Sundering the Union + Constitution in "Crisis" + Convention of States(Article V)

Karlysymon

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I chuckled when i saw the title of, now-ex director of the CFR, Richard N Haas' book (Bill of obligations) as the first thing that came to mind was a social credit system. But on a more serious note, what is a world government constitution going to look more so in the context of the Fourth Industrial Revolution where we are genetically transformed? Do cyborgs retain rights or do those old rights become obligations?]

At 5:27min mark , Richard Haas says:
"American democracy could degrade and has degraded so that we could have decentralized, politically inspired violence that shaped Northern Ireland for 3 decades during the Troubles and i spent years there as the US envoy...i no longer find that far-fetched"

[QN: Where are you on the scale of concern? 1-10?"]

"Oh, iam in the 8-9 range"


Sometimes a movie comes along that’s a controversy before anyone has even seen it. That appears to be the destiny of Alex Garland’s Civil War, a movie about a second civil war in America. Civil War is coming out on April 26, 2024, but the usual crop of right-wing grifters have already decided that the film’s release is some kind of ominous signaling from the woke deep state, foreshadowing events to come.

As with any dystopian media that eerily reflects our current late capitalist reality, online commentators are debating the believability of the film’s premise. In the film’s trailer, a three term president—played by Nick Offerman—goes to war with seceded states, including a Western Alliance of Texas and California. Many did not find this credible.


 

Karlysymon

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A constitutional crisis, properly understood as a turning point that might lead to collapse or transformation of the system, has not occurred. But such a crisis does now appear increasingly likely. I am not talking about the election (though that could produce a constitutional crisis if the outcome is close, or in the unlikely event that Trump somehow refuses to leave office). Rather, I am referring to a crisis that could occur even if Trump loses. This crisis would arise from a tension that has existed throughout American history: namely, between the courts and a system of democracy that gives ultimate power to the people.
 

TempestOfTempo

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A constitutional crisis, properly understood as a turning point that might lead to collapse or transformation of the system, has not occurred. But such a crisis does now appear increasingly likely. I am not talking about the election (though that could produce a constitutional crisis if the outcome is close, or in the unlikely event that Trump somehow refuses to leave office). Rather, I am referring to a crisis that could occur even if Trump loses. This crisis would arise from a tension that has existed throughout American history: namely, between the courts and a system of democracy that gives ultimate power to the people.
This, and the Constitutional Convention have been looming for quite a while... I say either get it on... or get out of the way.
 

Karlysymon

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Texas Nationalist Movement wants secession vote during 2024 state Republican primary

Populous states such as California, New York and others currently are denied full representation in the election of our president by the machinations of the electoral college system. As has been well documented, the selection of the president is decided by a slim minority of a few tens of thousands of voters in five less densely populated states. Under this system, every vote cast in the U.S. does not count equally.

As we confront the looming, very possible, election of former President Donald Trump with his extremist rhetoric and taunts of dictatorship, here is the question that comes to mind that deserves serious consideration: If Trump is elected under these circumstances, is it time to consider the possibility of secession from the union by these underrepresented states?


Interestingly enough, ^^this outcome was war-gamed back in 2020.
 
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Karlysymon

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The big and fascinating question remains; what event or confluence of events is going to be used to induce a constitutional crisis then Convention and the eventual breakup of the country? And if Trump is the appropriate vehicle for TPTB to set all this in motion then i guess it harks back to Jacques Attalli comments that he (Trump) was a political Bernie Madoff.

Maine's top election official removes Trump from 2024 primary ballot


The majority of Americans oppose the decisions in Colorado and Maine to disqualify former President Donald Trump from the 2024 ballot. Other polls put the balance slightly in favor, but all polls show a deeply divided country on this effort. The Maine decision will now be reviewed by the Maine state courts, but the Colorado decision is scheduled for oral argument in a matter of weeks. A reversal of the Colorado decision is now supported by 27 states, which filed with the Supreme Court to oppose the underlying theory under the Fourteenth Amendment. It is relatively rare to see states opposing the expansion of their own authority vis-a-vis Congress. The brief reinforces the view of states like Colorado as outliers in the country in embracing this anti-democratic theory.

