Forever Light
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Thank you. You may interpret it however you wish.
But as for me, I choose to follow the instructions of Christ.
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But as for me, I choose to follow the instructions of Christ.
JoChris
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The apostles certainly knew Jesus and His teachings way better than you and this Jah writer.
They would have stopped the early church meeting publically if it was against Jesus' commandments. Paul cannot be blamed for them meeting together for prayer and worship in Acts chapter 2.
Forever Light
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Faith without works is DEAD. (Read James - the half brother of Jesus's Letter)
Christ will be your Judge.
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am The Way, the Truth, and the Life: NOT one man cometh unto the Father, EXCEPT by me.
We do not get to mark our own test and declare ourselves "already saved".
The Lord will mark our test (as above) and we will all be judged on our individual merits.
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." - Philippians 2:12
Forever Light
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Believe Christ.
Faith without works is DEAD:
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his WORKS.
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and ALL the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your WORKS.
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
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floss
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Faith = Salvation
Works = Rewards
You don't combine the two and trying to earn your way into heaven.
Romans 11:6King James Version (KJV)
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Forever Light
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Either you believe Christ, or you don't believe Christ.
It can't be both. It is either going to be one or the other.
The choice is yours to make.
floss
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did you even read the whole Matthew 16:27 or you just search for the bible verse that has the word "works"?
You quoted a verse that has NOTHING to do with salvation.
Matthew 16:27King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
You can earn wages/reward by serving/working for God.
You can’t earn nor lose your salvation.
Salvation by Faith Alone
_________________________
Rewards/Wages by Works
Separate these two and you will have the truth.
John 4:36King James Version (KJV)
36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
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Daciple
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@Forever Light
Noticed you didnt actually address anything I said nor any of the proof text I gave, can you answer me why you didnt? Instead you glossed over them and ignored what I said and the verses I used to either support the Fact that Jesus is God or to rebut your false doctrine, then tried to give me more proof text to answer that you somehow believe supports your position. I am always happy to address others proof text, but I always find it interesting that in these discussion most cant return the favor.
Matt 6:1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
4864 [e]
synagōgais
συναγωγαῖς
synagogues
Doesnt say Church in the Greek, but lets by pass your mistranslation for the moment, how does this mean NOT to ever go to Church? Jesus means what He says and He said dont give your alms openly while in "church" with the intent and purpose to have others notice it so they give you glory or props for giving so much to the "church". Its the same with pray dont pray in a manner where you hope to be heard and seen by others so they tell you how great of a prayer you give. Neither of these examples say anything at all about NOT going to Church. If we follow your logic concerning Jesus denouncing Church here all together then clearly He must be denouncing going into the Streets ever as well!! Better never go outside EVER. Clearly that is absurd, and so is the notion that this text has anything to do with Jesus telling us NOT to go to Church...
Is 33:22 For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king; he will save us.
Each time it says LORD in that verse, in the Hebrew it says YHWH, so it says YHWH is our Judge, YHWH is our Lawgiver, YHWH is our king, He (YHWH) will save us.
How can YHWH be Judge if Jesus is Judge by your own admission?
How can YHWH be King if Jesus is King?
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
For me to accept your position I have to reject that YHWH is Judge, or that YHWH is King, unless of course Jesus is YHWH, then YHWH is King, Lawgiver and Judge...
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Jesus is the Word, the Word is God, the Word was made Flesh. Very simple brother dont know why you just dont accept what the Bible tells you plainly...
Ex 33:11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Explain this verse, and I will explain how you dont understand the verses you have posted...
Also I listed quite alot of proof text that reject your ideology would you mind showing us how they fit into your ideology?
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Jesus wasnt a creation, He created all thing, there is only one being that can create all things and that is God Alone
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jesus is the Word, the Word is God and all things not some not most but all things were made by Jesus and not ANYTHING MADE without Him, that means He is apart from ALL Creation.
