Why has Feminism caused so many single men to go MGTOW since we keep meeting very mean and nasty women all the time?

ishigo

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#81
If I dressed myself like teletubbies to go at school or at work, my chance of getting ridiculed or bullied increases no matter how much I think it shouldn't matter to them.

And nobody would feel ashamed to tell that I shouldn't dress myself like that because it gives a bad reputation and puts me in a lot of trouble.

I can either concede that I should dress myself more decently or I can say someone is trying to oppress me yada yada ect.
wow. So you're really saying women who dress unmodestly to your standards are puting themselves in danger. But I thought men weren't socialized to be rapists and r*pe culture was totally made up.
oprah gif.gif
 





Lisa

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#82
wow. So you're really saying women who dress unmodestly to your standards are puting themselves in danger. But I thought men weren't socialized to be rapists and r*pe culture was totally made up.
View attachment 26618
I think its common sense..that you wouldn’t want a man to get the wrong idea from how you dress..I don’t see that as being r*pe culture at all. If you dress like you’re loose and easy, a man will think you are.
 





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#83
If covering oneself is shame then you must be a nudist right? Because where do you draw that line of shame at? People don’t have to cover themselves UNTIL nudity or are you saying up to nudity? And based on what?
The problem is, hardly anyone has any awareness of the effects of sexual intimacy, so it is treated flippantly as if there are no spiritually bonding effects. If you're not willing to look at your own shame and remove the associated inner guilt, you should not even be removing your clothes in front of anyone else let alone engaging in sexual activity until you have worked on yourself and grown out of these conditioned attitudes that encourage holding onto shame and self-guilt.
All I was saying was that when men were in control look at how women dressed. When women gained the “freedom” they sought look at how they dress/dressed. Now they’re complaining about being overly sexualized. Who's to blame for that? Still haven seen an answer. As for your "energy entities", historically speaking we havent seen many of the fully functioning societies worldwide that allowed for men to have multiple wives that feared them.
Yet, in the warmest climates women have always bared a lot of skin however the cultures generally do not fetishize the female body nearly as much. This is a very misogynist attitude you seem to have. You have been conditioned to automatically associate bare skin with sexual intimacy, so you selfishly want to control women's choice of clothing and expect them to cover up on your behalf whether they are comfortable or not. The very same cultural conditioning is responsible for women not dressing appropriately for colder weather because they're going to a night club and trying to get a man's attention. It's a double-edged sword.
 





Wigi

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#84
But I'd hardly compare bullying someone or theft to raping another human being. It just feels like a bad comparison unless you think a bully or thief is on the same plane as a rapist.
They all make victims and I don't think some victims are less important.

But it was simply a way to illustrate the fact that you're increasing your chance of becoming a victim by doing something as innocent as disguising yourself on everyday life.


So you're really saying women who dress unmodestly to your standards are puting themselves in danger.
For the example of women, I'm saying that the way she dresses herself could increase or diminish her chance of catching the eye of a drunk pig.
Then the vulnerability of that woman decides whether it will lead to a crime or not.

But I thought men weren't socialized to be rapists and r*pe culture was totally made up.
None of that exist obviously and I'll say something even more strange for you:

I think nobody is socialized to become thieves despite the number of theft and there is no theft culture either despite the fact that I increase my chance of getting my wallet or my phone robbed if I walk alone late at night.

All there is, it's individuals taking advantage of situations where people look vulnerable/weak and it happens because humans aren't inherently benevolent. Predatory behaviors exist and can be triggered by many factors including the way you look.
 





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#85
Satements like this are actually what objectify women. You wouldn't tell a guy who goes shirtless "well don't be surprised if you get raped or assaulted".
Let’s change the scenario. Let’s say a smaller man walked around jail shirtless with his pants sagging. If he was raped I would definitely turn to him and point out how his demeanor may have increased his chances of being raped. That’s called holding yourself accountable. Just as if I went to a third world country with jewelry on, I can expect to eventually get robbed. I wouldn’t turn and say “But I should be able to wear what I want!” because that’s not reality.
 





