Why Do You Think Jesus Is The Son Of God?

[floss]

again, it's hard for muslims to read between the lines...moving on

 

[Kung Fu]

again, it's hard for muslims to read between the lines...moving on

Coming from the guy who doesn't even know his own Bible. Ignorance is bliss

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

No problem, mate.

What does Lucian's "Philopatros" have to do with the Bible?

Lucian was a satirist who lived within 50 years of the eye witness period. He chose to mock and twist various passages of the Bible for his own humerous purposes....

I have read much more than people would bear with reading through on a forum, but consider this snippet, from a hostile writer not long after 116AD.

1 John 5:7

"7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Lucian's satire in Philopatros - 'Love of the Father", an allusion to John's theme in 1 John.

"The mighty God that rules on high, Immortal dwelling in the sky, the son of the father, spirit proceeding from the father, three in one and one in three. Think him your Zeus, consider him your God"

I would admit that entertainment has come a long way since then, but perhaps you will allow the question that if this supposed late interpolation is being mocked back then, it must make you pause for thought?

 

[Yahda]

@Karlysymon If God repeatedly implied that the sacrifice is no big deal that it is better to obey and follow his voice what is there to argue ? Why should I sit here and force the need of a sacrifice and how ? There is no kingdom, no priest.

Speaking of Aaron and priest, what priest are around today to handle sacrifices? Where is the Holy Land ?

Speaking of Passover exactly what calendar are you going by ? What moon phases ? Please don't tell me you are basing Passover off the calendar used today ?

You can't perform task that you have no knowledge of. That's basically an UNCLEAN offerings.

As the word says, sacrifices will go back up. Chill till that appointed time. Btw if sacrifices will be reinstated what's the purpose of someone fake dying for sin ? It doesn't make sense.

Btw this is what is meant to obey the voice of The Lord. As I always remind you all, God never spoke a single word in the NT. He spoke in the old. To obey his voice is to listen and carefully observe His words.....not come up with every excuse to uphold traditions and beliefs.

So ask yourself, will you do as commanded and obey what thus said the lord or will you listen to every tom dick harry peter John and Paul.....?

 

[God_Is_Formless]

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one

Three can never nor will ever be equal to one. Faith is something very simple so why complicate it as such? There's Only One God. Your father is not God. The word is not God since there are many words, aren't there? You're reading my words and i'm reading yours as well as VC's. The holy ghost or spirit dwells inside each of us. God Himself Breathed into us of His Own Unimaginable Spirit. God Has No equals.

Ascribing a son to God is a great sin and since you're receiving this message, you'd do better to give it up. Sons are ascribed to mothers and fathers, not to God, Who Always Existed when nothing else was. So God Knowing Himself Does Not Want you to say about Him that which you have no knowledge of. Just be sincere and know that God Exists and that nobody can see or even imagine Him.

Also, those miracle healings that you've seen don't mean a thing. Disease itself is a miracle. The whole world is a miracle. The atom is a miracle. God Created everything in pairs. Healthiness opposes disease. Life opposes death. Man opposes woman. There's good and evil. We've two eyes. We can choose to see good things or choose to see bad things. Only God Is Good. We're not good since we were nothing!

 

[Kung Fu]

Lucian was a satirist who lived within 50 years of the eye witness period. He chose to mock and twist various passages of the Bible for his own humerous purposes....

I have read much more than people would bear with reading through on a forum, but consider this snippet, from a hostile writer not long after 116AD.

Not long after 116AD? You do know that people have actually no idea when this was really written in terms of solid concrete fact? The general consensus among the scholarly community however pin-point it back to 963-969AD due chronological indications. What's funny is that we don't even actually know if Lucian was the actual author.

1 John 5:7

"7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Lucian's satire in Philopatros - 'Love of the Father", an allusion to John's theme in 1 John.

"The mighty God that rules on high, Immortal dwelling in the sky, the son of the father, spirit proceeding from the father, three in one and one in three. Think him your Zeus, consider him your God"

I would admit that entertainment has come a long way since then, but perhaps you will allow the question that if this supposed late interpolation is being mocked back then, it must make you pause for thought?

