Would only an evil god blame his own creations for the taint therein -- of his poor craftsmanship?

MoDc

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Born: 6 December 1878– Died: 5 March 1953

Psalm (19th book of the OT) Chapter 53 (KJV)

53 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.

3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.

5 There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.

6 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
What does Stalin have to do with anything? What does he say about atheism? Would it be fair to bring up the litany of Christian monsters over the past 2000 years? Why bring up Stalin when you could bring up Carl Sagan?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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What does Stalin have to do with anything? What does he say about atheism? Would it be fair to bring up the litany of Christian monsters over the past 2000 years? Why bring up Stalin when you could bring up Carl Sagan?
Because he famously declared “There is no God” and cited Evolution for his reasoning. As this saying and the year of Stalin’s death eerily resonated with the words of the fool in Psalm 53, who also famously declared in his heart “There is no God” it stuck in my mind!
 

UFOtofu

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From Genesis Chapter 1: ...
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Long time lurker here. Casual non-believer, curious of all philosophies. I hope it’s OK that my question will be off topic to the main thread.

From the passage above, it sounds like god wanted humans to eat plants. I read a Jewish vegan blog post some months ago that seemed to cover the same idea of intentions for vegetarian/plant diet in Eden.

Does anyone have references for any spiritual belief that are pro-meat/animal diet? Or even where in the Bible meat preparation began? Thanks in advance for your guidance.
 

DavidSon

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Long time lurker here. Casual non-believer, curious of all philosophies. I hope it’s OK that my question will be off topic to the main thread.

From the passage above, it sounds like god wanted humans to eat plants. I read a Jewish vegan blog post some months ago that seemed to cover the same idea of intentions for vegetarian/plant diet in Eden.

Does anyone have references for any spiritual belief that are pro-meat/animal diet? Or even where in the Bible meat preparation began? Thanks in advance for your guidance.
I read the stories for what they are. I don't go as far to say God "wanted" anything (this is literalism), only that in the tale of Genesis the first man and woman were vegetarian. As a veggie myself this makes me happy to know. :)

An interesting fact is the followers of James the Just (the brother of Jesus, the head of the first Church) were also vegetarians. There are aramaic texts that say the same thing, that Jesus and John the Baptist were both vegetarians.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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Long time lurker here. Casual non-believer, curious of all philosophies. I hope it’s OK that my question will be off topic to the main thread.

From the passage above, it sounds like god wanted humans to eat plants. I read a Jewish vegan blog post some months ago that seemed to cover the same idea of intentions for vegetarian/plant diet in Eden.

Does anyone have references for any spiritual belief that are pro-meat/animal diet? Or even where in the Bible meat preparation began? Thanks in advance for your guidance.
God told Noah to eat meat after the flood. Reading between the lines, in the context of a literal flood, many people have concluded that the nutritional value of a vegetarian only diet declined and so God told Noah what to do about it.

As I read it, meat eating is not God’s perfect long term will, and in the future, during the Millennium the Wolf will lie down with the Lamb, suggesting a change to the relationships between the creatures of God’s creation.
 

MoDc

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Because he famously declared “There is no God” and cited Evolution for his reasoning. As this saying and the year of Stalin’s death eerily resonated with the words of the fool in Psalm 53, who also famously declared in his heart “There is no God” it stuck in my mind!
Stalin was no intellectual genius, but he was no fool either, monster that he was. I’m still not sure what he has to do with the discussion though, as I said I could give innumerable examples of monsters who are theists.
 
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i always look at the original sin this way.
take a toddler, you an adult place a toddler near a dangerous road, you know that crossing the road is bad, but you dont tell the toddler the road is bad, just not to go there, the toddler is curious so they go over there, which is human nature that you gave them, you run over and punish the toddler without telling them why its bad or how its bad, to top it off you then punish the toddler for their life span and then also punish all their offspring and descendants for the rest of time, even though they did nothing wrong, their crime is being the blood relative of the toddler. does that seem fair? does this seem like the actions of a loving parent or god?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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When children are badly behaved, should they turn round and reprimand their parents for poor genetics? According to the OP, that seems to be the only reasonable response.
 

