Why Do Christians Trust Paul?

Svabhava

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If Christians don't trust Paul, then they can't trust Peter. Peter completely supports Paul
Of course you pick Peter, one of the two pillars of the Catholic Church (Peter and Paul) who are in stark opposition to James (leader of the Nazarenes, brother of Jesus, the true way). This is predicable.
 
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What you are suggesting I'm saying is a teaching called "once saved always saved" and is taught in many Christian denominations but is not biblical. I am a biblical Christian and so my answer is a resounding no! And that is because that is the answer of the Bible too. I even have a thread here on that subject and believe most Christians disagreed with the the truth of the Bible.

No one who reads Paul's writings (I doubt you do except to use his writings against Christians) and understands them even a little can ever say that Paul taught as long one accepts Christ its okay not to go to church and to commit sins like r*pe and murder and still make it to heaven. Paul went to church and taught that it is wrong to sin as the scripture above that I posted makes clear.
he needs a fall guy to attack
and since Jesus is not it, Paul is fair game to him.

the funny thing is, the first time i read Acts and Romans, I had to read chapter 4 and 5 of the Quran for clarity on the matter and it answered me...basically i accepted Paul's arguments based on what the Quran said.

Yet there are many muslims who go on google, find these dodgy websites, glance past everything, get drawn into the 'islam vs christianity' theme (because it's all ego anyway) and dont do their own independant research.
 

billy t

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1) Ibn Katheer does not take from that tafseer ATTRIBUTED to Ibn Abbas. SubhaanAllah. I know that tafseer is fabricated this is well known but that doesn't mean every statement of Ibn Abbas came from that tafseer. Ibn Katheer has one of the most trusted books of tafseer and is one of the most accurate. Anyone who speaks ill of Ibn Katheer is likely an innovator. Ibn Katheer quotes directly from early sources with chains of transmission back to the companions. He does not quote from the source you mentioned which shows you are completely ignorant. Only an ignoramus would make such a basic error.

2) Who explained it that way? What are you trying to say that Allah is talking about those who follow Paul???! Are you serious? WHAT scholar. Show me. Don't just say scholars said this and that cite you sources.

3) You said "it is necessary to understand the bible, christian and jewish history, to understand the Quran better". Yet It was narrated from the Messenger (salAllahu alaiyhi wasallam) that he saw part of the Torah in the hand of ‘Umar; he became angry and said: “Are you doubting, O son of al-Khattaab? I have brought to you a message that is bright and pure, and if Moosaa were alive he would have no choice but to follow me.” Furthermore Allah said "we revealed a clear book". And "this is the book about which there is no doubt". And "we revealed the book to you (oh Muhammad) in order that you may explain to mankind what was revealed to them". Yet according to you we must read the bible to understand it! Wow just wow.

4) What do Pauline Christians believe? That Jesus is God and one of three? Correct? Are you saying they are believers? I am just checking that I am not misunderstanding you because if you believe this then it is a very dangerous belief to hold.

5) The Qur'aan does not confirm the authenticity of the Bible. It confirms what was revealed to Jesus not what remains today with changes, additions and deletions etc. Anyone who claims to be Muslim and believes that the Bible that exists today is the word of God has uttered a statement of kufr.

6) You said "and likewise the prophet SAW placed the Torah on a cusion and said to it "I BELIEVE IN THEE"
so of course your original point is totally wrong.. " Where???? Bring your proof! Show me! Don't just attribute stuff to the Prophet salallahu 'alaiyhi wasallam bring your evidence. The Prophet salAllah alaiyhi wasallam said "whoever lies upon me let him take his seat in the hellfire". so bring your evidence if you are truthful. The Old Testament says Jacob wrestled with God and God said "let me go" and Jacob said "only if you bless me". Whoever believes this story is a murtad.

7) You said "still, what point were you even trying to make? you were attacking Paul and i used the Quran to support him..only for you to quote a fabricated source claiming it's 'ibn abbas' (showcasing your own ignorance), to contradict the Quran itself". doesn't Paul say Jesus died for our sins in multiples places in his letters???? Is that not enough to show he was upon misguidance from an Islamic perspective?

8) If you believe those who adhere to the teachings of Paul are beleivers then you have uttered a statement of kufr.
 
