logos, which is who Jesus is
is a hindu idea.

but i must stress, HINDU is like saying JEW
what was the original name of judaism? maybe it was Torah?
Dharma and Torah have the same meaning.

isnt it true that the ismaelites became pagan but still believed in Allah,. albeit a pluralistic Allah
isnt it true the israelites did exactly the same by believing in a pluralistic elohim?
same thinghappened to those who follow 'Dharma'
and there were many ppl who followed the wrong belief and strayed from the truth but there were many who also taught the ONENESS of God.
There were many who were wrongly called hindu but were not authentic hindu, merely being associated with the religion because they shared the land and language.


Muslims have over 1000 years of co-existence with hinduism, i suppose nothing was learnt?
one of my fav sufi muslims was Bawa Muhaiyadeen, he had some amazing insight when it came to hinduism.
sufi inayat khan, another great one, again great insight in hinduism.

Prophet SAW said
"my eyes sleep but my heart never sleeps"
prophet SAW said "when you sleep your soul returns to ALLAH"

so the prophet SAW was fully conscious beyond the delta brainwave state? what if, i try that? can i? i failed every time, when i meditate i usually fall asleep too.......but nonetheless i learnt that hindus have it and it is called TURIYA CONSCIOUSNESS except in their belief when you sleep your ATMAN (spirit) returns to BRAHMAN!!

it goes back to what ive said all along that the metaphysical reality is one and the same......but humans differ in interpretation.

in the Quran, it says
"the 7 heavens and of the earth, their like therof"

it's a reference to bani Adam and the fact we are microcosms of the whole creation (7 heavens) just like we have 7 levels of the soul which the hindus call Chakras.

i went into depth on this once and you just mocked it.
you were like "occult satanism threemasons, jews, kafirs, donald trump"

I'm sorry bro but inshallah over time i think as you live as a muslim, Allah wil lguide you to new experiences and knowledge.
and the more you search for answers esp in the Quran, you'll find it is there.

again remember it took Abu Bakr RA decades to learn the meaning of Surah Fatiha and he was second only to prophet SAW

in my thinking, the major ancient belief systems all originate from the same one...
if you explore the metaphysics in egyptian mythology...for example the character called Nu
it is Khidr AS actually
and if you look, Musa AS was an egyptian israelite, raised in the house of pharoe and taught the wisdom of egypt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nu_(mythology)
do i believe he was literally 'a god' of course not..i imagine the original mythology was superior to how it is presented now.



Nor is there any verse that teaches "as above, so below,"
what are you on about?
all the things on earth are first 'written' above

it's like a code, software and and front end

what we type here for example, it can all be altered if you had access to the hosting account and could alter the code
or you can edit your posts and type whatever you want
the end result is what is finally available in the post.
can you edit anyone elses post here? nope
but if you accessed the hosting account then sure you could.

there's vast amounts of perspective you're missing out on..but generally i look at you as someone who 'might' understand.
maybe ive been overestimating you?


btw thanks for making that thread to mock abu layth
i have found him to be an incredibly insightful genius.
i dont need to agree with his views.
its enough forme to see a muslim who has half a brain.

Look man, my post wasn't mocking you.

That was not the point at all.

And as I've said- I'm not really new to Islam... i was into Islam way before I ever had anything to do with VCF....

but in any case- yes, of course I am for the Salafis.

So it is not a personal thing between me and you on either side. It is simply a question of.... what could reasonably be called as being closer to the Salafi point of view (in a sense, I would consider myself a Salafi)... as opposed to..... however you would characterize (seriously- I'm not mocking you, I don't know how you would characterize your view)

okay... so.... for sake of argument.... to simplify this we could frame this as a thing between a "Salafi" point of view (I'm not a sectarian but yes I'm closer to the Salafis in my thinking).... and... however you would characterize your view....

so I mean.... it's really that simple.... some people are Sunni, some are Shia.... I'm closer to the Salafis... you're seemingly into something else....

I'm not talking down to you or mocking you, we both recognize each other as intelligent and there's no need for talking down or mockery on either side......

you mention Plotinus.... I know him as "Plotino" but I know who he is and I know about his stuff..... I know about the chakras, I know about other stuff, I doubt what you've studied is that far off.....

also the Abu Layth thing like I said was to avoid the hadith thread getting derailed.... that's a whole other topic..... but that was against his ideas, not mocking him personally....

my thing is this.....

and firstly, I want to reiterate..... neither this post nor my last are meant as any sort of attack on you personally.... I'm simply not out to do that....

Of course I reserve the right to attack ideas and you're free to do the same.... this is about ideas, not about attacking people..... and I hope that's mutual....

anyways, my thing is this....

if you want to explore the metaphysics of ancient Egyptian mythology.... or study Hindu chakras... or get into occult concepts like "as above, so below" (that that's an occult concept is so well known it shouldn't even be debated)

I mean you're free to do those things.... but Islam and.... things like Hindu chakras.... those should be kept completely separated.... there is nothing in the Quran about chakras..... mixing Islam with a bunch of other stuff in a blender..... yes- I object to that! and the Salafis object to that and as I see it, they're right to.....

the whole concept.... as I see it.... of the Salafi approach.... is simply... and I'm sure you've heard this before.... pure Islam.

