"Soy Boys", "Toxic Masculinity" - what does it even mean to be a "Real Man"?

[mecca]

Feminism is hardly about "making the world a better place."

Feminism is about getting rid of sexism, which would definitely make the world a better place (for men and women).

Not the current form of feminism anyway. It's mostly about hating men and patriarchy.

Some forms of feminism are not conducive to the goal of ending sexism but many others are. Women who hate men are just misandrists and they don't have any widespread support, they don't represent what feminism is. Also, the patriarchy is an unjust and sexist system that shouldn't be supported by anyone. Society should have just and equal systems where one group is not in power over the other.

But I could also bring up the MGTOW movement, which is hardly better.

Mgtow are sexist misogynists and they are certainly not comparable to people who want to get rid of sexism.

Hmm, hardly.

Well despite your beliefs... by definition, it involves a lot of critical thinking. Critical thinking skills are one of the main things you gain from one of those degrees. The fact that you think it doesn't shows your lack of understanding of what the degree entails.

And I am not praising the right either, but in colleges, leftism is rampant.

Not really, that's just a scare tactic that conservatives use... in reality, it's pretty impartial and nothing is "rampant". School is school, you go to study a topic... politics don't even really come up.
https://theconversation.com/does-college-turn-people-into-liberals-90905

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

This video got demonetized by YouTube quite soon after it was published which may either a sign of how awful it is or the degree to which its message hit a nerve.

 

[Vixy]

Jean-Luc Picard and Fox Mulder, but tbh Red, 'Soyboy' is just a way for the right to say 'fag', since it's not polite anymore, and you are better than this thread.

No I dont agree with that. Being a "fag" is one thing but a soy boy is defo straight just really whimpy. Trust me, I've been with a few. A soy boy can always go to the gym and start eating foods that increases testosterone so theres loads of hope! They seem to like being this way though.. ALl they ever find interesting seems to be gaming. Like computergames. leaves little room for the gym or girls so they stay in that form.

 

[Helioform]

Some forms of feminism are not conducive to the goal of ending sexism but many others are. Women who hate men are just misandrists and they don't have any widespread support, they don't represent what feminism is. Also, the patriarchy is an unjust and sexist system that shouldn't be supported by anyone. Society should have just and equal systems where one group is not in power over the other.

Whatever one may think, patriarchy has its good sides and bad sides. Feminists tend to only focus on the bad sides.

Well despite your beliefs... by definition, it involves a lot of critical thinking. Critical thinking skills are one of the main things you gain from one of those degrees. The fact that you think it doesn't shows your lack of understanding of what the degree entails.

Have you read the article VC wrote on ridiculous "gender studies" papers being accepted in academic journals? This is just the tip of the iceberg and I have read enough about it to make an informed judgment. I also took some sociology classes in university, mostly economics, but even that was way below the skill requirement that I needed to study comp. science. I went to a single class, missed 95% of them and still got a B+. It's all based on speculation and there is very little science involved in the "humanities" in general. Even less in Gender Studies.

Not really, that's just a scare tactic that conservatives use... in reality, it's pretty impartial and nothing is "rampant". School is school, you go to study a topic... politics don't even really come up.

Well people like Jordan Peterson have exposed the leftist bias in universities, it's a known fact. SJW's all come from college campuses.

 

[mecca]

This video got demonetized by YouTube quite soon after it was published which may either a sign of how awful it is or the degree to which its message hit a nerve.

It was demonetized because he said p***philia. Talking about p***philia on YouTube will get a video demonetized because it's not something advertisers want to put their ads on.

 

[mecca]

Whatever one may think, patriarchy has its good sides and bad sides. Feminists tend to only focus on the bad sides.

Whatever good can come from it is invalidated by it being inherently unjust. We can have a well functioning society that is also just.

Have you read the article VC wrote on ridiculous "gender studies" papers being accepted in academic journals?

