who is this man?

recure

Established
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
316
Allah is never referred to/thought as a father in the Islamic perspective... Allah is not even a he. Allah is the Creator of fathers and mothers.
That is my understanding as well, so it's strange that Daze wants to die on the hill of 'Allah is God the Father' even though he has no rationale other than 'it's true whether one likes it or not.' He was referring to the Shahadah when he said "100% of Muslims say there is no god but God the Father". Not only did he add words to the Islamic statement of faith but suggested that all Muslims agree with this eisegetical insertion which is probably heretical by Islamic standards as well.
I still see no evidence of "Allah" being etymologically linked to elohim, though.
The Arabic word for god/deity is Ilah (إله); the Hebrew word Elohim (אלהימ) has the same root + the plural suffix -im. Even though it is a plural noun in the Hebrew, the verbs are singular which implies that God is one but there is a plurality within himself. Allah is supposed to be a contraction of Al-Ilah (الإله), i.e. the Arabic definite article + Ilah (god). This word is used in the Arabic Bible particularly when referring to the Lord God (الرب الإله, Ar-rabbul Ilah).
 






akay

Established
Joined
Mar 26, 2021
Messages
119
1_
The presence of scholars is a blessing for us. We benefit from their knowledge and their interest in not deviating from the context of the Qur’anic text or hadith.

People who do not have knowledge of interpretation are not allowed as they like,
as Christians and Jews do and say we explain it through God.

It is just their whims and desires

And if they actually followed God’s way, they would have become Muslims a long time ago, because the Prophet Moses, Jesus and others were sent to their people only.
But the Prophet Muhammad is the Messenger and the last Prophet is the Seal of the Prophets

theymust believe in the message of Islam


Therefore, scholars are the guardians of the correct belief


The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said

“… (Islamic) Scholars are the inheritors of the prophets…” [Related by al-Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud, Nasa’i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad, Ibn Hibban and others]



“This is from the greatest of the virtues of the scholars, since the Prophets are the best of Allah’s creation. So this means that their inheritors are the best of creation after them. Everyone that leaves behind inheritance has his property transfer over to his heirs, since they are the ones who will take his place after him. There is no one that will take the place of the Messengers, in spreading what they were sent with after them except the scholars. Therefore, they are the ones who have the most right to receive that inheritance. This indicates that the scholars are the closest people to the Prophets, since inheritance is only passed down to those closest to the one leaving behind inheritance.





2_
The instructions of the previous prophets were mentioned in the Qur’an, and the Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace, spoke about them in his hadiths. He was explaining to the companions the story of the Prophet Moses, Jesus, Abraham and others mentioned in the Qur’an




Moses, upon him be peace, was given the honor of speaking with Allah directly.

Allah said:

وَكَلَّمَ اللَّهُ مُوسَىٰ تَكْلِيمًا

Allah spoke to Moses directly.

Surah An-Nisa 4:164

Jesus and his mother Mary, peace and blessings be upon them both, were honored with being protected from Satan at the time of birth, although all other people are touched by Satan.

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

كُلُّ بَنِي آدَمَ يَمَسُّهُ الشَّيْطَانُ يَوْمَ وَلَدَتْهُ أُمُّهُ إِلَّا مَرْيَمَ وَابْنَهَا

Satan touches every son of Adam on the day his mother gives birth to him, except for Mary and her son.

Source: Sahih Muslim 2366, Grade: Sahih

These examples demonstrate that some prophets were given unique honors, but this does not allow Muslims to claim one prophet is better than another. Rather, the Messenger of Allah specifically prohibited Muslims from arguing with the Jews and Christians about whose prophet is better.

Abu Huraira reported: Two people, one Jewish and the other Muslim, fell into dispute and began to abuse one another. The Muslim said, “By Him Who chose Muhammad in the worlds!” The Jew said, “By Him Who chose Moses in the worlds!” Then the Muslim slapped the Jew on his face. The Jew went to the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, and told him about the incident, so the Prophet said:

لَا تُخَيِّرُونِي عَلَى مُوسَى فَإِنَّ النَّاسَ يَصْعَقُونَ فَأَكُونُ أَوَّلَ مَنْ يُفِيقُ فَإِذَا مُوسَى بَاطِشٌ بِجَانِبِ الْعَرْشِ فَلَا أَدْرِي أَكَانَ فِيمَنْ صَعِقَ فَأَفَاقَ قَبْلِي أَمْ كَانَ مِمَّنْ اسْتَثْنَى اللَّهُ

Do not say I am better than Moses for mankind will faint on the Day of Judgment and I will be the first to recover, and Moses at that time will be holding the side of the Throne. I do not know if he would faint and recover before me, or if Allah will make an exception for him.

Source: Sahih Muslim 2373, Grade: Sahih

Despite the Messenger of Allah’s multiple commands to make no distinction among the prophets, some Muslims have given him the title “best of creation” (khayr al-barriyah). They cite as evidence the unique honors bestowed upon our Prophet, such as his leadership on the Day of Resurrection and his intercession.