If I'm talking to someone about Islam- I want to be sure I'm presenting pure Islam. If I'm mixing that with my personal theories about chakras which I came up with- then I'm doing that person a disservice. Now if I have some personal theory about chakras or ancient Egyptian metaphysics- if I want to talk about that, I need to make it clear- those are my personal theories. That's separate than Islam. I can't just come up with something and then say "this is Islam".... if I say "this is Islam" and I'm presenting my personal theories... that's not cool and people should check me.

Because when we're dealing with personal theories on Ancient Egyptian metaphysics or Ancient Greek Neoplatonism- that is speculation.

According to Islam- the Quran is the verbatim word of Allah.

So for us as Muslims- we believe the Quran is the absolute truth. The Quran is absolute truth, facts, unquestionable.

If you want to study ancient Greek philosophy, I don't really care. This is nothing personal. I am not mocking you. I don't want to insult you.

The problem I have is that you are mixing absolute truth with speculation. You and I are not infallible. If one of us comes up with a theory on our own- we should not mix that with absolute truth of the Quran. I can't just come up with a theory and say "this is Islam". If I'm going to say "this is Islam"- it needs to be something which comes from either the Quran or the Sunnah.

Again, this is not about you, me or anyone else personally- this is about ideas.

Another thing is, of course, a person who comes from a Muslim background is not greater or lesser than a revert. The test- is "who has more taqwa?".

Take Christianity, for example. Familiarity breeds contempt. Someone who grows up with Christianity might treat Christianity more casually than a person who comes from some pagan tribe and who becomes a Christian later in life. The latter might be the more dedicated. Or the former might be more dedicated.

So again- it's not about me and it's not about you. Nothing on here is really about the posters (or at least it shouldn't be). It's about the ideas. It's about the content.

 

[AspiringSoul]

You got a problem with that ? L0L

Adam and Steve up the **$ please.

well, i think the world is far worse spiritually than it was when Jesus came yet they want to say that he came to save the world.
You can't even cop out by saying people need to be born again...
if people NEED to be born again then why isn't anyone being born again?
it goes along the same line as other lines of enquiry like if christians are baptised and received the holy spirit, where did discord and division come from?
if you say it's because there were imposters who didnt belong and were not truely joined with Jesus......then that is the precise problem.

christianity asserts that through the sin of Adam and Eve we were all born into sin and now thanks to Jesus we are saved.
but we're not becuse merging with Christ is fail.
We didnt have to merge with Adam, we didnt need to make any effort whatsoever to be born in sin, but we have to clearly do something to be 'born again'.


of course, the argument then changes where christians stop dealing with the nature of sin and instead argue about the 'accountability' of sin...as in
it doesnt matter how bad the conditions are, everyone who believes is saved and wi ll go to paradise
except that negates the whole 'born again' theme which leads to further problems.

Basically for christianity to have a real claim and not be false, the world clearly needs to show that people really are born again and dead to the spirit when becoming christian.




put it this way, if i started reading 'real' testimonies of people suddenly ovecoming addiction after turning to christianity i would take it seriously.

now even if we talk about accountability of sin, forgiveness and enterance to paradise
Jesus was very harsh, he dismissed a lot of ppl and clearly even said he will reject many on the last day.

The whole appeal of christianity is supposed to be its ability to literally cause people to die to the flesh.

 

[elsbet]

It's not about guilt but love.

If you love me you will obey my commandments...?


I shall not sit and say who got the Holy spirit or not because i do not know... but I know He convicts of sins.

Indeed.. the holy Spirit convicts us of the sin, that we would turn from it-- the obedience being the evidence. That is not the same as an admonishment from man or his pulpit-- you wretch.. how could you think of sinning after what has been done for you? That is not of God. That kind of abasement is typically of the Enemy. We know, and more importantly, God knows.

ROMANS 7:24-25

 

[AspiringSoul]

Look man, my post wasn't mocking you.

That was not the point at all.

And as I've said- I'm not really new to Islam... i was into Islam way before I ever had anything to do with VCF....

but in any case- yes, of course I am for the Salafis.

So it is not a personal thing between me and you on either side. It is simply a question of.... what could reasonably be called as being closer to the Salafi point of view (in a sense, I would consider myself a Salafi)... as opposed to..... however you would characterize (seriously- I'm not mocking you, I don't know how you would characterize your view)

okay... so.... for sake of argument.... to simplify this we could frame this as a thing between a "Salafi" point of view (I'm not a sectarian but yes I'm closer to the Salafis in my thinking).... and... however you would characterize your view....

so I mean.... it's really that simple.... some people are Sunni, some are Shia.... I'm closer to the Salafis... you're seemingly into something else....

