"The way home or catch the fire" compared to bible/ other religions (part 6)

[JoChris]

Back to 8:12:
8:12 Jesus obviously could not start His work, until his body was in its late-thirties, because, as a teenager, no-one would take him seriously, and he would be far too inexperienced, in worldly-matters, to be able to cope with abuse and ridicule, without losing his temper.

I decided to check if a Gnostic Gospel supported that theory, and yes in the GNOSTIC Infancy Gospel of Thomas, the child Jesus does have a temper and he sometimes sins badly.

e.g.
4. And some days after, when Jesus was going through the midst of the city, a boy threw a stone at Him, and struck Him on the shoulder. And Jesus said to him: Thou shalt not go on thy way. And directly falling down, he also died. And they that happened to be there were struck with astonishment, saying: Whence is this child, that every word he says is certainly accomplished? And they also went and reproached Joseph, saying: It is impossible for thee to live with us in this city: but if thou wishest to do so, teach thy child to bless, and not to curse: for he is killing our children, and everything that he says is certainly accomplished.

Infancy Gospel of Thomas - got questions

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas offers an abundance of fanciful stories about this period of Jesus’ life. The Infancy Gospel of Thomas includes the following miracles that Jesus supposedly performed:

• Bringing dried fish to life (in some later versions)
• Bringing life to clay sparrows that Jesus had crafted on the Sabbath
• Cursing a boy who dies
• Cursing a boy who dies and his parents, who are blinded
• Raising a friend who was killed by falling from a roof (knowing the character of the Jesus presented in this “Gospel,” the parents accuse Jesus of throwing him off the roof)
• Healing a man who cut off part of his foot while chopping wood
• Carrying water in a cloak after accidentally breaking the water jar
• Sowing one grain and receiving one hundred measures in harvest
• Stretching a piece of wood to help Joseph, the carpenter, make a bed for a rich client
• Healing James from snake bite
• Resurrecting a child who died of illness
• Resurrecting a man who died in an accident

---
This cannot be a coincidence. Again AJH has used clear Gnostic belief systems in his book, this time without giving any indication where he got his idea from.

At the very best that is human error/ oversight. Remember this is supposed to be the JAHtruth religion's book.

My logical mind wants to believe this is only soft plagarism from a man who wants to impress potential believers - paraphrased wording without giving references.

 

[The Sojourner]

For anyone reading, who may be getting confused by the commentary:

The shepherds and the wise men, who visited Jesus, were TWO different groups of people and they refer to TWO different events at two different times. The shepherds, who were tending their flocks in the fields, visited them when Jesus was a new born baby, after an angel appeared to them.

Luke
2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no ROOM for them in the inn.
2:8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

That was when Jesus was a new born baby, and Mary had wrapped the newly born Jesus in swaddling clothes and had laid him in a manger, because there was no room for them at the Inn.

The wise men (that spoke to Herod) were different people from the shepherds, and visited them about two years later, when Jesus had already grown into a CHILD (as it says) of around 2 years old.

Matthew
2:1 Now when Jesus had been born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men (druids) to the East to Jerusalem,
2:2 Saying, Where is he that has been BORN King of the Jews? for we saw his "Star" in the East, and are come to worship him.
2:3 When Herod the king had heard [these things], he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and lawyers of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
2:6 And thou Bethlehem, [in] the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a Governor (of this prison planet), that shall rule My people Israel.
2:7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently [exactly] what time the "Star" had appeared.
2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found [him], bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
2:9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the "Star", which they had seen in the East, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
2:10 When they saw the "Star", they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
2:11 And when they were come into the HOUSE, they saw the young CHILD with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the "I AM" appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child (not baby) to destroy him.
2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called My son.
2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked by the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from TWO YEARS old and under, according to the time which he had diligently [and accurately] enquired of the wise men.
2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the Prophet, saying,
2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping [for] her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

It says that on this second occasion, they were visited in the HOUSE, not out looking for room at the inn like previously, when Jesus had just been born.

Also, Jesus was NOT all knowing, according to Jesus himself.

(Jesus speaking):
Mark 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, only the Father.

It's unfortunately not uncommon at all, to find that Christians are ignorant about many of the details such as these, that are found in the Gospels and also elsewhere.

So anyone reading the commentary, should be aware of the level (or lack) of general knowledge of the Bible, being shown through mistakes such as these.

