American Tax Reform

Lurker

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True tax reform should start by abolishing personal income tax. That being said, I can't find much to indicate that it will hurt me. I've found some articles on liberal sites that say how much it will help the super rich, but that doesn't mean that it will harm the working class.
Thoughts?
 

rainerann

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I agree. I haven’t looked into this recent development a whole lot, but I oppose taxes overall. Usually, people consider that these things only help the rich and deplete social programs, but this isn’t what actually happens when the middle class benefit in any way at all from tax reform.

When the middle class has more disposable income, the economy automatically improves whether the rich benefit from this or not.

Growing up in a small town, I have seen small businesses consistently volunteer higher starting wages than major corporations. I briefly saw something about how tax reform would benefit homeowners. These are the people who need disposable income to improve the economy. Everyone gets bent out of shape that we can’t make the rich more generous when we don’t really need that if we have a large enough population who are able to buy their own homes. I say if the tax reform benefits homeowners, there is a chance it will improve also the economy.

Overall, taxes are the primary way the the rich oppress the poor historically. Taxes have never been an efficient way to distribute wealth or create equality. Taxes have always been the primary way to maintain inequality and preserve the status of the elite. So taxes are bad overall, in my opinion.
 

Aero

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None of that crap about who's gaining the most means anything to the economy. We know that traditionally lower taxes doesn't equal more jobs. So what I'm saying is all of this isn't going to amount to squat for the average consumer. What we should be locked into, is the fact that the government has no way to pay for it. Trump just forced this shit through. And that doesn't surprise me a bit.

If wages start going up a bit in the near future. Ok, I'll say "Thanks, Trump" and be sincere about. But I highly doubt that is going to happen. What reason does corporate America actually have to invest in people again? They already got their tax cuts, and didn't have to invest in people at all. So it makes no sense. They are just kicking the can down the road so we will forever be in debt. As a nation, and as a species.
 

justjess

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Whether it will help or hurt u depends a whole lot on your personal situation.. impossible to tell without having a clue anything about u.

In general it will give the middle class a couple extra bucks on the front end. Then in a couple years there taxes will go way up. Middle class cuts were time limited. Corporate cuts permanant.

Dexuctions lost that typically help lower income brackets include state taxes, property taxes, pmi, cap on mortgage interest deduction, student loan interest, medical expenses etc.. im not sure how anyone sees this as helping the middle class. Those couple exfra dollars u might see from lower income tax will most likely be eaten up somewhere else. For the poor its even dicier - losing head of household status is a hit to single moms for instance - but the more real problem for the poor is that the cuts on the rich and corporations are soo high that federal revenue will be seriously limited and that has to be paid for somehow - the way its usually paid for is by cutting programs for the poor and scaling back benefits such as social security for the elderly and disabled. Again, i dont see how anyone xan say that taking money from fhose most in need to fund private jet write offs for the rich is a good thing.

Trickle down economics does not work, has never worked, and quite frankly we need to leave the whole idea behind like a bad memory instead of digging our feet into it further.
 

Sunshine

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Wow, your entire argument is just a bunch of democrat talking points/scare tactics strung together. Congratulations, now we all know you watch CNN on the regular, and apparently believe what they say.

This suite of reforms has so little in common with the 1980's policies derisively referred to as "trickle-down economics," it smacks of laziness on the part of those same blue-team detractors.

1. Let's start with some simple math: low taxes are Always a good thing, no matter the place, time type of govt. Taxes, be they taken by a king or by Uncle Sam, are money that is taken from individuals and families and theoretically put to use for the common good. We all know that even the best of governments is prone to acts of waste, malfeasance, even corruption, so the less that a govt needs to get its job done, the better. More people keeping their own money = Good. Doesn't matter if they are rich, poor or in between.

2. Liberals in the US love to vilify "the rich," and act as if their "richness" somehow impedes poor people's ability to make themselves rich. This, in fact, is not true. Not only do rich people encourage others to get rich, through hard work, great ideas, and smart investments, but they donate millions of dollars every day of every year to causes, charities, and non-profit organizations, such as hospitals, schools, libraries and museums, women's shelters, food banks, just to name a few. The Obama Administration actually took away some of the incentives for these people to do their good works, specifically tax write-offs. (The part of the income that they give away does not count as taxable income, thus lowering their overall payment to the IRS.)

