"Not Real Christians"

[Artful Revealer]

Jesus is life because He’s God not because His mother was a virgin. She only needed to be a virgin so that He is God’s only begotten Son. Ya, Jesus is also human.

See, that’s wrong to pray to Mary. She is dead and can not hear prayers or intercede for anyone. That is why prayers to her are wrong. Jesus never said to pray to her...His example of prayer is to the Father only. Also no disciple/apostle prayed to her either. Praying to Mary is unbiblical..which is another reason catholicism is wrong.

Your moral judgment comes from fear, not from your heart.

 

[Lisa]

Your moral judgment comes from fear, not from your heart.

What do you mean?

 

[floss]

Jesus was pure. That's the symbolism of the Virgin birth and Mary's Immaculate Conception. Is Jesus not human then?

Prayers to Mary are usually, if not all, requests to Mary to do intercession prayers to Christ / God on one's own or another's behalf. Mary is treated as an elevated saint. That's why they have a specific term for veneration of her, called hyperdulia, dulia being the veneration of saints. Latria, or worship, is reserved for the Holy Trinity.

Why would you pray to someone who is dead and needed Jesus as much as you do?

Baby baptism, biblical or not?

 

[Artful Revealer]

Why would you pray to someone who is dead and needed Jesus as much as you do?

Baby baptism, biblical or not?

Marian devotion doesn't come from a place of necessity or because it is required for salvation. It comes from a place of love for the theotokos, the god-bearer.

Be more specific about baptism, please. Baptism isn't one-dimensional.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

“According to tradition...”

Rather than interrupt this thread I thought the whole question might make an interesting side branch to this thread...

“According to tradition...”

I have noticed the phrase come up more than once in discussions on this forum. Thinking about it has made me realise that I have a “love-hate” relationship with tradition! Let me explain... As a child I remember watching “Fiddler on the Roof” - in the musical, Topol makes some very astute...

www.vigilantcitizenforums.com

 

[Artful Revealer]

What do you mean?

Your knowledge of good and evil is dependent on the law written in the Bible and not on the law of God written on your heart.

 

[Lisa]

Marian devotion doesn't come from a place of necessity or because it is required for salvation. It comes from a place of love for the theotokos, the god-bearer.

Shouldn’t that love be for the Father not the human mom? Jesus was sent to reconcile us to the Father...

‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:18-19‬ ‭
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.​

 

[Lisa]

Your knowledge of good and evil is dependent on the law written in the Bible and not on the law of God written on your heart.

What does that have to do with praying to Mary or her being a virgin?

 

[Artful Revealer]

Shouldn’t that love be for the Father not the human mom? Jesus was sent to reconcile us to the Father...

‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:18-19‬ ‭
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.​

Yes, it should go to God first. But if you find any love to spare ...

 

[Artful Revealer]

What does that have to do with praying to Mary or her being a virgin?

You say praying to Mary is wrong. That's a moral judgment.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Your knowledge of good and evil is dependent on the law written in the Bible and not on the law of God written on your heart.

I suspect that the written Law of God would not be in contradiction to the one written on our hearts, but we must freely acknowledge that our hearts can sincerely be wrong (as this simple experiment with a compass and a magnet illustrates...)

Jeremiah 17:9, “The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?”

https://www.chaimbentorah.com/2015/01/hebrew-word-study-deceitful-wicked-אנש%D7%81-עכב/

 

[Infinityloop]

Jesus was sent to reconcile us to the Father...

That makes no sense, you're born already reconciled to "the Father", there is no possible necessity of Jesus to fill this function.

Redemption

Human nature and the nature of miracles

www.jewishhistory.org

What Jews Believe: Redemption - Jewish Theology, Lesson 6

In this final class in a six-part series, we reach the culminating and most essential concept of Jewish belief—the belief in the perfection of this world. What is universal redemption? How does it come about? How is it connected to—and the fulfillment of—all of the other concepts we have learned...

www.chabad.org

Your idolatry will not save you. Jesus will always be just a man.

 

[Lisa]

Yes, it should go to God first. But if you find any love to spare ...

It’s the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and Mary's not part of that. I find it strange that anyone would love someone they’ve never met who died long ago and give her characteristics she doesn’t have...such as being able to intercede on our behalf which is Jesus job.

Hebrews‬ ‭7:24-25‬ ‭
Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.​

‭‭

 

[Lisa]

You say praying to Mary is wrong. That's a moral judgment.

How’s that?

 

[Lisa]

That makes no sense, you're born already reconciled to "the Father", there is no possible necessity of Jesus to fill this function.

Redemption

Human nature and the nature of miracles

www.jewishhistory.org

What Jews Believe: Redemption - Jewish Theology, Lesson 6

In this final class in a six-part series, we reach the culminating and most essential concept of Jewish belief—the belief in the perfection of this world. What is universal redemption? How does it come about? How is it connected to—and the fulfillment of—all of the other concepts we have learned...

www.chabad.org

Your idolatry will not save you. Jesus will always be just a man.

No we are born sinners and are separated from God because of our sins. It is Jesus who through His sacrifice reconciles is to God when we believe in Him.

‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:18-19‬ ‭
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.​

That’s untrue...Jesus is a man but He is also God in the flesh.

Romans‬ ‭8:3‬ ‭
For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh.​

‭‭

 

[Infinityloop]

No we are born sinners and are separated from God because of our sins.

That bit, you've gotta work out before thinking more clearly about your 'answer' to that. You're just saying here, in your interpretation, that God created mankind to be lost and 'separate' (therefore we're our own Gods too) from himself. What you're basically saying, is that Sin is a deity that gives us the ability to be deities ourselves, independent of 'The Father'.

Strange theology.

 

[Artful Revealer]

How’s that?

You think people who pray to Mary will not enter Heaven, right?

 

[Lisa]

That bit, you've gotta work out before thinking more clearly about your 'answer' to that. You're just saying here, in your interpretation, that God created mankind to be lost and 'separate' (therefore we're our own Gods too) from himself. What you're basically saying, is that Sin is a deity that gives us the ability to be deities ourselves, independent of 'The Father'.

Strange theology.

Nope, I didn’t say that at all.

God created man in His image and He created woman to be a helper to man. What He created He called good. He walked with man and woman and talked with them and the only thing He told them not to do was to eat the fruit off a certain tree and if they did that He warned them that they would surely die.

It was after they disobeyed that sin entered the world. Before that Adam and Eve lives in paradise and walked closely with God.

 

[Lisa]

You think people who pray to Mary will not enter Heaven, right?

They are praying to the wrong person so more than likely they aren’t saved. That is the deciding factor on whether or not you’ll be with God.

 

[Infinityloop]

You say praying to Mary is wrong. That's a moral judgment.

And one that contradicts both the Bible and typical Christian practice.

If you ask someone to pray for you every Sunday at church, or you pray for someone else - then, according to Lisa's and Floss's argument, you're committing sin and idolatry.

But....

"as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many." - 2 Corinthians 1:11
"Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. " - James 5:14-16
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" - Matthew 5:44

All these, plus more, are "Biblical" examples of intercession. The exception with Mary is that she isn't your sisters-mothers-best friend, nor is she your Pastor or guest speaker.
She is, according to all forms of trinitarian Christianity - the mother of God. The most pure and holy of all women.