-------

Although it is not personally known if the Infancy Gospel according to Thomas (which is a distinct/different writing from the Gospel of Thomas) is accurate, it interestingly does appear to contain at least some accurate information, which is corroborated elsewhere. Because the part about Jesus making a bird out of clay and then by God's leave bringing it to life by breathing into it, also appears in the Holy Koran:

Sura
3:47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a plan, He only saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
3:48. And God will teach him The Book (Old Covenant) and Wisdom, The Law (The Torah) and The Gospel,
3:49. And (appoint him) an Apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: and I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I enliven the dead, by God's leave and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
3:50. (I have come to you), to affirm The Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.
3:51. It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord then worship Him. This is The Way that is Straight'."

So that information is interesting indeed.

It's been chosen not to comment much on these threads, as several previous attempts have confirmed that the people doing the commentary have made it quite clear, that they do not want to allow any facts get in the way of them already having made up their minds.

So, to anyone who may be reading these threads, I would recommend you check for the facts yourself, and to not just swallow the commentary whole as if it was gospel. Facts and logic, often gets glossed over here quite a bit, so everyone needs to do their own due dilligence and homework.

This is symptomatic of getting one's information from churches, as they only repeat certain chosen passages while mostly ignoring the rest of the Scriptures. That unfortunately is not uncommon at all, but it is also not that hard to see this or why the churches do this, once you start to dig deeper and study what the Scriptures really say.

 

[The Sojourner]

Of further interest for those who like these kinds of studies:

The Book of Kells

jahtruth.net

"In the Irish version of the Gospel of Matthew we are told that Druids came to the East to worship the King of kings. Britain was ruled by the Levitical Druid religion and the word Druid means Truth, their motto being "The Truth Against the World". Glastonbury was a Druid centre of learning and there was an observatory on the summit of Tor Hill for the study of astronomy. They were waiting for their Messiah Yesu/Hesus – Jesus (the Truth made flesh) - to come. In other words the real true Druids were the Levitical priesthood of the ten "lost" tribes of Israel, in exile.

In the year 7 B.C. there was a conjunction of Jupiter (the king of the planets) and Saturn (thought to be the protector of Israel) in the Constellation of Pisces (the Sign of the Messiah), as computed in 1603 by the Astronomer Royal in Prague - Johannes Kepler, that was first visible at daybreak on the 12th of April 7 B.C. (Passover in 7 B.C. was on Monday April 13th which commenced at sundown on the 12th). The earth-shattering significance of this conjunction – Messiah; King; Protector of Israel; Passover - would have been unmistakable to the Levitical Druid astronomers in the British Isles, where the monarch was also the Archdruid.


King of kings’ Bible - Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus had been born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men (druids) to the East to Jerusalem,
2:2 Saying, Where is he that has been BORN King of the Jews? for we saw his "Star" in the East, and are come to worship him.
2:3 When Herod the king had heard [these things], he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and lawyers of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
2:6 And thou Bethlehem, [in] the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a Governor (of this prison planet), that shall rule My people Israel."

Glastonbury - Summerland

"Many truths have been purposely hidden from the world by so-called Christian religious leaders wanting to enlarge their power and coffers using their false "protection-racket" and many lies and deceptions have been perpetrated upon the world, especially the British and English speaking peoples in order to achieve their evil aims of self-aggrandizement, enrichment and domination."

 

[TokiEl]

Maybe by the time the wise men had arrived, accomodation shortages caused by the census had improved by then so they were out of the stable and back in the house?

Good question.

Bethlehem was the birthplace of king David and since Joseph was a direct descendant of king David he came to Bethlehem for the census. Perhaps Bethlehem would be crowded by royal descendants because of this... but it would probably be crowded during one of the three obligatory Temple festivals (Pesach Shavuot Sukkot).

The Nativity indicates that Joseph and Mary were in Bethlehem for a time... before Jesus was born. And angels gave the shepherds and us a sign as to the time of His birth... namely manger.

Strong's Concordance 5336. phatné

phatné: a manger
Original Word: φάτνη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: phatné
Phonetic Spelling: (fat'-nay)
Definition: a manger
Usage: a manger, feeding-trough, stall.

Sukkot Tabernacles Booths Stall

​

 

[JoChris]

For anyone reading, who may be getting confused by the commentary:

The shepherds and the wise men, who visited Jesus, were TWO different groups of people and they refer to TWO different events at two different times. The shepherds, who were tending their flocks in the fields, visited them when Jesus was a new born baby, after an angel appeared to them.

Thank you for giving a response. I am interesting in feedback.
The sentences of TWHOFTF are being addressed one at a time, therefore what AJH said the three wise men about was discussed without mentioning the shepherds.
I assume people who read the bible passage links I always give have enough concentration and memory to put the pieces together in their minds.
Frankly if a person isn't reading the bible passages to see how TWHOFTF contradicts the properly translated bible all the time they are likely to get confused. I can't make readers do that though.

