Why Do You Think Jesus Is The Son Of God?

Kung Fu

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I confirmed my biases using scripture with scripture. You attempted to use history but no real scriptural basis which is what mattered to Israel and what matters to a Christian.

I can show you through the whole bible how there was never going to be another prophet after Jesus, how He is the final message unto His second coming.

Quite honestly the below verse sounds like His second coming unless Muhammad did this.

Isaiah 42:15 KJV
I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools.

Look at this verse
Isaiah 42:1 KJV
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Isaiah makes clear servant and not multiple either. He is setting up context at the beginning of the chapter. That's why I referenced all those verses. You claim to not believe any of the Bible and that's it's corrupted but in the same breath will attribute seven verses from Isaiah to Muhammad. Scripture generally confirms scripture and I can't really explain it any better so long as you have blinders to maintain your bias.

That is Yahweh speaking through the entire chapter of one servant specifically Jesus. All of these are future events and not everything has played out yet. I don't care if you want to attribute those verses to Muhammad but in doing so you err.
Herbs and rivers did dry up during Muhammad's(pbuh) time hence why it's a desert.

Also, I had a feeling you would bring up the fact that I don't believe in the Bible we have to day but if you ever read anything I've said in the past, I've stated multiple times that when I do quote the OT and NT it's merealy for discussion purposes and since the only thing you Christians believe in is the Bible, it would make sense I would use it. Just because I use it doesn't mean I believe in it. You also have to remember that in my personal view the OT is a lot less corrupted than the NT.

You can say it's speaking of Jesus but verses 10-17 are clearly not about Jesus. Jesus did not sing a new song, he did not make the settlements of Kedar rejoice, he did not make the people of Sela sing, and he was not a warrior. You have two possible situations either the person verses 10-17 describes hasn't come yet or that it's Muhammad(pbuh). Now we already have a condidate that fits the description perfectly (muhammad(pbuh)) who also claimed to be a prophet and sang a new song but I find Christians will deny it because if they didn't it would shatter their belief system.

You telling me I err because there's a person who fits the description perfectly shows me you really have no evidence to the contrary. I'm not trying to win an argument here but merealy let you know that there is no other person this description describes other than Muhammad(pbuh)

You say you can show me that there will be no prophet after Jesus yet the Jews will tell you the same thing. Funny how that works lol.
 
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Why is Jesus the Son of God? He has power to forgive sins (The healing of the Paralytic Mark 2:1-12)

"When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick
of the palsy, Son, thy sins
be forgiven thee. But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who
can forgive sins but God
only? And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, He said
unto them, Why reason ye
these things in your hearts? Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath
power on earth to forgive
sins,..."
All this proves is that Jesus said and did what Almighty God told him. Just as Jesus said elsewhere (parpaphrasing) 'I don't do my own will but the Will of the Father who sent me'. and his authority to do miracles was from God etc...

Muhammad gave the glad tidings of Paradise (heaven) to some of his followers, Does this mean that since only God determines which of His servants will be in heaven that Muhammad is God - no of course not. Jesus and Muhammad both acted on the authority given to them by God.
 

Karlysymon

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Herbs and rivers did dry up during Muhammad's(pbuh) time hence why it's a desert.

Also, I had a feeling you would bring up the fact that I don't believe in the Bible we have to day but if you ever read anything I've said in the past, I've stated multiple times that when I do quote the OT and NT it's merealy for discussion purposes and since the only thing you Christians believe in is the Bible, it would make sense I would use it. Just because I use it doesn't mean I believe in it. You also have to remember that in my personal view the OT is a lot less corrupted than the NT.

You can say it's speaking of Jesus but verses 10-17 are clearly not about Jesus. Jesus did not sing a new song, he did not make the settlements of Kedar rejoice, he did not make the people of Sela sing, and he was not a warrior. You have two possible situations either the person verses 10-17 describes hasn't come yet or that it's Muhammad(pbuh). Now we already have a condidate that fits the description perfectly (muhammad(pbuh)) who also claimed to be a prophet and sang a new song but I find Christians will deny it because if they didn't it would shatter their belief system.