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#86
I'm not for multiple sex partners for either gender if I'm giving my personal opinion. I'm just saying that I can understand why virginity was a commodity back when it was the only means by which to affirm a "pure" lineage. But it still doesn't justify moral judgement. If sexual promiscuity is bad for women it should be bad for men too.
Traditionally most cultures allowed men to have more than one wife. It’s only the recent one of the European that started preaching strict monogamy.

If I blame both men and women for failing in their roles and unlike you, I don't blame men for everything, then why would I specifically place the blame on women for? If this goes back to my original comment in why women bought into vanity and validation is a consequence of the influence men's standards had on them . . . I stand by it. If that was one of their few metrics of value in the past then it makes sense why it was so easy to capitalise on. I didnt place the blame solely on men, I just pointed out that they have a significant role to play. Especially considering they're supposed to be the leaders.
Can you be specific as to what you’re blaming women for is what I’m asking? You’ve described what you blame men for(for a second time)now can you say what it is you blame women for? Specifically that is...

“But mommy you let (insert older brother or sister) stay out later?!?! If you let them you should let me!”

Smart mom: “There’s a different standard I have for you and (insert older brother or sister) “

And that’s that. There are different expectations of the man vs woman and it’s because they aren’t the same. They don’t have the same nature and those differences in nature should be respected as such. But the LGBT/feminism movement was created to blur these differences because blurring them causes chaos.
Because Middle Eastern countries collectively make up some of the most dangerous places for women in the world based on sexual violence (at least according to statistics). And this is with them covered up.
I’d like to see those statistics.
 





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#87
The problem is, hardly anyone has any awareness of the effects of sexual intimacy, so it is treated flippantly as if there are no spiritually bonding effects. If you're not willing to look at your own shame and remove the associated inner guilt, you should not even be removing your clothes in front of anyone else let alone engaging in sexual activity until you have worked on yourself and grown out of these conditioned attitudes that encourage holding onto shame and self-guilt.
Can’t disagree with you here.

Yet, in the warmest climates women have always bared a lot of skin however the cultures generally do not fetishize the female body nearly as much. This is a very misogynist attitude you seem to have. You have been conditioned to automatically associate bare skin with sexual intimacy, so you selfishly want to control women's choice of clothing and expect them to cover up on your behalf whether they are comfortable or not. The very same cultural conditioning is responsible for women not dressing appropriately for colder weather because they're going to a night club and trying to get a man's attention. It's a double-edged sword.
Those cultures don’t have the sex programming the one we’re in has. So obviously I’m referencing US culture and not the culture of some untouched tribes out there.

Control woman’s choice? Nope. It’s like a rubberband. Things are being stretched but eventually it will snap back to how it once was and how it’s supposed to be. So there’s no need to try to force anyone to do anything. They’ll be forced to do it when that rubberband snaps back into place...
 





Robin

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#88
Traditionally most cultures allowed men to have more than one wife. It’s only the recent one of the European that started preaching strict monogamy.
So what does that have to do with sexual promiscuity? It's not the same thing as polygamy even though a woman has never been allowed throughout history to have more than one legal husband.

Can you be specific as to what you’re blaming women for is what I’m asking? You’ve described what you blame men for(for a second time)now can you say what it is you blame women for? Specifically that is...
No because my original comment wasn't to toss all the blame on men. It was in response to a poster who claimed that women were largely responsible for the superficial nature of modern culture and I pointed out that men also had an important role in why that developed. You're trying to read things into my reply that wasn't there

“But mommy you let (insert older brother or sister) stay out later?!?! If you let them you should let me!”

Smart mom: “There’s a different standard I have for you and (insert older brother or sister) “

And that’s that. There are different expectations of the man vs woman and it’s because they aren’t the same. They don’t have the same nature and those differences in nature should be respected as such. But the LGBT/feminism movement was created to blur these differences because blurring them causes chaos.
So it's ok for men because of their different nature to be naturally promiscuous? You don't think promiscuity had an adverse effect on men as well? So who are all these men sleeping with? Unless of course no women are involved in male promiscuity lol in which case the double standard makes sense.