So anyone reading the commentary, should be aware of the level (or lack) of general knowledge of the Bible, being shown through mistakes such as these.

It never occurred to me I would have to clarify the issue you mentioned here.
IMO people who read the ACTUAL separate bible passages will find it extremely obvious to readers that the three wise men from the EAST and the local shepherds were not the same people.

Although it is not personally known if the Infancy Gospel according to Thomas (which is a distinct/different writing from the Gospel of Thomas) is accurate, it interestingly does appear to contain at least some accurate information, which is corroborated elsewhere.

A book that alleges that Jesus sinned is a book that should be rejected, no matter how much it agrees with other biblical passages.

This is symptomatic of getting one's information from churches, as they only repeat certain chosen passages while mostly ignoring the rest of the Scriptures. That unfortunately is not uncommon at all, but it is also not that hard to see this or why the churches do this, once you start to dig deeper and study what the Scriptures really say.

It really sounds like you mustn't have been to bible-believing churches or read a properly translated bible for yourself.
You are paraphrasing TWHOFTF's/ JAHtruth website's propaganda there.

 

[JoChris]

Of further interest for those who like these kinds of studies:

The Book of Kells

jahtruth.net

"In the Irish version of the Gospel of Matthew we are told that Druids came to the East to worship the King of kings. Britain was ruled by the Levitical Druid religion and the word Druid means Truth, their motto being "The Truth Against the World". Glastonbury was a Druid centre of learning and there was an observatory on the summit of Tor Hill for the study of astronomy. They were waiting for their Messiah Yesu/Hesus – Jesus (the Truth made flesh) - to come. In other words the real true Druids were the Levitical priesthood of the ten "lost" tribes of Israel, in exile.

In the year 7 B.C. there was a conjunction of Jupiter (the king of the planets) and Saturn (thought to be the protector of Israel) in the Constellation of Pisces (the Sign of the Messiah), as computed in 1603 by the Astronomer Royal in Prague - Johannes Kepler, that was first visible at daybreak on the 12th of April 7 B.C. (Passover in 7 B.C. was on Monday April 13th which commenced at sundown on the 12th). The earth-shattering significance of this conjunction – Messiah; King; Protector of Israel; Passover - would have been unmistakable to the Levitical Druid astronomers in the British Isles, where the monarch was also the Archdruid.


King of kings’ Bible - Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus had been born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men (druids) to the East to Jerusalem,
2:2 Saying, Where is he that has been BORN King of the Jews? for we saw his "Star" in the East, and are come to worship him.
2:3 When Herod the king had heard [these things], he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
2:4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and lawyers of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
2:6 And thou Bethlehem, [in] the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a Governor (of this prison planet), that shall rule My people Israel."

Glastonbury - Summerland

"Many truths have been purposely hidden from the world by so-called Christian religious leaders wanting to enlarge their power and coffers using their false "protection-racket" and many lies and deceptions have been perpetrated upon the world, especially the British and English speaking peoples in order to achieve their evil aims of self-aggrandizement, enrichment and domination."

DRUIDS is not in the real bible.

For the rest of what you say, that would be an interesting topic for another thread - it appears the JAHtruth website has an awful lot of Celtic/ Irish mythology added everywhere that I have never seen in any other place.

I am curious - since AJH was born in Sheffield UK, how come he covers Irish traditions etc a lot?

It would be good if more Christian apologetics books/ websites were not from the USA. Understandably they tend to cover all the extra-biblical/ non-Christian religions that are present in the USA.

 

[JoChris]

8:14 The priests,
The priests were the Jewish Sadducees and the Pharisees.
When the average person in the 21st century reads the word "priest" we automatically assume the priest is from the Roman Catholic church.

---
who CLAIM to represent God, were trying to murder God’s Son, “LEGALLY”, when God says you must not murder.
Correct! Jesus said the following to the apostles at the Last Supper:

John 16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

See the word: synagogues. Not churches.

---
I say “LEGALLY”, referring to their customs and traditions (the Talmud), that they had made up themselves, to allow themselves to break God’s Laws. They made up their own laws, thereby making God’s Laws obsolete (ineffective - Mark 7:9, 13), and gave THEMSELVES the right (?) to murder Jesus (Hosea 4:6)(John 16:1-4).
Correct, the Jewish leaders were putting human traditions above God's Laws.

Please look at the following chapters for the verses quoted:
Mark chapter 7
Hosea chapter 4
John chapter 16

This is how cult leaders hook well-meaning believers, sometimes they actually get the verses/ passages correct. It is a good way of gaining trust.

