Why do people like the idea of vengeance/punishment/retribution?

Nikōn

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"Just as when you are half awake and can see a dream, and know you are dreaming, and yet are apart from it, that is how God feels this universe. On one side he is awake, and on another side he is dreaming this universe. And that is how you should look upon this world. Then you will know why he created it, and will not ascribe these dream conditions to your soul. If you pass through a nightmare, you know that is no more than a bad dream. If you can live in the world in that consciousness, you will not suffer.
You won't mind then, because you will know you are dreaming. Do not pay undue attention to the passing scenes of life. You are the immortal Self (Consciousness) living only temporarily in a dream that is sometimes (imagined) to be a nightmare. That is the higher philosophy (and truth) of the mystics." -- Yogananda

"It is Knowledge that is wanted and nothing short of it. Knowledge consists in the conviction that Brahman(God) is the only reality, that everything is Brahman, that nothing other than Brahman can exist, that Brahman is the very Self of all.” -- Moksha Gita
I can quote the Upanishads if it makes you feel happy
 






Alanantic

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I can quote the Upanishads if it makes you feel happy
My parrot can do that. You actually need to understand what they mean. You & my parrot can't do that. (although I could be wrong about "Bird". She could Buddha in disguise...)
 






Nikōn

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My parrot can do that.
My point is that I am very familiar with the tradition(s), it's philosophy, it's literature and practices. You are not gonna to amaze me here. I spoke from experience and having immersed myself practically/mystically as well as philosophically, as well as having widely studied comparative philosophy, comparative theology and comparative mysticism/magic.
Your reply was merely repeating back to me the things I was refuting rather than adding any particularly fruitful response.
 






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Alanantic

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My point is that I am very familiar with the tradition(s), it's philosophy, it's literature and practices. You are not gonna to amaze me here. I spoke from experience and having immersed myself practically/mystically as well as philosophically, as well as having widely studied comparative philosophy, comparative theology and comparative mysticism/magic.
Your reply was merely repeating back to me the things I was refuting rather than adding any particularly fruitful response.
Yes, but have you had any personal experience of these "beliefs"? I have.

When I was 4 years old, I was walking down the street and I found myself, saying out loud, "I'm really here! I'm really HERE!!" Why I thought that was so profound, I don't know. But, suddenly I experienced Life as a Dream, a Lucid Dream, and I was the Dreamer. It was like I went from being an actor on a stage lost in the part, to being in the audience. I thought about telling my parents but I knew it would be a waste of time. They thought Life was REAL." -- My first experience of Truth

About 25 years later, I had the same experience. A friend of mine dropped by with some coke and good bud. We smoked it, then just sat outside in the evening just meditating in silence. I was unbelievably relaxed. I felt myself float out of my body and I Awoke in the Dream of Life again. Just like having a lucid dream where you wake up...half way, and know you can make anything happen in the Dream. I was a musician at that time and hoped to play Oakland Coliseum one day. I knew I could make that happen! But, I was afraid of what I might become to do that...timidly, I came down and back into my body. (I never played in Oakland Coliseum...)
 






Nikōn

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Yes, but have you had any personal experience of these "beliefs"? I have.
Yes, my Atheism when I was younger initially ended with a Samadhi experience. It really shook my view of existence and I am grateful of it along in my journey. What I said about Hindu metaphysics/philosophy still very much stands.
 






Alanantic

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Yes, my Atheism when I was younger initially ended with a Samadhi experience. It really shook my view of existence and I am grateful of it along in my journey. What I said about Hindu metaphysics/philosophy still very much stands.
If this is true for you, then your Path is sincerely for you. I'm a mere guard at the gate. Pass with my humble blessing. You go with God. I truly believe we are each other's teacher. Our paths cross with reasons for both of us. I definitely learned something from you. :)
 






elsbet

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Idk. Maybe some of us are just crazy in the head.
I have a psycho neighbor. She doesn’t mess with us anymore after a few revenge tours myself.

Guess we’re just crazy
From what I've read in the past about that neighbor of yours, she was getting dangerous. Anyone who is intentionally hurting and/or killing neighborhood strays /pets could easily move on to bigger prey (FAMILY).

