What is your personal belief system?

floss said:

Hey!, I miss you. Hope life has been pleasant for you. Many things has happened to me after the forum shut down. The dark side has gotten ahold of me afterward. I denounced Jesus Christ and a hellstorm went my way. Maybe because I needed another trial to strengthened my faith. I went back to the things I used to do, astral projection, magick, new age beliefs(I am God...), also I join many "cult", then I became an Atheist. But nothing really satisfy my soul to the core, my heart felt empty. But eversince yesterday, the Holy Spirit came upon me with great convinction that I cannot deny. I broke down crying in joy because the Lord wanted me back. I'm the lost sheep that needed guidances and He was there when I needed the most eventhough I turned my back on Him. The love is real, God is truly showing me how much he cared for me. I hope everyone get to experiences this. My broken heart is healing in his Name.

For everyone that hasn't experiences this feeling, please considered that I'm speaking from the bottom of my heart that God truly love you when you needed the most. I admitted that I'm such a terrible person but know this, the Shepard will never let go of his lost sheep.

This is not a fairy tale.

Much love to all, Amen

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I hope you have a good Christian church to welcome you back! If not, for your own sake please find a good bible believing church. You need all the support you can get. You're at high risk of spiritual attack with that history.

No way, no fairy tale! He is truth and let us all cling to Him.
The most wonderful thing for believers in Yeshua/Jesus is that whomever the Father gives Him, He will not let go. We are His.
So comforting!
Love ya, brother!

Loki said:

Thanks! Yeah, my cousin and grandmother passed away suddenly (house fire) last year and without his faith I don't know that my uncle (they were his son and mother, plus his home) would still be with us today. It has been hard for me as well, I love my grandma, she practically raised me, and my cousin was more like my brother, but for whatever reason I have a mind that is better suited for dealing with stress and pain. It's nice to think that there is potential I may "see" them again in some form once I pass on, or that their souls have visited me in my dreams since they passed. I like to believe that is the case, but I don't need to believe it in order to cope, and I understand that potentially my interest in believing in such things is my brain's own way of coping with mortality, loss, and existential dread.

PS. Everyone, please be sure that your fire alarms are working in your house. It's not something we think about often, until it's too late.

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Thank you for sharing that Loki, my sympathies to you and your family. My fire alarm is way to sensitive, it goes off when i make toast so im safe !
i remember the times i have lost family and each time was different. my grandmother passed when i was thirteen, she had dementia for most of my life so i never formed a popper bond with her and the loss, though it was painful in the short term, was relatively easy to deal with. i recall wondering if in an afterlife i may meet her with a complete personality and mind and have eternity to get to know her. the second loss was my uncle , again i wasn't close to him either (i have a very distant family tree). he took his own life to pay his children's gambling debts and his own with the life insurance pay out.
at first i felt anger, that he could be so selfish to do such a thing to his family. then as i matured and i learned the reasons for his act i realised how selfless he had been , and how wrong i was.
i spent the best years of my life in a state of depression. plagued by suicidal thoughts almost hourly 365 days a year. i never felt like i fitted in, that i was a failures in my education due to procrastination and laziness. i had terrible luck with women and accumulated many Freindzone memberships then just before Christmas back in 2012 i met my savoir in the love of my life. (i was planning my suicide for January) . i fell head over heels and we conceived our child in the holidays. I've never been happier. now i am plagued my marriage requests and hugs from my family. i don't know if it was divine intervention , but since then i have become a new person . i have made choices to help people who are in the same position as i was and my life is a million times richer for it. the Dark thoughts are always there, somewhere like Dementors lurking in the shadowy corners of my mind. when times are hard they sometimes come back, but my Son and his mother are like a patronus charging them down. If a higher power subliminally helped me through all this then i thank them, though i have never been religious so i see no reason to start. just keep doing good things for the benefit of my fellow man (and woman) and that is all the nurturing my soul needs.
(sorry for the Harry Potter reference it was just the best metaphor i could think of typing fast lol)

Red Sky at Morning said:

Hi Observer,

I couldn't help but say something from the other side of the fence - I follow Jesus because he really is who he says he is. Sure, I have had times in my life when I was glad I could turn to God, perhaps in the same way as you might have hit hard times and been glad to turn to your parents! Just because I was glad that they were there does not lead me to doubt their existence

I have seen a number of healings in the name of Jesus first hand but never filmed them so the best I can do is share a link and leave it to you what to make if it...