3. Not only does this new law reinstate some of those personal incentives, it also gives businesses incentives to give away some of their money. To whom, you ask? Why, to their own employees! I guess they forgot to broadcast it on your channel of choice, but the very day the law was passed, some big, giant, evil corporations started giving out $1000 bonuses like candy. AT&T, Boeing, Comcast, Wells Fargo. It's more likely than not that You yourself give some of your own hard-earned money to one or more of these companies. Does it feel good to know that more of your money is going to be passed on to the guys and gals in the trenches than to the executives? Sure it does.

Why did that happen? Because the new tax law is structured to benefit companies that treat their employees well. It's those nifty write-offs again. Win-win.

4. I've asked an accountant, a banker, a stock broker and an economics professor, and they all say the same thing. The most powerful catalyst for growth to our (or any) economy would be to lower the corporate tax rate. In the US, it was 39% , third highest in the world. Sure, the Big Boys pay their cadres of bean counters to find and make use of every little loophole, to keep as many pennies as they can. But Mom & Pop running their diner or their laundromat or their auto parts store can't do that. So now we add the "simplification" part of the tax code reform. The loopholes disappear, everybody pays the same percentages, and the game is actually more fair now than it was before Trump showed up.

Bonus: if the corporate rate here is now 15%, and the corporate rate is 30% in Mexico, where is that widget company going to build its next factory? Corporate rates have been falling all over the world for the past 20 years, as countries strive to be more attractive to foreign investors, including those from the US. Now these investors are going to reevaluate their plans to move manufacturing to China (25%), HQ to Great Britain (18%) and distribution points to Brazil (34%) and Singapore (17%). And build, refurbish, hire and train right here in the good old US of A.
 

justjess

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Some of you lack even the most basic social skills its incredible..

First off i dont really watch tv, let alone cnn. I dont watch the "news" on tv period. I do however READ a lot. And ive read a lot of different analysis of this bill so far. Non partisan analysis. They all say the same thing - cuts for the rich and corporations, barely anything for the middle class and even less for the working poor. Then theres the increased deficit to worry about - a deficit that conservatives were ungodly concerned about when obama was in office but seem to not give a second thought to now for some odd reason.. i wonder why? Where is that money going to be made up from? The backs of the poor, elderly, and disabled. God knows it wont be from the militart budget or israel foreign aid..

You seem to idealize the rich yet accuse me of villifying them. I honestly do neither.. im just realistic. Half the people i know are rich, i grew up fairly wealthy, i dont have rose colored glasses on, im not impressed, but i have no hate in my heart over it either. The entire system holds poor people back from class mobility. Thats another conversation though.

And yeah att gave bonuses, they also just abnounced at least 1000 layoffs. Dont be diverted by smoke screens and good pr.

I wont lose any sleep waiting for these companies to bring job backs. I didnt drink the same kool aid u apparantly did.
 

Kung Fu

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Some of you lack even the most basic social skills its incredible..

First off i dont really watch tv, let alone cnn. I dont watch the "news" on tv period. I do however READ a lot. And ive read a lot of different analysis of this bill so far. Non partisan analysis. They all say the same thing - cuts for the rich and corporations, barely anything for the middle class and even less for the working poor. Then theres the increased deficit to worry about - a deficit that conservatives were ungodly concerned about when obama was in office but seem to not give a second thought to now for some odd reason.. i wonder why? Where is that money going to be made up from? The backs of the poor, elderly, and disabled. God knows it wont be from the militart budget or israel foreign aid..

You seem to idealize the rich yet accuse me of villifying them. I honestly do neither.. im just realistic. Half the people i know are rich, i grew up fairly wealthy, i dont have rose colored glasses on, im not impressed, but i have no hate in my heart over it either. The entire system holds poor people back from class mobility. Thats another conversation though.

And yeah att gave bonuses, they also just abnounced at least 1000 layoffs. Dont be diverted by smoke screens and good pr.

