Why there are so many Christian sects?

Etagloc

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#22
[/COLOR]
Of course I don't believe in the Quran.
You should believe in the Quran. It is the word of God.

The books of the Bible have been tampered with. Read Misquoting Jesus (PBUH) by Bart Ehrman. The books of the Bible have been altered.
 





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#23
Hey Todd,You can take your interpretations and teaching up with the Lord At the Judgment .
Since my beliefs are based solely on what Jesus said I will not have anything to “take up” with him at the judgement. I hope to hear Jesus say to me “take up your inheritance. When you did it to the least of these you did it unto me”. (Matthew 25:31-46).

You on the other hand will have to “take up” your disregard for the Torah and all your beliefs based on Paul’s writing with Lord. I hope that goes well for you. Do you think Paul will be there, ready to advocate for you?
 





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#24
Non judgemental question. Would you consider yourself a Judaizer?
No I do not. A Judaizer is someone who advocates following Jewish laws and customs. I have no interest in “Jewish” laws or customs, only God’s perfect guidance and instruction (the Torah).

The Ten Commandments (as intrepretated by Christ) and the observance of the feasts of Israel being the foundation of God’s perfect guidance and instruction.

I am what is called a sojourner in the OT , so the portions of Torah that applied to the sojourner are applicable for me today.
 





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#25
You should believe in the Quran. It is the word of God.

The books of the Bible have been tampered with. Read Misquoting Jesus (PBUH) by Bart Ehrman. The books of the Bible have been altered.
The Liberals LOVE Ehrman.
No I do not. A Judaizer is someone who advocates following Jewish laws and customs. I have no interest in “Jewish” laws or customs, only God’s perfect guidance and instruction (the Torah).

The Ten Commandments (as intrepretated by Christ) and the observance of the feasts of Israel being the foundation of God’s perfect guidance and instruction.

I am what is called a sojourner in the OT , so the portions of Torah that applied to the sojourner are applicable for me today.
So, yes.
 





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#26
True Unity

Christ prayed for unity. But what type of unity did He have in mind?

Word-Based Unity

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one" (John 17:22).

This is not unity of the world through compromise and tolerance. Rather, Jesus advocated unity in His Word:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword" (Matthew 10:34).

Jesus did not condone physical violence, so the sword He had in mind was “the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God” (Ephesians 6:17). The spiritual battle to be fought is to be the battle against the devil. The battle is for our salvation.

It is the devil's desire to ensure that we never see heaven. The Bible calls him the father of lies. He is the designer of deception. If we don't understand the Word rightly, we can fall into the devil's snares. He has multiple paths to destruction. Many of the paths look good and safe, otherwise we would never go down them. Satan doesn't care if we go to church or even if we claim to be Christian.

Even Christians can be deceived. There are many Christians who are Christians in name only whose lives belie their declaration and who are as deceived as the one that doesn't know God.

"Take heed that no man deceive you...For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matthew 24:4,24).

The Word is our sword against the devil. With it we can be fortified and strengthened to withstand him. When we read the Bible and ask the Holy Spirit to lead us as we read, and have a sincere heart that is willing to be changed by the Word we read, then we are walking in the path that leads towards eternal life. Read some tips on studying the Scriptures.

But if the Word is being discarded, ignored, belittled, or undermined, or even if we pick and choose only the things in the Bible we like to read and want the words to say what we want them to say, our defense against the wiles of the devil is jeopardized. With this in mind, we can take a fresh look at Christ’s prayer for unity. Jesus is clearly not praying for world unity but for Word-based unity:

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest Me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them Me; and they have kept thy word. I pray for them. I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given Me, for they are thine. I have given them thy Word, and the world hath hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth. Thy Word is truth" (John 17:6, 9, 14, 17).

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is beautifully simple, but it does require that we surrender our hearts to His sanctifying power. There can only be one Jesus and He is the Word made flesh. The true can only be separated from the false on the basis of the Word.

Because the Bible is the key ingredient to true unity, this unity will also produce results that are in line with Biblical truths:

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for the blessed hope, and the glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works" (Titus 2:11-14).

God wants to use His people. But this requires us to do more than believe in Him. We need to earnestly confess our sins and come up to the standard of the Word without compromising to the standards of the world.

Let us follow Christ's example. As we unite in humility and meekness, where there are wrongs these will need to be corrected. While we support and sustain each other, we will be able to deal with the erring in a gentle manner (Ephesians 4:15). God can and will use an obedient community of believers that live up to the light that He has given them – those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus (Revelation 12:7).