The attorneys general of Indiana, West Virginia and 25 other states, warn the court that this novel theory will produce “chaos” in the country.
“The Colorado Supreme Court has cast itself into a ‘political thicket,’ Evenwel v. Abbott, 578 U.S. 54, 58, (2016), and it is now up to this Court to pull it out. ‘Confidence in the integrity of our electoral processes is essential to the functioning of our participatory democracy.’ Purcell v. Gonzalez, 549 U.S. 1, 4 (2006) (per curiam). If the Colorado decision stands, that critical confidence will be harmed. Many Americans will become convinced that a few partisan actors have contrived to take a political decision out of ordinary voters’ hands.”
Advocates are pushing this dangerous theory at a time of deepening divisions in our country. As I have previously said, the four Colorado justices are recklessly throwing matches at a powder keg. That is why I am hopeful that at least one of the liberal justices will follow the lead of the three democratically appointed Colorado justices, who dissent from this anti-democratic decision.
Here is the filing: Trump Ballot Amicus
 

Karlysymon

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Want an Article 5 Convention to change the Constitution? Here come the clowns | Anderson

Two conservative Kansas lawmakers sue Republican leadership over convention of the states

Amending the Constitution Is Impossible Until Suddenly It's Not

.....But the problem is not merely Trump. The U.S. Constitution itself contributes to the country’s crisis. As David Frum observed in a recent issue of The Atlantic, “If Trump is elected, it very likely won’t be with a majority of the popular vote” but rather because our system for selecting the president “has privileged a strategically located minority, led by a lawbreaking president, over the democratic majority.” America must fight the immediate threat, but it must also go beyond that and stop this problem at its core: addressing once and for all the aspects of the Constitution that enable an authoritarian leader to remain within striking distance of the presidency.
 

Karlysymon

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.......You can see where this is headed folks. “Biden” is giving Texas an ultimatum to comply. The Democrats are demanding Biden call up the Texas National Guard. The entire thing has a wholly manufactured feel to it, but it is also something that had to happen. The States had to stand up to this.

And as I’ve talked about at length, the goal here is splitting the US up because a divided US, falling apart politically at this point in history, is exactly what our enemies want. The eventual goal is undermining the validity of the US debt markets and Washington D.C.’s ability to pay its bills.

There is no Great Reset with a fully functional United States.

This is why Abbot’s move is so very important. It’s not about the pols in D.C., it’s about awakening the proles across the country. The people now have to decide what country they want to live in going forward. One where the power of the gun rules or one where laws rule?

This is the type of moment which clarifies and sharpens the focus of those who have, to this point, been ‘comfortable’ enough not to see the threats for what they are. A little ‘secession’ or, in this case, a little ‘federalism’ is a good thing.

Because despite the smooth-brained arguments of the soft-headed midwits, we do not live in a democracy. The question I have now is what’s the over/under on “Biden” declaring Texas in a state of insurrection against the Union in order to deny it, as a State, its vote this fall?
 

Karlysymon

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The official House schedule calls for floor debate on two bills urging Congress to convene a constitutional convention to require a balanced federal budget and impose term limits on members of Congress. In a place where 90-plus percent of members hold safe and often gerrymandered seats, where 90-year-old Sen. Charles Grassley is in his eighth term, something tells us that’s just not happening.

But a balanced federal budget and term limits for career politicians — who could oppose that?

These two feel-good ideas are camouflage for something much more radical and sinister: a no-rules rewrite of the U.S. Constitution.



At a podium with a “Hold Washington Accountable” affixed to the front, DeSantis said it’s time to restrict Washington’s worst excesses. “Let’s stop complaining about Washington and do something to restrain Washington for a change,” he said.

With House Speaker Paul Renner at his side, DeSantis called for four separate amendments to the U.S. Constitution, which would:

— Impose term limits on members of Congress.
— Require Congress to pass a balanced budget each year.
— Provide the President with line-item veto power.
— Prohibit imposing any law on citizens that doesn’t apply to members of Congress.

