“According to tradition...”

Red Sky at Morning

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I have noticed the phrase come up more than once in discussions on this forum. Thinking about it has made me realise that I have a “love-hate” relationship with tradition! Let me explain...

As a child I remember watching “Fiddler on the Roof” - in the musical, Topol makes some very astute observations on the traditions they have as a community:-


When tradition works well, it is like lighting a fire on a hill and that signal being picked up by a watchman on a distant peak, who in turn, lights his fire. Done badly, it is like a game of Chinese Whispers where the thing you end up with might be very different than what it began with. I suppose that traditions often have both elements running through them to varying degrees.

Where tradition goes wrong is when it confuses the original message and elevates a counter-narrative to the level of and primary source material. This aspect can be seen repeatedly in the NT where, through many centuries, a “traditional” understanding of who the Messiah might be (and what He might do) had built up. Consequently, when Jesus arrived, the 1st Century Jewish world was split.

John 7

25Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill? 26But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ? 27Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is.


Does the OT teach that no man would know where the Messiah came from? Not at all!

Micah 5:2

2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Given the time of year and the interweaving of truth and tradition Christians have become accustomed to, perhaps it is worth having a look at traditions good and bad, cherishing the ones that honour the truth and re-evaluating the ones that confuse it?
 
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Just like all Protestants before you, your answer is:

"Heresy is OK, everyone has their own unique, personal truth and everyone's interpretation is completely valid. It's the traditions that gave us the Bible which cannot be trusted! This random book has all the answers"
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Just like all Protestants before you, your answer is:

"Heresy is OK, everyone has their own unique, personal truth and everyone's interpretation is completely valid. It's the traditions that gave us the Bible which cannot be trusted! This random book has all the answers"
With respect, you don’t know what my answer is yet - in fact, “Protestantism” has spawned its own set of unbiblical traditions that are as confusing as any Catholic papal doctrines. Calvin’s “TULIP” comes to mind!

As to “tradition” giving us the Bible, you may have come across the Dead Sea Scrolls...?

With any historical investigation, historians will appreciate the value of primary sources. There are two streams of biblical scholarship out there, one made (in)famous by the Jesus Seminar and names like Bart Ehrman, another that has quietly been accumulating supportive evidence to the internal claims of scripture that they were primary sources...

A couple of good links for further study:-

Dr Bill Cooper* Authenticity Series

“In answer to the many critics who would have the world believe that our Bible is a false record, the CSM presents the Authenticity series of books. The series covers the Book of Genesis; the Book of Joshua; Judges; Jonah; Daniel; Esther; and the New Testament pts 1 & 2. These are not commentaries on these particular Books of the Bible, but each is an investigation into their historical accuracy, integrity, and authenticity. The archaeological and written records of the ancient world are called upon to provide a startling testimony against the critics, the doubters, and the sceptics. Their school of thought was never founded upon facts, but relies solely upon supposition and godless philosophy. The Bible, on the other hand, is seen to be amazingly factual and accurate in all its statements, even on a microscopic level. All this is highlighted in the Authenticity series which we recommend to all.”

Dr Bill Cooper .PhD .ThD


*not William Cooper, conspiracy theorist ;-)
 
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With respect, you don’t know what my answer is yet - in fact, “Protestantism” has spawned its own set of unbiblical traditions that are as equally unbiblical and confusing as any Catholic papal doctrines. Calvin’s “TULIP” comes to mind!

As to “tradition” giving us the Bible, you may have come across the Dead Sea Scrolls...?

With any historical investigation, historians will appreciate the value of primary sources. There are two streams of biblical scholarship out there, one made (in)famous by the Jesus Seminar and names like Bart Ehrman, another that has quietly been accumulating supportive evidence to the internal claims of scripture that they were primary sources...

A couple of good links for further study:-

Dr Bill Cooper* Authenticity Series


*not William Cooper, conspiracy theorist ;-)
Yes, the Dead Sea Scrolls are interesting.

If you accept them and their contents, then do you (specifically, Red) have your own canon that included the Dead Sea texts? do you diverge at all from the Protestant 66 book canon? (which itself changed the Christian Bible by removing 7 books)
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Yes, the Dead Sea Scrolls are interesting.

If you accept them and their contents, then do you (specifically, Red) have your own canon that included the Dead Sea texts? do you diverge at all from the Protestant 66 book canon? (which itself changed the Christian Bible by removing 7 books)
The Dead Sea scrolls reflects a group of books collected together by the Essenes to protect them from those who might have wanted to destroy them. This collection represents the books they didn’t want to get burned and includes both canonical and non-canonical books. If I were to grab my library and lock it in a sealed cellar, I would end up saving what I could, but the process of saving books from destruction does not automatically confer the stamp of holy writ.

The Dead Sea scrolls are interesting because they are a time capsule. Some of the most interesting fragments appear to be of gospels and letters which casts doubt on the doubters claims for late authorship, putting them within the claimed eye-witness period.

Again, I recommend Dr Bill Cooper’s books on these topics.
 

Lisa

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This random book has all the answers"
It’s not a random book..

‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭
All scripture is inspired by God
and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness​
 
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It’s not a random book..

‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭
All scripture is inspired by God
and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness​
Which 'scripture' is Paul referring to here?

It's quite a blanket statement (quite universalist actually)
 

Lisa

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Where in your verse does it say this? where does it specify what 'scriptures' it is talking about?
The Bible didn't even exist when 2 Timothy was written.
Why would Paul be talking about a different book than the one he’s talking about?

God knows what books He’s inspired and they all came together to form the Bible.
 
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Why would Paul be talking about a different book than the one he’s talking about?
What book is he talking about? you still haven't answered that :rolleyes:
(it said "scriptures" too, not "one book is inspired by God")

God knows what books He’s inspired and they all came together to form the Bible.
Where does it teach this in the Bible?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Lest you think I am just being difficult, or passive-aggressive towards Catholics here @Infinityloop I thought you might be interested in something from my background in the Methodist Church. This sounds innocent enough, has the capacity to bring wisdom and balance but also presents a series of opportunities for the “word of God to be made of none effect” - I wonder if people can see why?

The Methodist Quadrilateral

Methodists traditionally use a fourfold approach to learn about our Christian faith and apply it to contemporary issues and to our Christian practice:

Scripture

We seek to discover the word of God through reading the Bible. There are different understandings among Methodists about the Bible's authority in our lives. We need to use resources like different Bible translations, commentaries and Bible reading notes.

Tradition

This is the wisdom and creativity of Christians over time and across the world. It includes inspirational material like hymns, songs, prayers, poetry, Christian art and devotional books,. There are also formally agreed teachings like the creeds, the content of the catechism, and statements and reports from the Methodist Conference.

Reason

We are called to love God with our minds as well as with our hearts. To the best of our ability we need to think things through in the light of reason. This means becoming aware of different points of view, and using our own critical thinking to make sense of God's world.

Experience

Methodism particularly stresses the importance of our own experience of God's grace working in our lives. We gain wisdom and maturity from life experience, especially when we pray and reflect about our story with other Christians.

 

Red Sky at Morning

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What book is he talking about? you still haven't answered that :rolleyes:
(it said "scriptures" too, not "one book is inspired by God")



Where does it teach this in the Bible?
Would you conclude that “all scripture” was actually intended by Paul to refer all religious writings, no matter how contradictory to the Gospels, letters and the OT?
 
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Would you conclude that “all scripture” was actually intended by Paul to refer all religious writings, no matter how contradictory to the Gospels, letters and the OT?
Could very easily, the verse is not specific about anything. "all scripture" is a massive statement to make. It's conclusively not referring to the Bible itself (which took centuries to be actually canonized), and it's certainly not referring to his own epistle, nor does it specify it's speaking about the other epistles (since you mentioned 'letters').
 
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The passage it comes from certainly doesn't say:
"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, and how from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts , Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude and St John of Patmos' Apocalypse are inspired by God (but not Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and I & II Maccabees despite their incorporation in the very Septuagint I personally quote from and definitely not Enoch and other earlier Jewish texts - I warn you DON"T include other books with the list above, thanks, Paul) and are useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work."
- 2 Timothy 3:14-17

It certainly doesn't say this because it doesn't specify anything.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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I will not be the first to note that Peter believed the writings of Paul to be difficult to understand and “scripture”

2 Peter 3

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all hisepistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
 
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I will not be the first to note that Peter believed the writings of Paul to be difficult to understand and “scripture”

2 Peter 3

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all hisepistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
That just complicates things further.

The word itself used is graphē (γραφὴ ) which differs by context. Fundamentally it just means 'writing'.

There is no clarity whatsoever given to which is included in the 'all scripture' and which is not. For Peter to consider Paul's letters to be 'scripture' (under your's and Lisa's context of the passage from the verse from 2 Timothy) does not contradict the original problem that comes out of Lisa's quotation of that verse. It states nothing.
It's just impossible to actually be Bible-only because you will inevitably have to resort to outside authority in deciding what is and isn't "scripture" anyway (however that clearly can't be the early Church, seeing how you took 7 books out of the Bible). There is no way around this, unless you take Lisa's "all scripture" entirely literally to apply to literally all religious texts of any religion (which is not necessarily negative per se).
Else there is either: Tradition or Relativism.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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That just complicates things further.

The word itself used is graphē (γραφὴ ) which differs by context. Fundamentally it just means 'writing'.

There is no clarity whatsoever given to which is included in the 'all scripture' and which is not. For Peter to consider Paul's letters to be 'scripture' (under your's and Lisa's context of the passage from the verse from 2 Timothy) does not contradict the original problem that comes out of Lisa's quotation of that verse. It states nothing.
It's just impossible to actually be Bible-only because you will inevitably have to resort to outside authority in deciding what is and isn't "scripture" anyway. There is no way around this, unless you take Lisa's "all scripture" entirely literally to apply to literally all religious texts of any religion (which is not necessarily negative per se).
To a degree, concentrating on minutiae in order to miss the big picture is akin to the strategy of the defence team of OJ Simpson...

Paul clearly did not regard the writings of all spiritual traditions as equally valid. He would not have contended to the truth of the Gospel if he did.
 
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