You can not be serious right now. Not only is it THE universal tenet of Christianity it is THE reason why there even is Christianity. You would be extremely hard pressed to find any person who identifies as a Christian who doesnt accept or believe in the Atonement of Christ.
Literally, the idea of Christs Death and Resurrection for the Sins of the World and Salvation is THE most foundational doctrine in Christianity. If you reject the idea of the Atonement then you are quite frankly NOT a Christian. The ENTIRE GOSPEL is 100% about the Atonement and for you to say such a thing reveals your complete lack of understanding about anything related to Christ or Christianity.
You might as well say Jesus is not a universal tenet of Christianity...
This is preposterous. You're telling me that the fantastical narrative of a virgin birth, walking on water, raised from the dead, floating up to "heaven", voices from the sky, etc.(the exact mythologies of hundreds of pagan cults) mean more than the Word of God that Jesus preached? His Gospel was to turn sinners and criminals back to faith in the Father. To heal the sick and uplift the downtrodden, all while cursing the parasite scribes. This is what should be remembered.
Atonement theology is debated on to this day without a consensus on its details.Evidence enough for me it isn't a principal tenet.
The fact is we're completely opposed in life experience and personal views. If it were 2000 years ago I would have been seeking out something closer to the Ebionite church and you would have flocked with the Paulenes. The Ebionites (followers of James, Jesus's brother) considered Paul a fraud and heretic. We have different life paths bro so not sure how important it is for us to keep going around in circles. What we think of each other really doesn't matter- God alone will judge our souls.
And so am I, again I really think that you have a skewed understanding of History and the foundation of Christianity. So the reason I focused on the actual Bible was because you made statements concerning the Bible itself. The same statements I made concerning the written text of the Bible also apply to the other Doctrines you would like to bring up. All of them were established 100's of years before the Council of Nicea or any other major Roman influence.
It seems people who really are not familiar with the History of Christianity love to point to the Council of Nicea and blame or act like it completely changed Christianity. It did not have a drastic affect on Christianity in the way people such as yourself believe. First and foremost the Council did not add anything at all to the Doctrines or ideologies of Christianity. The major discussion was centered around Arianism, the belief that Jesus was not divine but a created being, which was an idea brought to the forefront by Arius around 300ish. The idea did not stretch back much further than that, generally held as being mostly expounded and created by Saint Lucian of Antioch probably in the area of 275ish.
So the idea of the Trinity goes back to basically the inception of Christianity and can be found in writings dating to 50-75 AD (the Didache) and by early Christian Fathers and writers predating Lucian by 100's of years. If you would like I can quote you their writings by Polycarp (70-155/160), Justin Martyr (100?-165?), Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117), Irenaeus (115-190), Tertullian (160-215), Origen (185-254). So as you can see all of these people (who btw were hated by the Roman Government and some of whom were literally murdered by the Roman Government) all wrote and lived from 200-25 years before the person who basically invented the idea that later became known as Arianism existed.
Essentially, if you take the time to actually study out the people and the ideas of those people in Early Christianity and not just accept bogus nonsense you find on all the Anti Christian sites who love to place blame on Nicea and Constantine, you will come to realize that very little actually happened at Nicea and literally all the ideas that were agreed upon at that Council were fundamental ideals that existed since the inception of the Church. Therefore this belief that Rome added or removed the fundamental ideologies of Christianity is unfounded and outright not True.
We are able to go back and see clearly which Doctrines existed before the RCC and which Doctrines the RCC added or influenced and Protestantism has been the driving force to strip any RCC influence from the Church...
However plenty of people are not really educated on Christian History and therefore are not able to correctly understand which Doctrines actually come from the RCC and which were already held for 100's of year before Rome infiltrated the Church. The Trinity and probably many of the other ideologies you would like to pin on the RCC, like the Atonement Doctrine (possibly if you think it was a Roman creation) were held prior to Rome accepting Christianity as Legal let alone influencing it...
Other than the letters and "acts" of Paul (whose authenticity are debated by scholars) we have very little knowledge of the Apostolic churches. The first authentic, complete volumes of Christian writings- of Iraneus and others you mentioned I have yet to read. I thank you though because your stated allegiance to the early Hellenistic churches has piqued my curiosity into when the Gospel of Jesus Christ was taken and warped into the religious cult it became. I know who Jesus is but not these "fathers". I will further elaborate my POV- The heathen GRECO-ROMAN churches adulterated the common meaning of Jesus's ministry.
What we do know is into the Nicene era all dissenting documents and followers were obliterated. Those who aligned themselves with the establishment won the fight for supremacy, I'll give you that. I posted about this a while ago but some massive % of ancient texts were destroyed by the ruling churches and we'll never know all the diverse beliefs of the followers from those centuries.