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Hi Red Sky..

Please know that although my reply may seem harsh, i have nothing but respect for Christians such as yourself and i know that your faith is extremely important to you i mean you no disrespect i am merely a quizzical mind in search of Truth. having said that i have trouble understanding some of your post.
"because he really is who he says he is" i wasn't aware Jesus ever left behind a gospel? i know there are the Dead see scrolls, but most christian religious institutions disregard these.
do you have any hard evidence of this claim? usually when i have this discussion we end up with the fact it is all taken on faith alone.
you post a video as proof but this unfortunately is lost on me, i may be assuming too much but i will guess you have not seen these practices debunked? Derren Brown's "miracle" is a good place to start (purely because he's a great showman and it's as entertaining as it is informative) though i have seen him accused of employing the assistance of Satan and being a "deceiver". it's always worth pointing out to those sceptics that he spends much more time debunking the Occult "magic" practised by 19th century magicians and clairvoyants so loathed my many in your religious persuasion.
i'm sorry i don't understand the other part, do you mean you turned to God as a substitute for parents or as an added layer of solace? in either case you prove my point that psychologically the belief in God acts as a form of reassurance when faced with questions that don't have answers. an Opium for the soul's pain if you will.

observer said:

Hi Red Sky..

Please know that although my reply may seem harsh, i have nothing but respect for Christians such as yourself and i know that your faith is extremely important to you i mean you no disrespect i am merely a quizzical mind in search of Truth. having said that i have trouble understanding some of your post.
"because he really is who he says he is" i wasn't aware Jesus ever left behind a gospel? i know there are the Dead see scrolls, but most christian religious institutions disregard these.
do you have any hard evidence of this claim? usually when i have this discussion we end up with the fact it is all taken on faith alone.
you post a video as proof but this unfortunately is lost on me, i may be assuming too much but i will guess you have not seen these practices debunked? Derren Brown's "miracle" is a good place to start (purely because he's a great showman and it's as entertaining as it is informative) though i have seen him accused of employing the assistance of Satan and being a "deceiver". it's always worth pointing out to those sceptics that he spends much more time debunking the Occult "magic" practised by 19th century magicians and clairvoyants so loathed my many in your religious persuasion.
i'm sorry i don't understand the other part, do you mean you turned to God as a substitute for parents or as an added layer of solace? in either case you prove my point that psychologically the belief in God acts as a form of reassurance when faced with questions that don't have answers. an Opium for the soul's pain if you will.

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I think you ask some great questions so don't feel the need to apologise. Also, as you don't know me personally you can only gather an idea for my reasons for faith from a few points gleaned from messages (and I'm not much of a writer!!)

OK - taking each point in no particular order...

On the God/Parents question - the Freudian logic that I only believe in God because there are times in my life when I have really needed Him. That same logic would have me denying my parents existence as there are times I have needed them!!

On the question of the miraculous, I can only share one from personal experience, and leave you to make of it what you will..

My brother had a girlfriend when he was about 17 who had some very severe back trouble. She had a twisted spine and was given till her mid 20s before she would wind up in a wheelchair. She lived a few hours away from us and had come to visit with her friend for the weekend. That particular weekend Jim Sepulvida was sharing his experiences at an auditorum near to us and we had all wanted to hear him speak so we went.

Just to mention, this was 25 years ago and Jim is no longer with us but I found a YouTube video of his testimony.


Anyway, at the end of the meeting, he went into a time of praying for the sick. Various people had gone up to the front but she didn't. There was a pause and Jim stopped, saying that the Lord was telling him there were five women there with back trouble.

