Why Feminism isn't needed anymore (except in 3rd world countries)

mecca

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Yes, women have equality though. But not true equality, again that will never happen, so feminism is useless as achieving true equality is impossible.
We've already gone over this.
 





mecca

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Yes but I don’t think you really get it.
I don't think you get it... why do you think that women would just give up trying to be fully recognized as individual human beings? Why do you think that any person would stop fighting for their own autonomy. Every disadvantaged group is trying to make progress in the way society treats them, everyone wants freedom and the struggle for freedom is ongoing. If people stop making sure they are treated the way they should be, that gives room for someone to mistreat them and we will erase whatever progress we made.There will always be obstacles and setbacks but the only thing that allows progress is people not giving up. If people are being mistreated then there will always be people who are against it.
 





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The late Aaron Russo, on the reasons behind women's lib that was told to him by Rockefellar:
 





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I don't think you get it... why do you think that women would just give up trying to be fully recognized as individual human beings? Why do you think that any person would stop fighting for their own autonomy. Every disadvantaged group is trying to make progress in the way society treats them, everyone wants freedom and the struggle for freedom is ongoing. If people stop making sure they are treated the way they should be, that gives room for someone to mistreat them and we will erase whatever progress we made.There will always be obstacles and setbacks but the only thing that allows progress is people not giving up. If people are being mistreated then there will always be people who are against it.
Women are recognized as human beings.
 





mecca

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Women are recognized as human beings.
If women were respected as autonomous individuals then sexism would be eradicated.
 





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You dont understand. Its impossible to protext yourself from danger when you dont know where that danger comes from. When the guy who rapes you when your passed out drunk is your best frined since kindergarten, your teacher, your GRANDFATHER, your spouse.. the only way to be "responsible" and protect yourself from rapisrs or potential rapists is to imprison yourself away from life. That isnt fair to ask or expect. And is completely different then having your wallet stolen from a crowded bar. Not to mention how disturbing it is that u can even equate someones body and soul to a wallet to begin with.

The things you are looking at a s advantages women get arent at all, that was the point. If you guys want welfare checks and child support so bad your welcome to them, we will gladlyrelinquish those privilages in exchange for yours.
 





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Well what if the women is more drunk than the man?? She's now the rapist?
If the woman is less drunk than the man, she could absolutely be a rapist. Men can be raped by women and it absolutely happens. Of course, the fact that no one takes it seriously has less to do with feminism and more to do the perceptions of masculinity than anything else.

I never questioned or lessened the severity of r*pe though. I never suggested that the punishment for r*pe conviction is too harsh either. My only point is how can women be oppressed when at the same time they're being given advantages over men when it comes to the court system or welfare? I'm not saying abuse/mistreatment of women or any group shouldn't be addressed, but to me the feminist movement is just about breaking gender roles/the traditional family unit which works to those in power's best interest if they're not for the people
ot

The way our legal system works, both genders have advantage and disadvantage. Contrary to popular belief, r*pe is very hard to convict. Unless there's some sort of convincing evidence there isn't even an arrest, let alone a conviction and most of the legal benefits that people complain about (such as child custody rights, based on the belief that women are inherently better caretakers) are things feminsits complain about. Gender roles and all... I mean, half the crap MRA-style folks complained about are things that feminists complained about, too.


Gender roles and tradition are also meaningless in the grand scheme of things; the elite doesn't care one way or another about their preservation or destruction. They are illusions of choice, presented to make us feel as we're fighting for something valuabl, whether its liberity or sacred tradition. If you don't believe that all you have to do is look at the history of American politics; the pendulum swings back and forth, between progress and tradition, but whether the country leans towards liberalism or conservatism, the same people are still calling the shots in the shadows since all they had to do is ride the waves.

I know you didn't deserve to have your wallet stolen but it will happen regardless. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.

KM and I perfectly understand that what these people do is wrong and should be punished but what you fail to understand is that there will always be people out there who will do bad things regardless of what society thinks and what the laws are and therefore you shouldn't put yourself in those situations if it can be avoided because at the end of the day only you can protect yourself.
It will happen, but it doesn't make it right, and we need to work towards a world where more people know its wrong. We need to raise children who will see the drunk guy leave his wallet and given it back to him, or at the very least, hand it to the guy behind the bar for safekeeping... Just like we need to raise children to think that if someone is passed out or very drunk, maybe it's not the best idea to have sex with them, or just because a girl's skirt is short doesn't give you the right to sex.

We need to fix this world, not just let shit get worse.
 





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None of this has anything to do with what I said though. I'm speaking about how society treats women in the court system when compared to men not the hardships of being a single parent or low income or how much or little welfare actually helps.





If you're raped while passed out drunk then the blame starts with you. Who else are you going to blame? The criminal who is there to commit crimes no matter what the law says or if you're sober or drunk? If I leave my wallet unattended in a packed bar, then the blame for it being stolen starts with me. The criminal still shouldn't have taken my wallet but above all, I shouldn't have made the poor decision to leave my wallet unattended. It shouldn't be too hard to transfer this analogy to sexual assault where poor decisions can increase the chances of an assault.

