Why Feminism isn't needed anymore (except in 3rd world countries)

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#81
we shouldnt have to reduce our freedom at all to prevent being raped or assaulted.. but people clearly still think the majority of the burden lies on us..
This makes no sense. There will always be a compromise in freedom no matter the situation. Are you saying if an employee leaves the store with no one else tending to it and there are no other security measures, they're not the ones at fault if things are stolen because everyone is expected to abide by the law? Things don't work that way. You have to lock your door when you sleep, you watch out for cars on the road when you walk across it, because you can't expect everyone to act perfectly. This goes to both men and women. Personal measures are a thing, you're always expected to protect yourself first.
 




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#82
I think we can all agree that someone trying to influence you into getting drunk while they don't is pretty nefarious but whatever happened to personal responsibility? Women should teach other women to learn how to not get into situations where they can be taken advantage of and this goes for boys as well. Before my wife became a Muslim she used to drink but she knew better than to be in a club alone and surrounded by guys while drunk.

If I was black I wouldn't be walking into bars owned by the KKK.

Since we have FEMINism we should also have MASCULISim. You know so the gender playing field can be equalized.
Personal responsibility is a thing, sure. If I'm so drunk and leave my wallet at the bar and walk off, and it gets stolen, I'm an idiot... But just because I'm an idiot doesn't mean I deserve to have my wallet stolen and the person that stole it shouldn't still be arrested for a crime. If Jenny is drunk off her ass and Johnny exploits for sex, he's a rapist. Jenny might be stupid, for getting drunk when Johnny's around... But Johnny's did the crime.

My scenario didnt include the details you are adding in. I said two drunk people having consensual sex to where the next day the female regrets or doesn't remember the act and cries r*pe. When are the feminists going to speak out against that? Should men create an ism to combat that ill that is DEFINITELY prevalent in society or are we going to pretend that it doesn't happen that much if at all? Asking if I'd be cool with r*pe is feminazi 101. Which is why I continually repeat that no one deserves to be raped.
If both people are equally drunk, it isn't r*pe, and I can't think of any case were someone was arrested. There's certainly been a few cases where the dude was drunk, but in almost every case he's be significantly less drunk.

And you're right; feminists usually don't speak up against false r*pe claims. They absolutely happen, and its awful... But consider it from the perspective of a feminist. r*pe is still a crime where women feel like they have to fight to prove. "You shouldn't have got drunk with him." "You shouldn't have worn a shirt that short or a top that showed that much cleavage." "You shouldn't have been there alone at night." If they acknowledge false r*pe claims, that gives their attack more ammunition against them. "How do we know you're not list lying because you regret it?"


Almost every r*pe victims asks themselves if it was their fault. They question themselves, wonder if they did something to deserve. Some never come forward, because the amount of shame and pain they feel... And really, it's something most men will never understand. And then men that do understand are usually the sort that understand why sometimes a woman waits twenty fucking years before she comes forward because even sharing such a violation of self with someone you love and trust, let alone a stranger, is one of the hardest things you can ever do.

r*pe isn't just sex. It's one of the worst crimes that a any victim can suffer, because it's a complete loss of power. It's forcefully stripping someone down to their most vulnerable position, and violating that person to their core. I know people who experienced sexual assault, who decades later, still feel pain from it. They swear that it will never happen again, even if they have to die, and it's harmed every relationship they've been in since. Since it's nothing you heal from. It's nothing you forget. It's nothing that you forgive. It's something you live with and try to keep from consuming you and there isn't a single victim, male or female, of sexual assault/r*pe that ever lives normally after it.

I feel that people like you and Kung Fu don't really understand the severity of the crime.
 




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#83
I don't believe there is a solidified way to get stats on how many women have falsely accused someone of r*pe so I definitely question that 3% number. On the flip side you can google and find story after story of false/misguided r*pe accusations from high and low profile men



Your personal and anecdotal experiences are relevant to you but shouldn't be relevant to the public when trying to come to a consensus about something.
The news stories you are citinf as proof are nothing but anecdotal evidence as well. You are taking the word of someone accused of a crime who has every incentive to deny culpability. Thats naive to say the least.

The statistics on false claims are pretty thoroughly vetted and studied. False reports of r*pe are among the lowest for all categories of crime..
 




