Do you believe in the Pretrib Rapture? If yes, what convinced you?

[Floridafoot]

So this is one concept that, despite some decent arguments, I still have not been convinced. The number one go to is:
1 Thessalonians 4:17
"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

I watched an in depth analysis by Chuck Missler (I know, I know he's a Zionist but he knows his Bible) which was fairly compelling. He basically postulates that the way the 7 letters to the 7 Churches are structured indicates a pretrib rapture. Here is his analysis of the Pretrib Rapture ideology. It's in two parts:
PART 1:

PART 2:

He also goes into more detail about the Rapture in his analysis of the book of Revelation and the seven letters to the seven churches. It's several parts long so instead of posting them all maybe just search for them on your own. You can find all of his videos easily on YouTube and the like. I do not agree with everything Mr. Missler espouses. However, in my opinion he makes the most convincing argument for the pretrib rapture. Having said that... I'm still not really convinced. The whole idea has my discernment red flags flying. I am curious what the other members of the forum believe and why. Thoughts?

 

[Floridafoot]

There are people like this YouTuber:

See, this fella here is 100 percent sold. I watch his videos because he does a good job keeping up with world events and how they might relate to the Scriptures. Yes he is all in supporting Israel, that is not what this thread is about. I do not have to agree with everything someone else believes. I can hear what they have to say and sort the gold from the dross.
Anyhow, he is like "eyes on the skies" "any minute now." I appreciate his enthusiasm and yes, we should be looking up for Jesus to return, our lamps filled with oil to spare. But again I come back to is this really biblical?

 

[Seekeroftruth55]

I have to be honest, and say I don't really believe in the rapture all that much, and I'm not convinced, either.
I find it the rapture was a thing, so many Christians would of been taken up to heaven by now. We are definitely going through a crazy time in the world right now, it looks like we could even be within the seven years tribulation at this point, and if the rapture was a thing, isn't it said that many Christians would already be raptured at this point? That's what makes me skeptical.
Thanks for this thread and hope my point wasn't too pushy or anything so I apologize for that if it is.

 

[Floridafoot]

I have to be honest, and say I don't really believe in the rapture all that much, and I'm not convinced, either.
I find it the rapture was a thing, so many Christians would of been taken up to heaven by now. We are definitely going through a crazy time in the world right now, it looks like we could even be within the seven years tribulation at this point, and if the rapture was a thing, isn't it said that many Christians would already be raptured at this point? That's what makes me skeptical.
Thanks for this thread and hope my point wasn't too pushy or anything so I apologize for that if it is.

Ah. Thank you. You don't have to apologize for expressing your thoughts.

 

[Seekeroftruth55]

Ah. Thank you. You don't have to apologize for expressing your thoughts.

You're very welcome, and thank you for that, unfortunately some don't understand that, sadly, so I'm glad this worked out.
What's sad is that sure, a rapture would be nice to avoid a lot of the horrible stuff that's happening, but looks like we have to toughen it out..

 

[phipps]

Biblically there is no rapture and its not written of in it. Jesus will come the second time once. There are not going be two separate events.

Jesus will descend on a cloud, raise the righteous dead and those that are alive will meet the Lord in the air along with the just risen righteous dead.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, "But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

According to end time prophecy and the signs given to us in the Bible, Jesus is coming back soon for us! He wants us to be prepared for His coming and to have every possible opportunity to make an informed decision about the allegiance of our hearts. But when Jesus returns in a glorious, worldwide event and takes the righteous with Him to heaven, everyone on earth will be settled in their decisions (Revelation 22:11).

God doesn’t want us to be afraid or caught off guard by that event. That’s why He invites us today to faithfully follow Him, trusting that He will strengthen us and care for us.

 

[Floridafoot]

Biblically there is no rapture and its not written of in it. Jesus will come the second time once. There are not going be two separate events.

Jesus will descend on a cloud, raise the righteous dead those that are alive will be meet the Lord in the air a long with the just risen righteous dead.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, "But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

According to end time prophecy and the signs given to us in the Bible, Jesus is coming back soon for us! He wants us to be prepared for His coming and to have every possible opportunity to make an informed decision about the allegiance of our hearts. But when Jesus returns in a glorious, worldwide event and takes the righteous with Him to heaven, everyone on earth will be settled in their decisions (Revelation 22:11).