The concept of the Trinity, created by the Romans, was a very early concept long before it made its way in the Bible. Even before the interpolation the Church were using 1 John in order to justify the trinity even though it in no way supported it and this is where Lucian comes in working off of what the Church declared as doctrine and not the Bible in itself.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Kung Fu ...

On the question of date...

"mainly for the fact that it mentions a punitive expedition into Persia by the Romans, there are two emperors under which the Philopatros could have been written. The first is Trajan who was emperor from AD 98-117AD; and the second is Marcus Antoninus, who reigned from 161-180. Expeditions into Persia took place under both emperors, so which one was it? Critics generally plump for the latter of the two simply because it removes the witness further from the scene. But interestingly, the dialogue of the Philopatros undoes the notion by mentioning the taking by the Romans of the Persian city of Susa - the Shushan of the Book of Esther - which occurred under Trajan in the year 116. Marcus Antoninus' incursion into Persia was to descend into a farce before it had even begun, with nothing taken by Rome at all apart from a bloody nose. Thus it is the taking of Susa under Trajan which dates the Philopatros, giving it an earliest possible year of writing of AD 116, within just 46 years of the close of the Eyewitness Period during which John wrote his first epistle."

Btw for clarity, I don't build my belief in the Trinity on this particular verse. I once had discussions with JWs and they made me feel like Forrest Gump for mentioning this one! I find many examples in the Bible that support the Trinity, both clear and veiled.

This verse I had always thought might have been a late, enthusiastic interpolation based on the Liberal scholarly types I grew up around, but my reading today has cast doubt on their doubts...

 

[Karlysymon]

@Karlysymon If God repeatedly implied that the sacrifice is no big deal that it is better to obey and follow his voice what is there to argue ? Why should I sit here and force the need of a sacrifice and how ? There is no kingdom, no priest.

Speaking of Aaron and priest, what priest are around today to handle sacrifices? Where is the Holy Land ?

Speaking of Passover exactly what calendar are you going by ? What moon phases ? Please don't tell me you are basing Passover off the calendar used today ?

You can't perform task that you have no knowledge of. That's basically an UNCLEAN offerings.

I didn't say iam into sacrifices now. Inorder for me to prove or disprove your claim that Jesus is fake, i have to look into the ceremonial laws.

As the word says, sacrifices will go back up. Chill till that appointed time. Btw if sacrifices will be reinstated what's the purpose of someone fake dying for sin ? It doesn't make sense.

Oh really? You lost me on that one! You said that God said He doesn't need sacrificies (as per Psalm 50 et al) and now you say its prophecied they'll be re-instated??? Who will give that order?
Quick question: should the temple be erected, will you by any chance, trek to Jerusalem to run the Kidron red with blood, inorder to wash away your sins....i mean, you said it was prophesied?

Btw this is what is meant to obey the voice of The Lord. As I always remind you all, God never spoke a single word in the NT. He spoke in the old. To obey his voice is to listen and carefully observe His words.....not come up with every excuse to uphold traditions and beliefs.

So ask yourself, will you do as commanded and obey what thus said the lord or will you listen to every tom dick harry peter John and Paul.....?

Micah 6:8

 

[Kung Fu]

@Kung Fu ...

On the question of date...

"mainly for the fact that it mentions a punitive expedition into Persia by the Romans, there are two emperors under which the Philopatros could have been written. The first is Trajan who was emperor from AD 98-117AD; and the second is Marcus Antoninus, who reigned from 161-180. Expeditions into Persia took place under both emperors, so which one was it? Critics generally plump for the latter of the two simply because it removes the witness further from the scene. But interestingly, the dialogue of the Philopatros undoes the notion by mentioning the taking by the Romans of the Persian city of Susa - the Shushan of the Book of Esther - which occurred under Trajan in the year 116. Marcus Antoninus' incursion into Persia was to descend into a farce before it had even begun, with nothing taken by Rome at all apart from a bloody nose. Thus it is the taking of Susa under Trajan which dates the Philopatros, giving it an earliest possible year of writing of AD 116, within just 46 years of the close of the Eyewitness Period during which John wrote his first epistle."