 

[JoChris]

The following "verses" appear very self-explanatory on the first reading.
On other forum threads @A Freeman defends AJH's extreme legalism so I will not address the legalism versus the true Gospel doctrines here. All I will say is that according to the bible keeping God's Laws is not the Gospel.

8:15 Today the situation is many times WORSE, because of men having made up so many thousands, of their own laws, to enable themselves (the rich) to break God’s Laws, that mankind has forgotten that God’s Laws (the Royal Perfect Laws of Liberty) even EXIST. God’s Laws; Statutes and Judgements; etc., are the ONLY ones that exist, and ALL of today’s, many THOUSANDS of UNLAWFUL human laws/legislation and judgements, do not exist, as far as God is concerned; except in your minds (Matt. 5:18). Do NOT be fooled — God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sows, THAT shall he also reap (Galatians 6:7).

Now in context:
From the Sermon on the Mount, given by Jesus to the Jews
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Galatians chapter 6
6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

8:16 Anyone making up, administering or enforcing UNLAWFUL human laws/legislation and judgements, will be SEVERELY punished by God. The other people; who permit the making up of UNLAWFUL human legislation and judgements; punish themselves, because of the effect, that these UNLAWFUL and UNJUST laws have, on society. Men’s UNLAWFUL and UNJUST laws/legislation also punish the innocent, more than the guilty.

It will be interesting to see if TWHOFTF actually clearly lays out what AJH says are the Laws believers must keep.

How much will be from the Old Testament, how much from the New Testament, how much from the Quran, how much from human legislation, how much from Anthony John Hill himself....

 

[JoChris]

Here "The way home or face the fire" sneaks in heresy at the end of the sentence.

8:17 Jesus gave the parable (illustrative story), of the vineyard (world), and the owner of the vineyard (God), and the husbandmen or workers (priests), and the servants of the owner (the Prophets), and the son of the owner (Prince Michael/Christ - Matt. 21:31-46 & Mark 12:1-13 & Luke 20:9-21).

The following passages are different versions of the same story, so obviously it is a very important story.

Matthew 21:31-46
Mark 12:1-13
Luke 20:9-21

The son is Christ - YES.

Bible study tools - what does Michael mean?
..... The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Revelation 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel (for a full discussion see Hengstenberg, Offenbarung, I, 611-22, and an interesting survey in English by Dr. Douglas in Fairbairn's BD).

Pre-existence of Christ - Wikipeda
The pre-existence of Christ asserts the existence of Christ prior to his incarnation as Jesus. One of the relevant Bible passages is John 1:1–18 where, in the Trinitarian interpretation, Christ is identified with a pre-existent divine hypostasis (substantive reality) called the Logos (Koine Greek for "word").


For detailed reading about the Christian perspective: Preincarnate Christ -bible.org

----
8:18 Through the parable of the vineyard, Jesus was foretelling, that the priests, who had beaten and murdered God’s Prophets (messengers), would murder His Son, and that God will destroy the priests and non-believers in “The Fire” on the Last-Day, if they do not repent. The Jewish people have never repented, because they refuse to accept, that Jesus was God’s Son, incarnated, and to follow His teachings and example.

The Jewish leaders were not priests as we know them today.

 

[The Sojourner]

Also, Jesus was NOT all knowing, according to Jesus himself:

(Jesus speaking):
Mark 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, only the Father.

Christians say Jesus is God, yet Jesus said that he is not all knowing - not knowing of that day and that hour.

According to Christianity, God is All-Knowing.
According to Christianity, Jesus is God.
According to the Bible, Jesus said that he is not all-knowing.

For Christian doctrine, this presents a conundrum, with several possible options:

1) Either it means that Christian doctrine is wrong; i.e. Jesus is not God, because Jesus said he is not all-knowing (not knowing of that day and that hour).

2) Or, if you decide to stick with the doctrine of Christianity that says Jesus is God, then Jesus is also not God, because God is All-Knowing, yet Jesus said he is not all-knowing.

3) Or, if Christian doctrine is believed to be correct, then Jesus was not correct, when he said that he is not all-knowing i.e not knowing of that day and that hour (according to the Bible in Mark 13:32), because Christianity (not the Bible) says Jesus must be God, because otherwise Christians are not saved, because only God can keep His Laws.

4) Christian doctrine is wrong; Jesus is not God; Jesus was not incorrect and was speaking the truth; and the Bible (but not Christianity) is correct/true.

