Bent8484
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Why did God kill?
- Thread starter phipps
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The God of the Bible is Jesus, the Son. Whenever there was any communication with people it was always with Jesus. Jesus said no one has ever seen or heard the Father (John 1:18, 5:37, 6:46).
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Exodus 33.11
God and Genocide
Is there any justification for genocide by God in the Old Testament? Let us examine a worst-case example of the problem: the slaughter of Canaanites in the Old Testament. Here generations of skeptics have found ample ammunition in their case against God. How could God command His people to wipe out entire cities of men, women, and children simply because they happened to hold different beliefs?
Consider the following thought experiment: Suppose that you were out walking one day and heard agonizing screams coming from inside a house across the road. Upon entering, you saw a boy being held down on a table by several teenagers while a muscular man, his back toward you, was sawing through the boy's leg with a carpenter's saw. They boy was screaming in pain. What would you think of this man?
Suppose now that, upon inquiry, you discovered that the man was the boy's father; that he was also a physician; that he had just arrived at his home in this primitive and isolated village to find his son dying of acute septicemia of the leg; that no sedatives were available; and that tears were streaming down the father's face. Now what do you think? A full knowledge of the situation makes quite a difference!
In the case of Numbers 31, I suggest that if we knew all of the facts, that which at first seems a cruelty would be seen as a mercy, as in the case of the amputating physician. Consider the facts we know: If one accepts the premise of a literal hell and the Bible's evaluation of the apparently irremediable wickedness of the Canaanites and archaeology has confirmed the moral bankruptcy of Canaanite culture-then God's authorization of their total destruction is justifiable, even merciful, in that it entailed the least possible amount of suffering for the smallest number of individuals when seen in the light of eternity. Had the Canaanites been allowed to live, they not only would have continued in sin, resulting in additional suffering in hell someday, but they would have begotten offspring who would have ended up in the same place. In addition, they would have corrupted the Israelites. God told His people to terminate the Canaanites' lives in order to prevent all of this. It was a case of less suffering now or greater suffering later.
Difficult times impose difficult questions upon us. In times of war, to end the conflict more quickly, even the defenders of liberty, justice, and righteousness have made decisions that brought suffering or death to the innocent. If great leaders and good men sometimes find it necessary to let the righteous die with the guilty for the achievement of a greater good in the end, then has the Creator Himself no right to discriminatingly (see Genesis 18) destroy evil societies?
Hell was originally intended only for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41), but those who have chosen to share Satan's character must share his punishment. It has been suggested that God will leave the wicked to destroy one another, but would a just God leave the weak at the mercy of the strong? How then could the degree of suffering be proportional to the amount of light (Luke 12:46-48)? According to Matthew 10:28, human beings can "kill the body but cannot kill the soul"; only God can "destroy both soul and body in hell." Hell is a supernatural extinction of existence; it is God's retributive wrath against sin.
The doctrine of hell can be understood only as a manifestation of God's retributive justice, in which the sinner is punished until he receives the exact amount of pain he deserves in the light of his crimes. Jesus warned those who failed to make things right with the judge that they would never get out of prison till they had "paid the last penny" (Matthew 5:26, RSV). The unforgiving servant was delivered to the tortures, "till he should pay all his debt" (Matthew 18:34, RSV). The severity of the punishment depends on the amount of light a person has had (Luke12:47-48).
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Is there any justification for genocide by God in the Old Testament? Let us examine a worst-case example of the problem: the slaughter of Canaanites in the Old Testament. Here generations of skeptics have found ample ammunition in their case against God. How could God command His people to wipe out entire cities of men, women, and children simply because they happened to hold different beliefs?
Consider the following thought experiment: Suppose that you were out walking one day and heard agonizing screams coming from inside a house across the road. Upon entering, you saw a boy being held down on a table by several teenagers while a muscular man, his back toward you, was sawing through the boy's leg with a carpenter's saw. They boy was screaming in pain. What would you think of this man?
