Catholicism 101

SquaredCircle

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224
I agree.

Actually ironically the religious/spirtual (as opposed to social...er, um..) things that Protestants hate about Orthodoxy and Catholicism are actually the best things about it.
Whereas the very things that define and embody Protestantism is the very things that are bad about Orthodoxy and Catholicism, except they do it even worse and on a more autonomous chaotic scale. (aka, Protestantism took out everything good and then amplified everything bad, then tried to call itself "OG KVLT!")
You were right ! This is a fundy landmine zone ! I dont let them get to me or argue ! They defeat themselves if you let them type long enough ! They have zero clue that rigid Im right and my book and god says so is the most evil thing in the universe ! Your a cool friend and enjoy you even though we dont agree on all things ! Its obvious you found Love and Light by yourself and show gratitude to the God of your heart ! That is some Rosicrucian gnosis right there !
Do you live in a western country ? Im in the States
 
Joined
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Messages
2,622
I suspect that “Theosis” within Eastern Orthodoxy was a doctrine you found attractive, @SquaredCircle ?

Many passages in the New Testament speak to the Orthodox understanding of deification/theosis. First is 2 Peter 1:3–4, which states that God’s “divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness” through the knowledge of God, who called us by His own glory and goodness. Through these things, He has given us His great promises so that we “may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”

This verse clearly and unequivocally states that we can become partakers of the divine nature. How so? Through God’s divine power at work in us, we gain life and godliness and are given His promises so that we can escape from corruption. There is God’s action in and upon us, and there is response and corresponding effort on our part.

This brings to mind Philippians 2:12–13, where St. Paul tells us to “work out [our] salvation with fear and trembling,” for it is God who is at work in us “both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” Thus we get a clear picture here of the process by which we are renewed and unified so completely with God that we become by grace what God is by nature. God works in us, and we cooperate with His grace.

Another passage of note is John 10:34–36. In a dispute with the Pharisees, Jesus refers to the verse quoted above, Psalm 82:6, where human beings are referred to as “gods.” The Jewish leaders accuse Jesus of blasphemy and are ready to stone Him for equating Himself with the Father (vv. 22–33). Jesus replies, “ Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),” then why do they label as blasphemy Jesus calling Himself God’s Son? Jesus is truly God’s Son, and we are gods because we share in His sonship.

Consider Acts 17:28–29, where St. Paul approvingly quotes the Greek poets, who state that we are God’s “offspring.” Paul concludes that since we are “the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature” is like some lifeless object.

Throughout Paul’s epistles, we find many descriptive passages referring to the same concepts that we have been considering: union with God, sharing in the divine nature through grace, and total participation in Jesus Christ—the biblical concept of theosis/deification. In Ephesians 1, Paul states that we have been given “every spiritual blessing” (v. 3) so that we should be “holy and without blame” (v. 4); we are His “sons” (v. 5). He made “the riches of His grace . . . to abound toward us” (vv. 6–7). We are given wisdom and insight into the “mystery of His will” (v. 9), which is to “gather together in one all things in Christ” (v. 10).

Furthermore, we are “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise” (v. 13), the “guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession” (v. 14). We are recipients of “wisdom and revelation” (v. 17), having “the eyes of [our] understanding . . . enlightened” (v. 18); knowing the “exceeding greatness of His power toward us” (v. 19). We are the “body” of Him who is the head and “the fullness of Him who fills all in all” (v. 23).

These are descriptions of sonship, of human beings as children of God with full pedigree and inheritance rights. We are brought into God’s intimate inner circle to know the mystery of His will, being given wisdom and enlightenment. We have grace lavished upon us and are His body, His fullness. The whole purpose of God’s mystery is that all things will be united in Christ and that He will be all in all. Does this not describe partaking of the divine nature, becoming by grace what God is by nature?

Certainly there is much more being described here than “growing in faith and good works,” progressing in sanctification or mortifying sin. Those are indeed excellent enterprises, but not ends in themselves. They are means employed toward a greater end. St. Paul is outlining this compelling, inspiring description of our identity in Christ, indeed showing us what total participation in Christ actually is. Ephesians 1 is a description of theosis.

In other verses in Ephesians, St. Paul continues: we are to “be filled with all the fullness of God” (3:19) and to attain to “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” (4:13). We are to “grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ” (4:15). Again, this describes the process of being deified by grace, acquiring the fullness of Christ.

In Romans 6, Paul gives us a wonderful picture of deification. Through baptism we “walk in newness of life” (v. 4). We are not to let sin “reign in [our] mortal bod[ies]” (v. 12), but are to “present [ourselves] to God” (v. 13) so that sin will “not have dominion over” us (v. 14). Our members are to be yielded to “righteousness for holiness” (v. 19). Therefore we have “been set free from sin, and hav[e] become slaves of God” (v. 22). Our hope is to share in “the glory of God” (5:2). Even the very creation “eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God” (8:19).

Continuing in chapter 8, we are indeed called “sons of God” (v. 14) who have received a “Spirit of adoption,” crying (as Jesus did) “Abba, Father” (v. 15). The Spirit bears witness “with our spirit”—union—that we are “children of God” (v. 16). We are children, “heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ . . . that we may also be glorified together” (v. 17). Verse 17 also stipulates, “if indeed we suffer with Him.” We will come back to that in relation to the experience of the saints who have attained deification.

In verse 29, St. Paul writes that we are destined to be “conformed to the image of His Son.” Furthermore, those He “justified, these He also glorified” (v. 30). Note that he did not say God will glorify them only after they die, at the final resurrection. This glorifying can be a present reality. Verse 32 says that God will “with Him also freely give us all things.”

Does this not get you just a little bit excited? Does it not describe something more than “being saved” or “going to heaven when I die”? Is your heart racing just a little? If so, you are starting to grasp theosis. It is an understanding of our purpose as believers that is not just Orthodox, it is thoroughly biblical.