I’d like to see those statistics.
Sure.

"Gender violence, manifested essentially as violence against women, is one of the most significant epidemics in the Middle East today. This kind of violence occurs in practically all countries in the region and affects families of all backgrounds, religions, and social spheres. It affects not only families but societies as a whole.

It is estimated that 37 percent of women in Arab countries have experienced domestic violence. According to a United Nations report, approximately 200,000 women were victims of domestic violence in Israel between 2014 and 2015.

Various cultural, economic, and social factors, including shame and fear of retaliation from their partners, contribute to women’s reluctance to denounce these acts. The women who speak up mostly turn to their families and friends rather than the police. The lack of effective judicial response to their accusations contributes to their discouragement. North Africa and the Middle East have the fewest legal protections against domestic violence."
https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/07/25/domestic-violence-is-widespread-in-the-middle-east/

"Meta-analysis produced pooled prevalence estimates of lifetime exposure to any type of IPV of 73·3% (95% CI 64·1–81·6), physical IPV 35·6% (95% CI 24·4–47·5), sexual IPV 22% (95% CI 13·3–32) and emotional/psychological IPV 49·8% (95% CI 37·3–62·3). Domestic violence (IPV or family violence) exposure was associated with increased odds of adverse health outcomes: depression OR 3·3 (95% CI 1·7–6·4), sleep problems OR 3·2 (95% CI 1·5–6·8), abortion OR 3·5 (95% CI 1·2–10·2), pain OR 2·6 (95% CI 1·6–4·1) and hypertension OR 1·6 (95% CI 1·2–2·0)."

"Domestic violence is common amongst women seeking healthcare in Arab countries. Exposure to domestic violence is associated with several poor health outcomes. Further research into domestic violence in the Arab world is required."
https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-019-6619-2

Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria and Saudi Arabia form part of the top 8 most dangerous countries for women in 2018.
https://poll2018.trust.org
 





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#89
So what does that have to do with sexual promiscuity? It's not the same thing as polygamy even though a woman has never been allowed throughout history to have more than one legal husband.
I was pointing out that the double standard comes from the historical and traditional understanding that man could (not always should) have more than one wife while women, as you have admitted, could only have one. That’s what the double standard is rooted in

No because my original comment wasn't to toss all the blame on men. It was in response to a poster who claimed that women were largely responsible for the superficial nature of modern culture and I pointed out that men also had an important role in why that developed. You're trying to read things into my reply that wasn't there
Yea I never said you placed the blame solely on men. That was clearly me who did that. I asked a separate question to see if you could word out what you blamed women for and you haven’t said anything. You keep telling me about men being to blame for the standards women feel they have to keep. Okay I get that. So what is it, and it can be anything, do you blame women for?

So it's ok for men because of their different nature to be naturally promiscuous? You don't think promiscuity had an adverse effect on men as well? So who are all these men sleeping with? Unless of course no women are involved in male promiscuity lol in which case the double standard makes sense.
I told you about the root of the double standard and not the morality of promiscuity.

Sure.

"Gender violence, manifested essentially as violence against women, is one of the most significant epidemics in the Middle East today. This kind of violence occurs in practically all countries in the region and affects families of all backgrounds, religions, and social spheres. It affects not only families but societies as a whole.

It is estimated that 37 percent of women in Arab countries have experienced domestic violence. According to a United Nations report, approximately 200,000 women were victims of domestic violence in Israel between 2014 and 2015.