True Christian unity is Word-based. Jesus prayed, “I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world…Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” (John 17:14,17).

True unity is not about emotions and reckless inclusion, but is based on the Bible alone, which means that sometimes a Bible only attitude will cause friction. Those that prefer a smorgasbord religion, where they pick and choose beliefs that suit their comfort level or their personal agendas will not want a Sola Scriptura basis. This is often manifested as disdain, mockery, or hatred towards those striving to make their lives in line with what they find in the Word of God.

In light of this, how are we to interpret the drive towards Christian unity in the ecumenical movement and the wider goal of religions culminating in one world religion? Can all religions really be one? If every religion believes whatever they want, that directly affects the existence of truth. They can't all be true, can they? If so, then truth is just an opinion and nothing more.

https://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception-unity_true_Word-based.
 





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#27
No offense but this whole discussion kind of highlights the problems I was talking about. I was born Lutheran and even though my family wasn't religious, I learnt religion and it's history in school. I have also always been interested in religions. But still all this makes me confused. The basic message: "believe in Jesus as your personal savior and you are saved" is simple but it doesn't seem to be enough. And people don't agree what then is enough. What are the rules you are supposed to follow. How can you claim that you know the truth if it's difficult to find even two people who agree about something?

Etagloc has an advantage in this discussion because he is the only one here who is trying to convince people about the truth of Quran. At least his message seems coherent. Of course there are different views within Islam but they are somehow less discussed than the differences of Christianity.
 





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#28
No offense but this whole discussion kind of highlights the problems I was talking about. I was born Lutheran and even though my family wasn't religious, I learnt religion and it's history in school. I have also always been interested in religions. But still all this makes me confused. The basic message: "believe in Jesus as your personal savior and you are saved" is simple but it doesn't seem to be enough. And people don't agree what then is enough. What are the rules you are supposed to follow. How can you claim that you know the truth if it's difficult to find even two people who agree about something?

Etagloc has an advantage in this discussion because he is the only one here who is trying to convince people about the truth of Quran. At least his message seems coherent. Of course there are different views within Islam but they are somehow less discussed than the differences of Christianity.
1 Corinthians 15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

This is often cited as the earliest creed. Those who reject it's claims are not Christians, those who believe are. There may be a lot of debate over what constitutes the difference between a "sect" and a denomination. For those interested, there is a lot of information on these topics at:-

https://carm.org/what-makes-church-or-group-non-christian

As to the general question, given that we are in a spiritual war, is it really that surprising that such warped and counterfeit "Christianities" exist? Would you really get many people trying to counterfeit a fake? Lack of Islamic cults is not automatically an endorsement ;-)

The attempt to confuse the Deity of Christ (which involves The Trinity) the Resurrection, and salvation by Grace seem to be the main lines of attack. As these are implicit in the creed from 1 Corinthians 15 it appears that this is where the battle lines are drawn. It is no coincidence that the lines of attack on forums like this one are often focussed on battling against those key doctrines.
 





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#30
Since my beliefs are based solely on what Jesus said I will not have anything to “take up” with him at the judgement. I hope to hear Jesus say to me “take up your inheritance. When you did it to the least of these you did it unto me”. (Matthew 25:31-46).

You on the other hand will have to “take up” your disregard for the Torah and all your beliefs based on Paul’s writing with Lord. I hope that goes well for you. Do you think Paul will be there, ready to advocate for you?
What does the concept of "rightly dividing" mean to you? I think it has been much confused with "Acts 28 Dispensationalism" but there idefinitely appears to be a right and a wrong way to understand scriptural application.
 





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#31
No offense but this whole discussion kind of highlights the problems I was talking about. I was born Lutheran and even though my family wasn't religious, I learnt religion and it's history in school. I have also always been interested in religions. But still all this makes me confused. The basic message: "believe in Jesus as your personal savior and you are saved" is simple but it doesn't seem to be enough. And people don't agree what then is enough. What are the rules you are supposed to follow. How can you claim that you know the truth if it's difficult to find even two people who agree about something?

Etagloc has an advantage in this discussion because he is the only one here who is trying to convince people about the truth of Quran. At least his message seems coherent. Of course there are different views within Islam but they are somehow less discussed than the differences of Christianity.
What are you seeking in even asking these questions here? There's plenty of Christian forums that could address all these question.