Four came forward...

Jim stopped and said there was still a woman with back trouble that needed to come forward. She told me afterwards she thought at that moment 'I'm 17 - that means I'm a girl - it's not me'

Jim paused, then said 'OK, will the GIRL with back trouble please come forward!'

She did.

No-one touched her and she was certainly not a regular at 'that' sort of church, but as Jim prayed for her she fell backwards and looked like she wad fast asleep!!! When she came to after a little while, she was smiling from ear to ear and ran up the steps to us, then round the hall again... When she had calmed down a bit she told us that she had felt the love and presence of God and had the physical sensation of her spine being knocked into line!

Returning the doctors she had a series of tests and was pronounced inexplicably healed.

I'm at the gym now, but I left your Bible authenticity questions unanswered so I will give you my response on that later on if you like?

That was awesome Red Sky. I can definitely related since I had witnesses similar occurence with my own eyes. When the almighty God come upon you will fall down. Only God want to heal people for free. My friend witness people throwing away their walking crutches and was healed.

Red Sky at Morning said:

I think you ask some great questions so don't feel the need to apologise. Also, as you don't know me personally you can only gather an idea for my reasons for faith from a few points gleaned from messages (and I'm not much of a writer!!)

OK - taking each point in no particular order...

On the God/Parents question - the Freudian logic that I only believe in God because there are times in my life when I have really needed Him. That same logic would have me denying my parents existence as there are times I have needed them!!

On the question of the miraculous, I can only share one from personal experience, and leave you to make of it what you will..

My brother had a girlfriend when he was about 17 who had some very severe back trouble. She had a twisted spine and was given till her mid 20s before she would wind up in a wheelchair. She lived a few hours away from us and had come to visit with her friend for the weekend. That particular weekend Jim Sepulvida was sharing his experiences at an auditorum near to us and we had all wanted to hear him speak so we went.

Just to mention, this was 25 years ago and Jim is no longer with us but I found a YouTube video of his testimony.

Anyway, at the end of the meeting, he went into a time of praying for the sick. Various people had gone up to the front but she didn't. There was a pause and Jim stopped, saying that the Lord was telling him there were five women there with back trouble.

Four came forward...

Jim stopped and said there was still a woman with back trouble that needed to come forward. She told me afterwards she thought at that moment 'I'm 17 - that means I'm a girl - it's not me'

Jim paused, then said 'OK, will the GIRL with back trouble please come forward!'

She did.

No-one touched her and she was certainly not a regular at 'that' sort of church, but as Jim prayed for her she fell backwards and looked like she wad fast asleep!!! When she came to after a little while, she was smiling from ear to ear and ran up the steps to us, then round the hall again... When she had calmed down a bit she told us that she had felt the love and presence of God and had the physical sensation of her spine being knocked into line!

Returning the doctors she had a series of tests and was pronounced inexplicably healed.

I'm at the gym now, but I left your Bible authenticity questions unanswered so I will give you my response on that later on if you like?

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Red Sky

thank you, this is my first time on the VC forums but i have entered previous online discussions and was misunderstood to be rude and callous. just didn't want to repeat the mistake and offend.

i used my Partner's grandmother as an example because she is the only practising christian i know. and i don't know any Muslims etc. (In my part of the world, Atheism / agnosticism the the most popular view point). and although she was always a christian, when i ask her why? that is the main reason she gives me, other than being raised in a Methodist household .
I would argue that parents have physical bodies, are visible, present biological organisms and provable to exist, and so not really comparable to God. Not that i don't think "god" -for lack of a better word- exists. it's just that nobody has ever provided indisputable proof. and my belief is subjective, and could be wrong.