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#84
If you're equal to men then the burden of protecting yourself to the best of your ability DOES rely on you.

And no you shouldn't have to restrict yourself to go about. But you have to because the world is an effed up place. It'd be cool if I could wear whatever colors I wanted in gang infested areas. It'd be cool if I could wear as much jewelry or have as much money on me as I wanted in low income high crime areas. It'd be cool if in some foreign countries I could shake their hand with my left or right or give a peace/ thumbs up sign without offending anyone. But since this isn't a perfect world I have to recognize my reaponibility to not increase the chances of certain things happening to me. Is it fair? No not really. But it is life so I can either deal with it or run away from the reality of things.
What your talking about is situational.

What your suggesting women do us be on guard every minute of evey day for their entire life. If you cant see the difference i dont know how to make you see so i guess it is what it is. Men make up 50% of the population, they are everywhere at all times, theres no way to know whos a risk and who isnt, and i dont think its fair to ask women to go thrrough the world constantly in fear to that extent. I dont think its fair to ask women to place the entire responsobility for womens safety on womens backs 24/7.

I dont think its fair to men to sell them so short you wont even try to hold them to a higher standard
 




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#85
If both people are equally drunk, it isn't r*pe, and I can't think of any case were someone was arrested. There's certainly been a few cases where the dude was drunk, but in almost every case he's be significantly less drunk.
Well what if the women is more drunk than the man?? She's now the rapist?

And you're right; feminists usually don't speak up against false r*pe claims. They absolutely happen, and its awful... But consider it from the perspective of a feminist. r*pe is still a crime where women feel like they have to fight to prove. "You shouldn't have got drunk with him." "You shouldn't have worn a shirt that short or a top that showed that much cleavage." "You shouldn't have been there alone at night." If they acknowledge false r*pe claims, that gives their attack more ammunition against them. "How do we know you're not list lying because you regret it?"


Almost every r*pe victims asks themselves if it was their fault. They question themselves, wonder if they did something to deserve. Some never come forward, because the amount of shame and pain they feel... And really, it's something most men will never understand. And then men that do understand are usually the sort that understand why sometimes a woman waits twenty fucking years before she comes forward because even sharing such a violation of self with someone you love and trust, let alone a stranger, is one of the hardest things you can ever do.

r*pe isn't just sex. It's one of the worst crimes that a any victim can suffer, because it's a complete loss of power. It's forcefully stripping someone down to their most vulnerable position, and violating that person to their core. I know people who experienced sexual assault, who decades later, still feel pain from it. They swear that it will never happen again, even if they have to die, and it's harmed every relationship they've been in since. Since it's nothing you heal from. It's nothing you forget. It's nothing that you forgive. It's something you live with and try to keep from consuming you and there isn't a single victim, male or female, of sexual assault/r*pe that ever lives normally after it.

I feel that people like you and Kung Fu don't really understand the severity of the crime.
I never questioned or lessened the severity of r*pe though. I never suggested that the punishment for r*pe conviction is too harsh either. My only point is how can women be oppressed when at the same time they're being given advantages over men when it comes to the court system or welfare? I'm not saying abuse/mistreatment of women or any group shouldn't be addressed, but to me the feminist movement is just about breaking gender roles/the traditional family unit which works to those in power's best interest if they're not for the people
 




mecca

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#86
My only point is how can women be oppressed when at the same time they're being given advantages over men when it comes to the court system or welfare?
Why would one aspect negate another? And how do women have advantages in those areas? Ultimately, if there is inequality based on gender in any context, it will need to be resolved and feminists will want to resolve it.
 




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#87
The news stories you are citinf as proof are nothing but anecdotal evidence as well. You are taking the word of someone accused of a crime who has every incentive to deny culpability. Thats naive to say the least.

The statistics on false claims are pretty thoroughly vetted and studied. False reports of r*pe are among the lowest for all categories of crime..
I disagree. Anecdotal is an individual telling you something on a personal level (off the record). That's something that can't be examined or verified by everyone. News stories accompanied with police investigations are not anecdotal

I also don't believe that false r*pe accusations can be accurately measured. They can make estimations I suppose, but to get a concrete measurement? I can't see it.
 