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

أَنَا سَيِّدُ وَلَدِ آدَمَ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَأَوَّلُ مَنْ يَنْشَقُّ عَنْهُ الْقَبْرُ وَأَوَّلُ شَافِعٍ وَأَوَّلُ مُشَفَّعٍ

I will be the leader of the children of Adam on the Day of Resurrection, and I will be the first intercessor and the first whose intercession will be accepted.

Source: Sahih Muslim 2278, Grade: Sahih

This is a great honour for our Prophet, but it was not the intention of the Messenger of Allah to bestow the title “best of creation” upon himself. In fact, the Messenger of Allah rejected the title “best of creation” for himself. Rather, he gave this title to his father Abraham, upon him be peace.

Anas ibn Malik reported: A person came to the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, and said, “O best of creation!” So the Prophet said:

ذَاكَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَام

That is Abraham, upon him be peace.

Source: Sahih Muslim 2369, Grade: Sahih

By giving this special title to Abraham and rejecting it for himself, the Messenger of Allah showed his great humility and his love for his father Abraham. It may also have been meant to prevent bickering among the Muslims and the Jews and Christians, since all three religions have respect for Abraham.

Prophet Ibrahim(pbuh) has been given a very special status in the Quran by Almighty appointing him as ‘Imam(leader)of the mankind(2:124).Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)has been asked by Almighty to follow the path of Ibrahim(pbuh)(16:123)

Ibn Abbas reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

لَا تُطْرُونِي كَمَا أَطْرَتْ النَّصَارَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ فَإِنَّمَا أَنَا عَبْدُهُ فَقُولُوا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ وَرَسُولُهُ

Do not exalt me as the Christians have exalted the son of Mary. I am but a servant, so call me the servant of Allah and His messenger.

Source: Sahih Bukhari 3261, Grade: Sahih

Anas ibn Malik reported: A man said, “O Muhammad! O master son of our master! O best of us son of the best of us!” So the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ عَلَيْكُمْ بِتَقْوَاكُمْ وَلَا يَسْتَهْوِيَنَّكُمْ الشَّيْطَانُ أَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ وَرَسُولُهُ وَاللَّهِ مَا أُحِبُّ أَنْ تَرْفَعُونِي فَوْقَ مَنْزِلَتِي الَّتِي أَنْزَلَنِي اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ

O people, say what you must say but do not allow Satan to deceive you. I am Muhammad the son of Abdullah, the servant of Allah and His Messenger. By Allah, I do not love that you raise my status above what Allah the Exalted has granted me.

Source: Musnad Ahmad 12141, Grade: Sahih

Therefore, the safest course of action is to refer to the Messenger of Allah as the “servant of Allah” and “His Messenger” without adding any exaggerated titles to his name.

In conclusion, Muslims make no distinctions between the prophets, peace be upon them all. We believe in all of them without favouring one over another. The Messenger of Allah commanded us not to say one prophet is better than another, or to argue with the Jews and Christians about this matter. Likewise, we have been warned not to exaggerate our praises of the Messenger of Allah.






3_


Most of the Bible stories are fabricated

And scientific logic dictates that such illogical stories are fabricated and naive, and the one who wrote these stories does not have the slightest conception or professionalism in writing the story. Therefore, these stories cannot be from God... because we are simply ashamed of presenting them to our readers because they contain obscene words that offend modesty...

What is mentioned about some of the prophets in previous books of stories denies their infallibility, a case which contravenes their message. So, it is obligatory upon us to vindicate them of such denials. The Noble Qur’ān took the responsibility of refuting most of these false claims, in recognition of the prophets’ position and in corroboration with the truth, which is in line with the message of Islam.



Example

This is the story of God’s prophet Lot, according to the Bible, Genesis chapter 19, where we find a story that is nonsense... The person who possesses the least amount of intelligence cannot believe that a prophet sent by God could do such a thing... Then why is God mentioned in his “book” The sacred are such abnormal stories, which cannot happen in reality. The Prophet Lot, peace be upon him, did these things, then his two daughters became pregnant and he did not think to ask his two daughters






4_



The word "pain" or its derivatives occurs more than 70 times in the Bible. And the first use of this word explains the origin of pain in childbirth: (Genesis 3:16). The context here is that Adam and Eve fell into sin, and the pain of childbirth was one of the consequences of sin. Because of sin, the whole earth was cursed, and death entered it (Romans 5:12). It can be said that pain is one of the many consequences of original sin.



The belief the inherited sin. contradicts divine justice. This is because the just God punishes a person for what he did, not for what his father or grandparents did. The Bible says in Ezekiel 18/20-21: The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

This text indicates the responsibility of each individual for his sin and thus denies the inherited sin.





5_
The Scholars of hadith collected about ten thousand authentic hadiths. All the hadiths were documented with the chains of transmission all the way to Prophet Mohammed Peace Be Upon Him, and include all the narrators in sequence. You can read the chain now whenever you read a hadith. There are still people today who memorize all the hadiths with the chain of transmission verbatim, word by word, all the way to the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him.