You telling me I err because there's a person who fits the description perfectly shows me you really have no evidence to the contrary. I'm not trying to win an argument here but merealy let you know that there is no other person this description describes other than Muhammad(pbuh)

You say you can show me that there will be no prophet after Jesus yet the Jews will tell you the same thing. Funny how that works lol.
I still don't understand why, despite using it for discussion and not believing in it, you use the Bible as a secondary source to affirm his status as a prophet, anchoring him in a way, in Jewish tradition, thereby, buttressing your own beliefs. The Quran should be more than sufficient, in that regard, but as is the case, you need a secondary witness from 'the distant past'.

@grateful servant
would love to watch the vid but my device is acting up.

why is Jesus the Son of God? His testimony while on trial before the Sanhedrin, Mark 14:60-65

"Then the high priest stood up before them and
asked Jesus, ‘Are you not
going to answer? What is
this testimony that these
men are bringing against
you?’ But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, ‘Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?’ ‘I am,’ said Jesus. ‘And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.’ The high priest tore his clothes. ‘Why do we need any more witnesses?’ he asked. ‘You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?’ They all condemned him as worthy of death.
 

Etagloc

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I don't get why some Muslims selectively quote the Bible. You can't just cherry-pick from the Bible. Either you believe the Bible or you don't. If you don't then why quote from what you believe is an unreliable source?
 

Kung Fu

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I still don't understand why, despite using it for discussion and not believing in it, you use the Bible as a secondary source to affirm his status as a prophet, anchoring him in a way, in Jewish tradition, thereby, buttressing your own beliefs. The Quran should be more than sufficient, in that regard, but as is the case, you need a secondary witness from 'the distant past'.
What part of me using the OT and sometimes the NT for discussion and debate purposes don't you understand? With your line of thinking people should not be reading literature works of fiction such as the Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, and etc. because they don't believe it to be real but we know that's not the case.

The Quran is more than sufficient enough for me in believe in the ONE God and who His prophets were.

Instead of deflecting and setting upo strawman fallacies why don't you address the content of my post?
 

Kung Fu

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I don't get why some Muslims selectively quote the Bible. You can't just cherry-pick from the Bible. Either you believe the Bible or you don't. If you don't then why quote from what you believe is an unreliable source?
What does one person using different works of literature in order to further a discussion have to do with believing and not not believing in something?

Again, please stop setting up strawman fallacies and actually address the content of my post. Thanks.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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You wouldn't be able to understand properly though because a - you believe that Jesus is God and b- you don't believe that Muhammad is a Messenger of God. Perhaps you are asking so that you can attempt to refute or prove otherwise? I don't feel like getting into all that here since it has been played out all over the WWW ....
In any case, for me and those like me (a Bible believing Christian who became a Quran following Muslim), those verses from the OT would be any verses that were/are fulfilled with the coming of Muhammad, such as what KF quoted.
No - dont worry about it - it was good of @Kung Fu to include the section you interpret as referring to Muhammad.

World view is like glasses and everyone wears a pair. They make some things clear and other blurry.

First, on an intellectual level, and as a possible interpretation, I can understand how you may come to your conclusions based on your world view glasses... (read - I respect you as intelligent people).

However (you knew I was going to say that ;-) the key questions for the verses you discuss are who they describe and when the events described take place.

Check out Isaiah 61...

"1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, [and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn];"

I know you don't want me to quote the NT, but this was the incident where Jesus read this section in the Synagogue and told them that he had fulfilled this in their hearing. He actually read only half the last verse and left out the bit I highlighted in bold.

Why?

Because when he came 2000 years go he came as the one described in the first verses of Isaiah 42.

Jesus is described in the OT as having both the character of a Suffering Servant and a Coming King. This is evident in his ministry and the response he got from others.

In Acts 1 after the Resurrection, the disciples are excited and ask the one they realise is the Messiah the following...

"6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

Back to Isaiah 42...

13The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.

You may interpret this as Muhammad but I would suggest to you this is less likely than the plain meaning of Jesus returning in judgement.

14I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.

I find this interesting as people have long mocked the return of Jesus as judge. "The End is Nigh" - Give me a break!?

Matthew 24 picks up on the imagery of birth pains in his description of the run up to the Tribulation.