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billy t

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The assault on the character of St. Paul is part of the Judaizing heresy and given that the biggest Judaizing religion to come out of Arabia is Islam, it is not surprising that this heresy is constantly slandering the Apostle to the Gentiles. Moreover, St. Paul was someone who repented of his persecutions, traveled the Roman Empire turning pagans to the knowledge of the True God and made himself the target of persecution and was killed for his faith. The lecherous pedophilic prophet of the Muslims on the other hand raided and murdered pagan tribes. This alone makes St. Paul more trustworthy than Muhammad, but on the evidence of the supernatural, again the Muslim criticism falls in the realm of fantasy since they uphold the preposterous belief of Muhammad's revelations as told in the Hadiths: that he was met by an apparition that terrorized him and made him suicidal but because his heretical Christian relatives convinced him it was Gabriel, then Muhammad became a "messenger" following his Judaizing, anti-Christian religion for the spiritually handicapped.
Are you really saying Islam supports Jews? You have to be kidding right? I am sure I don't have to quote all the narrations in the Qur'aan and Sunnah against the Jews. For example "be different from the Jews pray with your shoes on". Islam is "judaizing". I swear some people here just type anything.
 

billy t

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Nevertheless Muhammad was not an apostle nor a disciple.
The adhaan is called for prayers all around the word. Every time we make the call to prayer we say "Muhammad is the Messenger of God". Because of the different times in the world there is basically never a time where the Prophet salAllahu 'alaiyhi wasallams name is not being mentioned. Allah said he would be praised and that is true to this day. Everytime his name is mentioned muslims say salAllahu 'alaiyhi wasallam, yet you think he is not a Prophet? I would think long and hard about that because you will have a rude awakening when you stand in front of your Creator on the Day of Judgement if you continue to reject his message. Those who mock him are only harming themselves and will be humilated like those who mocked him in the past.

There are many prophecies of the Prophet salAllahu alaiyhi wasallam that came true but that is another topic for another day. Take care bro.
 
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phipps

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Just to explain further what Paul meant by "not under law."

Paul says in Romans 6:14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." But then in verse 15 he says, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!" Paul makes it clear that just because Christians are under grace does not mean they can go on to sin and break the law.

So if being under grace does not exempt us from keeping the law, what does Paul mean by saying that Christians are not under the law? He gives that answer in Romans 3:19. “Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” Here Paul equates being under the law with “being guilty before God.” In other words, those who are under the law are guilty of breaking it and are under the condemnation of it. This is why Christians are not under it. They are not breaking it—not guilty and condemned by it. Therefore, they are not under it, but are under the power of grace instead. Later in his argument, Paul points out that the power of grace is greater than the power of sin. This is why he states so emphatically in Roman 6:14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." Grace overrules the authority of sin, grace gives power to obey God’s law. This is the reason why true Christians are not under the law’s guilt and condemnation and also why Paul states that they will not continue to sin.

Here is an example that I've posted before to explain what Paul meant about not being under law but under grace.

Suppose a murderer has been sentenced to death in the electric chair. Waiting for the execution the man would truly be under the law in every sense of the word—under the guilt, under the condemnation, under the sentence of death, etc. Just before the execution date the governor reviews the condemned man’s case and decides to pardon him. In the light of extenuating circumstances the governor exercises his prerogative and sends a full pardon to the prisoner. Now he is no longer under the law but under grace. The law no longer condemns him. He is considered totally justified as far as the charges of the law are concerned. He is free to walk out of the prison and no policeman can lay hands upon him. But now that he is under grace and no longer under the law, can we say that he is free to break the law? Indeed not! In fact, that pardoned man will be doubly obligated to obey the law because he has found grace from the governor. In gratitude and love he will be very careful to honour the law of that state which granted him grace. Is that what the Bible says about pardoned sinners? “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law” (Romans 3:31). Here is the most explicit answer to the entire problem. Paul asks if the law is nullified for us just because we have had faith in Christ’s saving grace. His answer is that the law is established and reinforced in the life of a grace-saved Christian.

The truth of this is so simple and obvious that it should require no repetition. Have you ever been stopped by a policeman for exceeding the speed limit? It is an embarrassing experience, especially if you know you are guilty. But suppose you really were hurrying to meet a valid emergency, and you pour out your convincing explanation to the police-man as he writes your ticket. Slowly he folds the ticket and tears it up. Then he says, “All right, I’m going to pardon you this time, but …” Now what do you think he means by that word “but”? Surely he means, “but I don’t want to ever catch you speeding again.” Does this pardon (grace) open the way for you to disobey the law? On the contrary, it adds compelling urgency to your decision not to disobey the law again.

Link.
 

TokiEl

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The adhaan is called for prayers all around the word. Every time we make the call to prayer we say "Muhammad is the Messenger of God".
Muhammad is the messenger of the god of this world.



2 Corinthians 4 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.


Galatians 1 6I am amazed how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse! 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be under a curse!




I would think long and hard about that because you will have a rude awakening when you stand in front of your Creator on the Day of Judgement if you continue to reject his message.
John 3 16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


John 5 22Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son.
 
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TokiEl

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Here is an example that I've posted before to explain what Paul meant about not being under law but under grace.