There are many scholars of hadith who compiled the hadiths they investigated, and classified each hadith according to its level of authenticity. Many hadiths were mentioned in more than one book, other hadiths were also mentioned with repetition as they may have different chain of transmission, while others may have slight difference in wordings. The most authentic collection is by Imam Al-Bukhari, followed by Imam Muslim. Here’s a list of the six Canonical collections of hadith called Al-Kutub Al-Sittah:

Sahih al-Bukhari
Sahih Muslim
Sunan Abu Dawud
Sunan al-Tirmidhi
Sunan al-Nasa'i
Sunan Ibn Majah

There are also other Books of hadith which include:

Muwatta’a Al Imam Malik
Musnad Al Imam Ahmed
Musnad Al Imam Al-Shafe’i
Mustadrak Al-Hakim, in addition to others.



You may refer to the following link to get some more information: The Science Of Hadith


If you want to dive a little deeper into this subject, I suggest that you read:


If you want to really dive deeply into the subject, I suggest that you read the book of Ibn Al-Salah (Rahimahu Allah), which you may find on Amazon:

An Introduction To The Science Of Hadith

An Introduction to the Science of the Hadith: Kitab Mar'rifat Anwa' 'Ilm Al-Hadith (Great Books of Islamic Civilization): Ibn al-Shahrazuri, Eerik Dickinson: 9781859641583: Amazon.com: Books
 






Last edited:

fotw

Established
Joined
Jun 27, 2019
Messages
164
1_
The presence of scholars is a blessing for us. We benefit from their knowledge and their interest in not deviating from the context of the Qur’anic text or hadith.

People who do not have knowledge of interpretation are not allowed as they like,
as Christians and Jews do and say we explain it through God.

It is just their whims and desires

And if they actually followed God’s way, they would have become Muslims a long time ago, because the Prophet Moses, Jesus and others were sent to their people only.
But the Prophet Muhammad is the Messenger and the last Prophet is the Seal of the Prophets

theymust believe in the message of Islam


Therefore, scholars are the guardians of the correct belief


The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said

“… (Islamic) Scholars are the inheritors of the prophets…” [Related by al-Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud, Nasa’i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad, Ibn Hibban and others]



“This is from the greatest of the virtues of the scholars, since the Prophets are the best of Allah’s creation. So this means that their inheritors are the best of creation after them. Everyone that leaves behind inheritance has his property transfer over to his heirs, since they are the ones who will take his place after him. There is no one that will take the place of the Messengers, in spreading what they were sent with after them except the scholars. Therefore, they are the ones who have the most right to receive that inheritance. This indicates that the scholars are the closest people to the Prophets, since inheritance is only passed down to those closest to the one leaving behind inheritance.





2_
The instructions of the previous prophets were mentioned in the Qur’an, and the Prophet Muhammad, upon him be peace, spoke about them in his hadiths. He was explaining to the companions the story of the Prophet Moses, Jesus, Abraham and others mentioned in the Qur’an




Moses, upon him be peace, was given the honor of speaking with Allah directly.

Allah said:

وَكَلَّمَ اللَّهُ مُوسَىٰ تَكْلِيمًا

Allah spoke to Moses directly.

Surah An-Nisa 4:164

Jesus and his mother Mary, peace and blessings be upon them both, were honored with being protected from Satan at the time of birth, although all other people are touched by Satan.

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

كُلُّ بَنِي آدَمَ يَمَسُّهُ الشَّيْطَانُ يَوْمَ وَلَدَتْهُ أُمُّهُ إِلَّا مَرْيَمَ وَابْنَهَا

Satan touches every son of Adam on the day his mother gives birth to him, except for Mary and her son.

Source: Sahih Muslim 2366, Grade: Sahih

These examples demonstrate that some prophets were given unique honors, but this does not allow Muslims to claim one prophet is better than another. Rather, the Messenger of Allah specifically prohibited Muslims from arguing with the Jews and Christians about whose prophet is better.

Abu Huraira reported: Two people, one Jewish and the other Muslim, fell into dispute and began to abuse one another. The Muslim said, “By Him Who chose Muhammad in the worlds!” The Jew said, “By Him Who chose Moses in the worlds!” Then the Muslim slapped the Jew on his face. The Jew went to the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, and told him about the incident, so the Prophet said:

لَا تُخَيِّرُونِي عَلَى مُوسَى فَإِنَّ النَّاسَ يَصْعَقُونَ فَأَكُونُ أَوَّلَ مَنْ يُفِيقُ فَإِذَا مُوسَى بَاطِشٌ بِجَانِبِ الْعَرْشِ فَلَا أَدْرِي أَكَانَ فِيمَنْ صَعِقَ فَأَفَاقَ قَبْلِي أَمْ كَانَ مِمَّنْ اسْتَثْنَى اللَّهُ

Do not say I am better than Moses for mankind will faint on the Day of Judgment and I will be the first to recover, and Moses at that time will be holding the side of the Throne. I do not know if he would faint and recover before me, or if Allah will make an exception for him.