God doesn’t want us to be afraid or caught off guard by that event. That’s why He invites us today to faithfully follow Him, trusting that He will strengthen us and care for us.

Right. This is why I don't like when folks cherry pick the scriptures. When it is read in its full context it is more specific.

 

[Floridafoot]

This is a video from Hugotalks.com arguing against the pretrib rapture. I like Hugo's healthy skepticism.

https://hugotalks.com/2023/07/16/rapture-ready-part-ii-pre-tribulation-be-not-deceived-hugo-talks/

 

[phipps]

This is one of the most commonly used verses that those who support the secret rapture use:

Matthew 24:40-44, "Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

Dispensationalists take these verses to mean that Jesus will rapture His followers from the earth while everyone else won’t even know what happened until it’s too late. That’s how they see the fate of the workers left behind in the field or at the mill.

The term “thief” is also used in parts of the Bible about the end times (2 Peter 3:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:2). They all refer to how the timing of Jesus’ arrival at the Second Coming will be a surprise.

This harmonises with the Bible telling us we do not know when Jesus is returning the second time. No one ever knows when a thief is coming to their house.

But none of these verses indicate that Jesus’ arrival, or the rapture of believers, will go unnoticed. In fact, 2 Peter 3:10 states that His appearing will be such a powerful event that the sky will burn.

If we read Matthew 24:39-41 it says, "and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left."

All these verses are saying is that if you look at two random people out living life, they might appear similar, just going about their routines but one was prepared for what was happening while the other one was caught by surprise.

But there isn’t any mention of life on earth continuing on after one person is taken and the other left. This whole section of Matthew 24 is talking about the “day of the Lord,” or the Second Coming. So both the taking and the leaving are happening at the time of Jesus’ return.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

My thoughts on the pre tribulation rapture:
(I haven't had a chance to watch the videos yet, apologies if anything i say as been mentioned)

- it is not a salvation issue! I've seen youtube pastor videos where they claim if someone doesn't believe in it that person must not be a Christian. So wrong. Believing in a pre trib rapture is most definitely not part of the gospel (im not saying its not true, nor that it is, just that it is not part of the gospel or a pre requisite for salvation)

- i haven't accepted a pre tribulation rapture. In my view the Bible is describing a pre wrath rapture, which i guess some refer to as a mid-tribulation rapture? I don't see it as "mid" because i think it happens long after the middle, if the middle is when the antichrist betrays Israel and declares himself God.

Basically, i believe Christians will be around for the first 3.5 years when there is increased persecution from other people/the govt (which are under satan's influence), and then the antichrist will declare himself God and the persecution will pick up, then God will rain down His wrath. This persecution is not the "wrath of God" - the 7 bowls of wrath. I think the rapture will happen right before the bowls of wrath.

The Bible says He has not appointed us to wrath.
1 Thessalonians 5
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ


- so, i believe Christians will be present during the majority of the tribulation. BUT, i read an interesting teaching a few months ago that said that even though we will be present, God will still look out for us.

There are different "types" in the Bible of the endtimes, for example Noah's family in the ark, of Lot's departure from sodom (which differ from each other - Noah has warning and was safe in the ark before the flood, but Lot got out right at the last possible minute [pre wrath?]).

Anyway, going back to what i was saying about being present but looked out for by God, the "type" for this, according to the thing i read, is Daniel's friends being cast into the fire but being unharmed from Daniel 3. Being right in the middle of it all, but being kept safe by God.

Of course, it could be that it is not this, and we are all martyred. Throughout the last almost 2000 years Christians have been martyred, so what makes us special, that's something i always think about. Whenever someone says something like "God loves the church, He wouldn't make it go through the tribulation" i always think didn't He also love the church 1000 years ago, or whenever the catholics were martyring the waldenesians or other groups?

Also, while Jesus mentioned the days of Lot and Noah when discussing endtimes, He also mentions Daniel in Matthew 24.