I hope you will admit that even if you disagree, this is a possible interpretation of the different aspects of the character depicted in Isaiah 42.

What about the places though? Surely that proves it was talking about Muhammed?

Sela? Revelation 12 may hint at it...

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This is a deep study but many believe that the Jews are represented by the woman here, and that they will flee to Petra (Sela) during the Tribulation. It is here that they will recognise their Messiah (and lose their blindness), as He has not finished with them yet!

But what about Kedar in verse 11?

11Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

Let me say this in humility (I can say this as a 'nothing special' Gentile)...

Just as God has not given up on his chosen people, the descendants of Isaac, despite their rejection of the Messiah, neither has he given up on the Muslim, descendents of Abraham's first child from Hagar, Ishmael. Even in the Jewish OT, it shows God's love...

"17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. 18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. 19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.

20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. 21And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt."

I am almost certain you will reject what I say, but if the Church is taken up, (as some believe), and the promised Mahdi turns out to be the Antichrist, Gods love and grace continues even towards those that have rejected his Son until that point.

I hope I haven't caused offence, but I must tell it as I see it.
 

Kung Fu

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No - dont worry about it - it was good of @Kung Fu to include the section you interpret as referring to Muhammad.

World view is like glasses and everyone wears a pair. They make some things clear and other blurry.

First, on an intellectual level, and as a possible interpretation, I can understand how you may come to your conclusions based on your world view glasses... (read - I respect you as intelligent people).

However (you knew I was going to say that ;-) the key questions for the verses you discuss are who they describe and when the events described take place.

Check out Isaiah 61...

"1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, [and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn];"

I know you don't want me to quote the NT, but this was the incident where Jesus read this section in the Synagogue and told them that he had fulfilled this in their hearing. He actually read only half the last verse and left out the bit I highlighted in bold.

Why?

Because when he came 2000 years go he came as the one described in the first verses of Isaiah 42.

Jesus is described in the OT as having both the character of a Suffering Servant and a Coming King. This is evident in his ministry and the response he got from others.

In Acts 1 after the Resurrection, the disciples are excited and ask the one they realise is the Messiah the following...

"6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

Back to Isaiah 42...

13The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.

You may interpret this as Muhammad but I would suggest to you this is less likely than the plain meaning of Jesus returning in judgement.

14I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.

I find this interesting as people have long mocked the return of Jesus as judge. "The End is Nigh" - Give me a break!?

Matthew 24 picks up on the imagery of birth pains in his description of the run up to the Tribulation.

I hope you will admit that even if you disagree, this is a possible interpretation of the different aspects of the character depicted in Isaiah 42.

What about the places though? Surely that proves it was talking about Muhammed?

Sela? Revelation 12 may hint at it...

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This is a deep study but many believe that the Jews are represented by the woman here, and that they will flee to Petra (Sela) during the Tribulation. It is here that they will recognise their Messiah (and lose their blindness), as He has not finished with them yet!

But what about Kedar in verse 11?

11Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

Let me say this in humility (I can say this as a 'nothing special' Gentile)...

Just as God has not given up on his chosen people, the descendants of Isaac, despite their rejection of the Messiah, neither has he given up on the Muslim, descendents of Abraham's first child from Hagar, Ishmael. Even in the Jewish OT, it shows God's love...

"17And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. 18Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. 19And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.

20And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. 21And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt."

I am almost certain you will reject what I say, but if the Church is taken up, (as some believe), and the promised Mahdi turns out to be the Antichrist, Gods love and grace continues even towards those that have rejected his Son until that point.

I hope I haven't caused offence, but I must tell it as I see it.
Thanks for the response. I think you and Damien to a degree were the only people to respond without actually deflecting and building up strawman fallacies. Also, no offense taken.

However, you haven't addressed my post directly. The OT verses specifically states that he will send a prophet that will sing a new Song, make the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice, will cause the people of Sela to sing for joy, will be a warrior that fights in God's name, and will make the idol worshipers turn in shame. Now which person other than Muhammad(pbuh) do you know has done this?
 
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t'.