Source: Sahih Muslim 2373, Grade: Sahih

Despite the Messenger of Allah’s multiple commands to make no distinction among the prophets, some Muslims have given him the title “best of creation” (khayr al-barriyah). They cite as evidence the unique honors bestowed upon our Prophet, such as his leadership on the Day of Resurrection and his intercession.

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

أَنَا سَيِّدُ وَلَدِ آدَمَ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَأَوَّلُ مَنْ يَنْشَقُّ عَنْهُ الْقَبْرُ وَأَوَّلُ شَافِعٍ وَأَوَّلُ مُشَفَّعٍ

I will be the leader of the children of Adam on the Day of Resurrection, and I will be the first intercessor and the first whose intercession will be accepted.

Source: Sahih Muslim 2278, Grade: Sahih

This is a great honour for our Prophet, but it was not the intention of the Messenger of Allah to bestow the title “best of creation” upon himself. In fact, the Messenger of Allah rejected the title “best of creation” for himself. Rather, he gave this title to his father Abraham, upon him be peace.

Anas ibn Malik reported: A person came to the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, and said, “O best of creation!” So the Prophet said:

ذَاكَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَام

That is Abraham, upon him be peace.

Source: Sahih Muslim 2369, Grade: Sahih

By giving this special title to Abraham and rejecting it for himself, the Messenger of Allah showed his great humility and his love for his father Abraham. It may also have been meant to prevent bickering among the Muslims and the Jews and Christians, since all three religions have respect for Abraham.

Prophet Ibrahim(pbuh) has been given a very special status in the Quran by Almighty appointing him as ‘Imam(leader)of the mankind(2:124).Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)has been asked by Almighty to follow the path of Ibrahim(pbuh)(16:123)

Ibn Abbas reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

لَا تُطْرُونِي كَمَا أَطْرَتْ النَّصَارَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ فَإِنَّمَا أَنَا عَبْدُهُ فَقُولُوا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ وَرَسُولُهُ

Do not exalt me as the Christians have exalted the son of Mary. I am but a servant, so call me the servant of Allah and His messenger.

Source: Sahih Bukhari 3261, Grade: Sahih

Anas ibn Malik reported: A man said, “O Muhammad! O master son of our master! O best of us son of the best of us!” So the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ عَلَيْكُمْ بِتَقْوَاكُمْ وَلَا يَسْتَهْوِيَنَّكُمْ الشَّيْطَانُ أَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ وَرَسُولُهُ وَاللَّهِ مَا أُحِبُّ أَنْ تَرْفَعُونِي فَوْقَ مَنْزِلَتِي الَّتِي أَنْزَلَنِي اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ

O people, say what you must say but do not allow Satan to deceive you. I am Muhammad the son of Abdullah, the servant of Allah and His Messenger. By Allah, I do not love that you raise my status above what Allah the Exalted has granted me.

Source: Musnad Ahmad 12141, Grade: Sahih

Therefore, the safest course of action is to refer to the Messenger of Allah as the “servant of Allah” and “His Messenger” without adding any exaggerated titles to his name.

In conclusion, Muslims make no distinctions between the prophets, peace be upon them all. We believe in all of them without favouring one over another. The Messenger of Allah commanded us not to say one prophet is better than another, or to argue with the Jews and Christians about this matter. Likewise, we have been warned not to exaggerate our praises of the Messenger of Allah.






3_


Most of the Bible stories are fabricated

And scientific logic dictates that such illogical stories are fabricated and naive, and the one who wrote these stories does not have the slightest conception or professionalism in writing the story. Therefore, these stories cannot be from God... because we are simply ashamed of presenting them to our readers because they contain obscene words that offend modesty...

What is mentioned about some of the prophets in previous books of stories denies their infallibility, a case which contravenes their message. So, it is obligatory upon us to vindicate them of such denials. The Noble Qur’ān took the responsibility of refuting most of these false claims, in recognition of the prophets’ position and in corroboration with the truth, which is in line with the message of Islam.



Example

This is the story of God’s prophet Lot, according to the Bible, Genesis chapter 19, where we find a story that is nonsense... The person who possesses the least amount of intelligence cannot believe that a prophet sent by God could do such a thing... Then why is God mentioned in his “book” The sacred are such abnormal stories, which cannot happen in reality. The Prophet Lot, peace be upon him, did these things, then his two daughters became pregnant and he did not think to ask his two daughters






4_



The word "pain" or its derivatives occurs more than 70 times in the Bible. And the first use of this word explains the origin of pain in childbirth: (Genesis 3:16). The context here is that Adam and Eve fell into sin, and the pain of childbirth was one of the consequences of sin. Because of sin, the whole earth was cursed, and death entered it (Romans 5:12). It can be said that pain is one of the many consequences of original sin.



The belief the inherited sin. contradicts divine justice. This is because the just God punishes a person for what he did, not for what his father or grandparents did. The Bible says in Ezekiel 18/20-21: The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

This text indicates the responsibility of each individual for his sin and thus denies the inherited sin.