Suppose now that, upon inquiry, you discovered that the man was the boy's father; that he was also a physician; that he had just arrived at his home in this primitive and isolated village to find his son dying of acute septicemia of the leg; that no sedatives were available; and that tears were streaming down the father's face. Now what do you think? A full knowledge of the situation makes quite a difference!
In the case of Numbers 31, I suggest that if we knew all of the facts, that which at first seems a cruelty would be seen as a mercy, as in the case of the amputating physician. Consider the facts we know: If one accepts the premise of a literal hell and the Bible's evaluation of the apparently irremediable wickedness of the Canaanites and archaeology has confirmed the moral bankruptcy of Canaanite culture-then God's authorization of their total destruction is justifiable, even merciful, in that it entailed the least possible amount of suffering for the smallest number of individuals when seen in the light of eternity. Had the Canaanites been allowed to live, they not only would have continued in sin, resulting in additional suffering in hell someday, but they would have begotten offspring who would have ended up in the same place. In addition, they would have corrupted the Israelites. God told His people to terminate the Canaanites' lives in order to prevent all of this. It was a case of less suffering now or greater suffering later.
Difficult times impose difficult questions upon us. In times of war, to end the conflict more quickly, even the defenders of liberty, justice, and righteousness have made decisions that brought suffering or death to the innocent. If great leaders and good men sometimes find it necessary to let the righteous die with the guilty for the achievement of a greater good in the end, then has the Creator Himself no right to discriminatingly (see Genesis 18) destroy evil societies?
Hell was originally intended only for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41), but those who have chosen to share Satan's character must share his punishment. It has been suggested that God will leave the wicked to destroy one another, but would a just God leave the weak at the mercy of the strong? How then could the degree of suffering be proportional to the amount of light (Luke 12:46-48)? According to Matthew 10:28, human beings can "kill the body but cannot kill the soul"; only God can "destroy both soul and body in hell." Hell is a supernatural extinction of existence; it is God's retributive wrath against sin.
The doctrine of hell can be understood only as a manifestation of God's retributive justice, in which the sinner is punished until he receives the exact amount of pain he deserves in the light of his crimes. Jesus warned those who failed to make things right with the judge that they would never get out of prison till they had "paid the last penny" (Matthew 5:26, RSV). The unforgiving servant was delivered to the tortures, "till he should pay all his debt" (Matthew 18:34, RSV). The severity of the punishment depends on the amount of light a person has had (Luke12:47-48).
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A Freeman
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Jesus is NOT God, as the Bible -- through the mouth of Jesus -- quite clearly states.
John 10:29 MY FATHER, which gave [them] me, IS GREATER THAN ALL; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, MY GOD, MY GOD, why hast Thou forsaken me? (Eno. 89:20; Psalm 22; Isaiah 52:13 to 54:1; Sura 4:157-8.)
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY FATHER, and your Father; AND [to] MY GOD, and your God.
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in The Temple of MY GOD, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of MY GOD, and the name of the city of MY GOD, [which is] New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from MY GOD: and [I will write upon him] my NEW name.
Matthew 6:9-10
6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be THY name.
6:10 THY Kingdom come. Thy Will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; NEITHER HE THAT IS SENT GREATER THAN HE THAT SENT HIM.
Exactly. And even though Father (God) spoke to Moses just as we speak to each other, Moses NEVER saw our INVISIBLE (to human eyes) God.
Exodus 33:11 And the "I AM" SPOKE unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the Tabernacle.
Exodus 33:18-20
33:18 And he (Moses) said, I beseech Thee, show me Thy glory.
33:19 And He (God) SAID, I will make all My Goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the "I AM" before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
33:20 And He SAID, Thou canst not see My face: for there shall no man see Me, and live.
Deuteronomy 4:12 And the "I AM" SPOKE unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye HEARD the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only [ye heard] a voice.
Thank you. I should have put up the whole face to face verse.