Various cultural, economic, and social factors, including shame and fear of retaliation from their partners, contribute to women’s reluctance to denounce these acts. The women who speak up mostly turn to their families and friends rather than the police. The lack of effective judicial response to their accusations contributes to their discouragement. North Africa and the Middle East have the fewest legal protections against domestic violence."
https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/07/25/domestic-violence-is-widespread-in-the-middle-east/

"Meta-analysis produced pooled prevalence estimates of lifetime exposure to any type of IPV of 73·3% (95% CI 64·1–81·6), physical IPV 35·6% (95% CI 24·4–47·5), sexual IPV 22% (95% CI 13·3–32) and emotional/psychological IPV 49·8% (95% CI 37·3–62·3). Domestic violence (IPV or family violence) exposure was associated with increased odds of adverse health outcomes: depression OR 3·3 (95% CI 1·7–6·4), sleep problems OR 3·2 (95% CI 1·5–6·8), abortion OR 3·5 (95% CI 1·2–10·2), pain OR 2·6 (95% CI 1·6–4·1) and hypertension OR 1·6 (95% CI 1·2–2·0)."

"Domestic violence is common amongst women seeking healthcare in Arab countries. Exposure to domestic violence is associated with several poor health outcomes. Further research into domestic violence in the Arab world is required."
https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-019-6619-2

Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria and Saudi Arabia form part of the top 8 most dangerous countries for women in 2018.
https://poll2018.trust.org
So just to be clear, by these stats(and I’m only referring to the first set because the rest were either questionable or opinion based) the Middle East is the most dangerous?
 





Robin

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#90
I was pointing out that the double standard comes from the historical and traditional understanding that man could (not always should) have more than one wife while women, as you have admitted, could only have one. That’s what the double standard is rooted in
Well, initially we weren't discussing polygamy. We were discussing general promiscuity. In more recent history men never married the women they slept with.

Yea I never said you placed the blame solely on men. That was clearly me who did that. I asked a separate question to see if you could word out what you blamed women for and you haven’t said anything. You keep telling me about men being to blame for the standards women feel they have to keep. Okay I get that. So what is it, and it can be anything, do you blame women for?
Let me try this again. If I never blamed men for anything specifically (I only pointed out that both men and women had a role to play in what was the root of narcissism and vanity in modern culture in response to a DIFFERENT poster), my point about them being partly or even largely responsible for the beauty standards women felt compelled to keep was in context of an entirely different discussion. But okay, I'll apply the same sort of reasoning to women's roles. Women also have a part to play in their objectification through the way they conduct themselves and dress while claiming respect for example. My initial posts reveal my opinion -that BOTH sexes are responsible for falling short. So I don't know why you insist I find something specific to blame women for just because I held my position that men also had a part to play in something someone else only blamed women for. Is it clearer now?

I told you about the root of the double standard and not the morality of promiscuity.
Well I was talking about the morality aspect. I recognise historically why promiscuity in men was seen differently but you were the one who applied different "standards" to the natures of men and women which is why I asked and I'll ask again -what about the women men slept with?

So just to be clear, by these stats(and I’m only referring to the first set because the rest were either questionable or opinion based) the Middle East is the most dangerous?
Uh-uh -ONE of the most dangerous. It's because of things I see on the news and read about but I went and looked up these statistics to confirm them lest you accuse me of making up my own narrative or following a false one and this is what came up. Whether you reject them or not, they exist and those last two are hardly opinion pieces -I specifically avoided MSM articles because I know they tend to slant everything a certain way. So short of moving to the Middle East and immersing myself in the culture and experiences of the women there, this is the best I can do in formulating an opinion.
 





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ishigo

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#91
Let’s change the scenario. Let’s say a smaller man walked around jail shirtless with his pants sagging. If he was raped I would definitely turn to him and point out how his demeanor may have increased his chances of being raped. That’s called holding yourself accountable. Just as if I went to a third world country with jewelry on, I can expect to eventually get robbed. I wouldn’t turn and say “But I should be able to wear what I want!” because that’s not reality.
For the example of women, I'm saying that the way she dresses herself could increase or diminish her chance of catching the eye of a drunk pig.
Then the vulnerability of that woman decides whether it will lead to a crime or not.
.
yall are litterally saying men are violent predators who can't help but r*pe everyone who's vulnerable.
 