5_
The Scholars of hadith collected about ten thousand authentic hadiths. All the hadiths were documented with the chains of transmission all the way to Prophet Mohammed Peace Be Upon Him, and include all the narrators in sequence. You can read the chain now whenever you read a hadith. There are still people today who memorize all the hadiths with the chain of transmission verbatim, word by word, all the way to the Prophet Peace Be Upon Him.

There are many scholars of hadith who compiled the hadiths they investigated, and classified each hadith according to its level of authenticity. Many hadiths were mentioned in more than one book, other hadiths were also mentioned with repetition as they may have different chain of transmission, while others may have slight difference in wordings. The most authentic collection is by Imam Al-Bukhari, followed by Imam Muslim. Here’s a list of the six Canonical collections of hadith called Al-Kutub Al-Sittah:

Sahih al-Bukhari
Sahih Muslim
Sunan Abu Dawud
Sunan al-Tirmidhi
Sunan al-Nasa'i
Sunan Ibn Majah

There are also other Books of hadith which include:

Muwatta’a Al Imam Malik
Musnad Al Imam Ahmed
Musnad Al Imam Al-Shafe’i
Mustadrak Al-Hakim, in addition to others.



You may refer to the following link to get some more information: The Science Of Hadith


If you want to dive a little deeper into this subject, I suggest that you read:


If you want to really dive deeply into the subject, I suggest that you read the book of Ibn Al-Salah (Rahimahu Allah), which you may find on Amazon:

An Introduction To The Science Of Hadith

An Introduction to the Science of the Hadith: Kitab Mar'rifat Anwa' 'Ilm Al-Hadith (Great Books of Islamic Civilization): Ibn al-Shahrazuri, Eerik Dickinson: 9781859641583: Amazon.com: Books
Thank you for your thorough reply. I will study your argument and perspective. I leave you in peace.
 






Last edited:

elsbet

Superstar
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
5,058
Im not sure if there is a definitive answer of the root-word linkage... perhaps due to loss of origins via the swirling sands of time, perhaps because of peoples innovations over the years...
My understanding is that Ala was an Aramaic term for the One, True God even used by Jesus and has been proposed as a root word for Allah. Elohim and etc. may be related but its my understanding that Allah, in the truest definition, translates to "The One" or The God" (meaning the One, True God).
Concerning "Allah", I don't know-- however that seems to be the connotation in the quran.

Tbh, I don't understand the benefit of linking "allah" to such a broad or general term like "elohim" (which can be plural or singular, depending on context, and applied to gods and goddesses, alike; it isn't a proper noun).

It lowers the nature of the name (allah v. Allah) to equality with the heathen / pagan gods.

Even in Arabic, the sense of the word is the same (ilah, in this case, as @recure mentioned)--> something / anything that is worshipped. But "Allah" is written separately, I assume to differentiate status from other gods/goddesses, in the quran-- see Spoiler.
ʾIlāh (Arabic: إله‎; plural: آلهة ʾālihat) is an Arabic term meaning " "god". In Arabic, ilah refers to anyone or anything that is worshipped.[1] The feminine is ʾilāhat (إلاهة, meaning "goddess"); with the article, it appears as al-ʾilāhat (الإلاهة). The Arabic word for God (Allāh) is thought to be derived from it (in a proposed earlier form al-Lāh) though this is disputed.[2][3] ʾIlāh is cognate to Northwest Semitic ʾēl and Akkadian ilum. The word is from a Proto-Semitic archaic biliteral ʔ-L meaning "god" (possibly with a wider meaning of "strong"), which was extended to a regular triliteral by the addition of a h (as in Hebrew ʾelōah, ʾelōhim). The word is spelled either إلٰه with an optional diacritic alif to mark the ā only in Qur'anic texts or (more rarely) with a full alif, إلاه.

The term is used throughout the Quran in passages discussing the existence of God or the beliefs in other divinities by non-Muslims. Notably, the first statement of the šahādah (the Muslim confession of faith) is "There is no god (ʾilāh) except the God (Allāh)."
I've heard people say that something akin to Jehovah was thought to be in the quran (which would be noteworthy), but I haven't seen it, myself.

In my initial post (no. 215), I included a link for a source offering a detailed breakdown of related words, if you're interested-- here. Verses are included for each variation.
-
 






TempestOfTempo

Superstar
Joined
Jan 29, 2018
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That is my understanding as well, so it's strange that Daze wants to die on the hill of 'Allah is God the Father' even though he has no rationale other than 'it's true whether one likes it or not.' He was referring to the Shahadah when he said "100% of Muslims say there is no god but God the Father". Not only did he add words to the Islamic statement of faith but suggested that all Muslims agree with this eisegetical insertion which is probably heretical by Islamic standards as well.