I would say that Protestantism is more of a rejection of Catholicism than just a reformation, but regardless it is the movement brought the Church out from under the ruthless hand of the Catholic State and back to the teachings and Doctrine that the Church was originally established upon...
Whoop-tee-do. Luther was an establishment Rosicrucian. They (and others in several countries) were part of a natural evolution to break out from under the Papal thumb. You kept all the same creeds authorized by Roman emperors and the establishment church. Again my contention is with the "original" Paulene based doctrine. We don't need the apostles (or the scripture purportedly written by them) to be near to God, that's a fact.
So again, it seems you literally have not read the Bible. The Gospel of Paul is the same as Jesus. I literally quoted you the very first sermon preached after Jesus Ascended to Heaven, it was preached by Peter and he preached the Life Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The same exact thing Jesus preached about Himself, and if you read the Gospels he told Peter this:
The Gospel of Paul is Hellenised interpolation of Jewish mythology. You lost me with "after he ascended into heaven." I will have to look it up but I will give you the evidence of what parts of "scripture" were tampered with by later scribes.
You ever think that like their Master, His disciples kept a tradition of speaking in parables and tales to enlighten consciousness?
Jesus body was broken and His blood was shed for me, for my Sins! That is the most inspirational thing in the entire Bible, and if one day you would really come to know what that means, I can assure you it would be the most inspirational thing you have ever heard or known. That is pure love right there, I who was a Sinner and totally unworthy of anything except Judgement, Death and Hell, was instead offered Eternal Life by the Grace of the Work of Christ on the Cross, who took up my Sin and my Penalty upon Himself and gave me the Entire Kingdom and Life Forever!
Christ is not limited into a tiny box of what inspires either you or me. His simple message about obtaining peace means too much to too many people to confine it. Even the verse itself says that His blood is
shed for you, nothing about sins. More accurately His life was taken BECAUSE of the sins of the evil world, not FOR it. Jesus could have run far away but He chose to be given up to the murdering fake priests as a statement about the corrupt world man has created.
Just think if you were caught for all the crimes you have committed, which we both know you are guilty of, and were sentenced to Death and someone came along and said no I will take up the penalty for him and caused you to go completely free. I can guarantee that you would be exceedingly grateful and excited and it would affect your life, every single day from then on.
That times infinity is the affect the Gospel has on me and everyone else that has been Saved...
That's a beautiful testimony and I wouldn't try to condemn your experience but the understanding of God is vast, encompassing all human beings, Christians and non-Christians. Billions of people are inspired for different reasons. The only reason I'm debating with you is someone's got to tell you YOUR vision is not the only way. I don't like to jump down people's throats in every thread (not saying you do either) to tell them they're "wrong". The truth you've found in God is not the only way.
I have read it all as well, and there is a reason why the Apocrypha and the Gnostic Texts were left out of the Biblical Cannon. If you would like to discuss this further let me know and I can give you the exact reasons and show you exactly why they have been left out. But the fact is, as I stated you can make up anything you want about who God is, what He is like ect, but unless it is confirmed in the Word of God, the Bible then it is literally a figment of your imagination.
You are simply creating an Idol to Worship, one of your own invention and it would be no different than carving a piece of wood and Worshiping that...
I agree God is Love, but there is Human Love and Godly Love, can you tell the difference? If you dont have the Bible then no you cant, because Love is more than an emotional thing and Godly Love is completely different than Human Love. The Bible shows us the difference and the fact is that Gods Love is correct regardless of our Human Perspective of what and how He should Love...
You're one to talk about a figment of the imagination and idol worship. My goodness. People that lack understanding take parables and mythologies literally, just like the masses Jesus found unworthy to reveal the secret of their symbols. You honestly think the Majesty of the Creator could be contained in a book? The ancients were people striving for righteousness sure but if you can't sense the presence of God in all things...man I hope you will be given eyes to see.
Oh is that right? So if you have any luxury at all in life you are not a Disciple of Christ? From a person typing on either a phone a computer? Lol thats rich and only shows you cant even live up to your own Standards of what you think qualifies someone to be a Disciple of Christ. Clearly you are not.
You have absolutely no idea what qualifies someone as a Disciple of Christ and I can tell you that Billions of His Disciples are sitting their houses right now praying and studying His Word. They are even using their computers to try and reach Lost Souls and tell them how much God loves them, that He would send His only Son to die on their behalf so they dont have suffer the consequences of their own Sins.