@grateful servant
would love to watch the vid but my device is acting up.

why is Jesus the Son of God? His testimony while on trial before the Sanhedrin, Mark 14:60-65

"Then the high priest stood up before them and
asked Jesus, ‘Are you not
going to answer? What is
this testimony that these
men are bringing against
you?’ But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, ‘Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?’ ‘I am,’ said Jesus. ‘And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.’ The high priest tore his clothes. ‘Why do we need any more witnesses?’ he asked. ‘You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?’ They all condemned him as worthy of death.
Jesus said he is the Messiah - I agree. Jesus said he is son of the Blessed One just as all of God's righteous prophets were called His sons in the OT.
 

Lady

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‘I am,’ said Jesus.
^ ^ ^ ^
These words are what Christ gave as the "Answer" and the words in so many blessed verses!
Check it out:

Exodus 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 15:5 - I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 6:47-50 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 21:6 - And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
 

Red Sky at Morning

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@Kung Fu

Let me take each piece if I can...

These events are still yet to come from a Christian perspective.

A new song - yet to be sung...

Revelation 14
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Sela and Kedar - I mentioned them but I will try to dig deeper for you..

Revelation 9 - Idols

20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Revelation 19 - Warrior

The Rider on the White Horse

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
 
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The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please. - Origen on the New Testament
 

Red Sky at Morning

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The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please. - Origen on the New Testament
"Origen of Alexandria, a third-century Christian scholar, loved Jesus, the Scriptures, and Neo-Platonic philosophy—a combination that Christians since have viewed as either the height of faithful theology or the depth of horrendous error."

http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-51/origen-model-or-heretic.html
 

Damien50

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Herbs and rivers did dry up during Muhammad's(pbuh) time hence why it's a desert.

Also, I had a feeling you would bring up the fact that I don't believe in the Bible we have to day but if you ever read anything I've said in the past, I've stated multiple times that when I do quote the OT and NT it's merealy for discussion purposes and since the only thing you Christians believe in is the Bible, it would make sense I would use it. Just because I use it doesn't mean I believe in it. You also have to remember that in my personal view the OT is a lot less corrupted than the NT.

You can say it's speaking of Jesus but verses 10-17 are clearly not about Jesus. Jesus did not sing a new song, he did not make the settlements of Kedar rejoice, he did not make the people of Sela sing, and he was not a warrior. You have two possible situations either the person verses 10-17 describes hasn't come yet or that it's Muhammad(pbuh). Now we already have a condidate that fits the description perfectly (muhammad(pbuh)) who also claimed to be a prophet and sang a new song but I find Christians will deny it because if they didn't it would shatter their belief system.

You telling me I err because there's a person who fits the description perfectly shows me you really have no evidence to the contrary. I'm not trying to win an argument here but merealy let you know that there is no other person this description describes other than Muhammad(pbuh)

You say you can show me that there will be no prophet after Jesus yet the Jews will tell you the same thing. Funny how that works lol.
As plausible as the theory might sound, there's no scriptural support for it. The context of Isaiah 40-42 doesn't support this, the verses I listed above to show that there would be no prophet after Christ don't support it, the Qur'an may(?) but the Bible doesn't.

Scripture generally confirms scripture and there's no confirmation that Isaiah 42 relates to multiple prophets let alone Muhammad.

We can end our particular discussion here with our differences and no offenses given or taken. For me though, there's no where in the bible that can confirm what you say whereas the believing Jews/rabbis knew this was reference to their messiah. I know it as well.
 
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‘I am,’ said Jesus.
^ ^ ^ ^
These words are what Christ gave as the "Answer" and the words in so many blessed verses!
Check it out:

Exodus 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 15:5 - I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 6:47-50 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 21:6 - And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Christians putting their salvation on a mistranslation. Sad.

Is Jesus Almighty God because he said, “Before Abraham was, I am.”?

by Ibn Anwar, BHsc (Hons), MCollT



In this article, we will be exploring John 8 verses 56-59 and Exodus 3, verses 13-14.

Once again, we come to one of the Johannine literature, the Gospel According to John*, to see whether Trinitarians have a good case in using it to deify Jesus and put him on the same pedestal as the Father. Specifically, we shall be looking at a saying that is attributed to Jesus, which supposedly according to Trinitarian interpretation proves Jesus’ Godhood namely, John 8:58, which says,”Before Abraham was, I am.” In order to get a better picture of what is going on in John 8:58, we should examine its immediate context which begins from verse 56 up to the last verse of the chapter, verse 59.

56. Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”

57. So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”

58. Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

59. So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

(John 8:56-59; English Standard Version)

For the Trinitarian, this is a great proof text of Jesus’ eternal pre-existence and divinity. Typically, the Trinitarian focuses on verses 57, 58 and 59 whilst ignoring the entire context of the passage and most importantly, verse 56, which basically clarifies verse 58. What is even more amazing is that Trinitarians typically side with the opponents of Jesus and in this case, they would agree with their feedback to what Jesus was saying to them. They will agree with verse 57, which to them means that Jesus was claiming pre-existence and they would wholeheartedly agree with verse 59, because that to them is indicative of Jesus claiming divinity and so the verse says that the audience picked up stones to stone him for blasphemy. Well, the only real problem with the Trinitarians siding with Jesus’ enemy’s understanding (or lack thereof) is that in the same chapter, just several verses before this key section, Jesus declares them to be the children of Satan, who are absolute liars: “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.” (John 8:44) And the truth of Jesus’ declaration or dismissal of their value as witnesses is writ large in verses 56 and 57. So, let’s have a look at these two verses again, but more carefully this time.

56. Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”

In this verse, Jesus claims that Abraham was happy that he would have the chance to see the day of Jesus and he did indeed see it and was contented. Now, look at the reply of the false witnesses.

57. So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”


The audience claims in answer to what Jesus says that he is still so young, yet he is claiming to have seen Abraham. Wait a minute, who was it that saw something? Was it Jesus or Abraham? Jesus said Abraham was seeing His day. He did not say that he saw Abraham. The seeing was done by Abraham and not by Jesus, but the false witnesses claimed the complete opposite, therefore, as Jesus said, “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.” Now that we have established that this group of evil doers are liars, how can we put any stock in their response to Jesus in verse 59, where they picked up stones to stone him? It is impossible that Jesus is claiming to be divine or Almighty God, who pre-existed his current existence in John 8, when he clearly identifies himself as just a human being several verses before, “but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.” (John 8:40) The words are rather clear: Jesus defines himself as “anthropon hos ten aletheian hymin lelaleeka” (a man who has spoken the truth) and he received the truth not from himself but “en ekousa para tou theou” (that I heard from God). So, what did Jesus mean by “Before Abraham was, I am”? If he truly said it, then it should be interpreted in light of verse 56. Abraham, as God’s elect one, foresaw Jesus’ ministry and so, “Before Abraham was, I am”, that is, Jesus’ ministry had already been foretold and planned even before Abraham and this may indicate that he is claiming superiority over Abraham in verse 56, which to the Jews would be blasphemous indeed, if Jesus wasn’t who he claimed to be, i.e., God’s messenger, and so, thinking that Jesus was a false pretender to prophethood, they picked up stones to stone him. Verse 59 then does not indicate that they thought Jesus was claiming to be Almighty God as Trinitarians inaccurately interpret, but that in context, they did not accept Jesus as a superior person to their father and patriarch, Abraham.

But what about the phrase ‘ego eimi” or “I am”? Is that not the name of God that we see in Exodus 3:14? Is Jesus not claiming to be God by saying “I am”? To most human beings, the phrase “I am” (first person pronoun and to be verb) simply means “I am”. This tautology means that “I am” in common human interaction is used as an affirmative, e.g., “Are you a student?” He answered, “I am.” It may also begin an affirmative sentence such as “I am a student.” In neither of these cases do such statements involve claims to divinity. But why do Trinitarians think that when Jesus says, “I am” in John 8:58, he is making a supernatural claim that means he is God Almighty? The reason for that is because of texts like Exodus 3:14, which is typically translated thus:

“God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.”