The Arabic word for god/deity is Ilah (إله); the Hebrew word Elohim (אלהימ) has the same root + the plural suffix -im. Even though it is a plural noun in the Hebrew, the verbs are singular which implies that God is one but there is a plurality within himself. Allah is supposed to be a contraction of Al-Ilah (الإله), i.e. the Arabic definite article + Ilah (god). This word is used in the Arabic Bible particularly when referring to the Lord God (الرب الإله, Ar-rabbul Ilah).
Well... Daze, Desert Shibshib and the rest are steady accusing me of being a non-Muslim and etc. left and right... yet here they are committing the worst sin in Islam... placing human attributes (and therefore partners) with the one, true and completely unique Creator. All because they also want to die on another hill of "We cant refute the Islamic and scientific evidence that states Aisha was 17-19 when she married Muhammed, but we want to justify the rampant child-r*pe and pedo ish that modern Muslims engage in so we are going to violate more hadeeths while we provoke conflict with you, but never offer any definitive proof of our own outside of... surprise... hadeeth we conveniently accept".

Strange days...
 






recure

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Well... Daze, Desert Shibshib and the rest are steady accusing me of being a non-Muslim and etc. left and right... yet here they are committing the worst sin in Islam... placing human attributes (and therefore partners) with the one, true and completely unique Creator. All because they also want to die on another hill of "We cant refute the Islamic and scientific evidence that states Aisha was 17-19 when she married Muhammed, but we want to justify the rampant child-r*pe and pedo ish that modern Muslims engage in so we are going to violate more hadeeths while we provoke conflict with you, but never offer any definitive proof of our own outside of... surprise... hadeeth we conveniently accept".

Strange days...
I guess when you’re morality policing Christians all the time you also get to decide who is and isn’t a real Muslim, even if your own beliefs make you an infidel per the teachings of the Koran. A sensible Muslim knows the logical implications of saying that a middle-aged man consummated his marriage to a child.
 






TempestOfTempo

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I guess when you’re morality policing Christians all the time you also get to decide who is and isn’t a real Muslim, even if your own beliefs make you an infidel per the teachings of the Koran. A sensible Muslim knows the logical implications of saying that a middle-aged man consummated his marriage to a child.
Indeed. One benefit of these interactions is that they lay these arguments/excuses to waste so when encountering them offline, people can be prepared to recognize and reject those who promote such behavior.
 






akay

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This subject is the favorite of Islamophobes who find here an opportunity to attack the Prophet (sws)



We know that at the time, there was no commune to register the child in a national register or certificate issued by the hospital mentioning the exact moment of birth, and therefore only parents could we Given the age of the child (and again!), . We do not have hadiths reported by Aicha's parents (Abu-Barker and Um-Rumane) about Aisha's age at the time of her marriage. Similarly, the people of that time, they could only give us an approximation. There is obviously a doubt about it. Today, some of our grandparents do not even know their exact age, sometimes there is 5.6.7 ... years of age difference, so what about when it was 14 centuries ago! ?

We have no proof of a national register of the Arabian Peninsula of the 7th century AD! We only have suggestions, estimates and approximations.




Hazrat Aisha was 19, not 9 at marriage time? by Dr Zakir Naik
 






Daze

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This subject is the favorite of Islamophobes who find here an opportunity to attack the Prophet (sws)



We know that at the time, there was no commune to register the child in a national register or certificate issued by the hospital mentioning the exact moment of birth, and therefore only parents could we Given the age of the child (and again!), . We do not have hadiths reported by Aicha's parents (Abu-Barker and Um-Rumane) about Aisha's age at the time of her marriage. Similarly, the people of that time, they could only give us an approximation. There is obviously a doubt about it. Today, some of our grandparents do not even know their exact age, sometimes there is 5.6.7 ... years of age difference, so what about when it was 14 centuries ago! ?

We have no proof of a national register of the Arabian Peninsula of the 7th century AD! We only have suggestions, estimates and approximations.




Hazrat Aisha was 19, not 9 at marriage time? by Dr Zakir Naik
This is really starting to become ridiculous. I mean one of those Islamaphobes calls himself a Muslim.

End of the day Aisha's age doesn't matter. I mean the Prophet had her Fathers blessing. Let all the fathers here put themselves into his place.
Clearly she was not a pre-pubescent child, clearly they saw something special about the last prophet (saw) to walk this earth.

The truth is time is running out and the devil is getting desperate, so he's gonna throw as much mud at Islam as he possibly can.

But end of the day its all spitting at the moon because Islams message is undeniable.

There is no god but God. The one and only Lord of Adam, Issac and Abraham.

As I've said before and been called "pompous" for it... The lion does not acknowledge the barking of dogs.. because Islams message is undeniable.