- as i've mentioned, i dont think belief in a pre trib rapture is a salvation issue, BUT if someone believes in it and it's not true it could be dangerous. For example, if someone takes the mark of the beast because they think it must not be it, since the rapture hasn't happened and it's supposed to come first. Or if people are not prepared for the persecution and then lose faith. Or if they see the pre tribulation rapture as some kind of transactional get out of jail free card. Or fall for the antichrist's lies because they think it's not the end times because the rapture hasnt happened yet. Etc.


- i know many pre trib rapture believers say to stay focused on the sky rather than what's going on down here. Honestly, IF there is no pre trib rapture, that is a great way of having people be unaware of current events and possibly accepting the antichrist/not recognizing him.

i think once THE endtimes begin (as marked by the antichrist making the peace covenant) pretrib people might not recognize him. They may even take part in the persecuting of Christians who speak out against the antichrist...

- one of the verses i've seen given for the rapture is Revelation 4:1

1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter


and saying that John is a "type" of the church, that he was the apostle that Jesus loved the most, and that when a door opens in heaven it means either somone going in or out.

Compared with Revelation 19:11
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war

In my opinion that is not convincing... but they do make a good point that the word "church" is not mentioned again in the rest of the book of Revelation.

Looks like i wrote way too much lol, but this is an interesting subject that i don't get to discuss nearly enough, as often times people just want to repeat what their pastor said. I guess the pre trib rapture is just a comforting thought for many people so they WANT to believe.

 

[Floridafoot]

This is one of the most commonly used verses that those who support the secret rapture use:

Matthew 24:40-44, "Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

Dispensationalists take these verses to mean that Jesus will rapture His followers from the earth while everyone else won’t even know what happened until it’s too late. That’s how they see the fate of the workers left behind in the field or at the mill.

The term “thief” is also used in parts of the Bible about the end times (2 Peter 3:10; 1 Thessalonians 5:2). They all refer to how the timing of Jesus’ arrival at the Second Coming will be a surprise.

This harmonises with the Bible telling us we do not know when Jesus is returning the second time. No one ever knows when a thief is coming to their house.

But none of these verses indicate that Jesus’ arrival, or the rapture of believers, will go unnoticed. In fact, 2 Peter 3:10 states that His appearing will be such a powerful event that the sky will burn.

If we read Matthew 24:39-41 it says, "and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left."

All these verses are saying is that if you look at two random people out living life, they might appear similar, just going about their routines but one was prepared for what was happening while the other one was caught by surprise.

But there isn’t any mention of life on earth continuing on after one person is taken and the other left. This whole section of Matthew 24 is talking about the “day of the Lord,” or the Second Coming. So both the taking and the leaving are happening at the time of Jesus’ return.

Yes this is another passage I've heard to make a case for the pretrib rapture. I can see how this could be misinterpreted. And most often the Scriptures are literal. However, I see what you are saying, that what Holy Spirit is referring to here is a "spiritual readiness". So this would be more comparable to the parable of the virgins with the lamps. Interesting.

 

[Floridafoot]

Looks like i wrote way too much lol, but this is an interesting subject that i don't get to discuss nearly enough

Not at all. I appreciate everyone who takes the time to post a thoughtful reply. This is why I enjoy the forum. I do not get to have these conversations very often in my day to day interactions.

 

[Floridafoot]

is not a salvation issue! I've seen youtube pastor videos where they claim if someone doesn't believe in it that person must not be a Christian. So wrong.

This really burns me up. If you have faith in the work Jesus did on the cross. If you have faith in God's amazing plan for the redemption of humanity, then you are saved. Your salvation is lock tight.

John 18:9:
"That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none."

I know there are members of the forum who believe in a "works" based system. That's fine just not the topic of this thread. No where in the Scriptures does it say "if you have doubts about the rapture, your salvation is revoked". In fact, there is only one thing you can do that is "unforgivable"

Matthew 12:31-32
King James Version
31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

 

[Floridafoot]

as i've mentioned, i dont think belief in a pre trib rapture is a salvation issue, BUT if someone believes in it and it's not true it could be dangerous. For example, if someone takes the mark of the beast because they think it must not be it, since the rapture hasn't happened and it's supposed to come first. Or if people are not prepared for the persecution and then lose faith. Or if they see the pre tribulation rapture as some kind of transactional get out of jail free card. Or fall for the antichrist's lies because they think it's not the end times because the rapture hasnt happened yet. Etc

Yes, this is my main concern. If one is expecting to be delivered from the tribulation, and is not, then what will come of their faith when it all starts breaking bad? I see the possibility for "a great falling away" to take place.