That isn't revenge though-- it's a legitimate safety concern.
 






shankara

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Despite what they say, their "God" is a dumb, ignorant, sleepy "nothingness" which, when it comes down to it, validates rejection of morality.
Sleepy "nothingness"? Well I certainly don't see Parabrahman that way, that's a very western kind of view, sounds like the projections of the Christian orientalists when they encountered a philosophy they simply weren't equipped culturally and intellectually to understand. You say you can quote Upanishads, could you give some specific passages which suggest such a thing about the nature of God? As a Saivite (with some interest in Advaita), I wouldn't say that the Deity through whom I access reality is at all "sleepy" or "nothingy".

As for this thing about validating rejection of morality, do you think that morality only exists when a person is threatened with eternal and unending punishment for their sins? Suffering the reactions of our deeds and making the path to liberation more difficult seems like a much more reasonable level of retribution than eternal punishment. Yeah, I do actually think that people can do pretty much whatever they like, with the proviso that they should understand that what they do will carry Karma. This is a very liberating thing to understand, sets us free from all the harsh self hate and guilt about not living up to things (which really we are unable to live up to). Sure there are some overly transgressive tantric approaches, some of the new age stuff goes in the same direction, but this is by no means all of the Dharmic people.

Om Shantih
 






Nikōn

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Sleepy "nothingness"?
Yes the logical extent of Nondualistic Hindu metaphysics.

As for this thing about validating rejection of morality, do you think that morality only exists when a person is threatened with eternal and unending punishment for their sins?
You may want to rethink what you wrote if you think that the Abrahamic religions tie the nature of morality to the inevitable divine justice.
One is the nature of the interaction between things in the world, and their innate meaning;
the other is the consequence of such actions caused by none other than ourselves, whether good or bad.
Two different things.
 






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Maes17

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From what I've read in the past about that neighbor of yours, she was getting dangerous. Anyone who is intentionally hurting and/or killing neighborhood strays /pets could easily move on to bigger prey (FAMILY).

That isn't revenge though-- it's a legitimate safety concern.
Definitely self defense for me here
 






shankara

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Yes the logical extent of Nondualistic Hindu metaphysics.
So you believe the Dvaita superior to the Advaita? I was once very interested in a certain popular school of Dvaita, in the end I found them to be rather too fundamentalist and dogmatic. There are things which attract me about the Advaita at present, though I think this is coming through my Bhakti practise rather than intellectual fascination.
 






Alanantic

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Definitely self defense for me here
"If you have men who will exclude any of God's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men." -- St. Francis of Assisi
 






Alanantic

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Divine retribution is about justice, and not vengeance. If justice can be eternal, so can the recompense!
"All these sufferings are man-made and it is within man's power to put an end to them. God helps by facing man with the results of his actions and demanding that the balance should be restored. Karma is the law that works for righteousness; it is the healing hand of God." -- Nisargadatta
 






DavidSon

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Yes the logical extent of Nondualistic Hindu metaphysics...

You may want to rethink what you wrote if you think that the Abrahamic religions tie the nature of morality to the inevitable divine justice.
One is the nature of the interaction between things in the world, and their innate meaning;
the other is the consequence of such actions caused by none other than ourselves, whether good or bad.
Two different things.
Thanks for your post. Could you elaborate on the difference between morality and divine justice in the Abrahamic traditions? I would think they have a similar basis, that morality is dependent on the concept of divine justice.

I'd never realized the significance of identifying non-dualistic versus dualistic belief systems. There are examples of both in every continent and I would propose such a core philosophy is an essential characteristic that divides them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondualism

In my view non-dualist ideas like unity or God's immanence are excellent notions that cultivate hope and personal faith. But whether real or illusion, humans perceive the world in relative terms. I've stated before my belief that concepts such as justice, righteousness, holiness, etc. are inborn, not simply a result of social conditioning. To the OP I say we're comfortable with the idea of judgement because discernment is a constant, prominent attribute of the human experience. I don't think the vision of heaven/hell are so commonly believed in the Abrahamic faith just because they're affirmed by the prophets Jesus and Muhammad. There is something fundamental to our reasoning ability that weighs everything known, so a continuation of judgement in the afterlife is consistent with that understanding.

There are groups that spend a lifetime trying to escape from our "dualistic" minds but even they admit it's an extremely difficult task.
 






Tidal

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..If God is perfect, then God could never get angry.

Look at it another way- if people reject Jesus and God, they send themselves to hell, because where else is there for them to go?
Heaven is a gated community, so if they let rejecters in it'd be a case of "oops there goes the neighbourhood", and it ain't never gonna happen..:)
 






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