I thought I had!
My copy paste skill must have been taking a break.
A Freeman
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You're certainly welcome.
A Freeman
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The full knowledge of the situation though is that there is spiritual LIFE beyond this human existence. We are, in fact, spiritual-Beings (Souls), that have been temporarily “locked” inside one of these human animal bodies so that we can be taught and trained how to be good, like God (Gen. 1:26, Matt. 5:48).
A human + a (spirit)Being = a human+Being (Gen. 2:7).
IF that is correctly understood, then everything that Father (God) has done makes perfect sense, because it is always done for the good of every individual Soul as well as for the greater, common good.
The reason for the slaughter of the Canaanites is easy to understand from a spiritual perspective, even though it's impossible for humans to grasp.
The Canaanites were among the most corrupted, evil people on Earth at that time, engaging in sexual exhibitionism, homosexuality, paedophilia, human child sacrifice and countless other criminal activities. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah.
The Israelites were meant to be a holy, obedient (and thus peculiar) people to God (Deut. 14:2), to serve as His demonstration people to the rest of the world, of how wonderful it is to live by God's Law. Obviously if they intermingled and interbred with the Canaanites, they would have similarly been corrupted by the Canaanites' abominable, heathen practices.
IF the Israelites would have obeyed God and completely eradicated the Canaanite humans, it would have liberating the Souls that were trapped in those evil, human bodies. All of those Souls could then have been placed (incarnated) inside of new human bodies descended from Israelites, so they could be raised in loving and caring families, learning the values and morals that are only possible through reading, studying and keeping The Law.
Instead, the Israelites left some of the Canaanites alive, which not only was detrimental to the Souls inside of those evil, Canaanite bodies, but also corrupted Israel, exactly as God warned.
The same is true of the Egyptians who drowned in the Red Sea, chasing after the Israelites. All of those Souls (spirit-Beings) were sent back to incarnate other human bodies, giving them the best opportunity to come to their senses.
We all have had MANY human lifetimes over the past 6000 years to learn “self” control of both the human and the Being, and yet we are all still here, precisely because we never learned the very simple and immutable teaching of the Bible: TRUST AND OBEY GOD ONLY.
It's actually impressive in a way, that Lucifer/Satan/Iblis (the devil) is still able to deceive so many (including billions of “Christians” and “Muslims”) into believing that the God of the Old Covenant isn't the same God of Jesus, and the same God of Christ (Whom incarnated Jesus) and the same God of Muhammad, given there is only ONE God: The Most High. And His Name is “I AM” (the self-existing One).
As above please. If it's correctly understood that the spirit-Beings (Souls) inside of those evil, Canaanite and Midianite bodies would be sent back down again, to incarnate new human bodies based upon the good that each individual Soul had done, and thus had earned a right to be in eternal time, then it is easy to see Father's Justice, Mercy and Patience.
All of the training here on Earth is for the Faithful, i.e. the Souls that will turn back to God, and trust Him implicitly (like little children trust their loving parents), thereby avoiding the fate that awais the devil and his angels (Rev. 12:7-9, Matt. 7:11, 25:41, Luke 9:55): THE FIRE (Hell-Fire, the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, the Fire whose fuel is men and stones, the Pit, etc.) .
The angels referred to in Matthew 25:41 include everyone on Earth that still hasn't learned to crucify the “self”, so they can do God's Will only. We were all cast out of heaven to the Earth (hell) for our treason/fighting with Satan against Father (God) and Prince Michael (Christ), because we chose to listen to that liar instead of to the Truth that is, and always has been, with God and His Word.
Revelation 12:7-9
12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer); and the dragon fought and his angels,
12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out to the Earth, and his angels (you - Luke 9:55) were cast out with him (Matthew 25:41).
The only thing that prevents someone from seeing and accepting the above revelation from Christ about the real reason for human life on planet Earth is our own egos (the “self”). It is the “self” which Satan uses to get us to do his bidding instead of doing Father's Will.