that story is wonderful and i can only imagine how she felt after being cured. though i have to ask.. is she still cured or did the effects wear off ? although your story is compelling i am not convinced. simply because you are an anonymous poster on a forum and could be telling a pack of lies, with out a doctors testimony and viewing her medical records, or witnessing this and you claim to have. i would think myself very naive to believe you. i could be wrong, and you could be telling the truth. I ask myself , "why would you lie?" to convert me ? to Pimp miracle healing ? i don't think either of them are the case in this instance because how could you benefit from the outcomes, unless it was just for fun. maybe you work for them and it is simply advertising. or maybe you are one of the tribal "if a million people believe the same thing as me then i cant be crazy" types. or maybe you are honest and everything you have said is true!!!
I hope one day i do see proof. and i can come back here and tell you you were right , im sorry i ever doubted you ! but i cant see that happening, till that day comes i wish you peace and happiness whatever your motive

observer said:

Red Sky

thank you, this is my first time on the VC forums but i have entered previous online discussions and was misunderstood to be rude and callous. just didn't want to repeat the mistake and offend.

i used my Partner's grandmother as an example because she is the only practising christian i know. and i don't know any Muslims etc. (In my part of the world, Atheism / agnosticism the the most popular view point). and although she was always a christian, when i ask her why? that is the main reason she gives me, other than being raised in a Methodist household .
I would argue that parents have physical bodies, are visible, present biological organisms and provable to exist, and so not really comparable to God. Not that i don't think "god" -for lack of a better word- exists. it's just that nobody has ever provided indisputable proof. and my belief is subjective, and could be wrong.

that story is wonderful and i can only imagine how she felt after being cured. though i have to ask.. is she still cured or did the effects wear off ? although your story is compelling i am not convinced. simply because you are an anonymous poster on a forum and could be telling a pack of lies, with out a doctors testimony and viewing her medical records, or witnessing this and you claim to have. i would think myself very naive to believe you. i could be wrong, and you could be telling the truth. I ask myself , "why would you lie?" to convert me ? to Pimp miracle healing ? i don't think either of them are the case in this instance because how could you benefit from the outcomes, unless it was just for fun. maybe you work for them and it is simply advertising. or maybe you are one of the tribal "if a million people believe the same thing as me then i cant be crazy" types. or maybe you are honest and everything you have said is true!!!
I hope one day i do see proof. and i can come back here and tell you you were right , im sorry i ever doubted you ! but i cant see that happening, till that day comes i wish you peace and happiness whatever your motive

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No worries and no offence taken whatsoever. You are absolutely in the right place - if all this is true, then God is well able to meet you where you are at in a way that meets your questions and doubts. Ask Him and then be open to getting an answer. While faith is reaching beyond what can be popped in a test tube and measured, it is not an irrational or unreasonable thing...

God bless

observer said:

Red Sky

thank you, this is my first time on the VC forums but i have entered previous online discussions and was misunderstood to be rude and callous. just didn't want to repeat the mistake and offend.

i used my Partner's grandmother as an example because she is the only practising christian i know. and i don't know any Muslims etc. (In my part of the world, Atheism / agnosticism the the most popular view point). and although she was always a christian, when i ask her why? that is the main reason she gives me, other than being raised in a Methodist household .
I would argue that parents have physical bodies, are visible, present biological organisms and provable to exist, and so not really comparable to God. Not that i don't think "god" -for lack of a better word- exists. it's just that nobody has ever provided indisputable proof. and my belief is subjective, and could be wrong.

that story is wonderful and i can only imagine how she felt after being cured. though i have to ask.. is she still cured or did the effects wear off ? although your story is compelling i am not convinced. simply because you are an anonymous poster on a forum and could be telling a pack of lies, with out a doctors testimony and viewing her medical records, or witnessing this and you claim to have. i would think myself very naive to believe you. i could be wrong, and you could be telling the truth. I ask myself , "why would you lie?" to convert me ? to Pimp miracle healing ? i don't think either of them are the case in this instance because how could you benefit from the outcomes, unless it was just for fun. maybe you work for them and it is simply advertising. or maybe you are one of the tribal "if a million people believe the same thing as me then i cant be crazy" types. or maybe you are honest and everything you have said is true!!!
I hope one day i do see proof. and i can come back here and tell you you were right , im sorry i ever doubted you ! but i cant see that happening, till that day comes i wish you peace and happiness whatever your motive

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By the way, and again to affirm you - if you don't honestly face your doubts it's like building a house without a foundation...