I've had discussions with many Christians, who all argued every which way, against this and other statements by Jesus. One guy was finally honest, and said to me, that if Jesus is not God, then there goes our salvation, so he must be God, despite what it says. i.e. we can't take the Bible literally, there must be another explanation, because our salvation (according to Christian doctrine) depends 100% on Jesus being God.

So, at that point, you are at a place where you have to choose between two beliefs - believe mainstream Christian doctrine (trinitarian interpretation) is still correct, or believe that the Bible (which disagrees with Christian trinitarian interpretaton) is correct/true.

The fact is, if Jesus is God, then Jesus has to be All-Knowing (Omniscience; God Quality); yet in the Bible, it says otherwise (no man, neither the angels, nor Jesus knowing of that day and that hour, because only the Father/God knows it).

Catholics offer explanations though, and say Jesus (even though Jesus is God) didn't know it (was not omniscient) in his role. They seem convinced that it is a good enough explanation. They say it was because of his role, that he wasn't omniscient (yet, the Bible clearly teaches that God is always Omniscient). But if that was true, then in his role... Jesus was not God, yet they still say, Jesus is God.

But, it doesn't work, because it is trying to change what the Bible says (which Catholics are generally okay with, as long as the pope approves of the changes). So, again, it's a question of Bible belief, vs. Religion.

 

[JoChris]

8:19 The New Testament is ABSOLUTELY FULL, of messages against priests; their organizedreligions; lawyers and politicians.

AJH is inserting modern vocabulary that were not used in the bible, the words have changed meaning and is omitting words that make it easier to understand.

I did a quick search on biblegateway.com - the word Politician is not in KJV, ESV, NIV bible. If anyone finds a version that does use the word I am interested.

Who thinks of 1st century Jewish leader when they read the word lawyer? [I certainly didn't.]
Who thinks of a Jewish Sadduccee/ Pharisee when they have read the word priest? [I have modified several entries already to clarify my position!]

8:20 It was the PRIESTS and their RELIGION, that had Jesus nailed on the cross; leaving a PERMANENT testimony to the world, of how priests and organized-religions belong to Satan

Honestly I am surprised TWHOFTF said Jesus was crucified on a cross. I was expecting torture stake like the Jehovah's Witnesses.

AJH should have said Judaism/ the Jewish religion.
He made a massive overstatement by claiming ALL organised religions belong to Satan.

and had murdered the human-animal, that was worn by Christ, God’s Son.

There is nothing in the BIBLE to suggest Jesus was a human animal, wearing a body. That is AJH's doctrine only.

 

[The Sojourner]

It is saying that Christ (the Spirit Being, God's Son) wore the physical human animal body (that was called Jesus/Joshua). That is referred to as the Incarnation.

Christ (which is a Title) means: "The Messiah" or "The Anointed One".
Jesus/Joshua means: "The Lord is Salvation".

Incarnation - Spirit/Soul entity, put into a carnal nature (flesh) entity, animating it.

Christ said that it is the Spirit (Soul) that quickeneth (the soul is what animates), the flesh (the human animal body itself) profiteth nothing.

It's the Soul that matters; it is the real person.
The body (that the soul/person is wearing) is only temporary, has a short lifespan and soon expires (Peter said it's "like grass", quoting Isaiah).

It's the body (flesh/human) that is temporary like grass; not the soul/spirit (the real person).

Human+Being
(flesh/animal - "like grass" physical entity) + (spirit/soul - the real person; non-physical/light entity)

Two entities - one is human (animal) and one is spirit (soul); human+being

 

[JoChris]

Also, Jesus was NOT all knowing, according to Jesus himself:

(Jesus speaking):
Mark 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, only the Father.

Christians say Jesus is God, yet Jesus said that he is not all knowing - not knowing of that day and that hour.

According to Christianity, God is All-Knowing.
According to Christianity, Jesus is God.
According to the Bible, Jesus said that he is not all-knowing.

For Christian doctrine, this presents a conundrum, with several possible options:

1) Either it means that Christian doctrine is wrong; i.e. Jesus is not God, because Jesus said he is not all-knowing (not knowing of that day and that hour).

2) Or, if you decide to stick with the doctrine of Christianity that says Jesus is God, then Jesus is also not God, because God is All-Knowing, yet Jesus said he is not all-knowing.

3) Or, if Christian doctrine is believed to be correct, then Jesus was not correct, when he said that he is not all-knowing i.e not knowing of that day and that hour (according to the Bible in Mark 13:32), because Christianity (not the Bible) says Jesus must be God, because otherwise Christians are not saved, because only God can keep His Laws.

4) Christian doctrine is wrong; Jesus is not God; Jesus was not incorrect and was speaking the truth; and the Bible (but not Christianity) is correct/true.