 

[Floridafoot]

'Rapture': Believers perplexed after prediction fails

Followers of an evangelical broadcaster who predicted that Saturday would be Judgement Day are left disappointed after the deadline passes without event.

www.bbc.com

Of course this evangelist even went as far as to name an actual date. Ridiculous. But people still fall for it. Why?

 

[A Freeman]

How bad does it need to get before people realize that we are already in the greatest oppression (tribulation) of all time, and have been in it already for decades?

The invasion of Kuwait, which is described in detail in Biblical prophecy, happened in August of 1990, spawning multiple wars.

On September 11, 2001 the largest psychological, false-flag operation in human history was conducted on American soil, to begin the allegedly never-ending "war on terror", as if it's possible to have a war against a thing. How many actually contemplated what such insanity actually means? How could a truce or peace treaty ever occur, if there's no one to sit across the table from to negotiate?

Subsequently, the U.S. invaded Iraq, Afghanistan and eventually Syria during the "Arab spring" in 2011, which started the so-called Syrian civil war which still goes on today. The U.S. has unlawfully built permanent military bases in both Iraq and in Syria, along with funding, building and arming the largest military in Europe in Ukraine, to wage a proxy war against Russia. Tens of millions have been needlessly killed or displaced.

Along with the disinformation campaign that has been waged by western governments (led by the U.S. and U.K.) and their mainstream media propaganda machine for decades on every conceivable front (military/war, pharmacy/medicine/sorcery, psychological operations, the court systems, the "intelligence" gathering through various and nefarious government agencies - more of which were invented after the Patriot act) to try to conceal these criminal activities from the public, and even after two previous world wars that were orchestrated to make money, destroy as much as possible and then refinance the rebuilding, before repeating the cycle over again, people STILL somehow believe that governments are somehow benevolent, and allegedly looking out for their best interests. And that the media can somehow be trusted.

ALL politicians LIE. A politician is a professional liar. The corporate fictional - for profit - mainstream media is controlled by the same financiers as the corporate fictional governments are, whether they call it "the free press" or not.

We literally are drowning in a sea of disinformation, where theft and murder have been "legalized" in the form of taxes and war. How far do we need to fall away from God before people actually take notice?

In 2020 the true nature of the beast was unmasked in the magic virus scam (CovID-19), when the governments of the world united in masking the public and conducting a "lockdown" of the prison, until they could dupe the majority of the population into being "voluntarily" poisoned. How did they accomplish this feat? People gave into their irrational fears, and gave away their God-given freedoms, exactly as prophesied would happen. And who did the corporate fictional governments get to help coerce the people into doing their bidding (Satan's really)? The corporate fictional organized religions.

We all now have de facto, prima facie evidence that the "new world order" is already here, and has OPENLY been declared. Anyone who cannot see that ALL of the governments and religions are working together AGAINST the people, is still fast asleep spiritually.

There is no "7 year period of tribulation" in the Bible. Because satanic priests, pastors, etc. -- whom Christ referred to as "the (spiritually) blind leading the blind" -- have regurgitated those lies for decades, the spiritually blind have believed them based on a gross misinterpretation of a single passage in Daniel 9.

Daniel’s 70 Weeks Correctly Explained At Last

DANIEL'S 70-WEEKS has been mistakenly interpreted by some to refer to the coming of the antichrist, even though it specifically references THE MESSIAH/CHRIST throughout.

gibraltar-messenger.net

Likewise, there is no such thing as a "pre-trib" or "mid-trib" rapture. Everyone who has ever lived here on Earth -- except for Christ, Whom God sent from heaven to save and to teach us (Matt. 23:10; John 3:13) -- will stand before Christ on Judgement Day (Matt. 25:31-46; John 5:22), when we will all be judged according to our works (Matt. 16:27; Rev. 20:12-15).