Before we briefly note some other New Testament passages, let’s consider an additional way to understand deification from the Book of Genesis. There we learn that we are created in God’s image. Through sin, that image has been greatly broken and damaged, but through redemption in Christ it is renewed “according to the image of Him who created” it, as Paul notes in Colossians 3:10. Add all these other motifs—sonship, being fellow heirs, union, being made like Christ, partaking of the divine nature—and we see that these describe the divine image, broken and marred (but not altogether lost) through Adam’s fall, being remade in us through Christ’s redeeming work, so that we become like God. Thus in Genesis we are created in God’s image; through Christ we are given the opportunity to acquire God’s likeness. In Ephesians 4:23–24 this very idea is reinforced: “be renewed in the spirit of your mind” and “put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.” And in 5:1 we are enjoined to be “imitators of God.”

A number of other New Testament passages describe theosis:

Romans 12:1–2: We are to present our bodies as a “living sacrifice,” doing so as part of our spiritual worship. And we are to “be transformed” by the renewing of our minds into the likeness of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:17: We are reminded that we are God’s “temple” and that “he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him”—union with God.

Galatians 2:20: “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.”

Philippians 1:21: “For me, to live is Christ.”

Colossians 3:3: We have “died” and our lives are “hidden with Christ in God”—total participation in Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23: May God “sanctify you completely”—complete conformity to the image and likeness of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:14: We were called by God “for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

1 John 4:17: “Because as He is, so are we in this world”—the possibility of deification, total participation in Christ this side of eternity.

John 17:22: In His high priestly prayer, Jesus says that He has given us the glory that the Father gave Him.

Revelation 21:7: At the beginning of the eschaton, Christ says of each of us, “I will be his God and he shall be My son.”

1 John 3:2: “We know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

Philippians 3:21: Christ will “transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body.”

These passages promise to all Christians an ending “like Christ” at the consummation of history. Since that is our end—actually a new beginning, for which we were created and redeemed—we are urged throughout the New Testament to obtain more and more of that reality in this life, as a “dress rehearsal” for the life to come. In short, this is what theosis/deification is: the possibility that we can acquire in this life that state that we will have as resurrected, glorified persons in the presence of God in eternity.

Finally, we must consider our Lord’s transfiguration on Mt. Tabor (Matt. 17:1ff; Mark 9:2ff). One of the twelve major feasts of the Orthodox Church, it provides great insight for our understanding of theosis. Jesus went up the mountain with Peter, James, and John and was transformed before their eyes. He appeared to them in His glorified humanity and was illumined with the light of divinity. Moses and Elijah, representing the Law and the Prophets, appeared with Christ as He was enveloped by the glory cloud, the presence of the Holy Spirit. As at His baptism, the Father spoke, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” (Matthew 17:5).

Here we have the whole Bible summed up in this one event. The Old Testament, the Law and the Prophets, point to Christ, the eternal Son come in the flesh. He appears with the Holy Spirit and the Father—the Trinity. Through His Incarnation He is joined to our humanity and glorifies it in Himself, uniting us to God, fulfilling the purpose of our creation in Genesis. We are to listen to Him because He is God’s ultimate revelation of Himself to us (cf. Hebrews 1:1; John 1:14). Furthermore, this event occurred to prepare the disciples for Christ’s crucifixion, which would deliver our fallen humanity from sin and death and raise us up with Him in His resurrection.

Thus we may be glorified together with Him. We are joined to Christ in His glorified, deified humanity and so are united to God. Through this union we are made partakers of the divine nature. Through grace we can become what He is.

 

SquaredCircle

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I suspect that “Theosis” within Eastern Orthodoxy was a doctrine you found attractive, @SquaredCircle ?

Still do ! It is beautiful and ancient , but like all religions its origins are lost and the control of the church See and its politics have pushed me away ! There are other huge bible formation issues I have that are not cool with the Church ! So I walked in fear and saved myself !
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Messages
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Many passages in the New Testament speak to the Orthodox understanding of deification/theosis. First is 2 Peter 1:3–4, which states that God’s “divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness” through the knowledge of God, who called us by His own glory and goodness. Through these things, He has given us His great promises so that we “may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”

This verse clearly and unequivocally states that we can become partakers of the divine nature. How so? Through God’s divine power at work in us, we gain life and godliness and are given His promises so that we can escape from corruption. There is God’s action in and upon us, and there is response and corresponding effort on our part.

This brings to mind Philippians 2:12–13, where St. Paul tells us to “work out [our] salvation with fear and trembling,” for it is God who is at work in us “both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” Thus we get a clear picture here of the process by which we are renewed and unified so completely with God that we become by grace what God is by nature. God works in us, and we cooperate with His grace.

Another passage of note is John 10:34–36. In a dispute with the Pharisees, Jesus refers to the verse quoted above, Psalm 82:6, where human beings are referred to as “gods.” The Jewish leaders accuse Jesus of blasphemy and are ready to stone Him for equating Himself with the Father (vv. 22–33). Jesus replies, “ Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),” then why do they label as blasphemy Jesus calling Himself God’s Son? Jesus is truly God’s Son, and we are gods because we share in His sonship.

Consider Acts 17:28–29, where St. Paul approvingly quotes the Greek poets, who state that we are God’s “offspring.” Paul concludes that since we are “the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature” is like some lifeless object.

Throughout Paul’s epistles, we find many descriptive passages referring to the same concepts that we have been considering: union with God, sharing in the divine nature through grace, and total participation in Jesus Christ—the biblical concept of theosis/deification. In Ephesians 1, Paul states that we have been given “every spiritual blessing” (v. 3) so that we should be “holy and without blame” (v. 4); we are His “sons” (v. 5). He made “the riches of His grace . . . to abound toward us” (vv. 6–7). We are given wisdom and insight into the “mystery of His will” (v. 9), which is to “gather together in one all things in Christ” (v. 10).