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Michael was scared to contend with the Devil and asked for the Lord to rebuke him. Jesus however isnt scared to rebuke the Devil, He did it when He was being tempted, He didnt call on the anyone, He did it all of Himself. He also didnt fear calling the Devil a liar and the Father of lies. Michael would never do such a thing, because he isnt God...
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Pretty clear verse here, the Angels have NOT been made to be over the world to come, however Jesus will put ALL THINGS under subjection in the World to come. Jesus can NOT be an Angel, He must be something else...
I listed others as well, wonder if you will address any of them this time...
Noticed you didnt actually address anything I said nor any of the proof text I gave, can you answer me why you didnt? Instead you glossed over them and ignored what I said and the verses I used to either support the Fact that Jesus is God or to rebut your false doctrine, then tried to give me more proof text to answer that you somehow believe supports your position. I am always happy to address others proof text, but I always find it interesting that in these discussion most cant return the favor.
Your text do nothing to prove that we shouldnt go to Church. First and foremost you choose to insert an English word into the text that isnt there, this is what the Word of God says:
Matt 6:1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
4864 [e]
synagōgais
συναγωγαῖς
synagogues
Doesnt say Church in the Greek, but lets by pass your mistranslation for the moment, how does this mean NOT to ever go to Church? Jesus means what He says and He said dont give your alms openly while in "church" with the intent and purpose to have others notice it so they give you glory or props for giving so much to the "church". Its the same with pray dont pray in a manner where you hope to be heard and seen by others so they tell you how great of a prayer you give. Neither of these examples say anything at all about NOT going to Church. If we follow your logic concerning Jesus denouncing Church here all together then clearly He must be denouncing going into the Streets ever as well!! Better never go outside EVER. Clearly that is absurd, and so is the notion that this text has anything to do with Jesus telling us NOT to go to Church...
According to the Old Testament, who is Judge?
Is 33:22 For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king; he will save us.
Each time it says LORD in that verse, in the Hebrew it says YHWH, so it says YHWH is our Judge, YHWH is our Lawgiver, YHWH is our king, He (YHWH) will save us.
How can YHWH be Judge if Jesus is Judge by your own admission?
How can YHWH be King if Jesus is King?
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
For me to accept your position I have to reject that YHWH is Judge, or that YHWH is King, unless of course Jesus is YHWH, then YHWH is King, Lawgiver and Judge...
You dont know anything about me brother, I learned what I wrote from years of independent study and guidance from the Holy Spirit. I would venture to say you didnt learn anything you know except some man on some website told you about it, in which case you are being rather hypocritical to judge people who learn doctrine from men in Churches...
Seriously? He literally said it a few verses above, Thomas called Him God, period. Why dont you address that instead of your strawman and logical fallacy of asking me to prove a negative or argument from ignorance. Just because John calls Him Son of God, or making the false premise of why didnt he just say God here doesnt negate the very clear fact that Thomas called Him God, and I can assure you if you are trying to make the attempt to say that Thomas is calling Him his Judge then you are now in the same position you would like to paint me into. Why didnt he just call Him his Judge? He called Him his God because that is who Jesus is, his God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Jesus is the Word, the Word is God, the Word was made Flesh. Very simple brother dont know why you just dont accept what the Bible tells you plainly...
No its not, I dont believe you truly comprehend what John is saying here. No man has seen God right?
Ex 33:11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Explain this verse, and I will explain how you dont understand the verses you have posted...
Also I listed quite alot of proof text that reject your ideology would you mind showing us how they fit into your ideology?
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Jesus wasnt a creation, He created all thing, there is only one being that can create all things and that is God Alone
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jesus is the Word, the Word is God and all things not some not most but all things were made by Jesus and not ANYTHING MADE without Him, that means He is apart from ALL Creation.
Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Michael was scared to contend with the Devil and asked for the Lord to rebuke him. Jesus however isnt scared to rebuke the Devil, He did it when He was being tempted, He didnt call on the anyone, He did it all of Himself. He also didnt fear calling the Devil a liar and the Father of lies. Michael would never do such a thing, because he isnt God...