DeSantis, a former member of Congress, also said federal lawmakers feel too inclined to evade mandates imposed on other citizens and federal employees.
“Remember when they did it on Obamacare?” DeSantis said. “And even when Biden did the executive order on the COVID vax mandate, they exempted Congress from that.”

In both his press conference and a video message released afterward on social media, he noted Article V in the Constitution provides ways to amend the document, and said it’s time to use them.

“Washington’s never going to reform itself. It’s going to require us working in our individual states using the tools that the founding fathers gave us to be able to take power away from D.C. and return it back to the American people to make sure that the incentives are to produce good government rather than self-serving government,” DeSantis said.

Still, the issue drew opposition from many House Democrats, many of whom say they support those policies but fear a runaway constitutional convention. The U.S. Constitution was born from the first Constitutional Convention, held to create a replacement for the Articles of Confederation.

“What are the guardrails? And what are some of the things that we could do if there is a problem?” House Democratic Leader Fentrice Driskell asked on the House floor earlier this month.
 

Karlysymon

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This was an interesting read only because it seems that TPTB, through their front groups, are really desperate for a Constitutional Convention. Interesting times....


"ALEC used this most recent policy summit to double down on a strategy first presented in 2020 claiming that unrelated and outdated state resolutions should be counted to meet the threshold of the 34 state calls needed to hold a constitutional convention. Using this rationale, the threshold was reached in 1979, making Congress legally required to convene a constitutional convention immediately.

U.S. Rep. Jodey Arrington (R-TX) presented the bill he has introduced (HCR 24) to do just that, claiming Congress has “failed in its constitutional duty to count applications and call a ‘Convention for proposing Amendments.’”

“Working with my friend and our fearless leader in the House, Speaker Mike Johnson, I’m going to continue to push to pass this important legislation to stave off a sovereign debt crisis, to rein in the reckless and wasteful spending in Washington, and to return power back to the sovereign states,” Arrington said.

David Walker, former comptroller general of the U.S., discussed steps being taken to force the issue in the courts. “The Federal Fiscal Sustainability Foundation (of which I’m a board member) has financed the drafting of a declaratory judgment filing by a prominent D.C. firm with significant Supreme Court experience,” Walker explained. He noted that several states are considering whether to file a case against Congress with the goal being “to get a case before the Supreme Court to force the Congress to discharge its constitutional responsibilities. We need more states to join this effort.”

Utah State Rep. Ken Ivory (R) also called on ALEC lawmakers to urge the Supreme Court to act. “Please join us in the state of Utah as we look into the legal mechanisms that we have under the Constitution… to declare that Congress must count the applications,” Ivory implored. “And if, as we believe, we’ve already achieved 34 applications to Congress for a fiscal responsibility convention, call [it]… and hold a Convention of States.”

In a workshop titled “Article V: The People’s Voice and State’s Empowerment Tool,” ALEC lawmakers heard from “legal experts” who delved “into the merits of a Declaratory Judgment suit against Congress, specifically addressing its negligence since 1979 in calling a Convention for an inflation-fighting Fiscal Responsibility Amendment.”


Members of ALEC’s Federalism and International Relations Task Force heard a similar presentation called “Article V — Next Steps If the 34-State Threshold Was Met in 1979.”
Task force members then took a secret vote on a Resolution Demanding Congress Call the Fiscally Responsible Amendment Convention as Article V Mandated in 1979 Stipulating Ratification by State Convention, where “We the People Rule.”
This resolution not only calls on Congress to hold a constitutional convention, it requires the states’ governors, attorneys general, and legislative councils “to seek judicial enforcement” if they fail to do so.
 

Karlysymon

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On Saturday, Mironov, the leader of faction A Just Russia—For Truth in the Russian legislature, wrote on X, formerly Twitter, "In the conflict between Texas and the United States, I am on the side of the state. At least Texas does not interfere in the affairs of other countries. If necessary, we are ready to help with the independence referendum. And of course, we will recognize the People's Republic of Texas if there is one. Good luck! We're with you!"