There are lots of intelligent sites out there that give thoughtful responses to legitimate questions - I quite like www.reasonsforjesus.com

That having been said, I am happy to answer any questions you have as well as I can...

observer said:

Red Sky

thank you, this is my first time on the VC forums but i have entered previous online discussions and was misunderstood to be rude and callous. just didn't want to repeat the mistake and offend.

i used my Partner's grandmother as an example because she is the only practising christian i know. and i don't know any Muslims etc. (In my part of the world, Atheism / agnosticism the the most popular view point). and although she was always a christian, when i ask her why? that is the main reason she gives me, other than being raised in a Methodist household .
I would argue that parents have physical bodies, are visible, present biological organisms and provable to exist, and so not really comparable to God. Not that i don't think "god" -for lack of a better word- exists. it's just that nobody has ever provided indisputable proof. and my belief is subjective, and could be wrong.

that story is wonderful and i can only imagine how she felt after being cured. though i have to ask.. is she still cured or did the effects wear off ? although your story is compelling i am not convinced. simply because you are an anonymous poster on a forum and could be telling a pack of lies, with out a doctors testimony and viewing her medical records, or witnessing this and you claim to have. i would think myself very naive to believe you. i could be wrong, and you could be telling the truth. I ask myself , "why would you lie?" to convert me ? to Pimp miracle healing ? i don't think either of them are the case in this instance because how could you benefit from the outcomes, unless it was just for fun. maybe you work for them and it is simply advertising. or maybe you are one of the tribal "if a million people believe the same thing as me then i cant be crazy" types. or maybe you are honest and everything you have said is true!!!
I hope one day i do see proof. and i can come back here and tell you you were right , im sorry i ever doubted you ! but i cant see that happening, till that day comes i wish you peace and happiness whatever your motive

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Let me tell you something that helped me think about faith. I wrote this almost as a 'note to self' about a year ago btw...

"I was wondering the other day about artificial intelligence and where it all might head. The idea took me down an unexpected turn you might find interesting...

I imagined a science fiction scenario where quite unexpectedly in a future version of Halo on the X-Box 5 a computer generated character suddenly became self aware. This blue skinned computer generated alien suddenly found it was able to explore its world, gather resources needful for its survival, avoid conflict and even enjoy the views. In its own inexplicable way it has the idea 'I think, therefore I am!'

But where is our blue soldier? Simply composed of finely engineered machine code stored on a powerful machine, only re-activated when the console is switched on. This digital life is the only one our brave new artificial form knows. Soon he starts to ask questions of his environment. He finds his world is finite, obeys some predictable laws and in his own way he sets about becoming a scientist, measuring, documenting and understanding everything he can, within his reach. One figure he can't properly understand in the green human figure who sometimes appears, guns blazing. Occasionally he seems like an unstoppable foe, other times an easy target. His behaviour is quite erratic and different to everything else in his world. The way he fights follows none of the complex algorithms of the blue alien inhabitants. It is all quite inexplicable!

I became a Christian at an early age, so for me it felt very natural to see a world where God 'did things'. It was only years later that I came across atheists and humanists. It was later still that I was able to empathise with their view of the world in a way that I could articulate how those people would hold a perspective of a bitter struggle between science and religion. In a world of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and even Scoobie-Doo, there is never any room for truth beyond the things we can predictably measure or fully understand.

In the same way our blue alien could conclude that despite the behaviour of that one strange human in his world, the idea of the 'beyond' was meaningless. It can't be touched, reached or even imagined. In short, our newly emerged intelligence could quickly become in his own small way, a scientific materialist. If he did, he would be wrong!

Pushing the example a little further, perhaps using a chat function, the blue alien and the human could lay down their weapons and get to know one another. Our new AI life could find out about a world beyond his, a bedroom, snacks, parents. Some of this would be beyond our blue friends comprehension but that alone would not mean it was untrue, just that it sat outside the frame of its experience.