VC isn't the place to get your biblical or doctrinal knowledge from and you don't know who might be aiming to lead you astray. We've had people like you come on here and ask these questions, confuse themselves, and because the Muslims aren't arguing over doctrine or highlighting biblical 'discrepancies' people will revert to Islam.

If you don't know your bible this isn't the place and that is what a good church or at the least a Christian oriented forum is for. You won't find a clear answer here and what you're asking demonstrates you don't know your bible well and people like to take advantage of that ignorance on this forum.
 





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#32
What are you seeking in even asking these questions here? There's plenty of Christian forums that could address all these question.

VC isn't the place to get your biblical or doctrinal knowledge from and you don't know who might be aiming to lead you astray. We've had people like you come on here and ask these questions, confuse themselves, and because the Muslims aren't arguing over doctrine or highlighting biblical 'discrepancies' people will revert to Islam.

If you don't know your bible this isn't the place and that is what a good church or at the least a Christian oriented forum is for. You won't find a clear answer here and what you're asking demonstrates you don't know your bible well and people like to take advantage of that ignorance on this forum.
The spiritual equivalent....

 





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#33
What does the concept of "rightly dividing" mean to you? I think it has been much confused with "Acts 28 Dispensationalism" but there idefinitely appears to be a right and a wrong way to understand scriptural application.
That's a loaded question for someone who questions the inspriation of Paul isn't it? LOL!

15 years ago if you asked me that, I likely would have answered with something along the line of "understanding the intent and context of the original author, and interpreting passages of the Bible with other passages of the Bible to gain a cohesive, unified understanding" and then probably said something else along the lines of "if the Bible appears to contradict itself, then it's really that our understanding is not correct." Of course this mentality will have the logical and analytical mind spinning in circles if we suppose that everything written in the Bible is truly the word of God.

On the other hand, if you follow the example of the person who actually wrote the phrase "rightly dividing", you would do just the opposite. Paul himself misquoted and used OT verses out of context to support his revelations. Paul seems to have very literal regard for the original context or intent of OT passages and seemingly twisted multiple verses to support the mystical revelations he supposedly receieved from Christ himself. If anyone did that today, most Christians would immediately start crying hersey and false teacher.

Paul also had little regard or need for quoting Christ in the flesh directly (the soul exception being his quoting of Christ words to water down the passover feast, which in turn provided justification for the RCC to change the times of God by replacing the passover feast with the "sacrement of Holy Communion"). Paul never bothered to learn from the disciples what Jesus taught in the flesh. He simply trusted what his "mystical" Jesus revealed to him. In that sense Paul fails the test given in 1 John 4:2 of acknowledging Christ in the flesh. Paul places all his trust and emphasis on his mystical "Christ" rather than Christ in the flesh.

It's really no surprise then, that using bible verses out of context to support ones denominational doctrine. theology or dogma is such an epedemic in the "Pauline" church.
 





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#34
Jesus (PBUH) was a Prophet.... I even have a video I can show you insha'Allah where a pastor accidentally has a slip of the tongue and accidentally admits Jesus (PBUH) was a Prophet.... in fact, Christians often slip and accidentally admit Jesus (PBUH) was a Prophet....
A pastor or Christians accidentally admitting that Jesus was a prophet ?

What kind of an argument is that ? A pastor said that Jesus was a prophet and so Jesus must be a prophet ?

A pastor ? A hired hand ! A hireling who would sell his grandmother for a buck said Jesus was a prophet ?

Oh guess Jesus must be a prophet since a pastor said it right ?

This is the kind of logic and reason Muslims pride themselves it... when their not busy stabbing or ramming someone down with a car.
 





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#35
That's a loaded question for someone who questions the inspriation of Paul isn't it? LOL!

15 years ago if you asked me that, I likely would have answered with something along the line of "understanding the intent and context of the original author, and interpreting passages of the Bible with other passages of the Bible to gain a cohesive, unified understanding" and then probably said something else along the lines of "if the Bible appears to contradict itself, then it's really that our understanding is not correct." Of course this mentality will have the logical and analytical mind spinning in circles if we suppose that everything written in the Bible is truly the word of God.

On the other hand, if you follow the example of the person who actually wrote the phrase "rightly dividing", you would do just the opposite. Paul himself misquoted and used OT verses out of context to support his revelations. Paul seems to have very literal regard for the original context or intent of OT passages and seemingly twisted multiple verses to support the mystical revelations he supposedly receieved from Christ himself. If anyone did that today, most Christians would immediately start crying hersey and false teacher.

