Worldwide Protests: What's going on?

Joined
May 14, 2017
Messages
899
Likes
1,855
#21
It is a dream or rather some people's dream that will never come true.
I'd rather fight for a dream that can never be, than be compliant to the waking nightmare that is.

Have you ever lived in a non-hierarchical community? It's definitely the dream, the best thing ultimately. But in practice it isn't easy, we all have too many neuroses and problems to be able to live like that harmoniously. A dose of spirituality helps, "no gods, no masters" can get pretty chaotic.
My family is actually non-hierarchical. Once I became of age, I was pretty much equal to my parents. It is hard on a large scale... But anything actually worth fighting for is hard. I will agree that a degree of spirituality is important, however. My entire view on anarchism is actually as much spiritual as it is political.

Did you or did you not say you told people what to do? That would be a leader...:rolleyes:
For like... Two seconds. Two seconds of a guidance does not a hierarchy make.
 





Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
8,458
Likes
4,046
#22
For like... Two seconds. Two seconds of a guidance does not a hierarchy make.
Guidance was still needed even if it was for 2 seconds which doesn’t help your theory..if no one said anything...would you all just stood around looking at each other..?
 





Joined
May 14, 2017
Messages
899
Likes
1,855
#23
Guidance was still needed even if it was for 2 seconds which doesn’t help your theory..if no one said anything...would you all just stood around looking at each other..?
Not at all? They would have started stacking it, which they didn't need to do. They just needed to throw in a pile, since there was enough room in the garage where it didn't need to be stocked. Thus the reason why I told them. But even if required specific instructions... Giving instructions is not the same as being a boss or leader. Because you know, again... Mutual cooperation.
 





Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
8,458
Likes
4,046
#24
Not at all? They would have started stacking it, which they didn't need to do. They just needed to throw in a pile, since there was enough room in the garage where it didn't need to be stocked. Thus the reason why I told them. But even if required specific instructions... Giving instructions is not the same as being a boss or leader. Because you know, again... Mutual cooperation.
You crack me up...still explaining what you wanted done which is why you told them what to do...you were the leader.
 





shankara

Established
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
363
Likes
478
#25
My family is actually non-hierarchical. Once I became of age, I was pretty much equal to my parents. It is hard on a large scale... But anything actually worth fighting for is hard. I will agree that a degree of spirituality is important, however. My entire view on anarchism is actually as much spiritual as it is political.
Interesting about your family. I've lived in a number of communities, there tends to be a problem when people can't be bothered to work or don't have any clear political ideas. In these times I think the simple act of living in community is a form of resistance.

You crack me up...still explaining what you wanted done which is why you told them what to do...you were the leader.
It wasn't like he was threatening them with punishment if they didn't do the work. The characteristic of hierarchy is that it permits violence from the higher against the lower but not from the lower against the higher.
 





Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
8,458
Likes
4,046
#26
It wasn't like he was threatening them with punishment if they didn't do the work. The characteristic of hierarchy is that it permits violence from the higher against the lower but not from the lower against the higher.
He was talking about how we don’t need leaders yet he was the leader telling people what they could do to help...seems a bit non sensical if you ask me. Then he says he didn’t have to say anything..which I said then people would be just standing around..or maybe they would have put things in a different spot then he wanted them at..either way they needed someone to be the leader to say this is where this stuff goes, so his premise that we don’t have to have leaders is false.
 





shankara

Established
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
363
Likes
478
#27
He was talking about how we don’t need leaders yet he was the leader telling people what they could do to help...seems a bit non sensical if you ask me. Then he says he didn’t have to say anything..which I said then people would be just standing around..or maybe they would have put things in a different spot then he wanted them at..either way they needed someone to be the leader to say this is where this stuff goes, so his premise that we don’t have to have leaders is false.
Self-evidently for organizational purposes some kind of direction is necessary otherwise nothing would get done. This is not the same thing as Hierarchy, which I already defined. For example in some of the communities I lived in, people would work and someone else would tell them the work they needed to do. Generally that person would share in the work, if they didn't have anything else to do, unlike bosses who just sit in air-conditioned offices giving orders. But nobody was the boss and community decisions were made by consensus.

Silly pseudo-logical criticisms trying to prove a point are useless. Hierarchy, i.e. our present social system, involves those at the top threatening those lower down with violence if they disobey orders, they have a monopoly on the 'legitimate' use of force.

A company run by it's workers, each of them having an equal share, would not be a hierarchy of this type even if (for purely organizational reasons) there were people directing other people.
 





Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
8,458
Likes
4,046
#28
Self-evidently for organizational purposes some kind of direction is necessary otherwise nothing would get done. This is not the same thing as Hierarchy, which I already defined. For example in some of the communities I lived in, people would work and someone else would tell them the work they needed to do. Generally that person would share in the work, if they didn't have anything else to do, unlike bosses who just sit in air-conditioned offices giving orders. But nobody was the boss and community decisions were made by consensus.