I'm not talking down to you or mocking you, we both recognize each other as intelligent and there's no need for talking down or mockery on either side......

you mention Plotinus.... I know him as "Plotino" but I know who he is and I know about his stuff..... I know about the chakras, I know about other stuff, I doubt what you've studied is that far off.....

also the Abu Layth thing like I said was to avoid the hadith thread getting derailed.... that's a whole other topic..... but that was against his ideas, not mocking him personally....

my thing is this.....

and firstly, I want to reiterate..... neither this post nor my last are meant as any sort of attack on you personally.... I'm simply not out to do that....

Of course I reserve the right to attack ideas and you're free to do the same.... this is about ideas, not about attacking people..... and I hope that's mutual....

anyways, my thing is this....

if you want to explore the metaphysics of ancient Egyptian mythology.... or study Hindu chakras... or get into occult concepts like "as above, so below" (that that's an occult concept is so well known it shouldn't even be debated)

I mean you're free to do those things.... but Islam and.... things like Hindu chakras.... those should be kept completely separated.... there is nothing in the Quran about chakras..... mixing Islam with a bunch of other stuff in a blender..... yes- I object to that! and the Salafis object to that and as I see it, they're right to.....

the whole concept.... as I see it.... of the Salafi approach.... is simply... and I'm sure you've heard this before.... pure Islam.

If I'm talking to someone about Islam- I want to be sure I'm presenting pure Islam. If I'm mixing that with my personal theories about chakras which I came up with- then I'm doing that person a disservice. Now if I have some personal theory about chakras or ancient Egyptian metaphysics- if I want to talk about that, I need to make it clear- those are my personal theories. That's separate than Islam. I can't just come up with something and then say "this is Islam".... if I say "this is Islam" and I'm presenting my personal theories... that's not cool and people should check me.

Because when we're dealing with personal theories on Ancient Egyptian metaphysics or Ancient Greek Neoplatonism- that is speculation.

According to Islam- the Quran is the verbatim word of Allah.

So for us as Muslims- we believe the Quran is the absolute truth. The Quran is absolute truth, facts, unquestionable.

If you want to study ancient Greek philosophy, I don't really care. This is nothing personal. I am not mocking you. I don't want to insult you.

The problem I have is that you are mixing absolute truth with speculation. You and I are not infallible. If one of us comes up with a theory on our own- we should not mix that with absolute truth of the Quran. I can't just come up with a theory and say "this is Islam". If I'm going to say "this is Islam"- it needs to be something which comes from either the Quran or the Sunnah.

Again, this is not about you, me or anyone else personally- this is about ideas.

Another thing is, of course, a person who comes from a Muslim background is not greater or lesser than a revert. The test- is "who has more taqwa?".

Take Christianity, for example. Familiarity breeds contempt. Someone who grows up with Christianity might treat Christianity more casually than a person who comes from some pagan tribe and who becomes a Christian later in life. The latter might be the more dedicated. Or the former might be more dedicated.

So again- it's not about me and it's not about you. Nothing on here is really about the posters (or at least it shouldn't be). It's about the ideas. It's about the content.

ok firstly about the salafi position. it's important not to disregard 1400 years of islam.....there are contexts on top of contexts. As muslims one of themost important orders given to us, is to seek knowledge. So seeking knowledge for personal growth and improvement is necessary.

Now i'll go offtopic and give you an example of how a salafi muslim views something and how i view it.., i want you to seriously think about this.

THe Mawlid, celebration of the birth of prophet SAW on aparticular date of the muslim calender.

The salafi's don't take part in it, they say it is bidah/innovation.
BUT, remembert his key point, islam is also about hikmah. Allah revealed the scripture and the hikmah.
So, when declaring something as bidah and then trying to shut it down, ppl of hikmah would consider the larger picture, if they try to reform islam, will it make it better or worse? what about the wider world, politics, colonialism etc?

so let's tackle this, my perspective.

A salafi will think like this


what the prophet SAW did
__________________________________________

bidah
____________________________________________

kufr


now if someone wishes to adhetre to the principles and way of life of prophet SAW, brilliant, i have no problem.

This is my understanding


divinely prescribed obligatons
___________________________________







HALAL









__________________________________
disliked
_________________________________
haram


here, bidah applies to anything that alters divinely prescribed obligations.
The mawlid is certainly not bidah. EVen if the prophet SAW didnt personally do it, doesnt matter. Prophet SAW didnt go to high school, do we drop out of school?

my version here, is much bigger and it puts thing in a better context. Not only that but islam is a religion that's meant to be felt, not just followed. In the Quran Allah says

(1) We sent Moses with Our signs (and the command). "Bring out thy people from the depths of darkness into light, and teach them to remember the days of allah." Verily in this there are Signs for such as are firmly patient and constant,- grateful and appreciative.
(سورة ابراهيم, Ibrahim, Chapter #14, Verse #5)
game changer
the 'days of Allah' are all the great stories of the prophets and believers. The story of the exodus, the birth of Prophet Jesus AS itself is commemorated and celebrated in the Quran.