There will never be a time in this society where there are no thieves or rapists so we have to take it upon ourselves to do our best to protect ourselves. That's reality. Reality isn't a place where I can make poor decisions and still be protected from the poor consequences that might come about.
I think I understand where you are going with this. However, it is easy for this discussion to be muddied because we are discussing a subject that could easily lean towards adopting old r*pe myths. Would you mind clarifying that what you are saying is not suggesting what could be defined as a former r*pe myth?

A r*pe myth would be saying something like the length of her skirt is why she was raped or some other ridiculous feature that could be used to suggest that a woman could not say no and be taken seriously. Another r*pe myth would be something like because a woman is not a virgin, even if she says no, it isn't really r*pe because r*pe can only be committed if you are a virgin.

There is a list of them. What you are saying is leaning in that direction so I think it would be could to clarify that you do you not agree with what could be considered a r*pe myth.

What I think you are trying to say is that women have gained equality to the extent that if we are discussing r*pe, it should not be considered a feminist subject, but should evolve into a discussion of victims rights that are not defined by the gender a person belongs to.

I would agree with this. I think that what could be traditionally seen as a discussion of women's rights should evolve to a gender-neutral discussion of victims rights. Although, like I said, your definition of a position in this direction needs a little more clarity so that it is forward thinking and not backward.

For example, you are using the example of requiring self-awareness so that a person prevents being robbed by not walking down a dark ally at night. Even if a person does this and they are robbed, they are entitled to report this as a crime committed against them. They are the victim of a crime that is not defined by gender.

If we were to move forward with a discussion using this as a comparison, we would not assume that responsibility to prevent a crime rested with the victim of the crime. We would assume that victim rights were not defined by gender. I would agree that we are in a place where victims rights should not be defined by gender and that women have equality to warrant progression of a discussion like this.
 





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It will happen, but it doesn't make it right, and we need to work towards a world where more people know its wrong. We need to raise children who will see the drunk guy leave his wallet and given it back to him, or at the very least, hand it to the guy behind the bar for safekeeping... Just like we need to raise children to think that if someone is passed out or very drunk, maybe it's not the best idea to have sex with them, or just because a girl's skirt is short doesn't give you the right to sex.

We need to fix this world, not just let shit get worse.
I understand perfectly and agree with you but I'm afraid that's never going to happen. We will never live in a perfect world and if you want your loved ones safe then you should teach them to avoid places with large gatherings and alcohol. Of course, we try to make the world better and better but it doesn't mean you shouldn't take precautions.
 





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You dont understand. Its impossible to protext yourself from danger when you dont know where that danger comes from. When the guy who rapes you when your passed out drunk is your best frined since kindergarten, your teacher, your GRANDFATHER, your spouse.. the only way to be "responsible" and protect yourself from rapisrs or potential rapists is to imprison yourself away from life. That isnt fair to ask or expect. And is completely different then having your wallet stolen from a crowded bar. Not to mention how disturbing it is that u can even equate someones body and soul to a wallet to begin with.
It's not fair to ask of women to NOT increase their chances of being sexually assaulted by for instance, not getting passed out drunk around men?

The things you are looking at a s advantages women get arent at all, that was the point. If you guys want welfare checks and child support so bad your welcome to them, we will gladlyrelinquish those privilages in exchange for yours.
They are advantages as they are things offered more readily to women than men.
 





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If the woman is less drunk than the man, she could absolutely be a rapist. Men can be raped by women and it absolutely happens. Of course, the fact that no one takes it seriously has less to do with feminism and more to do the perceptions of masculinity than anything else.

ot

The way our legal system works, both genders have advantage and disadvantage. Contrary to popular belief, r*pe is very hard to convict. Unless there's some sort of convincing evidence there isn't even an arrest, let alone a conviction and most of the legal benefits that people complain about (such as child custody rights, based on the belief that women are inherently better caretakers) are things feminsits complain about. Gender roles and all... I mean, half the crap MRA-style folks complained about are things that feminists complained about, too.
They may complain about gender roles but they're definitely not complaining about the advantages they receive in the court. And as this thread attests, you'd be hard pressed to get them to even acknowledge them

Gender roles and tradition are also meaningless in the grand scheme of things; the elite doesn't care one way or another about their preservation or destruction. They are illusions of choice, presented to make us feel as we're fighting for something valuabl, whether its liberity or sacred tradition. If you don't believe that .
Yea I can't buy that at all. This society is built on luciferianism (I.e. Do what thou wilt) and that doesn't come attached with gender roles and strong familial units. That's without mentioning that Russo character who somebody posted a video of saying explicitly what he was told by the roths or rocafellers
 





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I think I understand where you are going with this. However, it is easy for this discussion to be muddied because we are discussing a subject that could easily lean towards adopting old r*pe myths. Would you mind clarifying that what you are saying is not suggesting what could be defined as a former r*pe myth?