Furthermore, we are “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise” (v. 13), the “guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession” (v. 14). We are recipients of “wisdom and revelation” (v. 17), having “the eyes of [our] understanding . . . enlightened” (v. 18); knowing the “exceeding greatness of His power toward us” (v. 19). We are the “body” of Him who is the head and “the fullness of Him who fills all in all” (v. 23).

These are descriptions of sonship, of human beings as children of God with full pedigree and inheritance rights. We are brought into God’s intimate inner circle to know the mystery of His will, being given wisdom and enlightenment. We have grace lavished upon us and are His body, His fullness. The whole purpose of God’s mystery is that all things will be united in Christ and that He will be all in all. Does this not describe partaking of the divine nature, becoming by grace what God is by nature?

Certainly there is much more being described here than “growing in faith and good works,” progressing in sanctification or mortifying sin. Those are indeed excellent enterprises, but not ends in themselves. They are means employed toward a greater end. St. Paul is outlining this compelling, inspiring description of our identity in Christ, indeed showing us what total participation in Christ actually is. Ephesians 1 is a description of theosis.

In other verses in Ephesians, St. Paul continues: we are to “be filled with all the fullness of God” (3:19) and to attain to “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” (4:13). We are to “grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ” (4:15). Again, this describes the process of being deified by grace, acquiring the fullness of Christ.

In Romans 6, Paul gives us a wonderful picture of deification. Through baptism we “walk in newness of life” (v. 4). We are not to let sin “reign in [our] mortal bod[ies]” (v. 12), but are to “present [ourselves] to God” (v. 13) so that sin will “not have dominion over” us (v. 14). Our members are to be yielded to “righteousness for holiness” (v. 19). Therefore we have “been set free from sin, and hav[e] become slaves of God” (v. 22). Our hope is to share in “the glory of God” (5:2). Even the very creation “eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God” (8:19).

Continuing in chapter 8, we are indeed called “sons of God” (v. 14) who have received a “Spirit of adoption,” crying (as Jesus did) “Abba, Father” (v. 15). The Spirit bears witness “with our spirit”—union—that we are “children of God” (v. 16). We are children, “heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ . . . that we may also be glorified together” (v. 17). Verse 17 also stipulates, “if indeed we suffer with Him.” We will come back to that in relation to the experience of the saints who have attained deification.

In verse 29, St. Paul writes that we are destined to be “conformed to the image of His Son.” Furthermore, those He “justified, these He also glorified” (v. 30). Note that he did not say God will glorify them only after they die, at the final resurrection. This glorifying can be a present reality. Verse 32 says that God will “with Him also freely give us all things.”

Does this not get you just a little bit excited? Does it not describe something more than “being saved” or “going to heaven when I die”? Is your heart racing just a little? If so, you are starting to grasp theosis. It is an understanding of our purpose as believers that is not just Orthodox, it is thoroughly biblical.

Before we briefly note some other New Testament passages, let’s consider an additional way to understand deification from the Book of Genesis. There we learn that we are created in God’s image. Through sin, that image has been greatly broken and damaged, but through redemption in Christ it is renewed “according to the image of Him who created” it, as Paul notes in Colossians 3:10. Add all these other motifs—sonship, being fellow heirs, union, being made like Christ, partaking of the divine nature—and we see that these describe the divine image, broken and marred (but not altogether lost) through Adam’s fall, being remade in us through Christ’s redeeming work, so that we become like God. Thus in Genesis we are created in God’s image; through Christ we are given the opportunity to acquire God’s likeness. In Ephesians 4:23–24 this very idea is reinforced: “be renewed in the spirit of your mind” and “put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.” And in 5:1 we are enjoined to be “imitators of God.”

A number of other New Testament passages describe theosis:

Romans 12:1–2: We are to present our bodies as a “living sacrifice,” doing so as part of our spiritual worship. And we are to “be transformed” by the renewing of our minds into the likeness of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:17: We are reminded that we are God’s “temple” and that “he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him”—union with God.

Galatians 2:20: “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.”

Philippians 1:21: “For me, to live is Christ.”

Colossians 3:3: We have “died” and our lives are “hidden with Christ in God”—total participation in Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23: May God “sanctify you completely”—complete conformity to the image and likeness of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:14: We were called by God “for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

1 John 4:17: “Because as He is, so are we in this world”—the possibility of deification, total participation in Christ this side of eternity.

John 17:22: In His high priestly prayer, Jesus says that He has given us the glory that the Father gave Him.

Revelation 21:7: At the beginning of the eschaton, Christ says of each of us, “I will be his God and he shall be My son.”

1 John 3:2: “We know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”

Philippians 3:21: Christ will “transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body.”

These passages promise to all Christians an ending “like Christ” at the consummation of history. Since that is our end—actually a new beginning, for which we were created and redeemed—we are urged throughout the New Testament to obtain more and more of that reality in this life, as a “dress rehearsal” for the life to come. In short, this is what theosis/deification is: the possibility that we can acquire in this life that state that we will have as resurrected, glorified persons in the presence of God in eternity.

Finally, we must consider our Lord’s transfiguration on Mt. Tabor (Matt. 17:1ff; Mark 9:2ff). One of the twelve major feasts of the Orthodox Church, it provides great insight for our understanding of theosis. Jesus went up the mountain with Peter, James, and John and was transformed before their eyes. He appeared to them in His glorified humanity and was illumined with the light of divinity. Moses and Elijah, representing the Law and the Prophets, appeared with Christ as He was enveloped by the glory cloud, the presence of the Holy Spirit. As at His baptism, the Father spoke, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” (Matthew 17:5).

Here we have the whole Bible summed up in this one event. The Old Testament, the Law and the Prophets, point to Christ, the eternal Son come in the flesh. He appears with the Holy Spirit and the Father—the Trinity. Through His Incarnation He is joined to our humanity and glorifies it in Himself, uniting us to God, fulfilling the purpose of our creation in Genesis. We are to listen to Him because He is God’s ultimate revelation of Himself to us (cf. Hebrews 1:1; John 1:14). Furthermore, this event occurred to prepare the disciples for Christ’s crucifixion, which would deliver our fallen humanity from sin and death and raise us up with Him in His resurrection.