See to me, islam is a religion that one shouldnt constrict. 1400 yrs of context matters. The mawlid when i was a boy, i saw people convert to islam on the day just because muslims invited them to eat with us!!!
i swear this is true.

about 10 years ago after the whole cartoon fiasco i went to the local mawlid event and we walked around the whole town. We encountered bnp/far right types but we handed them all food/drinks.
we walked through the salafi part of town and they hurled abuse towards us.


this so far doesnt touch the surface on the many views i hold towards/against the salafi mindset. To me, 1400 years of islam's development, new contexts and emergence of GREAT muslims, should not be overlooked at all.
for example muslims started colonising india and massacring hindus, looting them, taking their women as slaves.
the hindus defended their religion for centuries against muslims. Later when sufi islam emerged, the sufis arrived in india and were instead, respected because they posessed the very knowledge the hindus sought!!!!
bro think about this for a moment, i have spoken about our commonly shared metaphysical beliefs, the hindus who truely were seeking the truth saw it in the sufis.
YET Sheikh Moinuddin Chishti adopted the use of musical instruments. He did this, based on a particular hikmah and islam spread in india very fast.
This is about 4-500 yrs of violence!!

See, islam may not change, but people do change.
i used to think human nature doesnt change, but it does
because collectively people used to be in a state of islam/submission to Allah...and in their condition Islam could be enforced with relative ease......but later those conditions changed and people fell into hawa/passion and eventually ignorance/jahilliya
this is when muslims lost jerusalem and the start of the first crusade..and in that time period, sufi islam truely emerged as the 'solution'.
Now here is the main main point about salafism, it lacks the hikmah to appreciate the condition of the world. you cannot just force ppl to follow islam in a world where shit has happened.

go to turkey now, enforce islam, salafi islam........end result will be, they will all leave islam. remember arab nationalism and rise of wahabism, the turks are barely muslim these days. This is the 'hikmah' salafism has given us......

look at Bangladesh, same......except replace saudi with pakistan.


lastly, learning these things is not dangerous at all, it shows how little trust you have in Allah that you want to shun the per suit of knowledge.

 

[AspiringSoul]

@Etagloc bro i forgot to add this, when iw as talking about the waswas as thoughtforms, read this

(2) (Remember) when He covered you with a slumber as a security from Him, and He caused water (rain) to descend on you from the sky, to clean you thereby and to remove from you the Rijz (whispering, evil-suggestions) of Shaitan (Satan), and to strengthen your hearts, and make your feet firm thereby.
(سورة الأنفال, Al-Anfaal, Chapter #8, Verse #11)

Rijz is the lasting effect of those suggestions, it means 'suffering'.

so suddenly, these suggestions from satan leave suffering, so its not like random wind that comes and goes, this is now a very real energy that harms us in such ways we cannot even overcome the effects.

today how many ppl suddenly believe they are female instead of male? and is it not growing?
think about it, wasawas/suggestion leave a lasting effect on an individual, a rijz, that in turn changes a person to match the same condition as the original suggestion and in turn that soul then becomes evil...and in turn it produces the same waswa

longgg story short, the thoughtform concept is a more eloquent and deeper explanation on the nature of wasawas.

what type of, waswas exist in this world?

An egregore is a thoughtform, a creation of the human mind.
But unlike tulpas or servitors, an egregore is a manifestation of a group consciousness, which can become powerful enough to take on a life of its own. It becomes driven by the collective (and often unintentional) willpower of large numbers of people.
We’re not simply talking about spooky ghosts and evanescent poltergeists here, though (like Philip Aylesford, a rather popular tulpa experiment).
No, egregores can manifest in the form of nations, corporations, memes, and ideas. Concepts invented by the human mind.
The more these ideas are called upon or repeated or reinforced, the more powerful they grow, and the more likely they will become something beyond mere thought.
Examples of (possible) egregores include:

• Corporations – brands, logos
• Shared ideas – memes, urban legends, the Internet
• Nations – flags, culture, patriotism
• Spiritual or other group beliefs
• Paranormal entities and experiences – it’s possible that many of the paranormal experiences people have, such as NDEs and alien abductions, may very well be the result of a collective consciousness thoughtform

As you can see, egregores don’t need to be “conjured.” They can manifest over time through sheer awareness and acknowledgement by large groups of people. You need not be consciously aware to participate in the creation of an egregore.
Between What Is Real And What Is Not
Obviously, this is just the metaphysical point-of-view. You don’t have to believe the human mind can conjure ideas into anything physical.
But you do have to wonder: in this Information Age, in this connected world of constant media feedback, the Internet, and memes, at what point do our silly stories and shared beliefs become something…real?
Something out of our control?
The human mind is capable of extraordinary things. In the future, we’ll look at some of the stranger aspects of human consciousness, scientific explanations, and the possible formation of new egregores and thoughtforms. Stay tuned.

https://www.strangerdimensions.com/2013/03/25/on-egregores/

 

[Etagloc]

ok firstly about the salafi position. it's important not to disregard 1400 years of islam.....there are contexts on top of contexts. As muslims one of themost important orders given to us, is to seek knowledge. So seeking knowledge for personal growth and improvement is necessary.