We all should really be learning from Christ's Example, how to be on our best behavior, realizing that the standard upon which we will all be judged is The Perfect Law that God gave us. Please take the time to read this message, shared in love and in truth for all and to all.

Peace be upon you.

 

[Flarepath]

My reading of the end of the world is that christians (God's Elect) will suffer in it along with nonchristians-
"If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive.
But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them" (Mark ch 13)

Then Jesus will arrive to rescue christians and whisk them away, or have i misunderstood the scriptures?
"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens" (Mark ch 13)

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

'Rapture': Believers perplexed after prediction fails

Followers of an evangelical broadcaster who predicted that Saturday would be Judgement Day are left disappointed after the deadline passes without event.

www.bbc.com

Of course this evangelist even went as far as to name an actual date. Ridiculous. But people still fall for it. Why?

I remember that guy!
I wasn't a Christian at the time, and had no idea what the rapture was since i wasn't raised Christian, but i remember people at the time discussing the end of the world. The guy later amended it to a different date later that year that also wasn't correct...

And some luciferian cult woman who worships a female false god thought the date was significant, it was when she finished her weird luciferian manuscript, i posted about it a while back.

The complete copy of the manuscript was given to "emad" on Saturday may 21, 2011, a significant day because of a prophecy about the end of the world.

2011 end times prediction - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

According to blackshear, the fact that the manuscript was delivered that day means the prophecy was "not far off from the truth" because by handing "emad" the manuscript it "started divine mother's cycle and sparked the sacred divine energy to flow".

These days there's so many youtubers that seemingly make a career out of predicting the rapture. Despite their prophecies repeatedly not coming true people keep watching their videos. It's so bizarre to me. I'm not saying let's go full Old Testament on them for being false prophets, but at least not give them an audience.

 

[ToxicFemininitySucks]

In my view the Bible is describing a pre wrath rapture, which i guess some refer to as a mid-tribulation rapture? I don't see it as "mid" because i think it happens long after the middle, if the middle is when the antichrist betrays Israel and declares himself God.

Basically, i believe Christians will be around for the first 3.5 years when there is increased persecution from other people/the govt (which are under satan's influence), and then the antichrist will declare himself God and the persecution will pick up, then God will rain down His wrath. This persecution is not the "wrath of God" - the 7 bowls of wrath. I think the rapture will happen right before the bowls of wrath.

The Bible says He has not appointed us to wrath.
1 Thessalonians 5
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

I think Revelation 14 points to pre wrath as well. The angel in vs 16 harvests (the pre wrath rapture), then vs 19 is the wrath of God

14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God


The same chapter does tell us that the mark of the beast already happened, so yes, not a pre tribulation rapture.

9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

Then after this ch 15-16 are about the bowls of God's wrath being poured on the earth, and those who remain

Revelation 15
1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God
...

Im curious how everyone else interprets these verses. If it's not a pre wrath rapture does it mean that all saved believers die before the wrath of God/the final plagues?

 

[A Freeman]

My reading of the end of the world is that christians (God's Elect) will suffer in it along with nonchristians-
"If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive.
But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them" (Mark ch 13)

Then Jesus will arrive to rescue christians and whisk them away, or have i misunderstood the scriptures?
"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens" (Mark ch 13)

Revelation 7:4-9
7:4 And I HEARD the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
7:5 Of the tribe of Judah [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:6 Of the tribe of Asher [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasseh [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:8 Of the tribe of Zebulun [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph/Ephraim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.
7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could count (which is why he was told in verse 4), of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 14:1-4
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the Mount Sion, and with him (Matt. 12:30) an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many "waters", and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
14:3 And they sung as it were a New Song (Isaiah 42:10) before the Throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that "Song" except the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the Earth.
14:4 THESE are they which were not corrupted by women; for they are pure. These are they which follow the Lamb wheresoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb (obeying God NOT women).

The "New Song" is, according to Scripture the "Song of Moses" and the "Song of the Lamb", which are in perfect harmony with one another IF they are properly understood (Matt. 5:17-20).

Revelation 15:3 And they sing the "Song of Moses" (Old Covenant - Deut. 31) the servant of God, AND the "Song of the Lamb" (New Covenant), saying, Great and marvellous [are] Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] Thy Ways, Thou King of the holy people.