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#88
The stories your reading in The papers arent accompanied by police reports, most of the time. If you haveexamples of this please provide. The overwhelming majority of r*pe cases never even make it to the papers so what you are reading are only thw most sensationalized and publicized cases to begin with. You cant base yoir opinion on an entire issue on the most sensationalized aspects of It.

Welfare and the courts lean towaeds womeb because of thousands of years of patriarchal ideas and tradition, not because of feminists. And tbh getting higher welfare checks or child support (which most women never evn receive fyi) isnt exactly a privilage. Do you think single moms view these things as perks? If the father was the sole primary caretaker hed be entitled to these things as well.
 




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#89
Oh and yeah if a woman took advantage of a man too drunk to consent then she would be a rapist as well and shohld be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
 




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#90
What your talking about is situational.

What your suggesting women do us be on guard every minute of evey day for their entire life. If you cant see the difference i dont know how to make you see so i guess it is what it is. Men make up 50% of the population, they are everywhere at all times, theres no way to know whos a risk and who isnt, and i dont think its fair to ask women to go thrrough the world constantly in fear to that extent. I dont think its fair to ask women to place the entire responsobility for womens safety on womens backs 24/7.

I dont think its fair to men to sell them so short you wont even try to hold them to a higher standard
Most men aren't going around sexually assaulting or raping women. So there's no need for a higher standard when it comes to the majority. Now historically speaking a woman's, fathers/brothers were her protectors until marriage to when the husband would take over. If feminism wants to shirk these traditional gender roles because there is supposedly no difference between a man and a woman, then yes, the responsibility of protecting oneself from r*pe relies on herself. I'm not even sure what the argument is. Thievery will never not exist in this society so who is it on to protect myself from being stolen from other than me? There are behaviors that can increase or decrease the chances of me being stolen from the same going for a woman in regards to r*pe.

Locking my car door so no one gets inside, not leaving my front door wide open when I'm not home, not leaving my cell phone at the bar while I run to the restroom isn't about "fear".. Its about doing the things I can to decrease the chances of me being stolen from. Now I can do all those things and someone comes to break my car window, kick down my door, or rob me at gunpoint for my phone. At that point I did all I could to protect myself. My point wasn't to discuss r*pe in detail but just to point out that a drunken consensual night of sex can turn into a r*pe accusation because the women regrets/forgets what exactly happened. Now when she's goes to the police with evidence left by the man inside her, who do you think they'll believe (with nothing else to by by such as texts or witnesses)? My point is that is an advantage women have over men when it comes the court system
 




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#91
Why would one aspect negate another? And how do women have advantages in those areas? Ultimately, if there is inequality based on gender in any context, it will need to be resolved and feminists will want to resolve it.
So the argument is that society is oppressing women while at the same time ensuring that they have an advantage in the court system?

And no disrespect, but if you're in america, you shouldn't need me to explain how women have the advantage when it comes to child support or welfare. Especially with the internet at your fingertips.
 




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#92
The stories your reading in The papers arent accompanied by police reports, most of the time. If you haveexamples of this please provide. The overwhelming majority of r*pe cases never even make it to the papers so what you are reading are only thw most sensationalized and publicized cases to begin with. You cant base yoir opinion on an entire issue on the most sensationalized aspects of It.

Welfare and the courts lean towaeds womeb because of thousands of years of patriarchal ideas and tradition, not because of feminists. And tbh getting higher welfare checks or child support (which most women never evn receive fyi) isnt exactly a privilage. Do you think single moms view these things as perks? If the father was the sole primary caretaker hed be entitled to these things as well.
All I said was that if two people have a night of drunken sex that the woman doesn't remember correctly or forgets, that they could turn into a r*pe accusation the next day. And if it did, generally speaking, the women would be believed more times than the man. That's how this talk on r*pe got started.

As far as the whys when it comes to the court system/welfare benefit women before men, that isn't really relevant. All that matters is they ARE given that advantage, which kinda works against the "society is oppressing us" feminist angle.