Not one notable scholar dates it to 116AD. The earliest it gets dated back to is 361 but most of the scholars due to the events date it to the emperor Phocas (963AD). let's mention another scholarly consensus which is that the writers of the gospels were anonymous and they weren't attributed to John, Mark, and etc. until much later.

Let's leave all that aside though. I'll make it very easy for the both of us. There are numerous amounts of Greek texts out there prior to the 14th century that tell us a lot about the Bible but there is not one Greek manuscript out there that shows us John 5-7 in the way it appeared in the Textus Receptus. For Christians to make such an outlandish claim as to attribute Jesus being 3 then surely it would be stated in the Bible in numerous passages but we don't even get one. Nothing even remotely close. But if you have managed to stumble on such a Greek manuscript please share it with us. Even Christian scholars admit that this John verse is a corruption let alone the body of non-Christian scholars.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

I think the difference between some Christian scholars and Muslim ones is that within Islam, apostate scholars would be rejected (at best!) whereas in the academic field of Bible scholarship (think 'Jesus Seminar') the apostates get the promotions and the 'lower critics' get scoffed at. Sadly it has been so for some time...

 

[God_Is_Formless]

He is the son of Mary and Mary is not God. God Created Mary from two parents. He Created Adam without any parents. Jesus had no father.

 

[Kung Fu]

I think the difference between some Christian scholars and Muslim ones is that within Islam, apostate scholars would be rejected (at best!) whereas in the academic field of Bible scholarship (think 'Jesus Seminar') the apostates get the promotions and the 'lower critics' get scoffed at. Sadly it has been so for some time...

There are Islamic scholars who call out fake and fabricated hadiths all the time even when they are beneficial to Muslims but in Islam justice and truth prevail over the feelings and benefits of Muslims. Islam doesn't need outsiders to call out forgeries because Islamic scholars do it themselves. The same can't be said for Christian scholars though. They have an excuse for every interpolated verse but never provide any kind of evidence to back up what they say and this is why others need to step in to set things straight. However, the case with John 5-7 is so evidently clear that even Christian scholars have no excuses for it and have no choice but to label it as an interpolation.

Who are apostate scholars when it comes to Islam? What happens to apostate scholars within Islam and don't beat around the bush? Tell me how you really feel.

 

[grateful servant]

He is the son of Mary and Mary is not God. God Created Mary from two parents. He Created Adam without any parents. Jesus had no father.

And Hawwa (Eve) had no mother (she was created from Adam's rib)! So glorified is Allah, the Creator, the Fashioner, the All-Poweful and Supreme, Who creates what He wills, however He wills, and He alone is able to do all things.

EDIT: mistake corrected

 

[grateful servant]

There are Islamic scholars who call out fake and fabricated hadiths all the time even when they are beneficial to Muslims but in Islam justice and truth prevail over the feelings and benefits of Muslims. Islam doesn't need outsiders to call out forgeries because Islamic scholars do it themselves. The same can't be said for Christian scholars though. They have an excuse for every interpolated verse but never provide any kind of evidence to back up what they say and this is why others need to step in to set things straight. However, the case with John 5-7 is so evidently clear that even Christian scholars have no excuses for it and have no choice to label it as an interpolation.

Who are apostate scholars when it comes to Islam? What happens to apostate scholars within Islam and beat around the bush. Tell me how you really feel.

In Islam we have the Isnad - it is unique to Islam and one of the ways in which Almighty God preserved the truth by way of His righteous servants.

Isnad or chain of transmission – is a unique distinction of the Muslim Ummah, it is the means by which Muslims have verified the authenticity of religious texts (especially hadith literature) from the first generations of Islam.

There is no such thing in any other religion in the world, including Christianity.