Now i'll go offtopic and give you an example of how a salafi muslim views something and how i view it.., i want you to seriously think about this.

THe Mawlid, celebration of the birth of prophet SAW on aparticular date of the muslim calender.

The salafi's don't take part in it, they say it is bidah/innovation.
BUT, remembert his key point, islam is also about hikmah. Allah revealed the scripture and the hikmah.
So, when declaring something as bidah and then trying to shut it down, ppl of hikmah would consider the larger picture, if they try to reform islam, will it make it better or worse? what about the wider world, politics, colonialism etc?

so let's tackle this, my perspective.

A salafi will think like this


what the prophet SAW did
__________________________________________

bidah
____________________________________________

kufr


now if someone wishes to adhetre to the principles and way of life of prophet SAW, brilliant, i have no problem.

This is my understanding


divinely prescribed obligatons
___________________________________







HALAL









__________________________________
disliked
_________________________________
haram


here, bidah applies to anything that alters divinely prescribed obligations.
The mawlid is certainly not bidah. EVen if the prophet SAW didnt personally do it, doesnt matter. Prophet SAW didnt go to high school, do we drop out of school?

my version here, is much bigger and it puts thing in a better context. Not only that but islam is a religion that's meant to be felt, not just followed. In the Quran Allah says

(1) We sent Moses with Our signs (and the command). "Bring out thy people from the depths of darkness into light, and teach them to remember the days of allah." Verily in this there are Signs for such as are firmly patient and constant,- grateful and appreciative.
(سورة ابراهيم, Ibrahim, Chapter #14, Verse #5)
game changer
the 'days of Allah' are all the great stories of the prophets and believers. The story of the exodus, the birth of Prophet Jesus AS itself is commemorated and celebrated in the Quran.

See to me, islam is a religion that one shouldnt constrict. 1400 yrs of context matters. The mawlid when i was a boy, i saw people convert to islam on the day just because muslims invited them to eat with us!!!
i swear this is true.

about 10 years ago after the whole cartoon fiasco i went to the local mawlid event and we walked around the whole town. We encountered bnp/far right types but we handed them all food/drinks.
we walked through the salafi part of town and they hurled abuse towards us.


this so far doesnt touch the surface on the many views i hold towards/against the salafi mindset. To me, 1400 years of islam's development, new contexts and emergence of GREAT muslims, should not be overlooked at all.
for example muslims started colonising india and massacring hindus, looting them, taking their women as slaves.
the hindus defended their religion for centuries against muslims. Later when sufi islam emerged, the sufis arrived in india and were instead, respected because they posessed the very knowledge the hindus sought!!!!
bro think about this for a moment, i have spoken about our commonly shared metaphysical beliefs, the hindus who truely were seeking the truth saw it in the sufis.
YET Sheikh Moinuddin Chishti adopted the use of musical instruments. He did this, based on a particular hikmah and islam spread in india very fast.
This is about 4-500 yrs of violence!!

See, islam may not change, but people do change.
i used to think human nature doesnt change, but it does
because collectively people used to be in a state of islam/submission to Allah...and in their condition Islam could be enforced with relative ease......but later those conditions changed and people fell into hawa/passion and eventually ignorance/jahilliya
this is when muslims lost jerusalem and the start of the first crusade..and in that time period, sufi islam truely emerged as the 'solution'.
Now here is the main main point about salafism, it lacks the hikmah to appreciate the condition of the world. you cannot just force ppl to follow islam in a world where shit has happened.

go to turkey now, enforce islam, salafi islam........end result will be, they will all leave islam. remember arab nationalism and rise of wahabism, the turks are barely muslim these days. This is the 'hikmah' salafism has given us......

look at Bangladesh, same......except replace saudi with pakistan.


lastly, learning these things is not dangerous at all, it shows how little trust you have in Allah that you want to shun the per suit of knowledge.

Okay firstly, I intend this to be my last response in this discussion. You write long posts. I'm confident in my position but your posts are very long.

This is why I don't really want to debate Daciple. I don't mean this as a criticism. If someone agrees with your views or Daciple's views- they might enjoy the length.

You mentioned a Sufi mystic who apparently mixed music into... whatever it was he was doing.

Okay- and apparently he got approval from Hindus.... okay- so? I'm not worried about what Hindus think. Why should our religion be concerned about what Hindus? When we interpret the Quran- do we need to consult Hindus?

I don't care what Hindus think. I'm not a Hindu.

I'm concerned about what the Quran and the Sunnah have to say.

I don't care what the Bhagavad-Gita says. I don't what the Vedas say. I'm not a Hindu.

Moinuddin- apparently that's the Sufi who did... something with music.

Look, man. I don't even use prayer beads, much less music (music is haraam, btw).

The Christians, they must be extra Sufi. You go to the churches, they're breaking out electric guitars and rockin' for Jesus (PBUH).

I don't think I'm going to get excited if Snoop Dogg puts out a Sufi album and gets popular with Hindus. Or Eastern Orthodox Christians, or Western Orthodox Mormons or whoever. It's nothing personal against Hindus.