We are already in hell (Earth), and have been here for thousands of Earth years. To think that God—Who is immortal, lives in eternity, is merciful and long-suffering that all might come to repentance—only gives a miserly seventy years (or less) out of the whole of eternity to get it right, or burn (in The Fire – the second death), is not only totally illogical and an insult to God, but further proof of not learning what NEEDS to be learned: the TRUTH about reincarnation (the hereafter). How can giving us seventy years (or less) out of eternity be considered long-suffering? Six thousand years is what God considers long-suffering.
The only way out is to find the “strait” gate, and learn The Narrow Way, by becoming enough like Jesus that we can be trusted to be released from this prison planet, back out into the universe, to rejoin our real (spiritual) family and friends.
All others will find themselves in The Fire (hell-fire) on the Last Day, when we will all be judged according to our works, in this human lifetime and all of the previous ones.
I told you before that you and I don't have much in common because you are an omnist. You claim to be Christian and other religions all together that is contrary to the Bible. Your beliefs are mixed up and you are a confused person in your beliefs. The Bible tells us, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephesians 4:5-6). You cannot believe in the God of the Bible and believe in other gods too. That is idolatry and the first commandment tells us, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:3).
He is and the Bible is clear about that unless one picks and chooses scripture to suit their false doctrine like you. The whole Bible is about Jesus. Remember the Bible does not contradict itself so I am going to show you actual scripture that says Jesus is God because He forgave sins which only God can do, He accepted worship, He is eternal, He is Yahweh, He created this World and everything in it etc.
Jesus forgives sins. Only God forgives sins (Isaiah 43:25).
"When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.” And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house” (Mark 2:5-11).
Jesus is “the Word,” is God the creator and was human.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" (John 1:1-3, 14).
"For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16).
Jesus has power to give life, and even resurrected Himself.
"No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father” (John 10:18).
"Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live" (John 11:25).
Jesus is called “My God”.
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).
Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead.
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9).
Jesus is God and anointed by God. The Father calls Jesus God.
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions” (Hebrews 1:8-9).
Both Father and Son are “Alpha and Omega.”
Father
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).
" And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts" (Revelation 21:6).
Son
"And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death" (Revelation 1:17-18).
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly” (Revelation 22:12-13, 20).
Jesus is the I Am.
"And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you’ ” (Exodus 3:14).
"Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by" (John 8:58-59).
See also, Isaiah 43:10-13, Micah 5:2.
Jesus is called the everlasting Father.
"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6).
Jesus’ throne is everlasting.
"But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom" (Hebrews 1:8).
Like God the Father, Jesus is worshipped on earth.
"And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him" (Matthew 28:9).
Jesus is self-existent.
John 1:1–4; 14:6; only God is self-existent, Psalm 90:2.
Jesus is worshipped by angels and in heaven.
Hebrews 1:6, Revelation 5:8-9, 12-14.
Jesus knows the thoughts of man. The Bible teaches that only God knows the thoughts of a man’s heart.
1 Kings 8:39, John 1:48, John 2:25
Christians call on the name of Jesus.
1 Corinthians 1:2
Christians can pray in the name of Jesus.
John 14:14
Stephen prays to Jesus.
Acts 7:58-59
Jesus is Yahweh.
Exodus 13:21; Isaiah 40:3, 6:1-3; Matthew 3:1, 3; John 12:37-41; 1 Corinthians 10:4.
Abraham, Jacob, and Moses saw Jesus.
Genesis 17:1, 22; 35:9-13; Exodus 6:2-3; John 6:46
Jesus/Yahweh is pierced.
Zechariah 12:10, 1, 8; John 19:37
No Christian who is well versed in the Bible can ever say Jesus is not God. The Bible is clear beyond doubt that He is God. From prophecy, to His words and actions, to the angels worshipping Him in heaven etc Jesus is God. He does things only God can do because He is God. By Jesus saying that the Father is His God, by Him praying to the Father and through the Father doesn't mean Jesus is not God. It means Jesus has a different role to play than that of the Father and He is humble.