Yeah I did read that article. But those papers were made up... they may have been blindly accepted by those journals but that's the journals' fault, they don't have good evaluation processes... it doesn't invalidate the idea of studying gender as a topic or the beneficial insights you can gain from studying gender.

Well people like Jordan Peterson have exposed the leftist bias in universities, it's a known fact. SJW's all come from college campuses.

Lol Jordan is an idiot and he doesn't know what he's talking about. That has never been a fact. His opinions are not based in reality and he is incapable of even acknowledging when he's wrong. He just constantly panders to his excessively loyal fan base and they parrot everything he says without thought.

 

[Helioform]

Yeah I did read that article. But those papers were made up... they may have been blindly accepted by those journals but that's the journals' fault, they don't have good evaluation processes... it doesn't invalidate the idea of studying gender as a topic or the beneficial insights you can gain from studying gender.

So what does that tell you about their standards? They're a joke and, Masters, PhDs are based on these papers so they are totally ridiculous.

Lol Jordan is an idiot and he doesn't know what he's talking about. That has never been a fact. His opinions are not based in reality and he is incapable of even acknowledging when he's wrong. He just constantly panders to his excessively loyal fan base and they parrot everything he says without thought.

I don't agree with all he says but he is right on that. What makes you say he is an idiot? He is far from that. You would know if you bothered to read or listen.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

...I'm thinking that the essence of a man is to be honorable and therefore he can be fearless.

hmmm...

and I'm wondering that many modern male role models are only reckless disguised as fearless and their self serving disguised as honor

^^ That is exactly what I mean.

You get a kind of James Bond meets Jason Statham, sex, guns and explosions kind of guy held up that you either embrace and reinforce the "toxic male" stereotype or push off against it, become a male feminist and put on a pastel kashmere pullover.

Imo - neither of these reactions scratch the surface of the question of a positive male identity.

 

[HealingHugs]

I'm not looking for sympathy or anything like that but I wanted to add my two cents. I got attacked by a gang of men, quite a fair few of them, maybe 8 or more, and a couple of men saw it happening and came straight to my rescue, fighting the men off me and then making sure I stayed safe. I have never seen either of them again but I'll never forget what those brave and very real men did for me that night.

 

[Corvus Metus]

A real man embraces who he is and doesn't care how a stranger views him.

A real man stands up for what he believes in, even if what he believes in isn't popular.

A real man has no need to oppress others because he's comfortable with himself.

A real man will help and protect those in need.

Interestingly enough those are traits of a real woman, too.

 

[Colonel Valerio]

A real man embraces who he is and doesn't care how a stranger views him.



Interestingly enough those are traits of a real woman, too.

Perfectly stated, bravo.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

A real man embraces who he is and doesn't care how a stranger views him.

A real man stands up for what he believes in, even if what he believes in isn't popular.

A real man has no need to oppress others because he's comfortable with himself.

A real man will help and protect those in need.

Interestingly enough those are traits of a real woman, too.

Well done in identifying that "positive masculinity" goes far beyond the biological level!

I read something by CS Lewis, which others have commented on, on the subject of masculinity and femininity existing beyond the ordinary physical level. I completely did not understand it when I first read it, and now I understand it just a little...

"In Lewis’s view, gender is more than just male and female, and much more than sexuality. He gives his view through both the narrator and Ransom, the chief character in Perelandra. As Ransom relates his having seen the Oyarsa or ruling angels of Malacandra (Mars) and Perelandra (Venus), the language becomes rhapsodic in describing Masculine and Feminine as the larger reality of which male and female sexuality are a small part:

"What Ransom saw at that moment was the real meaning of gender. Everyone must sometimes have wondered why in nearly all tongues certain inanimate objects are masculine and others feminine. What is masculine about a mountain or feminine about certain trees? Ransom has cured me of believing that this is a purely morphological phenomenon, depending on the form of the word. Still less is gender an imaginative extension of sex. Our ancestors did not make mountains masculine because they projected male characteristics into them. The real process is the reverse. Gender is a reality, and a more fundamental reality than sex. Sex is, in fact, merely the organic adaptation to organic life of a fundamental polarity which divides all created beings. Female sex is simply one of the things that have feminine gender; there are many others, and Masculine and Feminine meet us on planes of reality where male and female would be simply meaningless. Masculine is not attenuated male, nor feminine attenuated female. On the contrary, the male and female of organic creatures are rather faint and blurred reflections of masculine and feminine. Their reproductive functions, their differences in strength and size, partly exhibit, but partly also confuse and misrepresent, the real polarity."​

​

This greater truth includes the fact that, to the returning Christ, we all have a feminine relationship: we are His bride. The implications of such language include the following: He is our protector; He initiates the relationship; He provides for our needs."

https://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=04-01-005-f

 

[Vixy]

A real man embraces who he is and doesn't care how a stranger views him.

A real man stands up for what he believes in, even if what he believes in isn't popular.

A real man has no need to oppress others because he's comfortable with himself.

A real man will help and protect those in need.

Interestingly enough those are traits of a real woman, too.

Exactly! My grandfather was like this. With the addition that if he found something you did poorly and could do better, he wasnt afraid to tell you and be harsch about it. He would always be there for me and even told me when I moved from home -If theres EVER anything you need, you can ALWAYS come back here! He kept his word on everything he said aswell. Only one time he didnt and he explained why. I understood. He was a man of knowledge and muscles (old bodybuilder) and although married, the women would still swirm.

There were whimpy men back then too, a few, not like now, and he despised them, telling us theyre not men, theyre poor exuces for men! In fact be beat up moms boyfriend bc he treated her badly. For me THAT a man! He protects his family frm any harm and would never let a woman turn him into an underdog. He stands up to his woman and for his believes!

With the garbage out there today..I'd rather be effin' alone. Not one of them is worth it. I think he would agree with me on that, he'd probably say I did the right thing, since there are no men left. He made a joke about one boyfriend I had, saying "You know why he wears those boots?" (Dr. Martens) "No?" "Its so he wont blow away" (The guy was extremely skinny) Already at first sight he knew that wasnt a man and it turned out he was right. That guy left me puking my guts out, alone in the middle of the night at a busstop. Imagine what could have happened.

 

[Vixy]

This video got demonetized by YouTube quite soon after it was published which may either a sign of how awful it is or the degree to which its message hit a nerve.

It probably hit a nerve, thats usually the reason.

 

[Mr.Grieves]

Don't get me wrong, there are absolutely a lot of really silly modern dudes out there, but it's not the traditional 'Man's men' ranting and railing against them online with this 'soyboy' nonsense. A traditional 'Man's man' wouldn't have the first idea what a 'soyboy' even is; he's too busy working.
This whole online movement of anti-SJW, anti-'Soyboy', anti-feminist, anti-immigrant, anti-Star Wars, anti-Miss Marvel movie cause 'OMG look at her dumb girl face!', anti-most everything and anything isn't about restoring or defending traditional masculinity or anything of the sort. It's for the most part a movement of angry, disenchanted young people- young men for the most part- who've been literally raised on memes, message-boards, and assorted 'comment' sections, and thus view and confront all issues with the same sneering, intense hostility that in the past was reserved for online anonymity: what I call the 'Troll-culture.'

Troll-culture is an increasingly dominant force in the western world today; it got Donald J. Trump elected I'm quite convinced, and allows his supporters to 'LOL!' and 'ROFL!' as he tells lies and makes statements that would have the support of any other president in any other era evaporating like piss in the Sahara. They don't care that he's an unmitigated boob, they love it in fact, because what a troll! Look at all the libtards, the femtards, the 'tards in general rage! Kekekek!