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Pretty clear verse here, the Angels have NOT been made to be over the world to come, however Jesus will put ALL THINGS under subjection in the World to come. Jesus can NOT be an Angel, He must be something else...
I listed others as well, wonder if you will address any of them this time...
Forever Light
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They were a community in Acts, not a church.
The church later purposefully mistranslated the words "community" and "holy people" as "church" and "saints" in order to try and justify their existence.
The believers in Acts were a community (not a church) that were living together, with everything being shared in common (including money etc. - had all things in common) just like the disciples did before them.
It was NOT a church, that people went to once a week in order to be seen (as being churchgoers).
The Apostles were not putting up churches, they were building up and preaching in the communities.
1 Thessalonians
1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the community of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Christ Jesus: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our (adopted) Father, and the Lord Christ Jesus.
5:16 Rejoice evermore.
5:17 PRAY WITHOUT CEASING.
You cannot pray without ceasing (24/7) in a church, unless you plan to live in it and stay there 24/7.
What it means, is learning to talk to God in private, in your thoughts (telepathically) all of the time (24/7 and 365 days a year - without ceasing).
That was what Paul and the other Apostles were teaching to the various communities they visited, as they had all learned themselves previously from The Lord.
How it should work therefore, is that people should be getting together in their communities and help one another to make it better, with everyone praying in private (24/7).
llleopard
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Where is that fact from? Three? Kings? Did I miss that in the bible somewhere?
JoChris
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"Strange" that other non-JAH translations contradict that claim.
Cut and pasted from respected bible website www.biblegateway.com
KJV 1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians....
ESV Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians.....
NRSV Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians
If you can find a translation from biblegateway website which says "community" not "church", then please give the link.
Bible chapter and verse where Paul/ other apostles taught all prayer had to be silent please.
Forever Light
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Thank you for your reply. You made quite a lengthy post, and I had not been able to find any time to respond yet, but have done now. Please see more below.
What is the difference between them, please? (synagogues, churches, or mosques)
Jesus did not put up churches. Neither did the Apostles. Christ taught the community of believers out in the open fields, etc.
He did also go into their churches to teach, and as we can read when that happened, they absolutely HATED what He had to say to them.
Christ said to go and make disciples of all nations (not churches).
Because Father (YHWH) gave Judgement to The Son:
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Rev.12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer); and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out to the earth, and his angels (you - Luke 9:55) were cast out with him (Matthew 25:41).
Correct:
Rev. 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the Kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Understood. My intention was not to judge you, brother. If that is how it came across, then I do apologise.
Agreed, we should not judge one another and we should learn what we learn by independent study.
I grew up in a family that went to church though. I also later went to several different ones to see what they have to say, so I know how that works. The people who attend church are definitely having their ideas being fed to them and are influenced by the pastor/priest (or imam) there is no two ways about it. It is much worse when they then just accept what the teachers in the church tell them, instead of asking God privately (like Jesus said to do) and then being shown the Truth personally, through the Holy Spirit.
That is another reason why I no longer go to church and haven't done so in many years.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received from him abideth in you, and ye need NOT that any MAN teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is Truth, and is no lie, and even like it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Ok. How about this:
Exodus 7:1 And the "I AM" said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Thomas who had previously fallen into doubt, was repenting of his doubts and submitting again to Christ.
Please see Exodus 7:1 and John 5:22-23
Christ is God to us, because God sent Christ to us and gave us to Him.
It does not say anywhere though, that Christ is His (The) Father.
Jesus prayed to his Father (to his God and our God).
Christ is God to us, like Moses was god to pharaoh, because God (The Father) sent Him (John 5:22-23).
Our Lord (Christ) therefore has the Authority of God over us and therefore He will be the Judge over us, on The Last Day.
As above, yes. But He is The Son, not The Father.
The problem is if you believe that Jesus is God (The Father) then you believe that God died. And that brother, is not possible.
I believe the words we use to convey meaning, are not capable of describing these things completely. Therefore, we need to get our guidance from God directly, so He can explain it to us through the Holy Spirit.