This is insane to me. Billions of disciples? His disciples were told to head out traveling without food or money. To leave child, parent, or spouse into His order. In monastic orders of every faith handling filthy money is outlawed. Calling yourself a Christian/follower is very different than claiming to be a disciple. I never tried to imply I was a disciple, and it's not a curse to be a householder. I work a job and live in a house with admittedly numerous cares of this world. This is a far cry from the very special calling to discipleship. My original point was if we claim to be followers then imitate His works: heal the sick, uplift the broken-hearted, help turn our brothers and sisters away from destructive sin. Babylonian mysteries and legends are nothing compared to the work of God.
Do you even comprehend why Jesus said Get thee behind me Satan to Peter here? Do you see just how hypocritical it is of you to bring this up, while you are in the middle of trying to convince others that the Atonement isnt a central tenet of Christianity and basically are diminishing it to be nothing and worthless?
YOU ARE AS BAD AS PETER, read the verses again. Jesus began to tell the Disciples that He needed to go to Jerusalem, DIE (to make Atonement as I have quoted multiple times now) and then He would Resurrect. Peter said No Lord that cant happen, in fact Peter later talks about and tries to defend Jesus, and that is when Jesus say Get thee behind me Satan! Why? Because ONLY SATAN would truly try and prevent Jesus from getting to that Cross and doing the Will of God so that we can all be redeemed from our Sins.
You are out here straight up preaching the doctrine that Jesus called Peter Satan for talking about. I think you really really need to re evaluate where you stand...
As I've explained in another thread I purposefully skip the miracles and narration of whoever authored the Gospels. It does nothing to encourage my faith. I really don't care that a tree was cursed and never grew fruit again, or a fish jumped out the water with money in its mouth. Just like I put very little emphasis on the Book of Revelation. It's a collection of visions intended to stimulate our faith in the Judgement of God, nothing more. I see people putting WAY too much importance into the Revelation of John.
You already think I'm a lost, apostate, heretical, anti-christ but your opinion doesn't effect me one iota.
The fact is, you can not turn from your Sins, it has power over you and you know it...
But all Humanity can not turn from their Sins, it is literally impossible to actually turn from Sin unless you are Born Again and have the Holy Spirit living in you. Even when you do have the Holy Spirit living in you, you still fail many times, but Praise the Lord He is merciful, forgives us and offers us Mercy and Grace.
Only by the Grace of God can mankind turn from wrongdoing. "Born again" is one way to say it, that's great. But you aren't the Judge and Lawgiver, you don't know who can escape from wicked habits or not. No human could be "perfect" but still we're commanded to strive for perfection. It is very possible to live without consciously committing grave acts of sin. If He wills it anything is possible. These are the miracles I believe in.
Here lets look at that word translated within you in this verse and lets also use some logic to see what Jesus was actually saying here.
So this is from your own mouth " Conceited, accusing, boastful pretenders, like the parasite Jewish priests of Jesus's day" even you can see and acknowledge that the Jewish priests aka the Pharisees were against Christ. Jesus says this about them:
Matt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
So Jesus straight up says that the Pharisees are serpents and vipers, murderers, hypocrites, full of dead man bones and all uncleanness, in another place He calls them children of the Devil himself.
Now you want us to believe that Jesus then looks at these people and tells THEM that THEY have the Kingdom of Heaven inside of them? No sir, there is no way that the Pharisees had the Kingdom inside of them, they had dead man bones and uncleanness inside of them.
Here is the word in the Greek:
ἐντός, adverb ((from ἐν, opposed to ἐκτός), within, inside: with
the genitive ἐντός ὑμῶν, within you, i. e. in the midst of you, Luke 17:21
So do you see what the word means in the genitive, as in Luke 17:21? It means it is in the midst of you. Jesus was saying that the Kingdom doesnt come with observation, in otherwords its not going to be a Kingdom that is seen with the eye such as the Roman Kingdom, that we shouldnt say look there is the Kingdom over there ect. Then Jesus looks at them and says the Kingdom is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU, it is in the midst of you RIGHT NOW. Why does He say that? Because HE IS THE KINGDOM, Jesus was it, right there for them all to see, but they rejected Him because they wanted a Kingdom like David and Solomon had, but instead Jesus IS the Kingdom.
Hence when you are IN CHRIST then you are IN THE KINGDOM.
I hope one day you accept the True Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Gospel of His Love and Grace and Mercy for you and that you too can see the True Kingdom and get into it, get into Christ...
In the verses you've highlighted no, He wasn't preaching about the Kingdom. But if the evil priests were to turn from their ignorance, then they'd be closer to a "heavenly" state of being. So yes the Kingdom is a potential within us all. I'm sorry we just fundamentally disagree. Jesus never said HE was the Kingdom of God, no idea how you're inferring that. Is it because you think Jesus is God? If you rid yourself of the Greco-Roman dogma you'd see how simple the message is: Faith can move mountains!