13.jpg
 






DesertRose

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There is no concept of 'teenage years" in Islam. Throughout the centuries people regarded puberty as the time which identifies when a person has reached a 'marriageable age'.
This understanding can be seen from this verse in the Quran as well"

Test ˹the competence of˺ the orphans until they reach a marriageable age. Then if you feel they are capable of sound judgment, return their wealth to them. And do not consume it wastefully and hastily before they grow up ˹to demand it˺. If the guardian is well-off, they should not take compensation; but if the guardian is poor, let them take a reasonable provision. When you give orphans back their property, call in witnesses. And sufficient is Allah as a ˹vigilant˺ Reckoner. 4:6


Age of Consent in European & American History

What was the ‘Age of Consent’ in European and American history, prior to the 20th century? In this article, I shall bring forth evidences which demonstrate that the ‘Age of consent’ was indeed, very young, even by today’s standards. I will provide academic sources which show that girls were allowed to be married at the age of 10 years old and sometimes times, as young as 7 years old, legally. It was norm just over 100 years ago to see girls being married off at very young ages. In most cultures, the marriage would have been consummated at the onset of puberty.


1. Professor of history Margaret Wade Labarge


“It needs to be remembered that many Medieval widows were not old, Important heiresses were often married between the ages of 5 and 10 and might find themselves widowed while still in their teens.” [1]
2. Professor Richard Wortley and Professor Stephen Smallbone, both of whom state that prior to the 1900s girls married very young,


“In Medieval and early modern European societies, the age of marriage remained low, with documented cases of brides as young as seven years, although marriages were typically not consummated until the girl reached puberty (Bullough 2004). Shakespeare’s Juliet was just 13, and there is no hint in the play that this was considered to be exceptional. The situation was similar on the other side of the Atlantic; Bullough reports the case in 1689 of a nine-year-old bride in Virginia. At the start of the nineteenth century in England, it was legal to have sex with a 10 year-old girl.” [2]
3. In the book, ‘Sex and Society’,


“Until the late 20th century U.S. age of consent laws specifically names males as perpetrators and females as victims. Following English law, in which the age was set at 12 in 1275 and lowered to 10 in 1576, ages of consent in the American colonies were generally set at 10 or 12. The laws protected female virginity, which at the time was considered a valuable commodity until marriage. The theft of a girl’s chastity was seen as a property crime against her father and future husband. If two people were married and had sex, no matter what their age, no crime was committed because a woman was her husband’s property. In practice, too, the consent laws only protected white females, as many non-white females were enslaved or otherwise discriminated against by the legal system.” [3]
4. Richard A. Posner is chief judge of the U.S court of appeals, Seventh Circuit Chicago. Katherine B. Silbaugh is associate Professor at Boston University School of Law, they say that before the 1900s age of consent was ten years old,


“The law governing the age of consent has changed dramatically in the United States during this century. Most states codified a statutory age of consent during the nineteenth century, and the usual age was ten years.” [4]
5. The Scottish Law prior to 1900s by Sir John Comyns and Stewart Kyd,


“By the law of Scotland, a woman cannot contrabere sponsalia before her age of seven years. 1 Rol. 343. I. 20.
But by common law, persons may marry at any age. Co. Lit. 33. A.
And upon such marriage the wife shall be endowed, if the attain the age of nine years, of what whatsoever age her husband be; but not before the age of nine years. Co. L. 33. A.” [5]
6. Professor of Sociology Anthony Joseph Paul Cortese says that a 50 year old man being with a girl under 10 (being intimate) Under United States law was legal until the mid 1960s,


“In 1962, the American Law Institute recommended that the legal age of consent to sex- that is, the age below which sex is defined as statutory r*pe- be dropped in every state to age 10 (Katchadourian and Lund 1972: 439). In fact, until the mid 1960s, the legal age of consent in Delaware was 7 (Kling, 1965: 216). So a 50 year old man could legally have sexual intercourse with a 7 year old boy or girl.” [6]
7. Maureen Dabbagh is a writer and author. Born in Michigan, she serves as a Virginia Supreme Court Family Mediator, she echoes the same statements as previous authors,


“…the nineteenth century, the minimum age of consent for sexual intercourse in most American states was 10 years. In Delaware it was only 7 years.” [7]
8. Mike A. Males is an American sociologist who writes from a pro youth rights perspective. Males is a professor at the University of California, he writes,


“These early laws specified that a girl consenting to sex had to be at least 10 to 12 years old in most states, with a few specifying ages as old as 14 or 16. In Delaware, the age of consent was seven, based on ancient English laws setting the age squire.” [8]
9. Arthur Siccan Author of the Book: ‘What’s Wrong in America: A Look at Troublesome Issues in Our Country’, goes in a lot of detail on the issue of marriage at earlier times,