A U.S. Department of State spokesperson told Newsweek via email on Sunday, "The Kremlin is trying in the most obvious way to concoct a false narrative that will sow division in our country. We hope people see this narrative for what it is—standard Kremlin nonsense."

Late last month, Julia Davis, founder of the Russian Media Monitor watchdog group, shared a clip on X of Sergei Markov, a notably pro-Putin political scientist and former adviser to the Russian leader, suggesting on a Russian state-run media broadcast that a civil war in the U.S. would not only be good for Russia in its war with Ukraine,
but "good for the world."
 

Karlysymon

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Neocons hung up on transforming America. Both Max Boot and David Frum were in attendance at the 2020 election war-gaming. Frum wrote a pretty dark piece in The Atlantic

....By Election Day 2024, Donald Trump will be in the thick of multiple criminal trials. It’s not impossible that he may already have been convicted in at least one of them. If he wins the election, Trump will commit the first crime of his second term at noon on Inauguration Day: His oath to defend the Constitution of the United States will be a perjury.

A second Trump term would instantly plunge the country into a constitutional crisis more terrible than anything seen since the Civil War. Even in the turmoil of the 1960s, even during the Great Depression, the country had a functional government with the president as its head. But the government cannot function with an indicted or convicted criminal as its head. The president would be an outlaw, or on his way to becoming an outlaw. For his own survival, he would have to destroy the rule of law.

Anyway, the United States would be too paralyzed by troubles at home to help friends abroad.

If Trump is elected, it very likely won’t be with a majority of the popular vote. Imagine the scenario: Trump has won the Electoral College with 46 percent of the vote because third-party candidates funded by Republican donors successfully splintered the anti-Trump coalition. Having failed to win the popular vote in each of the past three elections, Trump has become president for the second time. On that thin basis, his supporters would try to execute his schemes of personal impunity and political vengeance.

In this scenario, Trump opponents would have to face a harsh reality: The U.S. electoral system has privileged a strategically located minority, led by a lawbreaking president, over the democratic majority. One side outvoted the other. The outvoted nonetheless won the power to govern.

The outvoted would happily justify the twist of events in their favor. “We are a republic, not a democracy,” many said in 2016. Since that time, the outvoted have become more outspoken against democracy. As Senator Mike Lee tweeted a month before the 2020 election: “Democracy isn’t the objective.”

So long as minority rule seems an occasional or accidental result, the majority might go along. But once aware that the minority intends to engineer its power to last forever—and to use it to subvert the larger legal and constitutional system—the majority may cease to be so accepting. One outcome of a second Trump term may be an American version of the massive demonstrations that filled Tel Aviv streets in 2023, when Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu tried to remake Israel’s court system.

And what might follow that? In 2020, Trump’s advisers speculated about the possibility of using the Army to crush protests against Trump’s plans to overturn that year’s election. Now those in Trump’s circle are apparently thinking further ahead. Some reportedly want to prepare in advance to use the Insurrection Act to convert the military into a tool of Trump’s authoritarian project. It’s an astonishing possibility. But Trump is thinking about it, so everybody else must—including the senior command of the U.S. military.


If a president can summon an investigation of his opponents, or summon the military to put down protests, then suddenly our society would no longer be free. There would be no more law, only legalized persecution of political opponents. It has always been Trump’s supreme political wish to wield both the law and institutional violence as personal weapons of power—a wish that many in his party now seem determined to help him achieve.

That grim negative ideal is the core ballot question in 2024. If Trump is defeated, the United States can proceed in its familiar imperfect way to deal with the many big problems of our time: the wars in the Middle East and Ukraine, climate change, educational standards and equal opportunity, economic growth and individual living standards, and so on. Stopping Trump would not represent progress on any of those agenda items. But stopping Trump would preserve the possibility of progress, by keeping alive the constitutional-democratic structure of the United States.