Silly pseudo-logical criticisms trying to prove a point are useless. Hierarchy, i.e. our present social system, involves those at the top threatening those lower down with violence if they disobey orders, they have a monopoly on the 'legitimate' use of force.

A company run by it's workers, each of them having an equal share, would not be a hierarchy of this type even if (for purely organizational reasons) there were people directing other people.
This is what @Corvus Metus said
Build a society with no bosses, leaders, or hierarchy.
He said no leaders but in his scenario he was clearly the leader telling people what they should do.
When I work with friends, there isn't a boss. A director, on occasion, when the job starts... But everyone is working. I had friends come over to help with the wood for winter... I told them what needs to be done and then I helped them with it. If I was a boss, I would have... You know, went inside while they worked.

And we don't need leaders. Leaders are the cause of every problem we have.
 





shankara

Established
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
363
Likes
478
#29
This is what @Corvus Metus said

He said no leaders but in his scenario he was clearly the leader telling people what they should do.
I imagine he was referring to political leaders, perhaps particularly in the sense of professional politicians, or in general those who claim to be the representatives of a community and individually exercise power over that community, taking the decision-making out of the hands of that community as a whole. This is quite different from, say, an expert in farming giving others instructions about how to grow food.

Anyway, I'll leave it up to him to clarify exactly what he meant.
 





Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
8,458
Likes
4,046
#30
I imagine he was referring to political leaders, perhaps particularly in the sense of professional politicians, or in general those who claim to be the representatives of a community and individually exercise power over that community, taking the decision-making out of the hands of that community as a whole. This is quite different from, say, an expert in farming giving others instructions about how to grow food.

Anyway, I'll leave it up to him to clarify exactly what he meant.
He said we don’t need leaders...when clearly we do need leaders, it’s too bad they can become corrupted which I think is the real problem...and maybe that’s what really bothers him since he was a leader, a benevolent one at that...

How do you really bring together people to make a decision for the whole? We all have so many different opinions as to how the world around us should work, how do you as a leader make that work? I think the system we have right now is probably the fairest...you take a majority opinion and make that law. However, definitely there are things that can go wrong..if your opinion isn’t the majority one comes to mind..but that is probably the fairest way to live in a society. And yes, there does have to be leaders otherwise everyone would be doing what seems right to them, which is really chaos isn’t it?
 





Joined
May 14, 2017
Messages
899
Likes
1,855
#31
You crack me up...still explaining what you wanted done which is why you told them what to do...you were the leader.
I'd like you to explain to me, how a brief discussion over how we're going to do a job, after which everyone works at their own pace with no further supervision is the same has being the a president, CEO, or even boss.

How do you really bring together people to make a decision for the whole? We all have so many different opinions as to how the world around us should work, how do you as a leader make that work?
If I was to "set up" a community, I'd find begin by building a society as devoid from hierarchy as much as humanly possible. Everyone would have a voice. Since, you know... If I started my own community, it would be with like minded people, who also want to create an anarchist commune. :p After that, I'd work towards self-sufficiency. Since you know, the community would be small.

I totally agree that it wouldn't work on a large scale... But that's the thing. Society needs to become self-sufficient in a small scale before we can make real change on a large scale.


I think the system we have right now is probably the fairest...you take a majority opinion and make that law. However, definitely there are things that can go wrong..if your opinion isn’t the majority one comes to mind..but that is probably the fairest way to live in a society. And yes, there does have to be leaders otherwise everyone would be doing what seems right to them, which is really chaos isn’t it?
We live in a pretty chaotic world with leaders, I think.
 





Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
8,458
Likes
4,046
#32
I'd like you to explain to me, how a brief discussion over how we're going to do a job, after which everyone works at their own pace with no further supervision is the same has being the a president, CEO, or even boss.



If I was to "set up" a community, I'd find begin by building a society as devoid from hierarchy as much as humanly possible. Everyone would have a voice. Since, you know... If I started my own community, it would be with like minded people, who also want to create an anarchist commune. :p After that, I'd work towards self-sufficiency. Since you know, the community would be small.

I totally agree that it wouldn't work on a large scale... But that's the thing. Society needs to become self-sufficient in a small scale before we can make real change on a large scale.




We live in a pretty chaotic world with leaders, I think.
Could they have worked without that brief discussion and why did you feel the need to discuss anything with them?

How would anything get done if everyone has a voice..and who’s voice do you go with to decide things? That’s the thing, its hard to decide what to eat for dinner between a family of 4...let alone how to run a society.
Lol! The community of one?

So, you think we live in a chaotic world and want to add anarchy to it because why not? I don’t quite get that but ok. I think instead of utopia you would find out that the laws that hold the world in place was needed.
 





Joined
May 14, 2017
Messages
899
Likes
1,855
#33
Could they have worked without that brief discussion and why did you feel the need to discuss anything with them?
The absolutely could have. But it also would have taken longer than it did.

How would anything get done if everyone has a voice..and who’s voice do you go with to decide things? That’s the thing, its hard to decide what to eat for dinner between a family of 4...let alone how to run a society.
Lol! The community of one?
Majority rules? Sort of like how you'd likely do it in a family of four... If you're getting take out and want Chinese, but your buddy John wasn't burgers, and Jim and Jenny want pizza... You're going to likely get pizza. Or make some sort of compromise by talking.