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#92
Well today many men do get Cursed at by these women for just saying good morning or hello to them for no reason. And a lot of these women are really terrified of men that will start a normal conversation with them since i had it happened to me already, and a couple of other friends that i know which does make it very difficult for many of us men trying to meet a good woman today unfortunately.
 





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#94
Well, initially we weren't discussing polygamy. We were discussing general promiscuity. In more recent history men never married the women they slept with.
Actually you were going on about the double standard of promiscuity and I pointed out the historical context of that double standard.

Let me try this again.
Why? Every time I ask you specifically about women you bring up men lol

If I never blamed men for anything specifically (I only pointed out that both men and women had a role to play in what was the root of narcissism and vanity in modern culture in response to a DIFFERENT poster), my point about them being partly or even largely responsible for the beauty standards women felt compelled to keep was in context of an entirely different discussion. But okay, I'll apply the same sort of reasoning to women's roles. Women also have a part to play in their objectification through the way they conduct themselves and dress while claiming respect for example. My initial posts reveal my opinion -that BOTH sexes are responsible for falling short. So I don't know why you insist I find something specific to blame women for just because I held my position that men also had a part to play in something someone else only blamed women for. Is it clearer now?
“Have a part to play” isn’t really specific. Can you be specific about something you blame women for? Please let’s keep this on women. I saw what you said about men. I already said you didn’t blame men for everything. So what is it specifically that you place blame on women for?

Well I was talking about the morality aspect. I recognise historically why promiscuity in men was seen differently but you were the one who applied different "standards" to the natures of men and women which is why I asked and I'll ask again -what about the women men slept with?
What about them? When men had multiple women they were supposed to wife and take care of them. At the very least take care of them. Not just pump and dump like what goes on today.

Uh-uh -ONE of the most dangerous. It's because of things I see on the news and read about but I went and looked up these statistics to confirm them lest you accuse me of making up my own narrative or following a false one and this is what came up. Whether you reject them or not, they exist and those last two are hardly opinion pieces -I specifically avoided MSM articles because I know they tend to slant everything a certain way. So short of moving to the Middle East and immersing myself in the culture and experiences of the women there, this is the best I can do in formulating an opinion.
Watching the news and reading statistics is NOT the best way you could formulate your opinion on what goes on there...
 





Robin

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#95
Actually you were going on about the double standard of promiscuity and I pointed out the historical context of that double standard.
Wrong. This is what I said:

"There was a double standard because men were allowed to be as promiscuous as they wanted whereas women were socially flogged for it. That's probably one of the reasons why the sexual liberation movement was so easily accepted."

Hardly "going on" about it -that wasn't even the main point of what I was saying but for some or other reason you keep harping on about justifying promiscuity for men. That wasn't even the original topic of conversation.

Why? Every time I ask you specifically about women you bring up men lol
Because I didn't blame men for anything specifically so why are you asking me to blame women for something specifically?


“Have a part to play” isn’t really specific. Can you be specific about something you blame women for? Please let’s keep this on women. I saw what you said about men. I already said you didn’t blame men for everything. So what is it specifically that you place blame on women for?
Why are you so obsessed with me blaming women for something specific? Seriously, is there a point you're trying to make or something?

What about them? When men had multiple women they were supposed to wife and take care of them. At the very least take care of them. Not just pump and dump like what goes on today.
You're shifting the goal posts again. I'm not talking about polygamy . . . Again. I'm talking about general promiscuity. Men never married the women they fooled around with . . . There's a reason why there's a stereotype of men stringing women along with promises of marriage but never carrying it through. In the past a woman was "devalued" by losing her virtue when unwed. Yet you claim that there's different standards to sexuality because men and women's natures are different. Women lost a LOT more by sleeping with men out of wedlock so how is it ethical? That's why I'm saying if it's bad for women then it should be so for men as well because who are men sleeping with?

Watching the news and reading statistics is NOT the best way you could formulate your opinion on what goes on there...
Please reread what you wrote there and if it still makes sense to you then you can buy my ticket to the Middle East.
 