On top of that Jesus came to be our example and showed us through His life how to live a life completely dedicated to the Father. When He was on earth, Jesus was completely human and relied on God the Father for everything as should we. The most important thing is that only God could have died on the cross for our sins so we could be saved. No created being could have done that.
This is the truth of the Bible when studied as it should be in context. Your other "faiths" have corrupted you from the truth of the Bible. You are free to believe whatever you want as all human beings are, because God created us all with freedom of choice, but in the Word of God, Jesus Christ is God and is the God of the Bible!
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A Freeman
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An "omnist"??? It's actually you who are confused, as you've been provided crystal clear confirmation directly out of the mouth of Jesus that you are in error, and yet you STILL ignore it. You are also, very hypocritically breaking the First Commandment, by pretending the Son OF God is the equal to Father, Who IS God.
If what you say is true, then please provide one instance where any God other than The Most High God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel (the "I AM") has been personally promoted. There are no other gods beside Him (the "I AM"). And there is no other law on this planet besides His Law.
According to Christ, no "Christian" has ever understood the Bible, nor is it possible for them to do so, as long as they continue to be part of an organized human religion that Christ Himself repeatedly CONDEMNED.
NONE of the verses you cited in any way, shape or form make the claim that Jesus is or was God. All you've done is attempt to justify an anti-Christ position by citing Scripture which you either don't understand or don't want to understand. In fact, these verses have all been addressed already in a separate thread.
The Trinity Delusion
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-trinity-delusion.8028/#post-342254
If you feel any of these haven't already been adequately addressed, please advise and they can be answered individually as time permits.
Christ, directly through the mouth of Jesus, plainly stated that He is POWERLESS without our OMNIPOTENT God (John 5:30). BELIEVE CHRIST.
Christ, directly through the mouth of Jesus, plainly stated that He is NOT all-knowing; only Father is OMNISCIENT (Matt. 24:36). BELIEVE CHRIST.
Christ, directly through the mouth of Jesus, plainly stated that He is NOT GOD (Matt. 27:46, John 20:17, Rev. 3:12). BELIEVE CHRIST.
And yet Christ, through the mouth of Jesus plainly stated that He is NOT God, and that our Heavenly Father -- Who Jesus prayed to -- is His God. You just choose to ignore His Words, to your own detriment.
Agreed. That is His Assignment, appointed to Him by Father (God), to be the One and Only Mediator BETWEEN God and men (1 Tim. 2:5)
Do you really not understand what the word "OF" means please? Do you not know what a Son is? Or what a Father is? Or what the term "God" or "The MOST High" means?
Christ IS the Son OF God. The firstborn (created) of every creature.
Jesus was the Lamb OF God.
Abraham offered his miracle son Isaac on Mt. Moriah as a sacrifice, and by his righteous act Abraham not only became a "friend of God", but also foreshadowed Father (God) offering His Own Miracle Son as a sacrifice 2000 years later.
There are no other "faiths". Faith is trust in God ONLY. And, according to God and His Firstborn Son (His Christ), Jesus is NOT God.
May Father Bless you.
Well said once again, Phipps.
God didn't want robots. Love requires free will. Man caused sin to enter the world, not God.
God is not confined to time.
"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made."
- John 1:1-3 KJV
His Word's been around from the beginning.
polymoog
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a poor answer.
then why have any commandments at all if god didnt want robots?
The very question you ask is answered in my previous response.
Commandments aren't a program. You can obey them, or disobey them. Again, it implies freedom.
Saying that my response is "poor" in no way refutes it.
polymoog
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ok, why have "instructions" for many other things, but not for harming an animal to eat?
phipps response came closer to a proper answer, but it still does not explain why it wasnt a commandment.
They are not my words but they do help understand God better.