Would a ban on all public religious representations and displays ease religious hatreds and violence?

DevaWolf

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#41
1. Paul's advice. I don't know how order equals despising women

2.Paul's advice again . Women can exerce prophesy :

"Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; And coming in that instant she gave thanks to the Lord, and spoke of Him to all those who looked for redemption in Jerusalem."
Luke 2:36‭, ‬38

3.OT + I don't see how it despise women as they were considered as daughters

4.OT + I don't see how it despise women

5.OT + I don't see how it depise women

6.(Corinthians): I don't see how hierarchy despise women as the man should love his wife like himself.

7.(Judges): It happened at a time where everyone did what they considered right in their own eyes. A bit like today when I hear about prostitution ring inside schools.
That wasn't approved by God.

8. The book of Ecclesiastes only contain 12 chapters. What book you took this from ?

You can go on.
So you don't see obvious problems with r*pe, slavery and abuse?

Interesting is all I can say.
 





DevaWolf

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#42
@Wigi basically covered everything but I'd like to add a couple of things (being a "self-hating" woman myself):
1 Timothy 2:11-15 >Yep this is Paul's personal advice but I don't see how different designations according to gender necessarily means one is inferior.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 >For background info, Paul was referencing the women in Corinth who were disturbing the services by speaking loudly and asking questions.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 >The man's punishment was that he had to take her as his wife -he lost the autonomy to select his spouse and mother of his heirs (given how significant lineage was in those times I think the historical context explains why this could be considered a punishment), he was meant to treat her as his wife, provide for her and not "put her away". Also, given the aforementioned historical context, the woman's virginity would be compromised which would automatically make her an unattractive choice for potential marriage for any other men. As disgusting as this was, that is the way things were back then in the vast majority of civilizations.

Exodus 21:7-8 >
You left out the crux of the passage: (continued directly)
"He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights.11And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money."

Here the bible deals with situations that already existed among the peoples of the area and put restrictions on them. Rather than order or "encourage" slavery as it is often misconstrued, God limited it and gave rights to such persons that they did not have in other countries. One of the problems people have with the Old Testament is the inability to separate the perfect will of God from the accommodations made for His fallen creatures in an effort to bring them to better ways. The first step is to address inequalities in the existing human practices. The express purpose of this passage was to deal with one ancient method of acquiring a bride in this patriarchal system. The slavery in Israel in this time was more like indentured servitude -a method often used as a repayment of debt than the purchase of a life. Once the period necessary for the debt to be paid was over, the indentured servant was free. This passage dealt specifically with a condition more likely with females under such contracts. The creditor was allowed to convert the "slavery" into a marriage. But just as it is today with people in power, sexual exploitation is possible. This did not encourage or approve the practice, but rather protected the rights of the victims of such abuse especially in comparison the practices of the tribes in close proximity to Israel at the time.

I'm gonna stop here.
I like your attempt at giving a reasonable explanation, I appreciate it.

However, as a non believer this explanation is hardly satisfactory because while it explains the contexts of these verses it does not dispel the fundamental issue that there are situations in which God condones these awful practices.

Time or place should not matter for an Eternal being with foresight, Gods law should be eternal too.
 





Wigi

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#43
So you don't see obvious problems with r*pe, slavery and abuse?

Interesting is all I can say.
The obvious problem that lead to r*pe, slavery and all forms of abuse is sin in mankind.
Many rules of the OT were accommodations to restrict all the evil that already existed in the first place.
If rules permit some things, people will find reasons to use them to satisfy their selfish needs.

If rules doesn't exist, some people will believe they have legitimate reasons to do whatever they want by the simple fact that it's not forbidden.

I'm honestly asking how non-religious would lead a nomadic tribe with a judicial system that could restrict evil while evil is the norm and you're surrounded by people who practice evil stuff.
 