Suppose a murderer has been sentenced to death in the electric chair. Waiting for the execution the man would truly be under the law in every sense of the word—under the guilt, under the condemnation, under the sentence of death, etc. Just before the execution date the governor reviews the condemned man’s case and decides to pardon him. In the light of extenuating circumstances the governor exercises his prerogative and sends a full pardon to the prisoner. Now he is no longer under the law but under grace. The law no longer condemns him. He is considered totally justified as far as the charges of the law are concerned. He is free to walk out of the prison and no policeman can lay hands upon him. But now that he is under grace and no longer under the law, can we say that he is free to break the law? Indeed not! In fact, that pardoned man will be doubly obligated to obey the law because he has found grace from the governor. In gratitude and love he will be very careful to honour the law of that state which granted him grace. Is that what the Bible says about pardoned sinners? “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law” (Romans 3:31). Here is the most explicit answer to the entire problem. Paul asks if the law is nullified for us just because we have had faith in Christ’s saving grace. His answer is that the law is established and reinforced in the life of a grace-saved Christian.
Yes this is right.
 

TokiEl

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Christians are commanded to establish the law.


What law ? The law of love God and our neighbour.

And that's what the Ten Commandments are all about.


Love God and our neighbour.

That's it and that's that.


The shepherde has spoken.
 

Todd

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Christian's should not trust any man except Christ himself. For any Christian to put faith or trust in Paul or any other man is contradicting even the words of Paul himself. Christians conveniently choose to ignore or address the fact that multiple times Paul explicitly said his words were his own and not directly from God. If Paul believed his letters were to be considered the word of God, there is no way he would have dared to inject his own thoughts into his letters, even with a disclaimer. No true prophet would dare taint the word of God with his own thoughts.

Peter's words about Paul are hardly an endorsement of his writings as the word of God. If anything they are diplomatically postured subtle jabs, warning people of the dangers of considering Paul's writing as equal to the word of God.
 

TokiEl

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The Word of God is not what Peter said nor what Paul said and not even what Jesus said... the Word of God is Jesus Christ.
 

linen

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Jesus said he would build his church on Peter, not Paul. The Christian church doctrines are all about Paul's letters and beliefs which has nothing to do with Peter. He was a Pharisee known Saul who was traveling to Damascus to find and imprison Christians when the light from heaven flashed around him.
 

phipps

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Jesus said he would build his church on Peter, not Paul. The Christian church doctrines are all about Paul's letters and beliefs which has nothing to do with Peter. He was a Pharisee known Saul who was traveling to Damascus to find and imprison Christians when the light from heaven flashed around him.
Jesus has never said He would build His Church on anyone, not even the apostles let alone Peter. Christ's Church cannot be built on any human. Christ's Church is built on Him, the Chief cornerstone and rock. He is the foundation of the Church (1 Corinthians 3:11, 1 Corinthians 10:1-4, Ephesians 2:19-20). Christ is the Head of the Church.

Peter even acknowledges in 1 Peter 2:4-8 that Jesus is the Chief cornerstone/rock on which the church was/is built even though He was rejected.

Also Peter wrote about Paul. He wrote in 2 Peter 3:15-16, "...and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." Peter admits that Paul writes on difficult things but he says the problem is not with Paul's writings. The problem is with the readers. Unstable, untaught people that twist the writings of Paul. These people discredit his writings which are the inspired Word of God. That is why they are in the Bible.
 

billy t

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As I pointed out before, the Quran tells us that Allah caused the BELIEVERS from bani israel (as in the ones who followed Jesus) to become victorious/uppermost over the disbelievers. By extention that exhonorates Paul, since it was his doctrine that became dominant. So if you think he was under demonic influence then it doesnt say much about the power of God.

Christianity was amended later through the trinitarian doctrine. You can criticise that.


Another thing is that the Quran confirms the legitimacy of the Injeel in the present tense (as in, what they had with them at the time of the prophet himself).
if paul's epistles are the most influential part of the NT, then why didnt the Quran directly address that?



"As for your claim that the Prophet salAllahu alaiyhi wasallam was inspired by a demon or whatever then that is ridiculous. "

let me make it clear, i didnt say that at all...i was applying your own reasoning to the christian argument against islam.
my point is those arguments are shit.
Did Paul believe Jesus was God and died for the sins of mankind? Yes or no?
 

billy t

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Just to explain further what Paul meant by "not under law."

Paul says in Romans 6:14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." But then in verse 15 he says, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!" Paul makes it clear that just because Christians are under grace does not mean they can go on to sin and break the law.

So if being under grace does not exempt us from keeping the law, what does Paul mean by saying that Christians are not under the law? He gives that answer in Romans 3:19. “Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” Here Paul equates being under the law with “being guilty before God.” In other words, those who are under the law are guilty of breaking it and are under the condemnation of it. This is why Christians are not under it. They are not breaking it—not guilty and condemned by it. Therefore, they are not under it, but are under the power of grace instead. Later in his argument, Paul points out that the power of grace is greater than the power of sin. This is why he states so emphatically in Roman 6:14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." Grace overrules the authority of sin, grace gives power to obey God’s law. This is the reason why true Christians are not under the law’s guilt and condemnation and also why Paul states that they will not continue to sin.