A second Trump presidency, however, is the kind of shock that would overwhelm all other issues. It would mark the turn onto a dark path, one of these rips between “before” and “after” that a society can never reverse. Even if the harm is contained, it can never be fully undone, as the harm of January 6, 2021, can never be undone. The long tradition of peaceful transitions of power was broken that day, and even though the attempt to stop the transition by violence was defeated, the violence itself was not expunged. The schemes and plots of a second Trump term may be defeated too. Yet every future would-be dictator will know: A president can attempt a coup and, if stopped, still return to office to try again.


As we now understand from memoirs and on-the-record comments, many of Trump’s own Cabinet appointees and senior staff were horrified by the president they served. The leaders of his own party in Congress feared and hated him. The GOP’s deepest-pocketed donors have worked for three years to nominate somebody, anybody, else. Yet even so, Trump’s co-partisans are converging upon him. They are convincing themselves that something can justify forgiving Trump’s first attempted coup and enabling a second: taxes, border control, stupid comments by “woke” college students.

For democracy to continue, however, the democratic system itself must be the supreme commitment of all major participants. Rules must matter more than outcomes. If not, the system careens toward breakdown—as it is careening now.

When Benjamin Franklin famously said of the then-new Constitution, “A republic, if you can keep it,” he was not suggesting that the republic might be misplaced absentmindedly. He foresaw that ambitious, ruthless characters would arise to try to break the republic, and that weak, venal characters might assist them. Americans have faced Franklin’s challenge since 2016, in a story that has so far had some villains, many heroes—and just enough good luck to tip the balance. It would be dangerous to continue to count on luck to do the job.


Boot linked to his Sunday column in which he argued for the Electoral College to be abolished and for senators to be elected proportional to their population, despite the House of Representatives already being a chamber of Congress that is elected proportional to the population.

"We should abolish the Electoral College and make the election of senators proportional to population. Let the will of the people prevail. We should – but we won’t. Small states will block any constitutional amendment that would strip them of their outsize power," he wrote.

Boot, who identified as a conservative prior to the election of former President Trump, joined the growing chorus of progressives calling to remove the Electoral College. While some progressives have also called for the Senate to be abolished, Boot doesn't go that far and instead claims it's unfair smaller states have the same number of senators as larger states.

Actor Adam Baldwin asked Boot a simple question.

"’Abolish the Electoral College’ by what constitutional process, Max?," Baldwin tweeted.
 

Karlysymon

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The U.S. Constitution is in serious danger. Expect a bill soon that could rewrite it | Opinion

Notably, the push for a constitutional convention is not local. The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) holds itself out as a membership organization for state legislators, but it principally lobbies for corporate America. ALEC has drafted and pushed laws that oppose climate change initiatives, limit voting rights, and promote pro-business, anti-consumer programs. ALEC drafted the constitutional convention bill that Idaho legislators will likely take up in the coming weeks. ALEC’s bill calls for a convention to “impose fiscal restraints on the federal government, limit the power and jurisdiction of the federal government, and limit the terms of office for its officials and for members of Congress.”
 

Karlysymon

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"You could give concurrent jurisdiction to the states to enforce the borders and immigration law. We have 19 states that have waited on this resolution, if 15 states join us we could literally be in Convention in 30 days. We could pass an amendment that says the states have this concurrent jurisdiction and Texas could lock their borders down."----Mark Meckler

Iowa Delivers Preliminary Victory, FOUR States Hold Public Hearings | COS NOW 2024 (5mins)
 

Tyln93

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America is under control of Masons!!!
They are cause of Civil Disorder!!!
America = Country of Lies and Murderers!!!
America has a terrorist government that invades other countries but plays hero deepthroating propaganda into their citizens!!!