And the above is preceded by the following:

“Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”

In a nutshell, Exodus 3:14 is in answer to Moses’ query “What is God’s name?”. So, most Christian interpreters will say that the name of God is “I am” and so when Jesus says “I am” in John 8:58 he was in fact reminding the people of Israel of God’s name as revealed in Exodus 3:14. There are several problems with this Trinitarian interpretation as we shall see. Firstly, if by simply saying “I am”, one is claiming to be Almighty God, then the blind man in John 9:9 must have done exactly that: “Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am.”” One would be hard pressed to locate a translation that ends with “I am” in John 9:9. That translation is by my own hand based on the original Greek, but most translations either add the third person singular pronoun “he” or some even add the words “the man” to “I am”. And so, most translations would have the blind man say either “I am he” or I am the man”, neither of which is reflected in the Greek text. The original text reads, “ekeinos elegen oti ‘ego eimi” which means, “he kept saying, “I am”. Why then do the translators choose to add non-existent words to the blind man’s answer? One can only speculate, but it seems that they do not wish readers to associate this text with Jesus’ supposed unique declaration of divinity in John 8:58. Once we recognise that “Ego Eimi” in John is used by non-deities like the blind man, the Trinitarian interpretation of John 8:58 is weakened considerably and so, to avoid this, it may be that these translators pull wool of readers’ eyes by adding non-existent words to a simple answer that the man gives, which corresponds exactly to the phrase Jesus uses.

The second problem with the Trinitarian take on the verse is that if Jesus had wanted to connect himself to Exodus 3:14, then one should expect him to say it in such a way as to leave no doubt that he is referencing it. For example, instead of saying Abraham, he should have said, “Before Moses was, I am.”, because the incident in Exodus 3 has nothing to do with Abraham who died centuries before. The protagonist of Exodus 3 is Moses and Moses is speaking to God in the text in question and so, if Jesus had wanted to reference it, he should have mentioned Moses. And I do not think it is a simplistic point to argue that “Before Abraham was, I am” is nowhere close to what Exodus 3:14 as we have seen above says. Thus, one would have to stretch one’s imagination to see the connection between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14.

The third problem is that the text of Exodus 3:14 as it stands in most Christian versions of the Bible has been inaccurately translated. This is a bold claim to make, for unless one has good evidence to bear, then one may be deemed a sycophant of conspiracy theorists. I am afraid that we do have good evidence to prove this claim. The verse in question read as follows:

“vayomer ‘elohim ‘el moshe ‘eheye ‘asher ‘eheye; vayomer, koch tamar libne yisrael ‘eheye shelahany alekem”

The key words that are supposedly connected to John 8:58 are “‘eheye ‘asher ‘eheye” and “‘eheye” again towards the end of the verse. Typically, Christian produced Bibles render “‘eheye ‘asher ‘eheye” as “I am that/who I am” (The JPS is one Jewish translation that concurs with Christian translations of the verse). What we should really be looking at is the word ‘eheye’ which is supposed to mean “I am”. ‘Eheye’ is a verb and in Hebrew we do not have ‘to be’ verbs and so immediately, the translation that uses the ‘to be’ verb becomes suspect. The Jewish scholar Simi Peters corrects those translations that render ‘eheye’ as “I am” by clarifying the grammatical feature of the verb: “Whichever root meaning one would wish to assign it, eheye is a first person future conjugation of either h-y-h or h-v-h and, translated accurately, has to mean either, “I will be” or “I will be broken.” [1] And so, from Peters, we learn that the verb is in the future tense and so it should be translated as “I will be”, rather than “I am”. Likewise, the scholar Azila Talit Reisenberger explains, “‘Eheye asher ‘eheye, which corrected translates as: “I will be whoever I will be” (Ex. 3:14). In all English translations that I have read to date the verse is translated as: “I AM WHO I AM”. This can NOT be a correct and loyal translation, as the Hebrew language does not have the verb ‘to be’ in the present tense — it appears only in past and future tenses.” [2] Despite the prevalence of “I am who/that I am” in English translations, Reisenberger is not afraid to relegate them into the box of errors and confidently show that the text actually says “I will be whoever I will be”.