My thing is you are making this stuff up. This is not plain old, regular Islam- this is AspiringSoulism.

If you want to read Plotinus or Deepak Chopra or Ravi Shankar, I mean I guess you can do that. I read E Michael Jones and he's a Catholic. I enjoy his books on history but I don't mix his Catholicism with Islam.

Why do you need to mix Islam with Hinduism? Or Neoplatonism? Or Ancient Egyptian Metaphysics?

If I ask a Christian about Christianity- do I want them to give me a lecture about their theories on Hindu Chakras?

What does that have to do with anything?

I don't care about Hindu chakras. I don't care about what the Ancient Egyptians thought about metaphysics.

I don't follow Hinduism. I don't follow Ancient Egyptian Metaphysics.

I am fine with Islam. I don't feel any need to pick religions out of a hat and stick them in a blender and create a frankenreligion.

If you feel some need to study every other religion out there, I'm not saying don't do it. Just don't mix them with Islam.

When Christians promote Christianity to people, I don't see them quoting the Vedas. If you were debating a Christian and they went into a long monologue about Hindu Chakras- would that not be weird?

Does Joel Olsteen stand on the pulpit and lecture about Plato's theory of forms?

 

[Claire Rousseau]

Are believing and faith enough, or does one also have to repent and be baptized? And speaking of "belief," does one have to believe a certain way, not like Catholics or Oneness Pentecostals, for instance?

The ONLY requirement to be saved from Hell is to BELIEVE the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I always stress the Word “BELIEVE” because many have heard so much false, works-based, pseudo-salvation nonsense that they begin to gloss over the operative word : “believe”.

The reason we must believe on Christ is because He is the ONLY ONE Who walked this earth & lived His life without committing sin...(further proves His deity, as only God cannot sin).....that is why/how He was eligible to pay for OUR sins; He had NO sin of His own to pay for, and took on our sin in His body INSTEAD, and shed His innocent blood to wash away our sins before God.

His goodness/righteousness surpasses any amount of sin; He is that holy.

So when people buy into the lies of satan, thinking they can earn their way to Heaven on their own merit, they are falling for his oldest trick in the book: “Ye shall be as gods”.

Unless our life on earth is sinless, and we can say we are as good as Jesus, we fall short of God’s standards & are sinners in need of a Saviour.

I don’t know about you, but I cannot claim to even come close to the level of Jesus. I wouldn’t even dare to try to claim such an untruth, lest God strike me dead for lying .

So once you realize the serious truth of the matter, and how any chance you had at earning salvation has been shot to Hell since you’ve already committed sin, you then must destroy your pride so you can realize how unworthy you are God’s Kingdom.

That is crucial. Unless you give up all hope of being found worthy of God’s majestic Heaven by your own merit, you will never look to the Saviour for salvation, and will waste your life chasing a pipe dream, in a vicious cycle of sin, followed by guilt, vain good deeds, & emptiness....over & over again but never experiencing the pure joy, fulfilling peace & utter relief that shines through you like the brightest light—-shattering all your deepest fears and the blackest darkness that occurs the very moment you get saved.

God already knows we are unworthy to go to Heaven without His help. To admit it to Him, and to yourself......that is the ultimate act of submission—the complete surrender to His Will.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

It's not about guilt but love.

If you love me you will obey my commandments...?


I shall not sit and say who got the Holy spirit or not because i do not know... but I know He convicts of sins.

You see, I agree with you entirely here.

The difference comes when we create a genuinely born again hypothetical person who seems to continue in sin and care nothing for God's commands. As believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit who convicts you of sin, from my own experience I would say continuing in deliberate knowing sin brings about the Prodigal Son experience.

To continue that as a lifelong pattern may well result in God bringing judgement, even the maximum judgement of "sin unto death".

 

[vedasconservative]

Y'all are too devoted to a single flawed (so-called) religion. As for me, I believe that a lot of those 'holy' books you hold right now are pretty much corrupted. But indeed I found useful information right there (in all of them combined). If you're too close-minded to realize those books are just a human-written letters which most likely to be turned out wrong and not the perfect source of truth, then please go fuck yourself with your own thoughts and don't ever convince people to convert (or join) to your fucked religion. But if you insist, please prove it. Prove that your 'holy' book is perfect, have no flaw or contradiction.

Ok, this is what I found out about Abrahamic religions so far. The true Judaism were found thousand years ago, when the prophetic events between Abraham and Moses happened. Its Torah is so interesting for me to learn. Another books followed, to form what called Tanakh. Christianity called Tanakh as Old Testament, modified the order, added some more chapters, and create a section that's fully 'influenced' by Greek language: the New Testament (it's where the contradiction began, between the Old and the New). Then Islam, the most recent and flawed religion of them all (because it has the most modified book, Quran). Quran was made by the man who was demon possessed (Learn more about the satanic verses if you don't know about it). Many of the verses contradicted each other, and not stable, made for just a justification of Mohammed's sins. Indeed, some of the verses obtained (and still, modified) from other Abrahamic religions books, but the stability of Quran was too low to be called 'holy' book. Moslems even forced to have a prayer, pointed to a black box. Other Abrahamic religions knew very well that it's a sort form of idolatry. Please do your own research with mind opened, because if you attempt to offend me only with mere verses, you got a lot to learn (even in your own 'holy' motherfucker religion).