It's understandable to an extent... a predictable push-back against the culture being peddled/espoused by the media and the extremism finding its way into schools of liberal thought. It's bankrupt though; an utterly bankrupt culture for so many people to be investing so much time and energy in.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

Don't get me wrong, there are absolutely a lot of really silly modern dudes out there, but it's not the traditional 'Man's men' ranting and railing against them online with this 'soyboy' nonsense. A traditional 'Man's man' wouldn't have the first idea what a 'soyboy' even is; he's too busy working.
This whole online movement of anti-SJW, anti-'Soyboy', anti-feminist, anti-immigrant, anti-Star Wars, anti-Miss Marvel movie cause 'OMG look at her dumb girl face!', anti-most everything and anything isn't about restoring or defending traditional masculinity or anything of the sort. It's for the most part a movement of angry, disenchanted young people- young men for the most part- who've been literally raised on memes, message-boards, and assorted 'comment' sections, and thus view and confront all issues with the same sneering, intense hostility that in the past was reserved for online anonymity: what I call the 'Troll-culture.'

Troll-culture is an increasingly dominant force in the western world today; it got Donald J. Trump elected I'm quite convinced, and allows his supporters to 'LOL!' and 'ROFL!' as he tells lies and makes statements that would have the support of any other president in any other era evaporating like piss in the Sahara. They don't care that he's an unmitigated boob, they love it in fact, because what a troll! Look at all the libtards, the femtards, the 'tards in general rage! Kekekek!

It's understandable to an extent... a predictable push-back against the culture being peddled/espoused by the media and the extremism finding its way into schools of liberal thought. It's bankrupt though; an utterly bankrupt culture for so many people to be investing so much time and energy in.

Thanks @Mr.Grieves - I think that sometimes both the "push" and the "push-back" can be errors. I'm not in the US so I can see the country from the outside beginning to fracture and polarise. As each side defines itself against the other, they talk less sense and more hyperbole.

The reason for creating the thread was to ask what (if anything) people feel to be a positive vision of masculinity. There seems to be little consensus, some highly polarised views and a lot of presuppositions.

In a way, this is exactly what I expected to be the case. Sometimes not yet having the answer is still better than not asking the question at all.

 

[Vixy]

Don't get me wrong, there are absolutely a lot of really silly modern dudes out there, but it's not the traditional 'Man's men' ranting and railing against them online with this 'soyboy' nonsense. A traditional 'Man's man' wouldn't have the first idea what a 'soyboy' even is; he's too busy working.
This whole online movement of anti-SJW, anti-'Soyboy', anti-feminist, anti-immigrant, anti-Star Wars, anti-Miss Marvel movie cause 'OMG look at her dumb girl face!', anti-most everything and anything isn't about restoring or defending traditional masculinity or anything of the sort. It's for the most part a movement of angry, disenchanted young people- young men for the most part- who've been literally raised on memes, message-boards, and assorted 'comment' sections, and thus view and confront all issues with the same sneering, intense hostility that in the past was reserved for online anonymity: what I call the 'Troll-culture.'

Troll-culture is an increasingly dominant force in the western world today; it got Donald J. Trump elected I'm quite convinced, and allows his supporters to 'LOL!' and 'ROFL!' as he tells lies and makes statements that would have the support of any other president in any other era evaporating like piss in the Sahara. They don't care that he's an unmitigated boob, they love it in fact, because what a troll! Look at all the libtards, the femtards, the 'tards in general rage! Kekekek!

It's understandable to an extent... a predictable push-back against the culture being peddled/espoused by the media and the extremism finding its way into schools of liberal thought. It's bankrupt though; an utterly bankrupt culture for so many people to be investing so much time and energy in.

I disagree. I've been annoyed by these ridiculess guys since my teens. Its just that now more people are reacting.

 

[Mr.Grieves]

I've been annoyed by these ridiculess guys since my teens.