‘The New International Standard Bible Encyclopedia’ says:

“I will be who/what I will be…is preferable because the verb hayah [to be] has a more dynamic sense of being — not pure existence, but becoming, happening, being present — and because the historical and theological context of these early chapters of Exodus shows that God is revealing to Moses, and subsequently to the whole people, not the inner nature of His being [or existence], but his active, redemptive intentions on their behalf. He ‘will be’ to them ‘what His deeds will show Him ‘to be.’ [3]

“…the imperfect ‘eheye is more accurately translated ‘I will be what I will be,’ a Semitic idiom meaning, ‘I will be all that is necessary as the occasion will arise,’ a familiar OT idea. (cf Is 7:4,9; Ps 23).”[4]

And so, The Stone Edition of the Chumash is one translation that captures the correct meaning of the text:

“Hashem answered Moses, “I Shall Be As I Shall Be.” And He said, “So shall you say to the Children of Israel, ‘I Shall Be has sent me to you..'” [5]

At this juncture, to maintain academic honesty and fairness, we should state that even though most English translations render the verse as “I am what/that/who I am”, the English Standard Version in its footnote informs its readers that “I will be what I will be” is an acceptable alternative reading. [6] Having said that, we should point out that “I am” cannot be conflated with “I will be” as they carry different meanings, and so, the reasonable reader has to make a decision as to which reading to accept by evaluating the strength of evidence given in support of either translation.

The fact that ‘eheye’ should be rendered in the future tense is exposed by none other than those English translations that translate it as “I am” in Exodus 3:14. Just two verses prior to the verse that we have been looking at, we have the following:

“He said, “But I will be with you, and this shall be the sign for you, that I have sent you: when you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain.”” (Exodus 3:12; English Standard Version)

Notice that the verse uses “I will be”, which is what God says to Moses. If we checked the original Hebrew, the word that is translated as “I will be” in Exodus 3:12, just two verses before Exodus 3:14, is undoubtedly ‘eheye’, the exact same verb used in verse 14. All of the English translations unanimously translate it as “I will be” (in the future tense) except for Young’s Literal Translation, which consistently renders it as “I am”. We shall leave aside Young’s Literal Translation as a sore thumb living in the fringe and focus on the evident inconsistency in translation seen in all those English translations. Here perhaps, is a similar example to what we saw in John 9:9 earlier — the game of pulling wool over unwary readers’ eyes. Even though Robert Young’s translation of ‘eheye’ as “I am” is inaccurate, the other English translations should learn from his work the honest concept of consistency in translation. As Young consistently translates ‘eheye’ as “I am” in both verses 12 and 14, the other English translations should consistently translate ‘eheye’ as “I will be” in the two verses, since they begin with “I will be” for ‘eheye’ in verse 12. This simple point is put forward by the English Biblical scholar and expert in Hebrew Samuel Rolles Driver as noted by the scholar Robert Wilkinson, who himself subscribes to “I will be” as the choice translation for ‘eheye’:

“S. R. Driver also has a helpful note in defence of (the tense of) the translation “I will be” in his The Book of Exodus: Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges (Cambridge, 1953), pp. 40-41. He sees the tense not as indicating essence, but as the active manifestation of God’s existence to his people. The tense of Exodus 3:12, “Certainly I will be with thee…” surely must provide a contextual prompt for the future tense. Moreover, Driver here follows traditional Jewish exegetes, as we shall see subsequently. Rashi (1040-1105 A.D.) similarly paraphrases “I will be with them in this affliction what I will be with them in the subjugation of their future captives,” a translation which points rather to the revelation of God by his presence with his people in suffering, than it does to ontological questions.” [7]

According to Driver’s view, the future verb ‘eheye’ in both Exodus 3:12 and 3:14 does not convey an ontological conception or description of God and this is in line with Rashi’s view. No doubt Onkelos, another notable Rabbinical exegete, interprets Exodus 3:14 as revealing God’s ‘shem’ (name) [8], but we feel that Rashi and Driver are more justified in their interpretation. If ‘eheye’ is truly the name of God, then Exodus 4:15, which says, “You shall speak to him and put the words in his mouth, and I will be with your mouth and with his mouth and will teach you both what to do.” wouldn’t make much sense. The context is the appointment of Aaron as Moses’ spokesperson by God and so God says that “I will be with your mouth…I will teach you what you are to do.” It has nothing to do with God’s identity. It has everything to do with putting someone in charge by God’s decree and His instructions as to how things will be. And if it was really God’s name, then a human being has no business using it for himself, but the verb is used numerous times for and by human beings throughout the Old Testament (cf. Judges 11:9; Ruth 2:13; 2 Samuel 7:14).