Thus we may be glorified together with Him. We are joined to Christ in His glorified, deified humanity and so are united to God. Through this union we are made partakers of the divine nature. Through grace we can become what He is.
I think the clearest interpretation of the above passages comes in the understanding of the tripartite nature of Man:-

 

SquaredCircle

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224
I agree.

Actually ironically the religious/spirtual (as opposed to social...er, um..) things that Protestants hate about Orthodoxy and Catholicism are actually the best things about it.
Whereas the very things that define and embody Protestantism is the very things that are bad about Orthodoxy and Catholicism, except they do it even worse and on a more autonomous chaotic scale. (aka, Protestantism took out everything good and then amplified everything bad, then tried to call itself "OG KVLT!")
Some Christian eschatologist called me an idiot lol Im not bragging , but if Im an idiot I would love to see what a smart person types on these threads ! You seem to be above average in IQ . All I know is that I know little , but through Amun the many eyed many winged and Intent I have learned by myself enough to become ignorant again causing a desire to experience ritual prayer/ magic on a cosmic subjective life !
 
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Some Christian eschatologist called me an idiot lol Im not bragging , but if Im an idiot I would love to see what a smart person types on these threads !
That kind of behavior from that demographic doesn't surprise me, it's usually the issue of trying to sell something rather than have a discussion. In my time here since finding this place last July, my experience has mostly (except for a select few individuals with true hearts and minds) reflected that.
 

SquaredCircle

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That kind of behavior from that demographic doesn't surprise me, it's usually the issue of trying to sell something rather than have a discussion. In my time here since finding this place last July, my experience has mostly (except for a select few individuals with true hearts and minds) reflected that.
Yeah its sad , but I was once young and stiff necked due to cult conditioning of fear , hell , fire etc etc etc .. Im saddened that people suffer these maladies , but few ever break away ! They just keep jumping from one latest evangelical trend to the next !
It is really a form of mental psychosis
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Messages
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“Have you ever noticed,” said Dimble, “that the universe, and every bit of the universe is always hardening and narrowing and coming to a point?”​
His wife waited as those wait who know by long experience the mental processes of the person who is talking to them.​
“I mean this,” said Dimble in answer to the question she had not asked. “If you dip into any college, or school, or parish, or family – anything you like – at a given point in its history, you always find that there was a time before that point when there was more elbow room and contrasts weren’t quite so sharp; and that there’s going to be a time after that point when there is even less room for indecision and choices are even more momentous. Good is always getting better and bad is always getting worse: the possibilities of even apparent neutrality are always diminishing. The whole thing is sorting itself out all the time, coming to a point, getting sharper and harder.”​

C.S. Lewis, That Hideous Strength (The Space Trilogy, #3)
 

phipps

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You don't believe someone can have faith but show zero works? (There is no guarantee the Thief of the Cross WILL produce any works). He went to heaven because he was justified by his faith. What about all the introvert believer that doesn't show any works. Are they damn?

so you agreed "faith without works" existed. If there is no such thing as "faith without works" it cannot be dead. Clearly dead here mean it's unprofitable. A dead faith is unprofitable, unfruitful -- no disagreement here.

People can only see your works not faith. I agreed with everything in this passage. A dead faith is useless, it doesn't bring any fruit. This doesn't mean they are not save. I believe James was encouraging believer to be fruitful here, he's not saying you are not save if you don't produce any works. He's simply saying don't be useless for the Kingdom.

As for Abraham, he was justified by works to who though? To men, not God.

“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

I think you skipped over this
And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
It didn't say Abraham does this does that and it accounted to him for righteousness. His faith is what counted.


agreed


yes, our faith CAN manifested by our works

I just want to zoomed into this part. THIS IS EXACTLY ALL I'M SAYING. You said it, we are not saved by works.

Was Abraham saved due to him offering his son on the alter?

God look at the heart, anyone can say they believe God died for them but if they are not sincere, they aren't save.

David was an adulterous and a murderer,

I think there are confusion about OSAS. I don't believe OSAS think they should NOT obey God, don't do any works, license to sins. People tend to think OSAS just sit on our butt all day because we are saved no matter what. The true is we want to be blessed, and fruitful for the Kingdom. We obeyed God and preach the Gospel to the lost. We follow God's commandments...etc However, all these things does not accounted for our righteousness. Yes, people can see the manifestation of our faith by our works, but only our Faith are accounted. I've been saved for about 4 years now and I've brought about 30 people to the Lord because I obey God's commandment to preach the Gospel to the lost. God have blessed me abundantly for my services and people can see the blessing. Do I believe my services for the Lord has ANYTHING to do with my salvation? Absolutely NOT. JESUS get all the credits, matter of fact, I can't do anything without Him. I don't even take any credits for those 30 souls because if He didn't draw them to me, there is NOTHING I can do. I will continue to rely on His strength on my journey to be as fruitful for Him as possible.
You don't believe someone can have faith but show zero works? (There is no guarantee the Thief of the Cross WILL produce any works). He went to heaven because he was justified by his faith. What about all the introvert believer that doesn't show any works. Are they damn?
Unless one dies after they've just accepted Christ like the the thief on the cross, faith is not enough. As long as we continue to live, our faith will have works. Just like, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also". James gave the analogy of the body and spirit to show how faith and works cannot be separated. He understood what the Bible says on the subject. Do you? I will explain using the Word of God. When God created us He breathed the breath of life or spirit into us (Job 27:3). The body and Spirit together make a living being or soul (Genesis 2:7). When we die the spirit goes back to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7), and the physical body returns to the dust. The physical body and spirit or breath of life cannot survive on their own individually. A living soul or being cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. Does this not make it plain what James meant about faith and works?