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#96
Wrong. This is what I said:

"There was a double standard because men were allowed to be as promiscuous as they wanted whereas women were socially flogged for it. That's probably one of the reasons why the sexual liberation movement was so easily accepted."

Hardly "going on" about it -that wasn't even the main point of what I was saying but for some or other reason you keep harping on about justifying promiscuity for men. That wasn't even the original topic of conversation.
I’m not justifying anything. Again I’m pointing out the historical context to the double standard. That context overrides the strict monogamy the west tries to force on people when traditionally it was polygamy that was being followed.

I understand this wasn’t the main topic but pointed out what felt was a false premise in what you were saying
Because I didn't blame men for anything specifically so why are you asking me to blame women for something specifically?



Why are you so obsessed with me blaming women for something specific? Seriously, is there a point you're trying to make or something?
Actually you blamed men for the beauty standards women FEEL (emphasized for a reason) they have to keep. After you said this I asked you for one thing you blame women for and you’ve been skating around it ever since.

My point? It’s hard for you, like most feminist supporters, to hold women accountable. That’s why every time I’ve asked you about women you bring up men.

You're shifting the goal posts again. I'm not talking about polygamy . . . Again. I'm talking about general promiscuity. Men never married the women they fooled around with . . . There's a reason why there's a stereotype of men stringing women along with promises of marriage but never carrying it through. In the past a woman was "devalued" by losing her virtue when unwed. Yet you claim that there's different standards to sexuality because men and women's natures are different. Women lost a LOT more by sleeping with men out of wedlock so how is it ethical? That's why I'm saying if it's bad for women then it should be so for men as well because who are men sleeping with?
Unless they were a practicing concubine then yes they were taken into marriage when messed around with in the days of polygamy. If you’re trying to defend the honor if prostitutes then by all means go ahead. Regular women were taken into marriage and taken care of because it would be a crime to not do so.

The different natures of men and women lead to different standards of conduct which leads to different expectations. That’s just reality. Trying to force these three things into the same box just isn’t realistic.

Please reread what you wrote there and if it still makes sense to you then you can buy my ticket to the Middle East.
Since I know that the news has been caught fabricating stories and statistics can be presented in a biased way to get a point across, I stand by my statement.

Also, in the same way you demonize their culture as being unsafe for women is the same way they could demonize yours as being unsafe for children based on how many are killed each year on the basis of “its my body”.
 





Robin

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#97
I’m not justifying anything. Again I’m pointing out the historical context to the double standard. That context overrides the strict monogamy the west tries to force on people when traditionally it was polygamy that was being followed.
No one brought up polygamy for the nth time. We were discussing the double standard of promiscuity (in the modern context not the ancient). Not polygamy. Not even cheating.

I understand this wasn’t the main topic but pointed out what felt was a false premise in what you were saying
Where was the false premise? Please quote it for me exactly because I have a feeling you're either misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I said.

Actually you blamed men for the beauty standards women FEEL (emphasized for a reason) they have to keep. After you said this I asked you for one thing you blame women for and you’ve been skating around it ever since.
No that isn't what I was doing. Its just your knee-jerk reaction to automatically assume that I blamed men when I expressly said they had a significant role to play in why the beauty industry has been able to capitalise on a woman's need to be beautiful. Or are you going to deny the logic behind that? You keep bringing up historical contexts for modern predicaments so let's look at it from that angle: a woman's appearance was greatly valued because marriage was the only means by which a woman used to be able to gain provision and security. Men like attractive women, always have. Thus women felt pressure to present themselves as attractive as possible. Thus men had a role to play in that. Similarly to how women would pick the most able provider for themselves and their children. Archaic generalisations but that's the reality right? So women prioritising success and wealth of resources as a desirable trait in a mate could also be seen as a contributing factor to why men worked so hard to accumulate both. Also the birth of "gold-digging". Do you see now what I meant? I brought that up because someone claimed that vanity and narcissism, traits the beauty industry thrives on, are solely female issues and that superficiality belonged to women alone. I pointed out that men had a role to play in why that happened to be engrained into modern dating culture and that it can be attributed to both sexes. That's it. And I'm tired of having to explain this again and again to you. I'm not looking for unnecessary back and forths.