In the foregoing discussion and careful examination of John 8:56-59 and Exodus 3:12-14, we have seen that the Trinitarian interpretation in hopes of deifying Jesus is founded upon translated texts that are reeked with inconsistencies. We have also meticulously examined the contexts of those texts and have come to the conclusion that they do not in any way propel a Trinitarian view. And finally, upon careful consideration of the John and Exodus texts, we do not feel that the Trinitarian has a leg to stand on when they attempt to connect the two. There is no basis or even an allusion in John 8 to support that Trinitarian connection. And the final nail in the coffin of the Trinitarian interpretation of Exodus 3:14 is hammered down by Christian translations themselves as they translate ‘eheye’ correctly in the future tense as “I will be” in Exodus 3:12.

Notes:

* In trying to prove Jesus’ divinity, Trinitarians have a tendency to begin with John, then to Paul and possibly after those two, they may go to the Synoptics. But as Prof. (Dr.) Sir Anthony Buzzard points out, an honest evaluation of the material in one’s question to determine the historical Jesus should not begin with the last of the four gospels but the first three should be looked at first, then one may proceed to John. The reason why Trinitarians are psychologically drawn to the Johannine gospel is because of its rather high christology, which in many instances, seem to them to place him on equal footing with God Almighty. The first three gospels with Mark being the first have a comparatively lower Christology and seem to have a knack at affirming and emphasising the humanity of Jesus and Trinitarians prefer to speak of his divinity instead of his actual humanity that everyone agrees to.

[1] Peters, S. (2004). Learning to Read Midrash. USA : Urim Publications. p. 168

[2] Reisenberger, A. T. (2009). Translating Spirituality into Words. In Miranda Pillay, Sarojini Nadar & Clint Le Bruyns (Eds.), Ragbag Theologies: Essays in Honour of Denise M Ackerman: A Feminist THeologian of Praxis. South Africa: Sun Press. p. 90

[3] Wright, C. J. H. (1982). Names of God. In Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Everett F. Harrison, Roland K. Harrison et. al. (Eds.), The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Volume Two. p. 507

[4] Ibid. p. 1254

[5] Scherman, N. ( 2000). Genesis. In Nosson Scherman & Meir Zlotowitz (Eds.), The Torah: Haftaros and Five Megillos with a Commentary Anthologized from the Rabbinic Writings. New York Mesorah Publications, ltd. p. 305

[6] Anon. (2003). The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. USA: Good News Publishers. p. 46

[7] Wilkinson, R. J. (2015). Tetragrammaton: Western Christians and the Hebrew Name of God: From the Beginnings to the Seventeenth Century. Leiden, The Netherlands: Brill. p. 2 fn. 6

[8] Scherman, N. Op. Cit.
 
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I guess time will tell which verses were in the original manuscripts...
It doesn't matter though, none of God's revelation remains in it - only copies of copies of copies of what may (or may not) have been what He the Most High revealed to His Prophets.

That is why God sent down His final revelation - the Quran - to clarify the truth so you don't have to speculate. May God guide me, you and anyone who loves Him with all their hearts, souls and minds, to the truth of what we differ about - Amen.
 

Kung Fu

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@Kung Fu

Let me take each piece if I can...

These events are still yet to come from a Christian perspective.

A new song - yet to be sung...

Revelation 14
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Sela and Kedar - I mentioned them but I will try to dig deeper for you..

Revelation 9 - Idols

20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Revelation 19 - Warrior

The Rider on the White Horse

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
I appreciate you efforts, Red but it still seems there is no other person other than Muhammad(pbuh) that those verses describe. On your idols bit. Medina and Mecca were full of idol worshipers. Over a hundred different idol gods being worshiped. The same can't be said about Jesus when he came to the Israelites.

The facts remain that Jesus did not make the people of Kedar rejoice, did not make the people of Sela sing let alone even travel to Medina, was not a warrior or have an army, and did not sing a new song in the sense that he came to the Jews (if you want to be really technical you could advocate Paul being the new Song in a sense), and had nothing to do with idols compared to Muhammad(pbuh). Muhammad(pbuh) rid the entire Middle East of idol worship. Now if he didn't have God's help then I don't know what to say.
 
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