God looks at our individual situations, He judges the motivations of our hearts too and will judge us fairly and justly, but most people don't die immediately after accepting Christ. Introverts are not an exception to the rule, no one is. They have to have faith and works too. Jesus was our example and He obeyed God till death. He had faith and works. That is how we are to live our lives daily. Everything we do will reflect Christ in our hearts.

so you agreed "faith without works" existed. If there is no such thing as "faith without works" it cannot be dead. Clearly dead here mean it's unprofitable. A dead faith is unprofitable, unfruitful -- no disagreement here.
James 2:14-17, "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Come on Floss, this is not hard to understand. Are you going to be one of those Christians who dismisses what the Word of God teaches or come up with obvious excuses and different explanations to the plain truth of what the Bible teaches because you can't accept your doctrine is false? You know very well what James meant nor is it hard to understand as I explained above. He meant faith on its own is dead and so is works on its own. Where there is faith there is works. And where there is works, there you will find faith.

People can only see your works not faith. I agreed with everything in this passage. A dead faith is useless, it doesn't bring any fruit. This doesn't mean they are not save. I believe James was encouraging believer to be fruitful here, he's not saying you are not save if you don't produce any works. He's simply saying don't be useless for the Kingdom.
This is your false doctrine of osas talking again. You know faith is belief in God. If one has a dead faith how can they be saved? You should read Hebrews 11:1-6. All those verses talk about faith. Verse 6 says, "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Its not hard to understand this. James is saying we all have to be fruitful spiritually and through our works or we will be cut off. Jesus Himself said, "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire" (Matthew 7:19). If we are saved, our works will be proof of that. No one is going to heaven without proof of heir faith through their works. Don't twist the truth of God's Word to fit in with your doctrine.

As for Abraham, he was justified by works to who though? To men, not God.

“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

I think you skipped over this
And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
It didn't say Abraham does this does that and it accounted to him for righteousness. His faith is what counted.
I did not skip over anything. I explained justification by faith. All you had to do was apply it to the above scripture. I wanted you to go find out the rest of how these verses work in harmony with what James said and not contradict him but you are continuing to make the Word of God contradict itself instead. I don't have to explain everything to you. Study the Bible and everything it says about faith to know the truth about faith completely. Don't base your belief about faith on one part of scripture alone. The Bible does not talk about a subject in one place. I have a forum on faith with a lot of scripture from the Bible too https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/bible-verses-about-faith.5512/. Please remember to ask for guidance from the Holy Spirit.

yes, our faith CAN manifested by our works
Unless we die just after we accept Christ which is not true for most people, our faith is proved through our works.

I just want to zoomed into this part. THIS IS EXACTLY ALL I'M SAYING. You said it, we are not saved by works.
Either you genuinely don't get it or you don't want to. I will repeat, "We are not saved by works, but our works prove who we love, believe and worship." If I marry someone and they say the love me but they abuse me and hurt me (sin hurts God) then how can that be love? Jesus expressed His love for His Father by by being obedient to Him. His works proved that.

Was Abraham saved due to him offering his son on the alter?
No but his works were a result of his faith. How else would we know about Abraham's faith?

God look at the heart, anyone can say they believe God died for them but if they are not sincere, they aren't save.
True, and if people are sincere about believing in God then their works will prove that. The way they deal with people daily, the way they talk, dress etc. God will be the most important person in their life. They will not compromise their beliefs for anyone or anything. Just like Christ.

David was an adulterous and a murderer,
Yes and he repented (2 Samuel 12:1–15, Psalms 32, 51:1-9). But osas teaches if people don't repent and die in their sin, that's fine as long as they accepted Christ as their personal Saviour at one point in their lives. That is not biblical. We all fall and sin, we confess and get back up on our journey. We start over and we ask God to help us live according to His will and ask for the Holy Spirit to guide so we don't sin. As we get more sanctified we sin less and less. Had David not repented and died in his sins, he would be doomed lie Saul. in Psalm 51:11 David prayed, "And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me." He knew what happens when God takes His spirit away from someone. He had Saul as an example.

I think there are confusion about OSAS. I don't believe OSAS think they should NOT obey God, don't do any works, license to sins. People tend to think OSAS just sit on our butt all day because we are saved no matter what.
Osas makes people complacent about sin. When they sin, they don't think its that bad. The Bible makes it clear that God hates all manner of sin, little or big, of commission or omission, but loves the sinner. This explains why He left the glory of heaven to come and willingly die for our sins. The death paid the debt and the penalty of sin and gives us power to overcome evil with good through His power that works within us.

The true is we want to be blessed, and fruitful for the Kingdom. We obeyed God and preach the Gospel to the lost. We follow God's commandments...etc However, all these things does not accounted for our righteousness. Yes, people can see the manifestation of our faith by our works, but only our Faith are accounted.
Then this is not according to God's word. "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only" (James 2:21-24). Do you see how justification, faith, works and righteousness are bound together? Can one be righteous without faith and works? When we choose to co-operate with Christ by being obedient to his will, that is righteousness.

Faith on its own will not and does not count except for the very few who died just after accepting Christ as their personal Saviour. Faith is belief in God but guess what, even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19) but that is not going to save them is it?

I've been saved for about 4 years now and I've brought about 30 people to the Lord because I obey God's commandment to preach the Gospel to the lost. God have blessed me abundantly for my services and people can see the blessing. Do I believe my services for the Lord has ANYTHING to do with my salvation? Absolutely NOT. JESUS get all the credits, matter of fact, I can't do anything without Him. I don't even take any credits for those 30 souls because if He didn't draw them to me, there is NOTHING I can do. I will continue to rely on His strength on my journey to be as fruitful for Him as possible.
Its great that you are saved and preach the gospel to others. I hope you continue to do so but its important that you preach the truth of God's Word to those you bring to the Lord. The truth is not popular and some find it restrictive but its not. The road to heaven is not easy. That is why we are told the gate to heaven is narrow and few find it.