My point? It’s hard for you, like most feminist supporters, to hold women accountable. That’s why every time I’ve asked you about women you bring up men.
I am not a feminist supporter but whatever. I understand the radical fringe's propaganda probably hurt your fragile ego so any time you detect anything you perceive as even slightly erring on the side of feminism you get sanctimonious and defensive to the detriment of your reading comprehension. Someone who doesn't hold women accountable wouldn't keep saying that both sexes are to blame, let alone believe in traditional gender roles.

Unless they were a practicing concubine then yes they were taken into marriage when messed around with in the days of polygamy. If you’re trying to defend the honor if prostitutes then by all means go ahead. Regular women were taken into marriage and taken care of because it would be a crime to not do so.
See this is the problem -you switched the goal posts. I'm not talking about "the days of polygamy", I'm talking about relatively modern history and you can't argue for it from that perspective because cultural polygamy is the only way you can defend male promiscuity without consequence as something honorable. Single mother epidemic anyone?

Since I know that the news has been caught fabricating stories and statistics can be presented in a biased way to get a point across, I stand by my statement.
So does that mean no one should ever have an opinion about anything? Gonna neatly skirt the part where I said I specifically avoid MSM because I'm acutely aware of how they manipulate narrative?

Also, in the same way you demonize their culture as being unsafe for women is the same way they could demonize yours as being unsafe for children based on how many are killed each year on the basis of “its my body”.
You don't even know what my culture is (hint: I'm not from the west) but I could agree with that considering I'm pro-life. Doesn't mean I excuse a culture in which women are still treated like second-class citizens.
 





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#98
No one brought up polygamy for the nth time. We were discussing the double standard of promiscuity (in the modern context not the ancient). Not polygamy. Not even cheating.
I dont think its this difficult. We can both agree that you brought up the double standard in how people view promiscuity in men and women right? So I said this double standard is based on the historical context of men having more than one woman. Thats it. You brought up the double standard and I added my input on why that double standard exists.

Where was the false premise? Please quote it for me exactly because I have a feeling you're either misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I said.
Well you said men are the reason women are buying all those beauty products (paraphrased) and I said thats false because historically, men kept a woman's beauty/sexuality covered up. I then brought up the Middle East and the Amish as examples of this. When men were in control of womens dress, they didnt put them in low cut tops, short skirts, and tight yoga pants. Women chose to do that at the behest of the bankers...

I am not a feminist supporter but whatever. I understand the radical fringe's propaganda probably hurt your fragile ego so any time you detect anything you perceive as even slightly erring on the side of feminism you get sanctimonious and defensive to the detriment of your reading comprehension. Someone who doesn't hold women accountable wouldn't keep saying that both sexes are to blame, let alone believe in traditional gender roles.
Im referencing the ideology you hold as being feminist. Thinking men and women have or should be held to the same standards, one isnt believing in traditional gender roles, and two, is feminist ideology. And if you believe in holding women accountable, why cant you give one example of something you blame them for? You said "they play a part" in something earlier. Okay. What part? Espousing what part would be something specific. Or saying "I blame them for the abortion epidemic" (if that was your stance) would be another. But you havent said anything. And not as if you're forced or required to, just saying...

Everything going on in this society is not my fight. So it doesnt bother me or "hurt my ego" when others go down the rabbit holes set up to lead them to destruction. Thats their choice not mine...