Later on, we can read this about how The Law was given to Moses:
Acts 7:53 Who have received The Law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].
Hebrews 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] The Law? It was added BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSIONS, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
The Hebrew word "Elohim" is rendered everywhere in The Bible (as far as I know) as "God".
However, the word "Elohim" can also be used to refer to Angels according to Paul:
In Psalm 97:7 the word “gods” is Elohim and in Hebrews 1:6 Paul said it referred to angels.
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when He bringeth in the first incarnated into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
1:7 And unto the angels He saith, Who maketh His angels spirits (Beings), and His ministers a flame of fire (energy).
1:8 But unto the Son [He saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy Kingdom.
There is also this:
Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, Which hath made us meet to be sharers of the inheritance of the holy people in Light:
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the Kingdom of His dear Son:
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
1:16 For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for him:
1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
1:18 And he is the head of the body, the community: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;
1:20 And, making peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
5:31 Him hath God exalted with His right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Have done, as above.
If it is as you say, can you explain why Jesus made a point of it, to make the distinction between Himself and The Father throughout the Gospels, please?
And can you explain why it is written in Psalms:
110:1 <A Psalm of David.> The "I AM" said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
And this statement in 1 Corinthians, please?
15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Thank you,
Forever Light.
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Forever Light
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I think you may be able to see it should be "community" instead of church if you study the Greek.
JoChris
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I found a bible study website with Greek.
http://www.preceptaustin.org/1_thessalonians_11-4#1:1
Greek: Paulos kai Silouanos kai Timotheos te ekklesia Thessalonikeon en theo patri kai kurio Iesou Christo;charis humin kai eirene.
All translations show church, not community.
ekklésia: an assembly, a (religious) congregation
Original Word: ἐκκλησία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ekklésia
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-klay-see'-ah)
Short Definition: an assembly, congregation, church
Definition: an assembly, congregation, church; the Church, the whole body of Christian believers.
http://biblehub.com/greek/1577.htm
Forever Light
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The traditional view has always assumed that they were three kings. Probably because they brought three gifts that consisting of the three most expensive things that existed on the earth during that time. Only kings would be able to afford to have such gifts and give them, but other than that, the Bible doesn't say.
Most people have heard of that, but ok.
Internet search is your friend:
Three Kings - Wise Men from the East
https://www.thoughtco.com/three-kings-wise-men-from-the-east-701082
Forever Light
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Thank you. Have you looked at all at the opposing point of view? These people appear to have done so and they state:
...THE CORRECT MEANING OF "ECCLESIA"
Now, let's look at the word, "ecclesia". This Greek word appears in the New Testament approximately 115 times. That's just in this one grammatical form. It appears also in other forms. And in every instance, except three, it is wrongly translated as "church" in the King James Version. Those three exceptions are found in Acts 19:32, 39, 41. In these instances the translators rendered it "assembly" instead of "church." But, the Greek word is exactly the same as the other 112 entries where it was changed to "church" wrongly.
In Acts 19, "ecclesia" is a town council: a civil body in Ephesus. Thus, the translators were forced to abandon their fake translation in these three instances. Nonetheless, 112 times they changed it to "church." This fact has been covered-up under centuries of misuse and ignorance. The Greek word "ecclesia" is correctly defined as: "The called-out (ones)" [ECC = out; KALEO = call]. Thus, you can see how this word was used to indicate a civil body of select (called, elected) people.
According to the Encyclopedia Britannica:
In the New Testament, "ecclesia" (signifying convocation) is the only single word used for church. It (ecclesia) was the name given to the governmental assembly of the city of Athens,duly convoked (called out) by proper officers and possessing all political power including even juridical functions.
Obviously, in Greece an ecclesia had no resemblance to a church. An "ecclesia" was a civil assembly in Athens even before the writing of the New Testament. In the Oxford Universal English Dictionary (considered the standard for the English language) the word "ecclesia" is listed in its English form as used by our English forefathers. (Nowadays, only forms of the word appear - like, "ecclesiastical").