Here is an example that I've posted before to explain what Paul meant about not being under law but under grace.

Suppose a murderer has been sentenced to death in the electric chair. Waiting for the execution the man would truly be under the law in every sense of the word—under the guilt, under the condemnation, under the sentence of death, etc. Just before the execution date the governor reviews the condemned man’s case and decides to pardon him. In the light of extenuating circumstances the governor exercises his prerogative and sends a full pardon to the prisoner. Now he is no longer under the law but under grace. The law no longer condemns him. He is considered totally justified as far as the charges of the law are concerned. He is free to walk out of the prison and no policeman can lay hands upon him. But now that he is under grace and no longer under the law, can we say that he is free to break the law? Indeed not! In fact, that pardoned man will be doubly obligated to obey the law because he has found grace from the governor. In gratitude and love he will be very careful to honour the law of that state which granted him grace. Is that what the Bible says about pardoned sinners? “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law” (Romans 3:31). Here is the most explicit answer to the entire problem. Paul asks if the law is nullified for us just because we have had faith in Christ’s saving grace. His answer is that the law is established and reinforced in the life of a grace-saved Christian.

The truth of this is so simple and obvious that it should require no repetition. Have you ever been stopped by a policeman for exceeding the speed limit? It is an embarrassing experience, especially if you know you are guilty. But suppose you really were hurrying to meet a valid emergency, and you pour out your convincing explanation to the police-man as he writes your ticket. Slowly he folds the ticket and tears it up. Then he says, “All right, I’m going to pardon you this time, but …” Now what do you think he means by that word “but”? Surely he means, “but I don’t want to ever catch you speeding again.” Does this pardon (grace) open the way for you to disobey the law? On the contrary, it adds compelling urgency to your decision not to disobey the law again.

Link.
You said quote: "Suppose a murderer has been sentenced to death in the electric chair. Waiting for the execution the man would truly be under the law in every sense of the word—under the guilt, under the condemnation, under the sentence of death, etc. Just before the execution date the governor reviews the condemned man’s case and decides to pardon him. In the light of extenuating circumstances the governor exercises his prerogative and sends a full pardon to the prisoner. Now he is no longer under the law but under grace. The law no longer condemns him. He is considered totally justified as far as the charges of the law are concerned. He is free to walk out of the prison and no policeman can lay hands upon him. But now that he is under grace and no longer under the law, can we say that he is free to break the law? Indeed not! "

Thanks for confirming that Paul's doctrine is preposterous. You just confirmed that its like a murderer getting of scotch free and being able to walk free because he is "under grace". Oh but wait guys that doesn't mean he is able to do what he wants. No, of course not! However if the man does be naughty and murders again then the judge can just pardon him so no big deal.......What a foolish belief! You might as well just do what you want because you are "under grace" and God can pardon you.
 

Tidal

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Why Do Christians Trust Paul?
Well he took a lot of hassle as he went around spreading the gospel, so his street cred is pretty good..:)

Paul said- "I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again.
Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one.
Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea,
I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles, in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea, and in danger from false brothers.
I have laboured and toiled and have often gone without sleep, I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked.
Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches.
Who is weak, and I do not feel weak?"- 2 Cor 11:23-29

"That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong" (2 Cor 12:10)
 
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Tidal

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I don't like Paul.
I never liked Paul.
I don't think he liked women much.
If you're a woman or feminist I'd have thought you'd have liked Paul because he wasn't a bit sexist and said men and women were absolutely equal..:)-
Paul said- "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28 )
 
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Tidal

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Paul is all about how Paul thinks christians should behave.
And he is never happy about any of them.

There were bad christians around (just as there still are today) so Paul had to do some ass-kicking to straighten them out..:)-
Paul wrote to one bunch-
"I already gave you a warning when I was with you the second time. I now repeat it while absent: On my return I won't spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others" (2 Cor 13:2)
 

Tidal

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..Paul had many bad traits such as deceiving like a politician and contradicting the teachings of Jesus..
"Deceive" is too strong a word, all he did was use different words when talking to different people. For example if I was talking to schoolkids and they asked me "Who was Paul?", I'd reply "At first he was a bounty hunter and hitman named Saul on the payroll of the snooty Jewish priests whose job was to round up Christians for punishment, but he later became a Christian himself and changed his name to Paul"
See, you have to tailor your words to suit your audience..:)

And exactly what teachings of Jesus are you saying he contradicted?
On the contrary, he had to remind people to follow Jesus and not himself..:)
"Some say 'I follow Paul'... but was Paul crucified for you?" (1 Cor 1:12)
 
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