I wont lose any sleep waiting for these companies to bring job backs. I didnt drink the same kool aid u apparantly did.
It's funny how Trump came in guns a blazing with his crazy rhetoric on "fake news" and anti-establishment bullshit when he just signed a bill that helps them even further. Sit on Israel's nuts, check. Cut taxes further for the elite, check. Let's see what else he does to help his masters.
 

The Zone

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What surprises me is how little people actually know about this and comment with emotion and assumptions rather than facts.
 

Kung Fu

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What surprises me is how little people actually know about this and comment with emotion and assumptions rather than facts.
What surprises me is how much of a little gossip queen certain people can be. Instead of acting like a little princess and speaking under your breath come out and address the people you don't agree with.
 

The Zone

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What surprises me is how much of a little gossip queen certain people can be. Instead of acting like a little princess and speaking under your breath come out and address the people you don't agree with.
What exactly prompted this? Gossip? I rarely confer with anyone here. I was just stating that some know very little about American tax law and procedures. Seriously KF, my new years resolution is to actually ignore the constant discourse here. I have better things to do than to get caught up in it day in and day out. I am not on a side. I am not pro or anti Trump. I have no agenda and I am not full of anger nor need to prove my point on anything. In short, I have very little time for another jousting match in that more important things call. Or, I cannot spend all day here and am amazed at how much time I actually have in the past.
 

Helioform

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I believe only corporations should pay taxes. They are required by law to pay 35% federal on their profits, but the vast majority pay considerably less, which is totally unfair. Some don't even pay taxes at all thanks to loopholes in the system. Since a corporation is actually an entity or a sort of person, it would make sense that they pay their share.

With this in mind you can easily see how the AI revolution will make them even more profits since they will eliminate gradually the human workforce. With some kind of government intervention, we could all reap the benefits of having robot workers creating wealth for everyone,, not just the rich. Then we would have more capital to invest in what is called the leisure economy, based on the blockchain.
 

rainerann

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https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/irs-tax-return/2017-tax-reform-legislation-what-you-should-know/L96aFuPhc#businesses

Turbo tax gives s good explanation. Overall, I don’t like taxes at all, but I don’t feel I have a lot to complain over. Personally, I don’t care whether the rich get tax breaks or not because I’m more concerned with reduced military spending anyway. If we didn’t spend so much on military, the change to the corporate tax rate doesn’t matter much.

The filing rates were lowered for everyone so most people will notice a slight difference. However, 12% from 15% for married filing jointly up to 75000 is still ridiculous. Those should all still be lower because what we want is to move money horizontally across the middle classs.

The child tax credit increase is good. The home owner stuff I still need more information on because it sounds like it only applies to houses that are too expensive for the average person.

Overall, I would very loosely say it is good just because there is some balance. However, reviewing it reminds me of how stupid our individual tax ceilings are. When I was 25, I was married and had two kids and made about 40,000 combined, so I didn’t have a whole lot to complain about. It really could have been worse. On the other hand, you still end up feeling like you are being penalized because you are working hard because you make just enough that you don’t qualify for that earned income tax credit and even end up paying an extra 300 on average every year.

I would just shake my head when I would leave after doing my taxes every time. The filing jointly thing seemed to work as a diadvantage. It just seemed so dumb to me.

So I’m very anti tax in general these day because of this in many ways, and the changes are not enough in my opinion. This is one of the reasons I support the liberatarian party. Taxation is theft!
 

Kung Fu

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So I’m very anti tax in general these day because of this in many ways, and the changes are not enough in my opinion. This is one of the reasons I support the liberatarian party. Taxation is theft!
Not only do you not know what you're talking about about but you put out false information like how America is not mostly white, that it's completely modern that you suck the blood off the penises of newborn babies, and now this. Taxes have been a part of every society in some form and is impossible to escape. If you don't like tax why not go live in a forest in a tent?
 

justjess

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What surprises me is how little people actually know about this and comment with emotion and assumptions rather than facts.
Are u referring to me? I could easily flip that statement around and apply it to those who disagree wjth me in this thread.. apparantly decades of similar tax policy resulting ina declining almost dead middle class is easily ignorable by some here. Beats me how but it is what it is i guess.