No one's services or works has anything to do with their salvation, its the outward sign of our faith, that's all. Remember God will judge us by our works because our works portray what we really believe. What we hold dear in our hearts. We cannot do it on our own of course. We come to Christ to give us that power to overcome daily. So we all have to rely on Jesus' strength daily and if we fall, we ask Him to forgive us and He stretches His hand and helps us up. But if we sin wilfully and die in our sins, we will be lost. And osas does not teach that truth of God's Word (Ezekiel 18:21,24, 32 John 8:10-11, John 15:10, 2 Timothy 2:19, Hebrews 10:26-28, 2 Peter 2:20, 1 John 2:4).

I tell you this as a fellow Christian to another in love, stop dismissing the Word of God when it doesn't agree with your doctrine. Stop making the Word of God support your doctrine but rather let the Bible interpret itself. Pray that you accept God's Word as it is. Also as Christians we've got to learn to distinguish the truth of God's Word from false doctrines. Osas is a wrong doctrine and not biblical. Its a feel good doctrine that makes some Christians complacent in their sin. As Christians we are not to be complacent about any sin. We have to daily deal with sin. We must by the grace of God bring all our sin to the Lord sincerely and confess. Once unconfessed sin begins to fester in our hearts and lives, there is absolutely no telling what sad chapters will be written even though we claim to be the people of God. So its up to you who and what you'll choose to believe. God's Word or your doctrine. I can't say any more than this.
 
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SquaredCircle

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“Have you ever noticed,” said Dimble, “that the universe, and every bit of the universe is always hardening and narrowing and coming to a point?”​
His wife waited as those wait who know by long experience the mental processes of the person who is talking to them.​
“I mean this,” said Dimble in answer to the question she had not asked. “If you dip into any college, or school, or parish, or family – anything you like – at a given point in its history, you always find that there was a time before that point when there was more elbow room and contrasts weren’t quite so sharp; and that there’s going to be a time after that point when there is even less room for indecision and choices are even more momentous. Good is always getting better and bad is always getting worse: the possibilities of even apparent neutrality are always diminishing. The whole thing is sorting itself out all the time, coming to a point, getting sharper and harder.”​

C.S. Lewis, That Hideous Strength (The Space Trilogy, #3)
I believe in expansion and collapse . I believe physics agree as well . Cool segment ! I never read Lewis , but years and years ago I would read from GK Chesterton’s society magazine and Lewis came up from time to time .
How neat it would have been to listen in on Lewis and Tolkien as they walked the evening grounds of Oxford . Thanks for the post
 

Cintra

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@SquaredCircle

You should try C.S.Lewis - Till We Have Faces
It is a retelling of a greek myth. You may enjoy that.

Sadly his science fiction books seem very outdated now.

Also, some people suggest that along with the Christian allegory in the Narnia books, there is also a strand of Classical mythology running throught them, with one planet and its symbols running through the story like a hidden thread.
You may be interested in that.
 

SquaredCircle

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@SquaredCircle

You should try C.S.Lewis - Till We Have Faces
It is a retelling of a greek myth. You may enjoy that.

Sadly his science fiction books seem very outdated now.

Also, some people suggest that along with the Christian allegory in the Narnia books, there is also a strand of Classical mythology running throught them, with one planet and its symbols running through the story like a hidden thread.
You may be interested in that.
Thanks Ive studied Lewis extensively ! That is why I never read him . Great topic though . Peace and hair grease lol
 

Lisa

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Do you know that in the oldest bibles on earth there is zero accounts of Jesus’s resurrection.
I hadn’t heard that about the oldest Bibles..who has one of those do ya think?

I will not argue faith , because it is useless .
I could have faith that H.P Lovecraft was god and how could you refute my faith based claims ?
It’s hard to argue faith when you don’t have any.

The Bible doesn’t say H.P. Lovecraft was God..

I respect your faith , but there is zero proof outside of a bible for Jesus’s resurrection.
Not really, I watched a video the other day about there being proof outside the Bible. However, the Bible is really all you need for proof.

Why did god need a blood sacrifice to save humanity ? Its IMO that blood atonement is a pagan hold over and is man created ! No god of love has a track record of death like is found in the Torah , Quran , or the Bible . Love your god or else its curtains ?
Sin is that bad to God that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. However, I think you’re overlooking that God sent His Son to be that sacrifice for our sins. God loves us that He didn’t make us all pay the price for sin if we believe on His Son.

I can’t say that the quran has anything to do with my God.

Do you want to live forever with a God you don’t care anything about?
Jesus died, because he taught in secret the true way to God was internal work that ANYONE could do . This threatened the Jews and Romans . You see salvation was and is big business that creates huge amounts of money and gold for the divine leaders of all religions . Jesus preached the Kingdom of God is within you ! Not a church , Pope , King or anyone else and that is what got him killed .
What do you mean Jesus taught in secret internal work that anyone could do?
The Bible does warn about false prophets and teachers...
No, Jesus most certainly didn’t preach that God was within us...but that when He went away He would send the Helper that would live in the hearts of believers.

Do you know how ,who and how long it took to come up with the one bible to rule them all ?
Who was that?
Have you read the ancient church fathers ? Do you know that ancient Christianity was esoteric and was universal !
Are you talking catholic? I can’t say that the esoteric and universal church was Christian but was the wolves that were going to enter in the church that Paul talked about.
Do you know there was never eternal punishment theology until the dark ages ? History is on my side as are countless books !
I don’t believe that for a second. It wasn’t just added in.
How’s that?
Do you know Jesus is mentioned only by one person that lived within Jesus’s life time his name was Josephus (50’s AD). The rest of Jesus’s mentions( outside the bible) are well after compiled faith based followers were scribbling accounts well after his death .
Are you saying Josephus doesn’t count? And I guess you are also saying the Bible doesn’t count at all..when it’s actually the only book that does count.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@SquaredCircle said:
“Do you know Jesus is mentioned only by one person that lived within Jesus’s life time his name was Josephus (50’s AD). The rest of Jesus’s mentions( outside the bible) are well after compiled faith based followers were scribbling accounts well after his death.”