I've had discussions with many Christians, who all argued every which way, against this and other statements by Jesus. One guy was finally honest, and said to me, that if Jesus is not God, then there goes our salvation, so he must be God, despite what it says. i.e. we can't take the Bible literally, there must be another explanation, because our salvation (according to Christian doctrine) depends 100% on Jesus being God.

So, at that point, you are at a place where you have to choose between two beliefs - believe mainstream Christian doctrine (trinitarian interpretation) is still correct, or believe that the Bible (which disagrees with Christian trinitarian interpretaton) is correct/true.

The fact is, if Jesus is God, then Jesus has to be All-Knowing (Omniscience; God Quality); yet in the Bible, it says otherwise (no man, neither the angels, nor Jesus knowing of that day and that hour, because only the Father/God knows it).

Catholics offer explanations though, and say Jesus (even though Jesus is God) didn't know it (was not omniscient) in his role. They seem convinced that it is a good enough explanation. They say it was because of his role, that he wasn't omniscient (yet, the Bible clearly teaches that God is always Omniscient). But if that was true, then in his role... Jesus was not God, yet they still say, Jesus is God.

But, it doesn't work, because it is trying to change what the Bible says (which Catholics are generally okay with, as long as the pope approves of the changes). So, again, it's a question of Bible belief, vs. Religion.

That question sounds very similar to what Muslims often use. This is the type of doctrine Christians have to decide whether they are going to trust their/ other people's understanding or trust what the bible itself says.

It is through people trying to make sense of the unexplainable to the human mind that heresies and false religions formed.
We are not god. We do not have an infinite mind.

According to the bible Jesus is fully God, fully man. Sometimes Jesus demonstrated both sides of his nature, sometimes one, sometimes the other.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

What does it mean that no one knows the hour - Got questions

The disciples wanted to know when the end would come (see Mark 13:3–4). But Jesus told them that even He did not know (verse 33). In saying this, Jesus was actively humbling Himself and taking the form of a servant (see Philippians 2:7–8). Since no other mortal knows the time of Jesus’ return, Jesus voluntarily restricted His knowledge on that point. It was part of Jesus’ submission to the Father (see John 5:30; 6:38; 8:28–29) and His mission to live a human life. Jesus, in His humanity, didn’t know the day or hour of His return, nor did the angels in heaven, only God the Father. It is highly probable that Jesus, now in His glorified state, knows the day and hour of His return. But at that incarnate moment, speaking with His disciples, the information was not at Christ’s disposal. Later, just before His ascension, Jesus would remind them, “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority” (Acts 1:7). Jesus accepted His human limitations, and so must we. The thing that matters is being ready every day for His return.

---
Obviously God does not want us to know when Jesus returns.
If Jesus had known what time He was going to return but had lied to the apostles about it, He would have sinned.

 

[The Sojourner]

I'm well aware of Christian speculation surrounding that verse.
As explained, Christians will do this to protect "the precious" i.e., Christian doctrine (like Smeagol behaves over the ring, in LOTR).
The article above says it's highly probable (i.e. not a fact, and not known).
That is therefore extra Biblical Christian speculation, not what the Bible says.
The Bible has Jesus saying that he does not know it, and that only his Father (God) knows.
Therefore Jesus made another distinction between himself and God, and giving the Glory to God, as he always did.
Like I mentioned in the preceding post, because Christians believe that their salvation depends 100% on Jesus being God, they therefore are not willing to consider it.
Why do Christians not believe that God is Merciful, and willing to forgive those who will repent?
In the Koran, it asks the same question.

 

[The Sojourner]

This is what Jesus said, about forgiveness:

Matthew
6:12 And forgive us our debts and trespasses (if we truly repent), as we forgive our debtors and those who trespass against us (if they truly repent).
6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For Thine is The Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Why does it say (if we/they truly repent) in brackets? Because:

Luke
17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and IF HE REPENT, forgive him.
17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

 

[The Sojourner]

That question sounds very similar to what Muslims often use. This is the type of doctrine Christians have to decide whether they are going to trust their/ other people's understanding or trust what the bible itself says.

It is through people trying to make sense of the unexplainable to the human mind that heresies and false religions formed.
We are not god. We do not have an infinite mind.