See this is the problem -you switched the goal posts. I'm not talking about "the days of polygamy", I'm talking about relatively modern history and you can't argue for it from that perspective because cultural polygamy is the only way you can defend male promiscuity without consequence as something honorable. Single mother epidemic anyone?
I'll say this one last time and keep it moving. I said that the double standard regarding promiscuity is because of the historical practice of men (not women) having MORE THAN one woman. Where am I defending anything going on today? Im saying that the double standard exists because man was historically given the option to have one or more women and that has trickled down to modern times. How you take this as defending whats going on in modern times, i dont know

So does that mean no one should ever have an opinion about anything? Gonna neatly skirt the part where I said I specifically avoid MSM because I'm acutely aware of how they manipulate narrative?
Things they're not well versed in? No. I cant say that theres a culture of kids being mistreated in Venezuela because I saw someone present some statistics and watched a couple of news clips. Dont you think things are more nuanced than that?

You don't even know what my culture is (hint: I'm not from the west) but I could agree with that considering I'm pro-life. Doesn't mean I excuse a culture in which women are still treated like second-class citizens.
Everything you have espoused in this thread from the point has been from western thought but that was a leap I admit.
 





Robin

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#99
I dont think its this difficult. We can both agree that you brought up the double standard in how people view promiscuity in men and women right? So I said this double standard is based on the historical context of men having more than one woman. Thats it. You brought up the double standard and I added my input on why that double standard exists.
And my problem with your input is that this:

"Men have always kept a woman’s sexuality covered for her mans eyes only."

Is a lie. Like I said this applied to the women men married. And not in the age of polygamy just in case you feel like bringing that argument up again. Outside of that premarital sex was far more damaging to women than men which is why I said the double standard is immoral considering the stigma attached to women simply because they're the ones who carry the child. It's that kind of thinking that led to the single mother epidemic.

Well you said men are the reason women are buying all those beauty products (paraphrased) and I said thats false because historically, men kept a woman's beauty/sexuality covered up.
Quote, don't paraphrase. I said men had a role to play. Which, as you so generously pointed out earlier is not the same thing as blaming them for something specific. And the beauty industry has nothing to do with clothing or lack thereof. The beauty industry we were referring to revolves around stuff like makeup for example -aesthetics. You completely misunderstood the previous conversation. Literally no one brought up styles of dress or sexuality before you.

I then brought up the Middle East and the Amish as examples of this. When men were in control of womens dress, they didnt put them in low cut tops, short skirts, and tight yoga pants. Women chose to do that at the behest of the bankers...
Yeah, too bad their women being covered up from head to toe doesn't prevent them from being raped and assaulted. You prove feminists right when you imply clothing is responsible for women getting raped. Which is false anyway because not every r*pe case involves a scantily clad woman.

Im referencing the ideology you hold as being feminist. Thinking men and women have or should be held to the same standards, one isnt believing in traditional gender roles, and two, is feminist ideology.
Believing that promiscuity is an example of a moral standard that is detrimental to both sexes is hardly rejecting traditional gender roles. If you believe men should be whores and women chaste I really don't care, but believing in sexual purity for both sexes is not a feminist position at all. Then again I shouldn't have expected differently from someone who puts being robbed on the same level as being raped.

And if you believe in holding women accountable, why cant you give one example of something you blame them for? You said "they play a part" in something earlier. Okay. What part? Espousing what part would be something specific. Or saying "I blame them for the abortion epidemic" (if that was your stance) would be another. But you havent said anything. And not as if you're forced or required to, just saying...
And I said men "played a part" in something originally too. I said I hold both sexes accountable for the general disintegration of social values. Get it now?

Things they're not well versed in? No. I cant say that theres a culture of kids being mistreated in Venezuela because I saw someone present some statistics and watched a couple of news clips. Dont you think things are more nuanced than that?
Women's treatment in the Middle East is not some modern fad story that only recently picked up speed because of the Western social climate. These kinds of stories have been circulating for a long time. So are you going to be able to provide any counter stats or news whatsoever or should I just take your word that the Middle East is a good example of conservative sexual ethics/gender roles?

Everything you have espoused in this thread from the point has been from western thought but that was a leap I admit.
What part of placing blame on both sexes is a Western ideology? Not every opinion that points a finger at men (and not even exclusively) is a godless, immoral Western notion. For heaven's sake.