On the external evidence for Jesus...

“The fact that Jesus was recognized by the pagans of Rome can be unsettling if you thought he was strictly the invention of religious zealots.”

92BE5D8F-661A-4F20-A4C8-B3DB802D95F5.jpeg

If you ask people about the existence of Christ, they usually fall into one of three camps: the faithful who sing his praises, the atheists who consider him a mythological creation, and the skeptics who fall somewhere in between.

But regardless of your personal feelings about Jesus of Nazareth, little doubt remains that he was a real person who once walked this earth. A wealth of historical accounts exist to assure us of this—with many of the most compelling coming from nonbelievers themselves.

Hostile Witnesses is an examination of the best historical evidence for Christ’s existence, particularly the evidence provided to us by the most unexpected of sources. From the pagans of ancient Rome, to Jewish and Muslim writings, these accounts create a solid fact-based history of Jesus’s life on earth…one that believers and nonbelievers will find equally compelling.
 
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I think the clearest interpretation of the above passages comes in the understanding of the tripartite nature of Man:-
No.


Continued:

Theosis in the Writings of the Fathers
We began with a somewhat startling quote by St. Athanasius: “God became man so that men might become gods.” Keep in mind that this is the same Athanasius who championed the orthodox (in its common sense of correct) understanding of the full divinity of Christ in opposition to the Arian heresy. Numerous other early Church Fathers made similar statements.

Gregory of Nazianzus, another great champion of correct views about the Trinity and Christ’s divinity, stated: “Man has been ordered to become God.” His close friend, Basil the Great, said, “From the Holy Spirit is the likeness of God, and the highest thing to be desired, to become God.”

Origen noted that the spirit “is deified by that which it contemplates.” And Cyril of Alexandria commented that we are all called to take part in divinity, becoming the likeness of Christ and the image of the Father by “participation.” Irenaeus noted, “If the Word is made man, it is that man might become gods.” Finally, John of Damascus taught that Christ’s redemptive work enables the image of God to be restored in us so that we become “partakers of divinity.”

These are not just Eastern Church Fathers being quoted. Most, if not all, are recognized by East and West. Theosis is a truly catholic understanding of the goal of our relationship with God in Christ.


Many Protestants, and even some Roman Catholics, might find the Orthodox concept of theosis unnerving. Especially when they read a quote such as this one from St. Athanasius: “God became man so that men might become gods,” they immediately fear an influence of Eastern mysticism from Hinduism or pantheism.

But such an influence could not be further from the Orthodox understanding. The human person does not merge with some sort of impersonal divine force, losing individual identity or consciousness. Intrinsic divinity is never ascribed to humankind or any part of the creation, and no created thing is confused with the being of God. Most certainly, humans are not accorded ontological equality with God, nor are they considered to merge or co-mingle with the being of God as He is in His essence.

In fact, to safeguard against any sort of misunderstanding of this kind, Orthodox theologians have been careful to distinguish between God’s essence and His energies. God is incomprehensible in His essence. But God, who is love, allows us to know Him through His divine energies, those actions whereby He reveals Himself to us in creation, providence, and redemption. It is through the divine energies, therefore, that we achieve union with God.

We become united with God by grace in the Person of Christ, who is God come in the flesh. The means of becoming “like God” is through perfection in holiness, the continuous process of acquiring the Holy Spirit by grace through ascetic devotion. Some Protestants might refer to this process as sanctification. Another term for it, perhaps more familiar to Western Christians, would be mortification—putting sin to death within ourselves.

In fact, deification is very akin to the Wesleyan understanding of holiness or perfection, with the added element of our mystical union with God in Christ as both the means and the motive for attaining perfection. Fr. David Hester, in his booklet, The Jesus Prayer, identifies theosis as “the gradual process by which a person is renewed and unified so completely with God that he becomes by grace what God is by nature.” Another way of stating it is “sharing in the divine nature through grace.”

St. Maximos the Confessor, as Fr. Hester notes, defined theosis as “total participation in Jesus Christ.” Careful to maintain the ontological safeguard noted above, St. Maximos further stated, “All that God is, except for an identity in being, one becomes when one is deified by grace.”

C. S. Lewis understood this concept and expressed it compellingly in Mere Christianity:

"The command “Be ye perfect” is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him—for we can prevent Him, if we choose—He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creatures, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to Him perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said." - C.S. Lewis
 

Red Sky at Morning

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No.


Continued:

Theosis in the Writings of the Fathers
We began with a somewhat startling quote by St. Athanasius: “God became man so that men might become gods.” Keep in mind that this is the same Athanasius who championed the orthodox (in its common sense of correct) understanding of the full divinity of Christ in opposition to the Arian heresy. Numerous other early Church Fathers made similar statements.

Gregory of Nazianzus, another great champion of correct views about the Trinity and Christ’s divinity, stated: “Man has been ordered to become God.” His close friend, Basil the Great, said, “From the Holy Spirit is the likeness of God, and the highest thing to be desired, to become God.”

Origen noted that the spirit “is deified by that which it contemplates.” And Cyril of Alexandria commented that we are all called to take part in divinity, becoming the likeness of Christ and the image of the Father by “participation.” Irenaeus noted, “If the Word is made man, it is that man might become gods.” Finally, John of Damascus taught that Christ’s redemptive work enables the image of God to be restored in us so that we become “partakers of divinity.”

These are not just Eastern Church Fathers being quoted. Most, if not all, are recognized by East and West. Theosis is a truly catholic understanding of the goal of our relationship with God in Christ.