 

[AspiringSoul]

@Claire Rousseau
if one rejects Jesus and asserts that they follow the old testament, that they 'believe in it' do they really? i am sure God will reject them because the OT is right there, in their face..and yet they reject none other than Jesus himself.


see...im more open minded and know people have their own interpretations, and i can make room for that because we're all influenced by ego to some degree, we all have a chattering monkey mind.
butJesus was way too hard, he was like
'nope you burn if you do it wrong'
gnashing of teeth n wot not.

saving everyone
'jesus didnt we call you lord?'
Jesus: i didnt know you, go to hell.


im certain if this was islam you would mock it, im not mocking im projecting christian tactics onto their own religion..


Remember the story of the man in hades? yet today im telling you all the evidence for islam is already therein your book and you're rejecting it.
God's promise to Hagar for ismael
Isaiah 42, the new song prophecy
John 16 the spirit of truth
The parable of tenants
Even Revelation 11 says
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months
and this is literally true for islam

in the bible story, when Hagar was in distress, God produced a well..
no big deal to you...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+21:8-21&version=NIV
7 God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. 18 Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”

19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.

20 God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. 21 While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt.

and the christians just be like
'he was a wild ass of a man'
(no class whatsoever)

but this water, it lives on

what a frigging religion...def must be from satan.
5000+ yr old story of a well and here are muslims in the millions and millions drinking from this well.
i suppose it is not that well? but idk, there's too much happening all at once


it doesnt end there btw.
Here is a story in Psalm 84
this particular story actually was meant to mimic the story of the wandering 'lost' israelites, awaiting the promised land.

How lovely is your dwelling place,
Lord Almighty!
2 My soul yearns, even faints,
for the courts of the Lord;
my heart and my flesh cry out
for the living God.
3 Even the sparrow has found a home,
and the swallow a nest for herself,
where she may have her young—
a place near your altar,
Lord Almighty, my King and my God.
4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house;
they are ever praising you.[c]


In the context as i said, this is presenting the story of Israelites before they built the temple...when they were still, 'wandering'


5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you,
whose hearts are set on pilgrimage.
6 As they pass through the Valley of Baka,
they make it a place of springs;
the autumn rains also cover it with pools.[d]
7 They go from strength to strength,
till each appears before God in Zion.

the valley of baka, Baka is another name for Mekka..
It is the place of pilgrimage, of the kaba...of the zamzam water and so forth, where Ismael grew up.

The problem is there have been jewish historians who've claimed that the Kadesh mentioned in Numbers 13
Numbers 13:26
[ Report on the Exploration ] They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land.

is the place where the israelites lived for 38 YEARS!!!
and the idea being that they eventually developed here and went to Jerusalem.
remarkable story...sheds a lot of light on the psalm i quoted...and it stands to reason Mecca is the place of pilgrimage too.

I'm not sharing this to confuse you, but to show you the clear link between the israelites and what is the home of islam.

but its the devil innit.



Now despite the whole 'angel' fiasco

He is the ONLY ONE Who walked this earth & lived His life without committing sin...(further proves His deity, as only God cannot sin)

and children and those who have certain mental incapacity are not accountable for sin, doesn't make any of them deity.
is it, actually possible for a person to go without sinning? it is isn't it? i mean most of us don't but it is still possible.
law of probability, billions of people, im certain there are a few who are utterly sinless who've lived in this world.

what sin did Mary commit?
What about, Melkezidek? probably a sinless one.
the arch angels, like Gabriel sinless..


So when people buy into the lies of satan, thinking they can earn their way to Heaven on their own merit, they are falling for his oldest trick in the book: “Ye shall be as gods”.
nice
of course Jesus quoting the psalm where it say 'ye are gods'
i could not make this up
Jesus himself affirmed this idea, BUT i say in the true context it extends to God's Immanence in man, since the 'God-centre' within us is the holy spirit....and hence in a sense God is in us and thus 'ye are gods' but it isnt literal but mystical yadda yadda..


Unless our life on earth is sinless, and we can say we are as good as Jesus, we fall short of God’s standards & are sinners in need of a Saviour.

I don’t know about you, but I cannot claim to even come close to the level of Jesus. I wouldn’t even dare to try to claim such an untruth, lest God strike me dead for lying .

don't tempt fate.....


So once you realize the serious truth of the matter, and how any chance you had at earning salvation has been shot to Hell since you’ve already committed sin, you then must destroy your pride so you can realize how unworthy you are God’s Kingdom
That is crucial. Unless you give up all hope of being found worthy of God’s majestic Heaven by your own merit, you will never look to the Saviour for salvation, and will waste your life chasing a pipe dream, in a vicious cycle of sin, followed by guilt, vain good deeds, & emptiness....over & over again but never experiencing the pure joy, fulfilling peace & utter relief that shines through you like the brightest light—-shattering all your deepest fears and the blackest darkness that occurs the very moment you get saved.