Paul also had little regard or need for quoting Christ in the flesh directly (the soul exception being his quoting of Christ words to water down the passover feast, which in turn provided justification for the RCC to change the times of God by replacing the passover feast with the "sacrement of Holy Communion"). Paul never bothered to learn from the disciples what Jesus taught in the flesh. He simply trusted what his "mystical" Jesus revealed to him. In that sense Paul fails the test given in 1 John 4:2 of acknowledging Christ in the flesh. Paul places all his trust and emphasis on his mystical "Christ" rather than Christ in the flesh.

It's really no surprise then, that using bible verses out of context to support ones denominational doctrine. theology or dogma is such an epedemic in the "Pauline" church.
Might I politely suggest that doctrine is rather like interior design. Where there is something fixed (like a pillar in a room) you need to design around it.

I understand in your view that "Universal Reconciliation" is one of those fixed elements. This will lead you to structure your acceptance of Biblical positions through that understanding. I can't help but think that the NT without Paul would be rather like a ham and cheese sandwich without the ham, but that's just me ;-)
 





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#36
What are you seeking in even asking these questions here? There's plenty of Christian forums that could address all these question.

VC isn't the place to get your biblical or doctrinal knowledge from and you don't know who might be aiming to lead you astray. We've had people like you come on here and ask these questions, confuse themselves, and because the Muslims aren't arguing over doctrine or highlighting biblical 'discrepancies' people will revert to Islam.

If you don't know your bible this isn't the place and that is what a good church or at the least a Christian oriented forum is for. You won't find a clear answer here and what you're asking demonstrates you don't know your bible well and people like to take advantage of that ignorance on this forum.
What are you talking about ?

This is the place for someone who wants the Scriptures opened up to them and i even have my very own thread here. So i guess you have not taken advantage of that since you complain about the lack of biblical or doctrinal knowledge on the forum.

You are like someone sitting in a pond of fish and complaining about hunger.
 





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#37
You should believe in the Quran. It is the word of God.

The books of the Bible have been tampered with. Read Misquoting Jesus (PBUH) by Bart Ehrman. The books of the Bible have been altered.
So you believe Man over God then...Problems is, according to your post....You do not know the difference. If you only knew, you would mourn because of your deception.
 





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#38
What are you talking about ?

This is the place for someone who wants the Scriptures opened up to them and i even have my very own thread here. So i guess you have not taken advantage of that since you complain about the lack of biblical or doctrinal knowledge on the forum.

You are like someone sitting in a pond of fish and complaining about hunger.
On the other hand, @Damien50 makes the very good point of saying "VC isn't the place to get your biblical or doctrinal knowledge from".

I completely agree with that. If you were to try to grow in your understanding here without having your own private reading and fellowship, you would soon come unstuck!
 





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#39
What are you talking about ?

This is the place for someone who wants the Scriptures opened up to them and i even have my very own thread here. So i guess you have not taken advantage of that since you complain about the lack of biblical or doctrinal knowledge on the forum.

You are like someone sitting in a pond of fish and complaining about hunger.
This isn't the place at all. This sub forum can be confusing for people. I've watched posters go from religion to religion to sometimes nothing because this wasn't a positive environment. When I wanted to learn about Islam, I went to a mosque, when I wanted to learn the bible and God, I went to a church. This sub forum is toxic with one thread praising God another claiming Zeitgeist to be true and so on. Why would I want to subject anyone to spiritual confusion that is possibly genuinely seeking help? I don't and that is why I said what I said.

I've seen your thread but if I was someone else, why should I trust you over Etagloc? Why should I trust Red over Desert? When someone doesn't know they are vulnerable and this isn't where people should be trying to figure out the basics.

I hunger nor I thirst so long as I walk with the Lord :)
 





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#40
On the other hand, @Damien50 makes the very good point of saying "VC isn't the place to get your biblical or doctrinal knowledge from".

I completely agree with that. If you were to try to grow in your understanding here without having your own private reading and fellowship, you would soon come unstuck!
I'm not so arrogant to assume I can teach or even teach in this environment when verses like the below come to mind. People need fellowship and it isn't on VC

2 Timothy 2:23-26 KJV
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. [24] And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men , apt to teach, patient, [25] In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; [26] And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.