61YZFn3KZJL._SL1350___62300.jpg
 

Karlysymon

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The world situation today is held together only by the strength of the dollar, which is itself legitimised by the economic, military and political power of the United States, which remains the world’s leading refuge for capital. However, they are now threatened by a very serious budgetary, financial, climatic and political crisis:
In addition, there is a revolutionary climate, where no one can rule out a constitutional crisis, which could even lead, according to some, to the secession of certain states.
Source
America's friends and "enemies" predicting the same fate: something triggers a constitutional crisis that cascades into national ruin. ^^^Last April, Macron advisor---Jacques Attali. Now, the ex-Russian president


Among the uncertain elections, the 3 most important will be the presidential elections in the USA and Taiwan, as well as the European elections to renew the European Parliament. In the United States, whoever wins, the result will usher in a period of great chaos: lasting chaos, if Donald Trump is elected and implements his insane program, which aims to install a veritable dictatorship; temporary chaos if, after his defeat, his supporters unleash a civil war better prepared than in 2020. In any case, in 2024, the United States will be more inward-looking than ever, at a time when Europe in particular needs its support.

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Karlysymon

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Stop me if you’ve heard this one before — a red-state governor, in the midst of a nationwide immigration crisis, defies the president and shuts down the state’s borders to prevent more immigrants from coming in. This leads other states suffering from the effects of mass illegal immigration to rally around the state defying the president, and they all send troops to the state’s borders. Incredibly, this is the plot of “The Second Civil War,” a made-for-HBO movie in 1997. The film languishes in obscurity despite its notable prescience. Which is a shame, because it’s also a surprisingly incisive, entertaining, and well-made film.

As for the plot, obviously things are more complicated and less bang-on accurate to the current Texas standoff than the very brief summary up top might indicate — but that doesn’t make things any less trenchant. (There are some mild spoilers ahead.)


The state is Idaho, not Texas, but the way the immigration crisis is illustrated is something. For instance, Chinese immigrants have completely taken over Rhode Island and now dominate the state’s politics, but an all-new wave of immigrants now threatens the Chinese character of the state such that they are riding to support Idaho, now populated largely by white militia types, in its standoff with the Feds. The mayor of Los Angeles holds a press conference all in Spanish where he denounces Anglo control of California before the presser is interrupted by a hail of bullets from black gangs upset with Hispanic control of the city. Sikhs now dominate Alabama and speak with hick accents. There’s a Nation of Islam caucus in Congress, and one of these congressmen confronts James Earl Jones’ character over the fact that he’s a black man married to a Jew. It’s implied that Jones’ character met his wife in the “back of a bus” when they were both Freedom Riders fighting for civil rights, which is just a damning and ballsy confrontation of black racism.

In fact, mass immigration has so thoroughly corrupted America’s politics that there’s a running joke throughout the film about the White House trying to cobble together enough electoral votes by appealing to various balkanized regional ethnic factions. It’s remarkable to see all this acknowledged frankly, let alone played for laughs. If you suggest today that mass illegal immigration is being tolerated because there’s the expectation these millions of people will become voters someday, dilute the voting power of existing citizens, and be exploited for the benefit of the guy in the White House… well, we’re told over and over this is the “great replacement theory” and anyone who suggests this is a possibility is a racist nutcase enabling mass shooters.

And yet 25 years ago, earnest liberals saw this as a logical outcome of what’s happening.
Source
 

Karlysymon

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Utah taxpayers could pay as much as $50,000 a year to an organization — led by state Rep. Ken Ivory — aimed at creating the framework for a constitutional convention to debate new amendments to the U.S. Constitution.

On Monday evening, Rep. Kay Christofferson, R-Lehi, made the pitch to legislative leaders for the funding to support the Phoenix Correspondence Commission, a loose network of lawmakers interested in building momentum for states to call a national convention of the states to debate and propose constitutional amendments.

This type of convention of the states — known in the Constitution as an Article V convention — has never been done before.

The Phoenix Correspondence Commission (PCC) first met in Arizona in 2017 to hold a simulated convention with delegates from 19 states. Ivory, R-West Jordan, and Christofferson both attended from Utah, as did Senate President Stuart Adams, R-Layton. The delegates voiced support for a balanced budget amendment and proposed a set of potential rules for an Article V convention — if one becomes a reality.
 
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