According to the bible Jesus is fully God, fully man. Sometimes Jesus demonstrated both sides of his nature, sometimes one, sometimes the other.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

What does it mean that no one knows the hour - Got questions

The disciples wanted to know when the end would come (see Mark 13:3–4). But Jesus told them that even He did not know (verse 33). In saying this, Jesus was actively humbling Himself and taking the form of a servant (see Philippians 2:7–8). Since no other mortal knows the time of Jesus’ return, Jesus voluntarily restricted His knowledge on that point. It was part of Jesus’ submission to the Father (see John 5:30; 6:38; 8:28–29) and His mission to live a human life. Jesus, in His humanity, didn’t know the day or hour of His return, nor did the angels in heaven, only God the Father. It is highly probable that Jesus, now in His glorified state, knows the day and hour of His return. But at that incarnate moment, speaking with His disciples, the information was not at Christ’s disposal. Later, just before His ascension, Jesus would remind them, “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority” (Acts 1:7). Jesus accepted His human limitations, and so must we. The thing that matters is being ready every day for His return.

---
Obviously God does not want us to know when Jesus returns.
If Jesus had known what time He was going to return but had lied to the apostles about it, He would have sinned.

Please look at this.

Here is a translation of the famous passage in Philippians, that actually makes sense.

Remember, when trying to understand this passage, you have to let the same mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.

If Jesus was fully God, then can you (as a human being, not as God) possibly have the same mind as was in him?

In other words, if you read it as Jesus being God, then you (not being God) can't possibly do what the passage begins with, can you?

Philippians
2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
2:6 Who, being in the likeness of God, thought it not correct to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made into the likeness of men:
2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
2:10 That at the name of the Saviour every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in Earth, and [things] under the earth;
2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Christ Jesus [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
2:13 For it is God Which worketh in you both to will and to do of [His] good pleasure.
2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the (adopted) sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
2:16 Holding forth The Word of Life; that I may rejoice in The Day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

In other words, it says you have to be just like Jesus was (have the same mind, i.e. think the same way as him).

Catholics say that we can't possibly be the same way as Jesus was, because he was made of "God stuff", and we are made of "human stuff", so we are not the same.

But according to Epaphroditus, Paul and Timothy said "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus".

If Jesus was God, then that would not make sense or be possible for a human being that is made of "human stuff" if Jesus was made of "God stuff" because then Jesus is not of the same species as you are. You then can't do this passage, because you can't think of yourself as being in the likeness of God, yet "think it not robbery to be equal with God" of yourself (or however it has been previously translated).

It says Jesus was in the likeness (or form/image) of God, not that "he was God".

It says we are all made in the image (or form) of God, too:

Genesis
1:26 And God said, Let us make man in Our image, and teach him to be like Us: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in His [Own] image, in the Image of God created He him; male and female created He them.

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you (your spirit-Beings) [are] children of the Most High.

John
10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are gods?
10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the Word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken;
10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in Him.
10:39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
10:40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.

The Jews didn't understand. And Christianity doesn't seem to understand this either.

Yet the bible says it plainly:

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you (your spirit-Beings) [are] children of the Most High.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are gods?

So, according to the Bible it is possible to have the same mind in us, as was in Jesus (and therefore to obey God and keep His Commandments).

(Jesus said so:

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.)

John
5:36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Which works did Jesus do?

John
10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

What did Jesus say to do to have Eternal Life?

Matthew
19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have Eternal Life?
19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou ME good? [there is] none good but One, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into Life, keep the Commandments.

That's what Jesus said. "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the Commandments."

i.e. If we want to live, keep the Commandments.

That therefore, according to Jesus, is the Gospel in a nutshell - that we keep the Commandments.
That is the Good News: that if we repent, and keep the Commandments, then God is ready, to forgive us and grant us Eternal Life.

Repent and keep the Commandments = Forgiveness and Eternal Life.
Don't repent and don't keep the Commandments = Die in our sins.

 

[JoChris]

@The Sojourner, the non-Christian JAHtruth religion completely contradicts the Gospel's good news.

That religion dismisses the bible whenever it contradicts Anthony John Hill's belief systems.
AJH should NOT quote the bible when it suits him only.

Paul is the apostle who writes a great deal about God's grace towards us, sending Jesus to die for our sins because we could NOT ever follow the commandments like AJH pretends we are able to do.

The Gospels and Letters from the other apostles also support what the apostle Paul said.

---
"The way home or face the fire" contradicts the Gospel and brings those who follow AJH into spiritual bondage.

You and any other AJH followers need to read the Gospel of John from the REAL bible.
John chapter 1

 

[JoChris]

Reminder : Green =when TWHOFTF sounds like a written transcript of a direct conversation, not religious teachings.

The following sections are mostly AJH's personal beliefs/ opinions only .

8:21 Just HOW obvious does it have to be, before you can see the TRUTH? After all Jesus said, and went through on the cross, to show that organized-religion is wrong; there are more religions today, than ever before.
And false religions are at best counterfeits of a true religion.