Truth be told, when some of these feminists talk about oppression, they're referring to the traditional gender role that has been placed on them. That's what they want to shirk and that's what the elite wants them to shirk so as to break down the traditional family unit.
 




mecca

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#93
So the argument is that society is oppressing women while at the same time ensuring that they have an advantage in the court system?
So you're saying that because men might be treated worse in one area, women can't be treated badly in other areas?
 




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#95
Have u ever been a single parent? It isnt fun or easy or some sort of perk/advantage. Neither is getting a welfare check (humiliating and barely enough to buy diapers/also comes with a work requirementonce that child is 6weeks old but dont worry they will pay for childcare so u can fulfill saod requirement) or fighting for the person who helped make your kids help to financially care for them (which contrary to popular belief most dont do willingly if at all and most child support awards are miniscule when they are actually paid anyway). Being primary custodian while not being completely financially cared for isnt some sort of advantage either, u have to juggle work and kids on your own while also taking care of school, drs appointments etc. Men who get to write a check and see their kids every other weekend have it far easier which is why i suspect mkst men dont even fight for or ask for more than that.

So if im raped while past out black out drunk by someone i previously turned down 500 times and clearly knew i wasnt interested - and your way of thinking prevails(as it already does) - whats to make someone believe it was r*pe? Or the rapist can just get away with it because what? Bitches lie? What makes you believe the woman just made a bad decision and regrets it when the whole process of acccusing someone of r*pe is set up to be as humiliating and difficult as possible? So much so that most women dont ever even report it.
 




mecca

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#96
Mecca are you a feminist? I thought you are a Muslim.
I don't think anyone should be mistreated for their gender, I believe in women's equality and I'm against sexism so yes I'm a feminist. What does it have to do with religion?
 




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#97
I don't think anyone should be mistreated for their gender, I believe in women's equality and I'm against sexism so yes I'm a feminist. What does it have to do with religion?
Yes, women have equality though. But not true equality, again that will never happen, so feminism is useless as achieving true equality is impossible.
 




Rec

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#98
I don't think anyone should be mistreated for their gender, I believe in women's equality and I'm against sexism so yes I'm a feminist. What does it have to do with religion?
Well, on the one hand, feminism in the last century has been a movement predominated by Jews who, more often than not, are also homosexuals (see Louise Weiss, Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, Andrea Dworkin, Jo Freeman, Naomi Weisstein, Annie Sprinkle, Heather Booth, Gayle Rubin, Ariel Levy, and the list goes on). And on the other hand, Koran 4:34 teaches that "men are in charge of women" and that husbands may jail their wives in their rooms and beat them; and Koran 2:223 teaches that wives are a tilth to be plowed whenever the man wishes. Also, the prophet Muhammad taught that the testimony of a woman is worth half as much as a man's because of "the deficiency in her intelligence" (Al-Bukhari 6:301); the majority of people in hell are women because they "curse frequently and are ungrateful to [their] husbands" (ibid.); women are crooked, "if you try to straighten them, they will break" (Al-Bukhari 62:113); and besides dogs and donkeys, only women can annul prayer (Al-Bukhari 9:493). I'm not sure what you consider mistreatment based on gender, but for a Muslim I imagine it must fall outside the bounds of beatings and being sexually available whenever your husband wants.
 




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#99
Personal responsibility is a thing, sure. If I'm so drunk and leave my wallet at the bar and walk off, and it gets stolen, I'm an idiot... But just because I'm an idiot doesn't mean I deserve to have my wallet stolen and the person that stole it shouldn't still be arrested for a crime. If Jenny is drunk off her ass and Johnny exploits for sex, he's a rapist. Jenny might be stupid, for getting drunk when Johnny's around... But Johnny's did the crime.

I feel that people like you and Kung Fu don't really understand the severity of the crime.
I know you didn't deserve to have your wallet stolen but it will happen regardless. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that.

KM and I perfectly understand that what these people do is wrong and should be punished but what you fail to understand is that there will always be people out there who will do bad things regardless of what society thinks and what the laws are and therefore you shouldn't put yourself in those situations if it can be avoided because at the end of the day only you can protect yourself.
 




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So you're saying that because men might be treated worse in one area, women can't be treated badly in other areas?
I asked you if the argument is that women are being oppressed by society while at the same time that the same society ensures that they are protected and given advantages in the court system and when it comes to safety nets? Your answer to that is...?