If you don't know Jesus, but suspect there might be something different about him, why don't you do the brave thing and ask him to make himself known to you. I know in writing this that the whole idea may push lots of buttons to the scientific mind. Let me challenge you with this - if God is real he is well able to reach into your world and communicate with you.

Thomas, after Jesus had risen from the dead was unconvinced by reports from others. A natural realist, he famously said that "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe." People call him doubting Thomas but from another perspective he was also just being honest. He let it be known what kind of evidence he would need to in order to have faith.

Jesus met him where he was at and provided him with more than enough to convince him. In the same way, even if you full of skepticism and disappointment with religious systems, if you come to Jesus himself, full of doubts and questions, he can meet you where you're at.

The first step is just to come as you are. He's waiting for you to start the conversation."

Red Sky

Though i find it a vague metaphor i get what you're saying, like the Aliens concept where when people try to fathom the motives of E.Ts visiting us like invasion, observation or peaceful alliances, someone said "can an ant fathom the motives of humans that walk by?" if god exists im sure it's motives are far beyond our comprehension. like the Arrival movie that came out recently where the Aliens thought in and used circular linguistics rather that linear sequential thought like ours. if a being(s) were capable of designing the entire fabric of the universe and perhaps beyond it would truly have intelligence far beyond the reaches of our own. i have heard comparisons between quantum theory and quantum computer coding before and dwelt on it a lot but it hurts my head, then that brings me back to the ant and the human. who knows maybe AI will one day have the capability to understand the universe and give us the answer. I chose to believe that it is all by design, that something so intricate as the workings of atoms, bee's, humans, planets and galaxies cant all just happen by random chance! there has to be a cause for it all.
I once read that scientists exploring the big bang theory came to the conclusion that just before the big bang the universe in it's hot dense state was 50/50 matter and anti matter. when the two meet they annihilate and cancel out. so it could never expand because it was constantly destroying it's self, then for some unknown reason the particles switched to more like 90/10 in favour of matter , this gave the matter particles a chance to expand into the void, and thus the universe was born. a nice metaphor was imagine 100 coins spinning side by side on a table, probability tell us half will land on heads and half tails. but someone intentionally caused them all to land on heads! while this is just a theory it is definitely food for thought. most religions ancient say in the beginning there was chaos, and from it sprang the world (universe)
then theres consciousness and the new science around that (i say new because scientists don't call religion / philosophy a science) called noetics. to me it is a huge puzzle we are slowly putting together, microscopic piece by piece. one day probably not in our lifetimes we will reach the truth through science, then people like me will have the answers.
the bible says a lot of good things, it is the foundation our laws are built upon and i believe most people need that guidance to discern between right and wrong, however it is dangerous. in the wrong hands it can be used as a tool for evil people to justify evil actions. for that reason i chose to go without it. funnily enough im my half assed research into these matters i generally agree with the Wicca, pagans, pantheists and luciferians! scary i know. then again i don't think ive actually tried prayer, only meditation.
maybe i am just a doubting Thomas. i don't believe in a personal God, and the Abrahamic god - to me- seems like and utter psychopath, maybe he reflects the way humans act, maybe we reflect him, compare Sodom and gamorha to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. not in terms of the reasons for their destruction , but that fact they were utterly destroyed because someone with a god complex deemed it necessary. would god look at President Truman with disgust or with empathy? there are many conspiracy theories about world war 1, 2 and 3 being orchestrated to bend humanity to the will of an ideal composed by a group of humans,. is this not dissimilar to the flood ? just wipe them out and start again? is that a moral way of thinking? i don't think so. you may say God changed his mind and was persuaded to stop massacring humans by the covenants but how fickle and vain is that ! i give you free will but if you don't love and adore me or fit my expectations i will wipe you out, i have no need for you. maybe i misunderstand but that's how i interprate it. if there is a god i don't think the bible get's him right. like a father beating his children because they don't live up to his expectations. and the best answer people who defend it can come up with is "god works in mysterious ways, he has a plan, everything for a reason" well id sooner be left out of it.