 

[Yahda]

@Karlysymon Yes sacrifices will be reinstated and the Law will go back into full affect. Ezekiel 20:39 As for you O' house of Israel, this is what the Lord says: Each of you, go and serve your disgusting idols, but afterwards if you do not "listen to me", you will no longer be able to profane my holy name by your sacrifices and your disgusting idols. For in my holy mountain, on a high mountain of Israel, is where the whole house of Israel, all of them will serve me in the land. I will take pleasure in them there and I will require your contributions and the first fruits of your offerings, all your holy things.

41 Because of the pleasing aroma ( sacrifice/the ultimate sacrifice, aka judgment day, a day of death and destruction, blood and fire ), I will take pleasure in you when I bring you out from the people and collect you from the lands which you have been scattered and I will be sanctified among you BEFORE THE EYES OF THE NATION."

Which brings me to your last question, " will the temple be erected, will I run to Jerusalem?

Why would I run to Jerusalem when God said HE would gather his people back from the nations BEFORE THE EYES OF THE NATION ? No I'm not ever running to some man made temple on fake holy land, with fake holy people.

You will know when God's temple will and has gone up. You will know when his people have returned......because this great day will happen before your eyes.

 

[Kung Fu]

because this great day will happen before your eyes.

Do you mean it could happen in our lifetime?

 

[Yahda]

Do you mean it could happen in our lifetime?

Idk. But I do know certain things are beginning to take place. For example: Israel waking up to who they are. The word becoming unsealed, and a few other things I can't think of right now. My brain is kind of tired hence the lack of scriptures .....but you can definitely see that the stage is being set.

 

[Karlysymon]

@Karlysymon Yes sacrifices will be reinstated and the Law will go back into full affect. Ezekiel 20:39 As for you O' house of Israel, this is what the Lord says: Each of you, go and serve your disgusting idols, but afterwards if you do not "listen to me", you will no longer be able to profane my holy name by your sacrifices and your disgusting idols. For in my holy mountain, on a high mountain of Israel, is where the whole house of Israel, all of them will serve me in the land. I will take pleasure in them there and I will require your contributions and the first fruits of your offerings, all your holy things.

41 Because of the pleasing aroma ( sacrifice/the ultimate sacrifice, aka judgment day, a day of death and destruction, blood and fire ), I will take pleasure in you when I bring you out from the people and collect you from the lands which you have been scattered and I will be sanctified among you BEFORE THE EYES OF THE NATION."

Which brings me to your last question, " will the temple be erected, will I run to Jerusalem?

Why would I run to Jerusalem when God said HE would gather his people back from the nations BEFORE THE EYES OF THE NATION ? No I'm not ever running to some man made temple on fake holy land, with fake holy people.

You will know when God's temple will and has gone up. You will know when his people have returned......because this great day will happen before your eyes.

Okay...cool. Thanks for clarifying your position on that matter.

For example:
Israel waking up to who
they are. The word
becoming unsealed, and a few other things I can't
think of right now. My
brain is kind of tired hence
the lack of scriptures .....but you can definitely see that the stage is being set.

Which Israel is this, evidence please, seeing as you claimed the current occupants of the fake holy land are fake? Are they spiritual Israelites or strictly blood descendants of Abraham?

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

This thread was entitled "Why do you think Jesus is the Son of God". You asked me that question, Kung Fu, and I have done what I can to tell you some of my reasons. I have read enough threads on a similar theme to know how this plays out...

Christians cite scholars who believe, Muslims quote Bart Ehrman back, someone else reaches for an apostate Muslim, one more fires back with a fallen pastor who now teaches in Saudi etc etc.

Minds are not made up in forums but relationships get injured when tempers get frayed, intellectual integrity is called in to question.

 

[God_Is_Formless]

and I have done what I can to tell you some of my reasons.

You've done no such thing. Can you please stop lying to yourself? Jesus is the son of Mary. That should be enough to prove that Bible error.

“If you can’t explain it simply , you don’t understand it well enough.”
–Albert Einstein