TagliatelliMonster

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When children are badly behaved, should they turn round and reprimand their parents for poor genetics? According to the OP, that seems to be the only reasonable response.
  1. Not preventing the death of dozens of healthy infants (if easily within your ability) is always evil
  2. God is all-powerful (within reason)
  3. Hurricanes often kill dozens of healthy infants
  4. God could easily prevent hurricanes from forming, growing in size, or traveling over land
  5. God's prevention of hurricanes would not violate the appearance of free will and his intervention could easily be indistinguishable from natural events
  6. God is evil because he easily could, but does nothing to prevent hurricanes that kill dozens of healthy infants.
In relation to god preventing hurricanes, do you agree that god is evil?
 

Red Sky at Morning

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  1. Not preventing the death of dozens of healthy infants (if easily within your ability) is always evil
  2. God is all-powerful (within reason)
  3. Hurricanes often kill dozens of healthy infants
  4. God could easily prevent hurricanes from forming, growing in size, or traveling over land
  5. God's prevention of hurricanes would not violate the appearance of free will and his intervention could easily be indistinguishable from natural events
  6. God is evil because he easily could, but does nothing to prevent hurricanes that kill dozens of healthy infants.
In relation to god preventing hurricanes, do you agree that god is evil?
Do you accept that the Bible teaches a fall that has impacted the stability of the physical world?
 

Lisa

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Good thread

God did warn the man..

Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭
The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

And the reason God made woman was because He was concerned for the man that He made..
Genesis‬ ‭2:18‬ ‭
Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.”
 

Lisa

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i always look at the original sin this way.
take a toddler, you an adult place a toddler near a dangerous road, you know that crossing the road is bad, but you dont tell the toddler the road is bad, just not to go there, the toddler is curious so they go over there, which is human nature that you gave them, you run over and punish the toddler without telling them why its bad or how its bad, to top it off you then punish the toddler for their life span and then also punish all their offspring and descendants for the rest of time, even though they did nothing wrong, their crime is being the blood relative of the toddler. does that seem fair? does this seem like the actions of a loving parent or god?
God placed two adults not toddlers in the garden and He told the man that if the man ate from a certain tree in the garden he would surely die. Why wouldn’t you believe the God who made you..made the world around you and gave you a mate to live your life with? Even when the woman ate..she ate first, he could have refused the fruit but he ate it as well.

Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭
The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

And all it took to convince the woman was this conversation with a liar..and notice the man said nothing but ate the fruit too..

Genesis‬ ‭3:1-6‬ ‭​
Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’ ” The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.


And it’s not like God made them and never hung out with them..
Genesis‬ ‭3:8-9‬ ‭
They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?””


God did give warning to what would happen if they are the fruit..so they shouldn’t have done it. That seemed to be the only rule in the garden. And God was right about not eating the fruit...everything changed when they did that. Their eyes were opened and they knew good from evil but because they disobeyed God..sin enters the world..how do you get rid of sin once it has come into the world? How can it not affect you or your offspring?

Now if you want to obey all the law of God you are more than welcome to try and do that...
God is loving..he said they would surely die..but they didn’t die right away..they were able to live their life, have kids..
 

Alanantic

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  1. Not preventing the death of dozens of healthy infants (if easily within your ability) is always evil
  2. God is all-powerful (within reason)
  3. Hurricanes often kill dozens of healthy infants
  4. God could easily prevent hurricanes from forming, growing in size, or traveling over land
  5. God's prevention of hurricanes would not violate the appearance of free will and his intervention could easily be indistinguishable from natural events
  6. God is evil because he easily could, but does nothing to prevent hurricanes that kill dozens of healthy infants.
In relation to god preventing hurricanes, do you agree that god is evil?
“Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn't care to, or he doesn't exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary." -- Sam Harris.
 

Lisa

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“Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn't care to, or he doesn't exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary." -- Sam Harris.
Or maybe He holds people personally responsible for the things that they do? They have a conscience..they know right from wrong.
 

Alanantic

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Or maybe He holds people personally responsible for the things that they do? They have a conscience..they know right from wrong.
How astute of you!