A r*pe myth would be saying something like the length of her skirt is why she was raped or some other ridiculous feature that could be used to suggest that a woman could not say no and be taken seriously. Another r*pe myth would be something like because a woman is not a virgin, even if she says no, it isn't really r*pe because r*pe can only be committed if you are a virgin.

There is a list of them. What you are saying is leaning in that direction so I think it would be could to clarify that you do you not agree with what could be considered a r*pe myth.

What I think you are trying to say is that women have gained equality to the extent that if we are discussing r*pe, it should not be considered a feminist subject, but should evolve into a discussion of victims rights that are not defined by the gender a person belongs to.

I would agree with this. I think that what could be traditionally seen as a discussion of women's rights should evolve to a gender-neutral discussion of victims rights. Although, like I said, your definition of a position in this direction needs a little more clarity so that it is forward thinking and not backward.

For example, you are using the example of requiring self-awareness so that a person prevents being robbed by not walking down a dark ally at night. Even if a person does this and they are robbed, they are entitled to report this as a crime committed against them. They are the victim of a crime that is not defined by gender.

If we were to move forward with a discussion using this as a comparison, we would not assume that responsibility to prevent a crime rested with the victim of the crime. We would assume that victim rights were not defined by gender. I would agree that we are in a place where victims rights should not be defined by gender and that women have equality to warrant progression of a discussion like this.
im saying that getting passed out drunk is stupid and even more so for a female around males. Of course in a perfect world nothing would happen no matter what but we're not in a perfect so it's on the woman to protect herself as much as possible. I'm not sure what's off base about this statement when it's the feminists that tell us men and women are the same...

Now the whole reason r*pe got brought up in the first place is because I said two people can have drunken consensual sex one night and the next day a r*pe accusation is on the table because the women forgets/regrets the act. Now who will the courts believe assuming there's no witnesses/texts and only the sperm inside the woman to go by? Who will generally get believed first if she goes to the police? They didn't want to address that and went on these tangents concerning r*pe that I didn't intend to go into.

I think it's foolish to draw sexual attention to yourself by wearing skimpy clothes than get mad when it comes your way but that still doesn't mean anyone deserves to get raped. To answer your r*pe myth question
 





mecca

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im saying that getting passed out drunk is stupid and even more so for a female around males. Of course in a perfect world nothing would happen no matter what but we're not in a perfect so it's on the woman to protect herself as much as possible.
Everyone already understands that. No one ever disagreed with the fact that women have to protect themselves as much as possible... everyone should. But that doesn't mean that people can blame the victim for being raped if they made a mistake. Considering the fact that most rapes happen between people who know each other, it's harder for women to see the people they are closest to as potential threats constantly. It's wrong to keep people in a constant state of vigilance for their own safety, instead we should focus on educating people on consent and trying to reduce the amount of rapes that occur.
Now the whole reason r*pe got brought up in the first place is because I said two people can have drunken consensual sex one night and the next day a r*pe accusation is on the table because the women forgets/regrets the act.
You keep bringing it up but when does this ever happen? Is this a real issue that's prominent in society? The rates of false accusations are extremely low and typically don't result in any dire consequences for the accused. Read this: https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-r*pe-accusations/
 





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Everyone already understands that. No one ever disagreed with the fact that women have to protect themselves as much as possible... everyone should. But that doesn't mean that people can blame the victim for being raped if they made a mistake. Considering the fact that most rapes happen between people who know each other, it's harder for women to see the people they are closest to as potential threats constantly. It's wrong to keep people in a constant state of vigilance for their own safety, instead we should focus on educating people on consent and trying to reduce the amount of rapes that occur.
I've repeatedly made a point to say that no matter what, a person doesn't deserve to be raped so why keep talking about blaming the victim? You can say all you want against not smoking weed, there are those who will still do it. Same with stealing or any other crime. Criminals will continue to commit crimes no matter what laws or education put in place. I mean who in their right mind needs an education when it comes to what "No" means? Feminists would make more gains if they attacked the oversexualization in this society but of course that would mean an increase of modesty when it comes to the woman. Something feminists aren't down for so it seems

You keep bringing it up but when does this ever happen? Is this a real issue that's prominent in society? The rates of false accusations are extremely low and typically don't result in any dire consequences for the accused. Read this: https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-r*pe-accusations/
It happens. And like I said a quick google will show you stories of it happening. And instead of addressing it, you keep turning to numbers that can't be accurately measured in full.
 





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If you are making an argument it is on you to support/prove that arument. If you are not willing to do so then dont be mad/upset/shocked when people instead go with the academic/statistical consensus. You have nor proved this is prevalent therefore as far as im concerned its not based on previous academic research, news stories showing light sentences or acquittals, and personal experience. No one is going to entertain your hypothetical without you forst establishing you have grounds.

So then i guess u are just of the opinion women should never drink no matter who there with? Because you just keep skipping past the fact most rapes are NOT STRANGER rapes.

And yeah teaching affirmative consent does help, because most men who r*pe arent APD criminal types, r*pe is a crime but its different from other crimes in pretty much every manner including characteristice of perpetrator.