God already knows we are unworthy to go to Heaven without His help. To admit it to Him, and to yourself......that is the ultimate act of submission—the complete surrender to His Will.


and Jesus said
the kingdom of God is within you

 

[AspiringSoul]

Y'all are too devoted to a single flawed (so-called) religion. As for me, I believe that a lot of those 'holy' books you hold right now are pretty much corrupted. But indeed I found useful information right there (in all of them combined). If you're too close-minded to realize those books are just a human-written letters which most likely to be turned out wrong and not the perfect source of truth, then please go fuck yourself with your own thoughts and don't ever convince people to convert (or join) to your fucked religion. But if you insist, please prove it. Prove that your 'holy' book is perfect, have no flaw or contradiction.

Ok, this is what I found out about Abrahamic religions so far. The true Judaism were found thousand years ago, when the prophetic events between Abraham and Moses happened. Its Torah is so interesting for me to learn. Another books followed, to form what called Tanakh. Christianity called Tanakh as Old Testament, modified the order, added some more chapters, and create a section that's fully 'influenced' by Greek language: the New Testament (it's where the contradiction began, between the Old and the New). Then Islam, the most recent and flawed religion of them all (because it has the most modified book, Quran). Quran was made by the man who was demon possessed (Learn more about the satanic verses if you don't know about it). Many of the verses contradicted each other, and not stable, made for just a justification of Mohammed's sins. Indeed, some of the verses obtained (and still, modified) from other Abrahamic religions books, but the stability of Quran was too low to be called 'holy' book. Moslems even forced to have a prayer, pointed to a black box. Other Abrahamic religions knew very well that it's a sort form of idolatry. Please do your own research with mind opened, because if you attempt to offend me only with mere verses, you got a lot to learn (even in your own 'holy' motherfucker religion).

when your wifi runs out you could always r*pe another village girl.
jai hind.

 

[vedasconservative]

when your wifi runs out you could always r*pe another village girl.
jai hind.

Yikes. Ignorant ass is coming

 

[Etagloc]

Y'all are too devoted to a single flawed (so-called) religion. As for me, I believe that a lot of those 'holy' books you hold right now are pretty much corrupted. But indeed I found useful information right there (in all of them combined). If you're too close-minded to realize those books are just a human-written letters which most likely to be turned out wrong and not the perfect source of truth, then please go fuck yourself with your own thoughts and don't ever convince people to convert (or join) to your fucked religion. But if you insist, please prove it. Prove that your 'holy' book is perfect, have no flaw or contradiction.

Ok, this is what I found out about Abrahamic religions so far. The true Judaism were found thousand years ago, when the prophetic events between Abraham and Moses happened. Its Torah is so interesting for me to learn. Another books followed, to form what called Tanakh. Christianity called Tanakh as Old Testament, modified the order, added some more chapters, and create a section that's fully 'influenced' by Greek language: the New Testament (it's where the contradiction began, between the Old and the New). Then Islam, the most recent and flawed religion of them all (because it has the most modified book, Quran). Quran was made by the man who was demon possessed (Learn more about the satanic verses if you don't know about it). Many of the verses contradicted each other, and not stable, made for just a justification of Mohammed's sins. Indeed, some of the verses obtained (and still, modified) from other Abrahamic religions books, but the stability of Quran was too low to be called 'holy' book. Moslems even forced to have a prayer, pointed to a black box. Other Abrahamic religions knew very well that it's a sort form of idolatry. Please do your own research with mind opened, because if you attempt to offend me only with mere verses, you got a lot to learn (even in your own 'holy' motherfucker religion).

Welcome, friend! : )

I am excited that you have come to this thread : )

Greetings!

I have never talked to a Hindu about Hinduism in real life and I know almost nothing about Hinduism....

you are Hindu, yes?

I know so little about Hinduism : (

What do Hindus believe?
And what do you believe?

Please teach me, I have only met very few Hindus before and I've never talked to a Hindu person about Hinduism in real life

 

[Etagloc]

when your wifi runs out you could always r*pe another village girl.
jai hind.

no need to be rude
and that is a tasteless thing to say

 

[AspiringSoul]

no need to be rude
and that is a tasteless thing to say

have known hindus online, for maaaaany yrs
there is no one worse.
obsessed with islam and pakistan is an understatement BUT he may not even be hindu given the xtians have form for fake sock accounts on here anyway
read his/her post again and it begins as a 3 is 1 post but just digs into islam.

no need to kiss ppls ass to be polite when they are ignorant.
it wont convince ppl to somehow accept you.
if it does they are low intellect idiots who dont deserve my respect anyway.

fact that he thinks the quran is the most corrupt of the 3 books is a bloody laugh.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

no need to be rude
and that is a tasteless thing to say

In my experience people make things personal (as hominem/straw man etc) when their case is weak. Rudeness in communication is like a cornered dog snarling at you, however if I had never been that way towards others I could sit in judgement of it more easily.

Best just to walk away sometimes.