"All these sufferings are man-made and it is within man's power to put an end to them. God helps by facing man with the results of his actions and demanding that the balance should be restored. Karma is the law that works for righteousness; it is the healing hand of God." -- Nisargadatta
 

Lisa

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How astute of you!

"All these sufferings are man-made and it is within man's power to put an end to them. God helps by facing man with the results of his actions and demanding that the balance should be restored. Karma is the law that works for righteousness; it is the healing hand of God." -- Nisargadatta
The Bible tells us that we can’t put an end to our sins though. The only One that can help is with them is God Himself. That’s why self help rarely helps. That’s why other religions rarely help. It’s sin between us and God that is the real problem and God didn’t put us on this earth to do life without Him.
The real God has nothing to do with karma and everything to do with forgiveness of sins...and love..God loves us so much that He gave Himself as the living sacrifice for sins so that we could come back to Him.

Acts‬ ‭10:38-43‬ ‭​
You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.
 

TagliatelliMonster

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Do you accept that the Bible teaches a fall that has impacted the stability of the physical world?
God put the tree that contained the knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden. He didn't have to, but he did. Then, he ordered them not to eat from it. This is no different from putting a set of knives in a child's play room and then telling them not to touch it. Humans are like children compared to god, in fact some people say we're more like ants. So, just like I, as the one who knows better, would be held responsible when I leave knives within a child's reach, god, as the one who knows better, is responsible for putting something dangerous within his children's reach.
Then it gets worse:
"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. " -Genesis 3:1
If I not only leave a set of knives in a child's playroom, but also a talking animal that said things to try and convince them to touch the knives, then it's difficult to conclude anything other than that I wanted them to get hurt.
God created the concepts of good and evil, god created the talking snake that said the things that it said, god put the tree there when he could have just chosen not to create it, or at least left it up on the kitchen counter.
You may argue that Adam and Eve could have chosen not to disobey god, but remember they were going to live there for eternity and have lots of children. Is it really reasonable to expect them and all their unending numbers of children and grandchildren (also ew, incest) to be flawless for ALL of eternity? Don't you think that someone was bound to mess up at some point? And if you do think it's reasonable, then doesn't the fact that it took no time of at all for them to mess up make it feel like they really didn't stand much of a chance?
Besides, what actual harm did eating the fruit do besides make god angry? It gave them shame that they were naked, OK, but honestly being naked wasn't actually hurting them.
And if the nakedness was a metaphor of how they became aware of all the bad stuff they could do, then that also implies that being ignorant of that bad stuff didn't mean they were going to be free from doing it, it just meant that they were free from the knowledge they were doing it.
But if the nakedness just represents the idea that "shame" was now a thing they could feel, meaning that "evil" was now possible for them to experience, then god is the one who's at fault because remember, nothing can pop into existence by itself; it has to have a creator. So god is the one who created shame and all the other bad stuff that the fruit made them aware of.
And if it was his grand plan to leave it where they could reach it, then that circles back to what I said before about how he put it there expecting them to mess up, which means humanity truly did not stand a chance. Instead of just creating a system of "good go to heaven, bad go to hell" if that's what he wanted, he went through a whole thing of purposefully creating an excuse to get angry and punish them. It's not like he needed to give a reason for his good go to heaven, bad go to hell system.
And if it's simply just mysterious of why god isn't perfectly analogized by a parent who wants their children to get hurt, despite the fact that that is exactly what it appears to be in the stories we were given, then that's the exact type of non-answer I'd expect from a man made myth. This is supposed to be the TRUTH with a capital T, and yet the book we get that from leads to more questions than answers?
 

Tidal

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We are also told that god creates us all tainted..

Nah, babies are born innocent but most have that innocence hammered out of them by the "spiritual pollution" caused by bad parenting, useless teachers and the corrupt establishment..:)
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this...to keep oneself from being polluted by the world" (James 1:27)

"Jesus called a little child to him, and placed the child among them and he said: “unless you change and become like little children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea" (Matt 18:2-7)


 

Yellowbunzz tasty

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