Many Protestants, and even some Roman Catholics, might find the Orthodox concept of theosis unnerving. Especially when they read a quote such as this one from St. Athanasius: “God became man so that men might become gods,” they immediately fear an influence of Eastern mysticism from Hinduism or pantheism.

But such an influence could not be further from the Orthodox understanding. The human person does not merge with some sort of impersonal divine force, losing individual identity or consciousness. Intrinsic divinity is never ascribed to humankind or any part of the creation, and no created thing is confused with the being of God. Most certainly, humans are not accorded ontological equality with God, nor are they considered to merge or co-mingle with the being of God as He is in His essence.

In fact, to safeguard against any sort of misunderstanding of this kind, Orthodox theologians have been careful to distinguish between God’s essence and His energies. God is incomprehensible in His essence. But God, who is love, allows us to know Him through His divine energies, those actions whereby He reveals Himself to us in creation, providence, and redemption. It is through the divine energies, therefore, that we achieve union with God.

We become united with God by grace in the Person of Christ, who is God come in the flesh. The means of becoming “like God” is through perfection in holiness, the continuous process of acquiring the Holy Spirit by grace through ascetic devotion. Some Protestants might refer to this process as sanctification. Another term for it, perhaps more familiar to Western Christians, would be mortification—putting sin to death within ourselves.

In fact, deification is very akin to the Wesleyan understanding of holiness or perfection, with the added element of our mystical union with God in Christ as both the means and the motive for attaining perfection. Fr. David Hester, in his booklet, The Jesus Prayer, identifies theosis as “the gradual process by which a person is renewed and unified so completely with God that he becomes by grace what God is by nature.” Another way of stating it is “sharing in the divine nature through grace.”

St. Maximos the Confessor, as Fr. Hester notes, defined theosis as “total participation in Jesus Christ.” Careful to maintain the ontological safeguard noted above, St. Maximos further stated, “All that God is, except for an identity in being, one becomes when one is deified by grace.”

C. S. Lewis understood this concept and expressed it compellingly in Mere Christianity:

"The command “Be ye perfect” is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him—for we can prevent Him, if we choose—He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creatures, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to Him perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what he said." - C.S. Lewis
An interesting read - I was not claiming that the idea of “theosis” was wrong when properly understood and explained, but that it was spiritually risky inasmuch as you can see it becoming a doctrinal stepping stone for those who wish to go further to apotheosis and self-deification.
 

SquaredCircle

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I hadn’t heard that about the oldest Bibles..who has one of those do ya think?


It’s hard to argue faith when you don’t have any.

The Bible doesn’t say H.P. Lovecraft was God..


Not really, I watched a video the other day about there being proof outside the Bible. However, the Bible is really all you need for proof.


Sin is that bad to God that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. However, I think you’re overlooking that God sent His Son to be that sacrifice for our sins. God loves us that He didn’t make us all pay the price for sin if we believe on His Son.

I can’t say that the quran has anything to do with my God.

Do you want to live forever with a God you don’t care anything about?

What do you mean Jesus taught in secret internal work that anyone could do?
The Bible does warn about false prophets and teachers...
No, Jesus most certainly didn’t preach that God was within us...but that when He went away He would send the Helper that would live in the hearts of believers.


Who was that?

Are you talking catholic? I can’t say that the esoteric and universal church was Christian but was the wolves that were going to enter in the church that Paul talked about.

I don’t believe that for a second. It wasn’t just added in.
How’s that?

Are you saying Josephus doesn’t count? And I guess you are also saying the Bible doesn’t count at all..when it’s actually the only book that does count.
Well Lisa there are two bibles in existence on Earth that are older than any other they are : Codex Vaticanus which resides in Rome at the Vatican and the Codex Sinaiticus which is at the British library and guess what there are 50 thousand or more omissions and corrections when compared to a modern bible no matter it translation !
Yet the biggest issue with both Codex’s is that they DONT contain the resurrection of Christ !!! This has caused much problems for Christians , but your Evangelical and are unaware by design of the true origins of the bible and you know nothing of the ancient church fathers who decided the course and structure of the Jesus movement!
You guys think the KJV just feel from Matthew , Mark , Luke , John and Paul’s hand writing that is infallible, because Jesus bent the apostles wills to write a perfect book to explain it all ?
No book in the NT except for Paul ( some) was written by the said author !
 
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Red Sky at Morning

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Well Lisa there are two bibles in existence on Earth that are older than any other they are : Codex Vaticanus which resides in Rome at the Vatican and the Codex Sinaiticus which is at the British library and guess what there are 50 thousand or more omissions and corrections when compared to a modern bible no matter it translation !

and


and also

 

Lisa

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Well Lisa there are two bibles in existence on Earth that are older than any other they are : Codex Vaticanus which resides in Rome at the Vatican and the Codex Sinaiticus which is at the British library and guess what there are 50 thousand or more omissions and corrections when compared to a modern bible no matter it translation !
Yet the biggest issue with both Codex’s is that they DONT contain the resurrection of Christ !!! This has caused much problems for Christians , but your Evangelical and are unaware by design of the true origins of the bible and you know nothing of the ancient church fathers who decided the course and structure of the Jesus movement!
You guys think the KJV just feel from Matthew , Mark , Luke , John and Paul’s hand writing that is infallible, because Jesus bent the apostles wills to write a perfect book to explain it all ?
No book in the NT except for Paul ( some) was written by the said author !
That’s interesting, I’ve never heard about that. I have to wonder if that’s just some faux news.

So I can’t speak to them not having the resurrection of Jesus. However, I can speak to having read about the resurrection in my Bible. I do know the true origins of the Bible and the true origins of the faux news entity that would like for everyone to believe that there are problems with the Bible. That entity wants people to believe those things so they won’t believe in Jesus and be saved. That’s the real issue here...not that there are all these mistakes in the Bible or it was just written by men. Those men didn’t know how to put together a book about God with one overarching theme..the reconciliation of the whole world to God by His Son Jesus.
 
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