I guess all I wanted to say with my little story was that whilst God is infinite, he is also capable of meeting us on our level without reducing that infinity. Have you ever had a conversation about rollercoasters with a 9 year old, for example? You can choose to meet someone where they are at.

There is definitely a strong Luciferian narrative going on across all the media at the moment but that comes as no surprise to me. Eventually people will choose sides...

With regard to the Old Testament, your picture of God is one I recognise from Richard Dawkins characterisation. Let me ask you though - have you ever studied the Nephilim mentioned in Genesis 6:3, Enoch and the implications that has for some of the understanding of the blood and guts R rated action of books like Joshua?

i find Richard Dawkins rude and arrogant so i generally try to avoid him but i can see your comparison yes. and yes i know of the Nephillim concept and the propaganda in those books

observer said:

i find Richard Dawkins rude and arrogant so i generally try to avoid him but i can see your comparison yes. and yes i know of the Nephillim concept and the propaganda in those books

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With being on the VC forum I wonder if your ideas have ever been dismissed by a person as a 'Conspiracy Theorist'... Sometimes people can use language to dismiss a whole swath of ideas...

Forgive me for presuming, but I wonder if you are applying your test of irrefutable proof to the ideas you seem more favourably disposed to such as aliens, Noetics etc?

These are my first posts on these forums and you are the first contesting conversation i have had. i am somewhat of a newbie. I do enjoy conspiracy theory's but without proof, i don't believe them to be fact.
im guessing you are referring to my use of the word Propaganda. and i don't really want to get into that because i know it will offend people but that is what i believe those books to be, considering they were wrote in a time of war (or after). It makes sense to make the other side look evil.
you misunderstand my "favourable disposition" on these subjects
Aliens - i have seen no irrefutable proof that aliens exist or have visited this planet or even communicated with Humans. however there is abundant information and a very high probability that all three are possible. the chances we are alone are much lower than the opposite. therefore all matters concerning them hang in a sort limbo. once we have irrefutable proof it will be as undeniable as the earth being round or the clouds in the sky. it will be scientific fact. until that day it is nothing but a theory.
same goes for Noetics. there have been countless theories of what the soul and consciousness if for as far back as we can see. though every conclusion we as a species have come to so far is unmovable and has no basis other than collective agreement of nothing more than opinion. there were no facts. until we open the box the cat is both dead and alive. Noetics differs because theories are actually being tested by scientific means. proof is being collected recorded and the results quantified. the answer may well be "sorry we didn't find anything" but that is the beauty of science, discovery of fact usually comes after many failures while looking for it. but for now Noetics is still in that limbo.
we cant just be satisfied with what we already know, there is always a new field to explore, and noetics is the baby of them all.
Until i see proof , a personal God is in that limbo too. at least for me anyway. but if we don't explore and test the theories , we will never prove them. and from what i can understand reading physics papers (i am quite limited) we are trying to prove the God theory too.
I am an observer. i don't come up with the theories or brandish them like a crucifix in the face of my opponents. and if they are proven wrong it is not something to be bitter or down trodden about . because it just means we are getting closer to the truth. and that is the most important thing. otherwise we might as well go back to the dark ages.

observer said:

These are my first posts on these forums and you are the first contesting conversation i have had. i am somewhat of a newbie. I do enjoy conspiracy theory's but without proof, i don't believe them to be fact.
im guessing you are referring to my use of the word Propaganda. and i don't really want to get into that because i know it will offend people but that is what i believe those books to be, considering they were wrote in a time of war (or after). It makes sense to make the other side look evil.
you misunderstand my "favourable disposition" on these subjects
Aliens - i have seen no irrefutable proof that aliens exist or have visited this planet or even communicated with Humans. however there is abundant information and a very high probability that all three are possible. the chances we are alone are much lower than the opposite. therefore all matters concerning them hang in a sort limbo. once we have irrefutable proof it will be as undeniable as the earth being round or the clouds in the sky. it will be scientific fact. until that day it is nothing but a theory.
same goes for Noetics. there have been countless theories of what the soul and consciousness if for as far back as we can see. though every conclusion we as a species have come to so far is unmovable and has no basis other than collective agreement of nothing more than opinion. there were no facts. until we open the box the cat is both dead and alive. Noetics differs because theories are actually being tested by scientific means. proof is being collected recorded and the results quantified. the answer may well be "sorry we didn't find anything" but that is the beauty of science, discovery of fact usually comes after many failures while looking for it. but for now Noetics is still in that limbo.
we cant just be satisfied with what we already know, there is always a new field to explore, and noetics is the baby of them all.
Until i see proof , a personal God is in that limbo too. at least for me anyway. but if we don't explore and test the theories , we will never prove them. and from what i can understand reading physics papers (i am quite limited) we are trying to prove the God theory too.
I am an observer. i don't come up with the theories or brandish them like a crucifix in the face of my opponents. and if they are proven wrong it is not something to be bitter or down trodden about . because it just means we are getting closer to the truth. and that is the most important thing. otherwise we might as well go back to the dark ages.

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Hi Observer,

Thanks for replying and helping me understand your perspective better... One thing I like about agnostics is that they have an admirable humility in terms of the extent of their boundaries of knowledge. You rarely meet bigoted agnostics (unless it is towards those who feel they have discovered 'the truth').

My concern for the agnostic is that to step from that neutral stance to having faith in something beyond what can be reached through science, philosophy or human effort is a quest that reaches out for the impossible (rather like my poor X-Box character trying to reach beyond the boundaries of his world to bring in answers beyond his reach). I do believe in the value of scientific and technological progress but in terms of us being able to reach God using these tools it might be like using a boat to reach the moon!

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I didn't understand the doubting point of view as I grew up as I saw numerous answered prayers and occasional healings of family members and friends.

I never became a Christian through someone arguing me into faith... I came to faith one Christmas morning when I was 7 or eight listening to an old 1974 album (link below) before I was old enough and sophisticated enough to doubt, but the things I have seen since and the answers I have found have convinced 'beyond reasonable doubt'

I won't keep beating you up with replies, unless you want to chat some more, but I do hope you don't go through life like U2, saying 'I still haven't found what I'm looking for...'

God bless

Not in reply to anything but I was blown away by the sheer beauty of the California desert, where seeds that have been dormant for many years are flourishing. Google 'California desert blooms 2017'... I think there is something of a metaphor there for what can happen in the life of a Christian when the seeds of God's Word which have been buried deep and hidden are brought to life by the Holy Spirit...

Red Sky at Morning
May I ask you?
Are you catholic, protestant, or ...?

Sunny said:

Red Sky at Morning
May I ask you?
Are you catholic, protestant, or ...?

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Hi Sunny,

I became a Christian before I knew what a denomination was, and long before I could spell it. I first attended a C of E church, went to a Baptist church in the summer when we were on holidays as a family, then got a bit turned off the formality of the C of E and went to a Pentecostal church for a few years. At university I went to a non-denominational fellowship and also dated a Catholic and now divide my churchgoing between a predominantly black, amazing non-denominational fellowship where I am very much at home along with two local churches, a methodist and a C of E!!!!

...you did ask!

I believe people live to embellish the truths they come across with traditions... I think that part of that is the natural human instinct to make things a bit more special, or to differentiate their 'group' from the way others do it. I don't think this pattern is wrong in some ways as some cultures are more extravert and some more respectful - the fact that some Christians worship best in a formal anglican church and others feel free to jump around and put their hands in the air doesn't reflect confusion, rather it shows a God who meets people where they are at.

Where I do have an issue is where tradition and church teachings supercede the Bible and the movement of the Holy Spirit. I have observed this in many fellowships, and I am sorry to say, more so in Catholicism.

Do you have a faith, Sunny?

Red Sky at Morning said:

Hi Sunny,

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Thank you!
Yes, I do