Quoting from the Oxford Universal English Dictionary on the word "ecclesia":
Ecclesia [mediaeval Latin, and Greek - from : SUMMONED] -A regularly convoked assembly, especially the general assembly of Athenians. Later, the regular word for church.
Thus, two of the most prestigious word resources in the English language confirm the fact that an "ecclesia" was originally a select civil body, summoned or convoked for a particular purpose. What, then, did the writers of the New Testament mean when they used the word "ecclesia" to describe a Christian body of people? We can assume that they intended to convey the original Greek meaning of the word: a body of Christians called out of the Roman and Judean system to come together into a separate civil community. It meant a politically autonomous body of Christians under no king but Jesus; under no other jurisdiction but that of Jesus. No man ruled them! Only Christ. And that was the reason these same Christians ran into trouble with kings and rulers; were arrested, crucified and martyred. They dropped Caesar as their King and took up Christ....
Might be interesting to study their complete article. The people who wrongly translated it as "church" would obviously then also try to redefine what ekklessia originally meant and try to push their point of view in the popular sources.
These people look like they did a thorough study about it, which I just found by doing an internet search:
http://www.aggressivechristianity.net/articles/ecclesia.htm
llleopard
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Assumed is not the same as fact.
Forever Light
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No, it is not. That is how most people know and would therefore be able to easily recognise the events of the story though, because that is the way they were taught it in Sunday school and children's bibles.
llleopard
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However there is no point using unsupported assumptions as the basis of any conversation regarding the Bible. If that is the quality of the material you are presenting, no-one will take it seriously on the forum. It's like discussing Noah's Ark and using one of those ridiculous cartoon pictures people draw with giraffes poking out the open window of a tiny tub. Start with some facts, and then discussion will be worth having
Daciple
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The difference would be the actual word being used, I pointed it out because you seem to be keen on using whatever version this JAH guy tells you to use, and I am showing to others the distinction between what he (or you IDK) and what the actual word is. Essentially there no difference other than the Religion associated with the words, Synagogues are usually Jewish, Mosques Muslim, Church Christian.
Actually they did, do you not consider Paul an Apostle? Revelations mentions 7 of them, most of the New Testaments is written to Churches. The building doesnt matter, the Church is the people in the building, where they meet matters not, its a community that comes together to worship the Lord, to love and support each other. Again if we are to take your point of contention you have with Churches as Jesus saying not to meet at Churches then He also said not to meet in the Streets or open air. That is nonsensical claim.
What does that matter? Jesus went to "Church" all the time, every Sabbath, every Holy Day, Jesus never missed a day to be with the congregation, dont you think we ought to do the same?
That makes no sense, your aversion to Church isnt supported in the Word of God. I agree we are to make disciples of all nations, by preaching the Gospel and by living as the Light of the World. A building in which people meet to worship God and hear the Word Preached is a method of how people are discipled...
I can tell you if you dont meet with others who are Born Again at a meeting place wherever it be regularly to praise the Lord and hear the Preached Gospel then you are doing a disservice to your walk and growth in Christ.
The Bible is absolutely clear we need to gather together (doesnt matter where) as a body of believers to worship God and support and love each other. Why are you opposed to this and why are you or this JAH person trying to teach against the Word of God?
Then YHWH is a liar to say He is the only Savior? That He is the King? That He is the only Judge?
Cant have YHWH say He is the only Savior and only Him be Savior then try and say an Angel is the actual Savior. Only YHWH is Savior, and Jesus is YHWH...
Please explain how that addresses that Jesus, not Michael is King? And how this proves Michael is YHWH the King...
So lets just get this out in the open here, are you this JAH person? If you are not this JAH person then you are literally after every single post telling everyone to go and read and be influenced and have the ideas fed to them by this JAH person. Or if its you, then by you. So please explain to me the difference of someone getting their ideas "fed" to them by a guy in a building or a guy on the internet?