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#44
1 Timothy 2:11-15 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent etc

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 ...women should remain silent in the churches

"If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silvers, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again."
Exodus 21: 7-8

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." (Leviticus 12:2)
"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)
"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

"Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go." (Judges 19:24-25)

"Give me any plague, but the plague of the heart: and any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman." (Eccles. 25:13)
"Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die." (Eccles. 25:22)
"If she go not as thou wouldest have her, cut her off from thy flesh, and give her a bill of divorce, and let her go." (Eccles. 25: 26)
"The whoredom of a woman may be known in her haughty looks and eyelids. If thy daughter be shameless, keep her in straitly, lest she abuse herself through overmuch liberty." (Eccles. 26:9-10)
"A silent and loving woman is a gift of the Lord: and there is nothing so much worth as a mind well instructed. A shamefaced and faithful woman is a double grace, and her continent mind cannot be valued." (Eccles. 26:14-15)
"A shameless woman shall be counted as a dog; but she that is shamefaced will fear the Lord." (Eccles.26:25)
"For from garments cometh a moth, and from women wickedness. Better is the churlishness of a man than a courteous woman, a woman, I say, which bringeth shame and reproach." (Eccles. 42:13-14)

Need I go on?
@JoChris there you go, of course the rationalizations and outright denials followed this post which is to be expected.

Thank you @DevaWolf
 





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#45
@JoChris there you go, of course the rationalizations and outright denials followed this post which is to be expected.

Thank you @DevaWolf
Were you ^^lying** or were you **severely mistaken **when you claimed that people with open eyes could see that tue God of the Bible detested women?
You try and deny and rationalize yourself out of **your claim** please.

P.S. i am pointing out what I believe to be obvious for lurkers here.
Different roles for women does not equal hate or detestation by God.
Harsh rules and nregulations in Old Testament were not moral commandments, they were legal ones.
 





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#46
If you are a Trinitarian he sure does. just look at the ten commandments as it shows women as a part of a man's possessions. Women were more like chattel. The O T also shows bride prices etc. This aside.

His church and bible sure discriminates against women. He will rule over you and do not suffer women to teach in church ets. being the worst offence.

I could get the quotes of the Jewish morning prayer that men say thanking god that they were not created as women and many quotes from your churches founders that call women everything from excrement to only being good for reproduction and if women happen to die from giving birth, too bad as that is what you were created to do.

Equality of women and gays is not a part of Christianity.

Regards
DL
That is not in the 10 Commandments-- women as a possession of men. Thanking God for not being a woman is not in the Torah-- maybe the Babylonian talmud, but that is not biblical.
 





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#47
Were you ^^lying** or were you **severely mistaken **when you claimed that people with open eyes could see that tue God of the Bible detested women?
You try and deny and rationalize yourself out of **your claim** please.

P.S. i am pointing out what I believe to be obvious for lurkers here.
Different roles for women does not equal hate or detestation by God.
Harsh rules and nregulations in Old Testament were not moral commandments, they were legal ones.
It is obvious that god hates women and it’s much deeper than Paul’s idiotic ramblings.



“Leviticus chapter 12 reminds us that women are unclean. After giving birth to a boy, a woman is considered unclean for seven days. However, if she has given birth to a girl, she is unclean for 33 days. Regardless, the concept that a woman is somehow unclean after giving birth is ludicrous. Of course, all religions fear the vagina, so it makes sense that the scribes (along with all men) went into a complete tizzy after childbirth, which very much relies upon the vagina.
Leviticus 19:20-22 teaches us that a man can r*pe his female slaves and be forgiven, though the slave must be punished. Likewise, Deuteronomy 22:28-29 reminds us that a man can r*pe a virgin, though he must marry her, and also pay her father 50 shekels.
The Bible is a weird, scary place. In case you needed further proof of that, along comes 1 Samuel 18:25-27 where Saul sells his daughter to David. Instead of wanting to be paid money for his daughter, Saul asks for ... are you ready ... ? Saul asks for the foreskins of 100 Philistine men.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.huffpost.com/entry/god-hates-women_b_56984/amp

So what if they were “legal” commandments? They were still given by God right? ( obviously they were not as everything in the Bible is an evil lie )

and to the poster above me, the Ten Commandments lists women along with other forms of property obviously meaning women are included with that property.
 





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#48
I like your attempt at giving a reasonable explanation, I appreciate it.