8:22 You can be sure that on Prince Michael/Christ’s second-coming...
Bible chapter and verse where the New Testament says that Jesus is Prince Michael please.


when he brings the SAME message again (the message and truth will NEVER change), all the priests in the world (Satan’s unwitting employees), and especially the pope, will be the first to call him insane and a blasphemer.

That sounds NOTHING like the bible's teachings on Jesus' Second Coming.

Please look for extended bible studies on the topic, here is an introduction only:

Second coming of Jesus Christ - bible info

The pope will probably try to excommunicate him, and tell him that he (Prince Michael) will never go to heaven, for saying that God is his Father. What a joke! It is the pope who will NEVER go to heaven. Heaven is Christ’s home, He is the Prince of heaven. The pope, however, is a servant of Satan and will burn, with him.
AJH's Prince Michael is repeatedly being mentioned now.
"Pope" is not a word in the KJV bible.

8:23 The priests all have their very lucrative businesses to protect, and their position of respect, and power over the people, to protect too.

TWHOFTF is sounding like a broken record where it comes to accusation religious leaders for "only being in it for the money".

 

[JoChris]

8:24 On the second-coming, Christ will not be called Jesus, because he will have a new human-name (Rev. 3:12),
Passage to the church in Philadelphia Revelation 3:7-13


The misquoted phrase "a new human name" is a core doctrine of JAHtruth.
There AJH pretends that his name is the new one for Jesus.




12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Does the whole verse read anything like a Second Coming or what TWHOFTF says?

and he will, first of all, try to peacefully destroy ALL organized-religions.

That sounds more like a standard interpretation of the AntiChrist than Jesus Himself!!!!

An introductory article : What does the bible say about the AntiChrist

The priests and religious people will say that he is the false prophet, but it is organized-religion, and its false interpretations and teachings, that is the false prophet, as it ALWAYS has been.
As all people who believe the bible should....


Hopefully he will succeed, whilst in human-form, ....
If AJH is allegedly Prince Michael/ CHrist, shouldn't he have known that for sure when he wrote TWHOFTF?

because THIS TIME it will NOT just be a gesture, but a LAST chance, and the Last-Day will be right behind him (Sura 43:61), and you will already have had almost 2000 years, to get it RIGHT and go home.
TWHOFTF was quote mining again.
This is all the verse says!

Quran 43:61 And his ˹second˺ coming is truly a sign for the Hour. So have no doubt about it, and follow me. This is the Straight Path.

 

[JoChris]

The following section is absolutely terrible, especially 8:26.

People, how can you possibly believe anything he says about the bible?!!! He can't even get who is saying what right!!!!

8:25 You are still here. Why? If I were you; I would be very worried and be doing my UTMOST, to be like Jesus. Perhaps you all WANT to die?

People who are familiar with the bible: does Jesus sound at all like this man?
There is an implied threat/ scare tactic tone. There is a snide, sarcastic and negative tone.

8:26 Christ explained everything; about where he (and you) came from; and what you each have to do, to go home.
Note no bible references given for what I highlighted.

He explained that he was the soul, inside the “son of Mary”,
That is an absolute lie.

and that he was zillions of years old,
NO Jesus didn't. "Zillions" is not in the bible. It is such a childish word that AJH uses.

when the body, that he was using, was less than 50 years old (John 1:15 & 8:57-58 / King of kings’ Bible, John 8:48-49....
TWHOFTF never gives the verses/ verses that put it in context!!!
John chapter 1

John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

The Pharisees made the observation, not Jesus.

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The Jews were going to stone Jesus for BLASPHEMY, because He was indirectly saying He was God. See that AJH did not address that on purpose.

I AM is the phrase God called Himself to Moses in Exodus chapter 3

13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

--
... & 17:24).
John chapter 17 [Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane)

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Note again: Jesus did not use words like zillion.

The difference in how AJH says things should be a very obvious sign that AJH and Jesus cannot be possibly the same person. People's personality etc inevitably comes out the more they speak/ write.

He also explained that Mary was NOT his mother, and that her body, only made the body, that he was using
This is a downright lie!!! Mary did not actually say much in the bible at all!

(John 6:42 & Matt. 12:47-50;
The JEWS said:
John 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

A JEW
Matthew 12: 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matthew 22:45 & Mark 3:31-35 & Luke 8:19-21),
JESUS said
Matthew 22:41-46
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

A JEW [ repeat of story in Matthew chapter 12]

Luke 8:19 Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.
20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.
21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

but that she did NOT make him.

This is a teaching of AJH only i.e. fiction.