Then you are suffering and doing a disservice to your faith and walk with Christ. I mean you are out here promoting lots of False Doctrine, it might do you well to go be in a Gospel Preaching Church and get under the Spirit and power of the Lord!
Again, are you this JAH guy? If not arent you just letting him teach you all sorts of things? If you are him arent you trying to teach everyone your ideology?
So why did God even tell Moses this?
If we read what happened before this statement we see that Moses was basically making excuses as to why he cant be the one to deliver the message to Pharaoh.
Ex 6:30 And Moses said before the Lord, Behold, I am of uncircumcised lips, and how shall Pharaoh hearken unto me?
So God says this is no excuse, but since you wont talk I will use you in the position of a god, in that you will have the Power and you will speak to Aaron and he will be the prophet or the mouthpiece of what you tell him.
Would you like to tell me God is afraid or wont speak to us, or humanity at all? Because He is there speaking to Moses right?
Your ideology doesnt justify why Thomas calls Jesus God, and if anything now you are adding even more confusion to the mix. So Jesus is God to us but isnt God? Really thats infinitely more hard to grasp than to say Jesus is God.
Right cuz Jesus isnt the Father, but YHWH is made up of the Father the Son and the Spirit. Do you know what a Theophany is? If so how do you marry the fact that God who is Spirit who can not be seen, has appeared to mankind, even speaking face to face with Moses?
Can the Father be seen? How can people see God? You say YHWH is the Father, so how can people see YHWH?
When have I said Jesus is The Father? I say Jesus is God, He is the Creator, there is only one Creator, I say Jesus is Savior there is only one Savior, I say Jesus is King, there is only one King, no matter how you dice it Jesus is God the Son as He is equal to and has all the exact attributes of God. Either you must deny Jesus as Creator, Savior, King, or the other verses that say He is the exact express image of the Father (aka He is identical to the Father in power position and authority) or you must admit Jesus is God. Its one or the other...
Ok so you have lost me here, are you trying to insinuate that Paul is quoting Psalm 97 in Hebrews 1?
Otherwise here is the Greek:
32 [e]
angelous
ἀγγέλους
angels
N-AMP
You also have misquoted or mis interpreted verse 6, the word you have incarnate is:
4416 [e]
prōtotokon
πρωτότοκον ,
firstborn
Adj-AMS
Also I dont follow how any of this has to do with the question I asked you, how can Moses see God? The Word that say LORD in the quote concerning Moses is:
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
3068 [e]
Yah·weh
יְהוָ֤ה
the LORD
Noun
So YHWH spoke to Moses, please walk me through your logic again, I do not follow what you are trying to say...
Ok brother just quoting different scripture doesnt negate anything I posted, if you believe so then speak as to how it changes the meaning of what I posted. I mean we can both go back and forth and just post scriptures, please at least give commentary as to how you believe whatever verses you post nullify the positions I have stated because all you have done is continually shown me verses that support my position...
No not really, maybe you can this time, the third time asking...
Because Jesus isnt the Father. Pretty simple, He is the Son who holds all the identical attributes of YHWH, He is Creator, Savior, King ect, as I have stated before Jesus must be God in order to possess these attributes. He is the visible manifestation of YHWH, He is who is always seen in the Old Testament, because The Father is Spirit and Spirit cant be seen by the natural eye. Otherwise explain Theophanies...
If you dont understand what I mean by Theophanies, here is the most blatant example of YHWH Himself appearing as a man to Abraham:
Gen 18:1 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.
26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
And to be crystal clear, everytime we read LORD in these verses it is the Word YHWH, every, single, time. So we have YHWH (who you say is ONLY the Father) manifesting Himself to Abraham as a man, speaking with Him, so please explain how we can say no one has ever seen God the Father face to face if we have Abraham literally speaking with Him face to face?
Well I am sure there are many reasons why it was written, one is to establish the Jesus is the Son of God:
Matt 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
As for the last verse I will have to answer that when I have more time I wrote this while I have been at work and I am about to leave and that verse deserves more time than allows at the moment...