Sure, but are some ridiculous dudes and their gleeful unboxings worth the time and attention devoted to decrying and ridiculing them? They're certainly not competing with anyone; they're not stealing all the good unboxing jobs or challenging the male ideal. Perhaps you had a bad time dating one, but there's plenty of fish in the sea; no shortage of brawny factory or construction workers out there who better align with your expectations of a man.

Its just that now more people are reacting.

But why? I mean really, who cares? Are more people reacting in the hopes of bettering mankind? That's a laugh. Are they reacting because they worry about the health and happiness of these poor bearded sods? As if. Are they reacting because they're worried about the end of 'real men'? That's an excuse you often hear, but 'real men' aren't going anywhere so long as there are hard jobs to do, and there's plenty of hard jobs to do that aren't going anywhere. Lets be honest here: mockery is the real motivation. It feels good to ridicule someone you find annoying, particularly if you've a crowd to ridicule them with you. With the power of the interwebs ridicule and mockery become far-reaching 'memes', allowing everyone to parrot each-other, consume each-other's catch-phrases and insults and regurgitate them on command. Soyboy, SJW, 'NPC' is the newest one everyone's gleeing over, though I'm too tired of it all to even find out what that one means. This is the 'Troll-culture' I'm talking about. Millions of people investing their time and energy into the collective, substanceless mockery and ridicule of people who vaguely annoy them, to no particular end.

Yay, modern society..!

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I never click the "trending" tab on YouTube so I thought I might do an experiment.

This is a selection of what page #1 had for me.

Etc.

Ok - there was some football and a few songs put perhaps it is an indication. Fitness professionals say "you are what you eat"!

 

[Vixy]

Sure, but are some ridiculous dudes and their gleeful unboxings worth the time and attention devoted to decrying and ridiculing them? They're certainly not competing with anyone; they're not stealing all the good unboxing jobs or challenging the male ideal. Perhaps you had a bad time dating one, but there's plenty of fish in the sea; no shortage of brawny factory or construction workers out there who better align with your expectations of a man.

But why? I mean really, who cares? Are more people reacting in the hopes of bettering mankind? That's a laugh. Are they reacting because they worry about the health and happiness of these poor bearded sods? As if. Are they reacting because they're worried about the end of 'real men'? That's an excuse you often hear, but 'real men' aren't going anywhere so long as there are hard jobs to do, and there's plenty of hard jobs to do that aren't going anywhere. Lets be honest here: mockery is the real motivation. It feels good to ridicule someone you find annoying, particularly if you've a crowd to ridicule them with you. With the power of the interwebs ridicule and mockery become far-reaching 'memes', allowing everyone to parrot each-other, consume each-other's catch-phrases and insults and regurgitate them on command. Soyboy, SJW, 'NPC' is the newest one everyone's gleeing over, though I'm too tired of it all to even find out what that one means. This is the 'Troll-culture' I'm talking about. Millions of people investing their time and energy into the collective, substanceless mockery and ridicule of people who vaguely annoy them, to no particular end.

Yay, modern society..!

Dated ONE? Uhm... Yeeah. Try at least 50! I have REALLY tried!

I am saying there ARE nothing but soy boys around! Its impossible to find a man around here. I even looked at church, not bc I'm chasing guys bc I've decided to be alone bc of this, and guess what? The women at church have settled with soy boys. I REFUSE. I will NOT bear a fukn soy boy child and spend my life with a whimp for a husband. Noway! Especially not since I come from a family where I have been shown what a real man is so I know and see just how wrong this is, how the elite have destroyed the gendertraits by feminazi, bad foods and environmental toxins. You know, its so bad they're finding fish with both genders now. Maybe you'd like to date a girlboy but I have standards. I will NEVER adapt to this bullshit!

Is it so strange for you that I'm complaining about the death of men, from a womans perspective? Is it really so strange that I want a mans man and not a nintendo playing little boy? Boys doesnt turn me on bc I am a grown up. If I want to hang with a boy I can babysit but I dont wanna babysit my own partner.