Rain - they arent going to decrease military spending as a resuly of thr decreased revenue, they arengoing to decrease help to the poor, elderly and disabled. The corporate tax rate doesnt matter to me in general, but it starts to matter when u see what the trade off for lower corporate tax rates and lower taxes on the wealthy means we lose as a society. They have said they are going to addresd entitlements next.. aka social security and medicare, as well as the bare bones we have as a safety net for the poor. This is not an emotional or uninformed statement. But thanks to all for gaslighting me over it..

Also filing married screws us too
 

Kung Fu

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Are u referring to me? I could easily flip that statement around and apply it to those who disagree wjth me in this thread.. apparantly decades of similar tax policy resulting ina declining almost dead middle class is easily ignorable by some here. Beats me how but it is what it is i guess.

Rain - they arent going to decrease military spending as a resuly of thr decreased revenue, they arengoing to decrease help to the poor, elderly and disabled. The corporate tax rate doesnt matter to me in general, but it starts to matter when u see what the trade off for lower corporate tax rates and lower taxes on the wealthy means we lose as a society. They have said they are going to addresd entitlements next.. aka social security and medicare, as well as the bare bones we have as a safety net for the poor. This is not an emotional or uninformed statement. But thanks to all for gaslighting me over it..

Also filing married screws us too
I believe it was referring to both you and I. He likes to beat around the bush rather than come out and say it to who he actually means.
 

rainerann

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I realize that military spending isn't going to get cut. However, I don't care so much about the corporate tax getting cut because the reality is that we shouldn't be depending on the corporate tax for social programs, military, anything.

However, too often when we talk about tax reform it becomes a push and pull between social programs and the rich, and I do think that many people don't understand how taxes affect everyone in between or consider what changes need to be made to improve this area. We don't need more social programs. We don't need the corporate tax. We need to look at the ceilings because that is where most people are affected by these changes.

Changes the tax rate from 15% to 12% if you are married and filing jointly between the range of like 20,000 to 80,000 dollars will make a slight difference. Not a whole lot of a difference and even this works out differently when you file your taxes because you can get the earned income tax credit up to like 35,000 if you have children, which basically means that you don't pay taxes if you have children up to 35,000 dollars.

So the tax ceilings are outdated and we are just layering on more inefficient tax code and being somewhat distracted by the push and pull between rich and poor when it comes to taxes. We just don't hear a lot of people talking about changing the way the ceilings work and this issue sits in the background while we become divided between stereotyping those who support the corporate tax to keep social programs as the hero's helping the poor; or the people who are demonized for helping the rich.

If we could change the ceiling on this tax bracket to range from 35,000 to 75,000 with a 5% tax bracket. This would help the economy the most. Not taxing the rich to keep social programs or finding a way to tax the middle class to keep social programs. If we aren't taxing 50% of this tax bracket already because of the earned income tax credit, then the boundaries should be changed and the tax rate should be lowered to reflect that this is the actual bracket being taxed. Then, this tax rate should be lowered to create horizontal economic distribution that would improve the economy.

I also hope you don't think I was trying to gaslight you. I just thought the article would be helpful. However, I am going to go out on a limb and conclude that you probably think my idea of improving tax code is too idealistic. It probably is, because of the world we live in, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be the better way to go.
 

rainerann

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In reality, the way it works now is that the earned income tax credit works as its own sort of welfare because people who claim children and make around 25,000 dollars a years are actually getting more money back then they are paying into taxes already. Tax season is similar to the day people get their welfare checks. People go out and buy cars and other things with the money they get back that exceeds the money they pay into taxes.

Our whole system is inneficient and deceptive because we spend so much time talking about how the rich are getting perks while the poor are being taken advantage of when the reality is much different. Most people who have children and make under like 35,000 dollars a year will get more money back at tax time than they actually paid in taxes throughout the year. People will children will all get late Christmas bonus' so to speak and I don't mind this. I just think it demonstrates that our tax code is all kinds of inneficient especially when we spend most of our time talking about how the poor are getting a shorter end of the stick than the rich. Many, many people will get free government money just for filing their taxes this year and every other year. It is a strange world we live in.
 
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