However, as a non believer this explanation is hardly satisfactory because while it explains the contexts of these verses it does not dispel the fundamental issue that there are situations in which God condones these awful practices.

Time or place should not matter for an Eternal being with foresight, Gods law should be eternal too.
To my understanding western culture legal systems are built upon JudeoChristian principles/ values.
Not exactly of course as there are no legal laws in New Testament.
 





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#50
It is obvious that god hates women and it’s much deeper than Paul’s idiotic ramblings.



“Leviticus chapter 12 reminds us that women are unclean. After giving birth to a boy, a woman is considered unclean for seven days. However, if she has given birth to a girl, she is unclean for 33 days. Regardless, the concept that a woman is somehow unclean after giving birth is ludicrous. Of course, all religions fear the vagina, so it makes sense that the scribes (along with all men) went into a complete tizzy after childbirth, which very much relies upon the vagina.
Leviticus 19:20-22 teaches us that a man can r*pe his female slaves and be forgiven, though the slave must be punished. Likewise, Deuteronomy 22:28-29 reminds us that a man can r*pe a virgin, though he must marry her, and also pay her father 50 shekels.
The Bible is a weird, scary place. In case you needed further proof of that, along comes 1 Samuel 18:25-27 where Saul sells his daughter to David. Instead of wanting to be paid money for his daughter, Saul asks for ... are you ready ... ? Saul asks for the foreskins of 100 Philistine men.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.huffpost.com/entry/god-hates-women_b_56984/amp

So what if they were “legal” commandments? They were still given by God right? ( obviously they were not as everything in the Bible is an evil lie )

and to the poster above me, the Ten Commandments lists women along with other forms of property obviously meaning women are included with that property.
The 10th commandment: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20:17&version=KJV

Do you really believe that rule is for MEN ONLY? Seriously? :D
 





Wigi

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#53
Leviticus 19:20-22 teaches us that a man can r*pe his female slaves and be forgiven, though the slave must be punished. Likewise, Deuteronomy 22:28-29 reminds us that a man can r*pe a virgin, though he must marry her, and also pay her father 50 shekels.
It's wrong and It doesn't work like that anyways.

The man and the woman need to be virgins (adultery and fornication not allowed) and the family need to accept the man.

If the girl was pledged to be married/is married/or refuse to be married with that man and see a judge, it's death penalty for the man most of the time.

"You shall not follow a crowd to do evil; nor shall you testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after many to pervert justice."
Exodus 23:2


Wrong. It’s primarily based on Greco-Roman systems.
Greco-Roman systems hasn't produced humans rights. The first humanists were all christians.
 





Wigi

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#55
Different roles is one thing, a subservient role akin to
Slavery is another. It is made entirely clear through out the Bible that women are merely tolerated as a necessary evil.
Not at all, Proverbs 31 is a chapter dedicated to Godly women.
 





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#56
...Which were incorporated into the Catholic/ Christian system that was developed later. What disagreed with it was discarded.
This is what I aas thinking of. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture
Lol nonsense the “justice” system under Catholicism and up until the Renaissance ( but even after that in some places ) was burning people at the stake after torturing confessions out of them.
 





Wigi

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#57
Lol nonsense the “justice” system under Catholicism and up until the Renaissance was burning people at the stake after torturing confessions out of them.
Crucifixion was part of the Roman justice system and they were fine with torture and Gladiator contests as death penalty.
 





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#59
Lol nonsense the “justice” system under Catholicism and up until the Renaissance ( but even after that in some places ) was burning people at the stake after torturing confessions out of them.
The Catholic church became very evil, there is good reason why Protestants called the Pope the antiChrist.
You know that already though, and us regulars know you know that already.

One thing USA did right was keeping church and state (and assume legal system?) separate. Weren't your laws still influenced by Christian values? Aren't your laws very different to non- Christian countries?
 





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#60
It's




Greco-Roman systems hasn't produced humans rights. The first humanists were all christians.
I don’t have any problems whatsoever with the ethical teachings of Christ, I do have a problem with the Old Testament and all the supernatural woo that surrounds Jesus as deity.

I would argue though that humanists originated from the enlightenment probably starting with Baruch Spinoza.