So, you think we live in a chaotic world and want to add anarchy to it because why not?
Our leaders are the one's causing chaos, so I don't see how giving power to the people can be any worse. Also, anarchism as a political philosophy isn't chaos; it's a lack of hierarchy. You don't need a hierarchy to have order.

I don’t quite get that but ok. I think instead of utopia you would find out that the laws that hold the world in place was needed.
Ah, laws. Because laws stop bad people from doing bad things. And keep otherwise good people into check. I'm sure that without laws, you'd be a murderer, right?
 





Joined
Sep 8, 2018
Messages
715
Likes
1,076
#35
They started the yellow vest movement in France for sure. We all know why: they wanna bring in martial law. But its creepy to actually see this and worldwide. However, as christians we come prepared "There will be riots, earhtquakes, floods and famines in one city after the other" And all of this while we see Jerusalems priests stomping in frustration to build the temple. The red heifer is found, the sacrifices of foods now upgraded to animals have begun, the temple is ready, even the chandelier outside the gate, all they need is the word "GO"

It is happening.
Well, originally, the "gilets jaunes" were authentic, but they got infiltrated just like every movement.

 





Joined
Sep 8, 2018
Messages
715
Likes
1,076
#36
" And all of this while we see Jerusalems priests stomping in frustration to build the temple. The red heifer is found, the sacrifices of foods now upgraded to animals have begun, the temple is ready, even the chandelier outside the gate, all they need is the word "GO"

It is happening.
Zionists ushering in the anti-christ and noahide laws??


 





Lisa

Superstar
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
8,458
Likes
4,046
#37
Ah, laws. Because laws stop bad people from doing bad things. And keep otherwise good people into check. I'm sure that without laws, you'd be a murderer, right?
Yes, laws, that help people know what is right and wrong and what the punishment will be for breaking the law..doesn’t mean you can’t break it just means that you’ll be punished if you do and is supposed to keep civility in the world.
 





Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Messages
677
Likes
1,253
#38
We have to beware how the corporate media paint these different episodes of political revolt. For example, in a country who's government is supported by US economic interests, the public are "rioters". In countries opposed to Western interventionist, the masses are "protesters."

Chile Protests: A Revolt Against Neoliberalism the Media Refuse to Acknowledge

“Neoliberalism was born in Chile and will die in Chile” has become a rallying cry for the movement. Yet few in the West are aware of the country’s tumultuous history as an experimental laboratory for free-market economics imposed on Chile by the United States."

"Corporate media is unlikely to give the protestors a fair hearing, given what their demands are and what they are struggling against, but that should not surprise or disappoint them. Those who witnessed how Occupy Wall Street, the anti-war demonstrations, the Global Climate Strike or the Sanders campaign were treated by the press know how it works. After all, as the jazz poet Gil Scott Heron told us, “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.”
 





Joined
Jul 27, 2017
Messages
1,576
Likes
3,255
#39
Chaos by design is nothing new. While things currently seem bad it is still a precursor of what is to come. Many of these conflicts are man-made by some much more evil and powerful than certain names mentioned. They are trying to narrow the funnel and make all go into the desired effect tunnel from emotional and psychological manipulation. People readily point to world leaders instead of those pulling the strings of the charade. Bring the world to the brink of destruction and conflict is a way of seeking global control. But, yes, it is a worrisome time and one where I personally think is a field of divide and choices which are about to come that will shape the next few decades. There is a tearing away of religion while forming a new age one at the same time. Some do not believe in good and evil but those of a spiritual nature are starting to see the divide. The future is theirs. For a while anyway. The spirit of the current age has never been more clear to see as the veil lifts.
People are easily manipulated through emotion and that narrative is causing the protest which lead to division amongst people. It’s here in the USA too. When you hear stories about the alt left vs the alt right —- that right their is trying to pull in more people to take sides. Sad times
 





Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
4,115
Likes
5,176
#40
I personally feel the worldwide civil unrest now unfolding is a result of social engineering. I don't think it's incidental that today we have people uprising against "the system" in numerous countries. It was meant to be this way.

When you have two of the most powerful men on earth being Trump and Johnson who in reality should have no more responsibility than a box of crayons who openly lie to their public then there is going to be some kick back. But we've all heard that old saying out of chaos comes order....well this is the begininng of the chaos.

Religion and politics are now in the process of being systematically dismantled.

I think it's more than coincidental that both of these tracks were released at the same time. One for the American market and the other for the British/European market. Both appear to be forecasting today's very events.


It's been planned for a long, long time. But yeah... there is significance to those things. It's interesting, the biblical references frequently used in songs-- though I doubt many listeners are even aware.

This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina(i), and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles (living word) to give unto us: To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, Saying unto Aaron,
Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we (know) not what is become of him...
Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven...
ACTS 7:35-40,42
(LINK TO CHAPTER, TOP OF PARAGRAPH)