“Traditionally, across the globe, the age of consent for sexual union was a matter for the family to decide, or a tribal custom. In most cases, this coincided with signs of puberty, menstruation for a woman and pubic hair for a man.
Sir Edward Coke in 17th century England ‘made it clear that the marriage of girls under 12 was normal, and the age at which a girl who was a wife was eligible for a dower from her husband’s estate was 9. The American colonies followed the English tradition, and the law was more of a guide. For example Mary Hathaway of Virginia, was only 9 when she was married to William Williams.
Portugal, Spain, Denmark and the Swiss canons, initially set the age of consent at 10-12 years and then raised it to between 13 and 16 years in the second half of the 19th century. Historically, the English common law set the age of consent to range from 10- 12. In the United States, by the 1880s, most states set the age of consent at 10-12, and in one state Delaware, the age of consent was only 7. Social and resulting legal attitudes toward the appropriate age of consent have drifted upwards in modern times. For example while ages from 10 to 13 were typically acceptable in Western countries during the mid-19the century, the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century were marked by changing.
I believe that a lot of our current mores come from reluctance to let our children mature mentally as quickly as our bodies do. Keep in mind that not all societies share Western mores. And to my surprise, until the latter part of the 19th Century, Children in the Western nations were engaged and married at a much earlier age. The trend to give children more time to mature is relatively new.
In his book, The Emphatic civilization, (Penguin, NY, 200) Jeremy Rifkin points out that the concept of adolescence only emerged during the last decade of the nineteenth century and the first three decades of the twentieth century. Society started to think of childhood as extending beyond puberty, into the later teenage years. Before that, children were considered to graduate into adulthood with the onset of puberty.” [9]
10. The ’American Bar Association’ Journal [August 1996]:


“1275 English common law criminalizes statutory r*pe- sex between a man and a woman below the age of consent, which was first set at 12 years.
1576 Common Law age of consent lowered to 10 years.
1700s-1800s Statutory r*pe at common law adopted in the united states. States set the age of consent at 10 or 12 years.” [10]
11. Sinikka Elliott


“The statutes governing the minimum age under which sex cannot be legally consensual, and laws concerning marriage and workers rights, were modified to reflect these changing discourses around childhood. Age of sexual consent, for example, rose from 7 during colonial times to 10, 12, and eventually as high as 14 during the eighteenth centuries. By the late 1800s, the average age of consent in the United States was 14. Across the nation, however the age of consent was raised slowly, unevenly, and with great reluctance.” [11]
12. Susan M. Ross


“According to British common law during the colonial period, the age of consent was seven. Today we are astounded that girls of this age were assumed to know enough about sex (or about sin) to make such a decision competently.” [12]
13. Carolyn Cocca:


“At what age is a person capable of making and informed decision about whether or not to engage in sex? Would it be7,10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, or 21? Over the last 300 years, all the ages listed above were thought to be that magic age at which one could make such a decision, and all the ages listed above have, at various times, been inscribed into law as the age of consent to sex.” [13]
14. Merril D. Smith says that the age which a girl could marry was 10 to 13 in most societies,


“To that end, from ancient times to the present, many societies have acted to try to safeguard children from r*pe and other forms of sexual degradation, though they might define sexual degradation differently from era to era and from place to place. One way societies have tried to protect young girls is through laws that designate a statutory age of consent. Such laws prohibit men from having sexual relations with females under a specified age on legal theory that they are too young and immature to make informed decision and, therefore, are incapable of giving a legal consent. Historically, the age of consent was set at 10 or 13 years, depending on the era and the culture, and tended to coincide with female puberty, which was also the age at which a female could marry without parental permission.” [14]
15. Melissa Hope Ditmore


“United States, the age of consent was much lower. For example, in New York, the age of consent was ten years until 1885. After 1885, age of consent laws changed around the country, reaching 16 in New York in 1889 and 18 in 1895. Prior to these changes the age of consent in most places in the United States was 10 or 12 years.” [15]
16. Caryn Neumann


“Historically the age of consent was set somewhere between 10 and 13 years, depending on the Era and the culture, and tending to coincide with female puberty. In modern United States, the age of consent ranges from 14 – 18 years with 16 years as the standard.” [16]
17. Martha Rosenthal:


“During colonial times in the United States, the age of consent was 10 (except in Delaware, where the age of consent was 7).” [17]
18. Paula S. Fass


“Age of consent laws rose from as low as ten to between thirteen (France 1863) AND SIXTEEN (England and Wales 1885).” [18]
19. Edward J. Wood says that Thomas Lord Berkley was contracted to a girl who was at the time 7 years old and were to consummate the marriage 4 years later, but due to illness the marriage was consummated the following year,


“Thomas, Lord Berkeley, was contracted to Margaret, daughter of Gerald Warren, Lord Lisle, in the forty-first year of Edward III.; and by reason of her tender age- she was then only about seven years old- it was arranged that she should remain with her father for four years; but sickness happening in the family, they were married in the November following.” [19]
 






Last edited:

TempestOfTempo

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Jan 29, 2018
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Everyone can plainly see for themselves that a certain group of "Muslims" here engage in behavior such as:
- Armchair diagnosing other posters who seem to be going through emotional or spiritual issues. Their "diagnosis" essentially includes first probing and inquiring the persons background and whats bothering them, then mocking and insulting the person, wishing the worst on them and asking to interact with the "demons" they have ascribed to the posters in turmoil. Quite the helping hand there eh?
- Constantly complaining about/attacking Christians and other groups/individuals while wholly refusing to address issues within their own Muslim communities.
- Claiming that in Islamic theology, Allah is the/a "father"... shirk much?
- Refusing to address why they support faulty fatwa's and hadeeth interpretations which allow for the EPIDEMIC of grown men engaging in forced marriages with children under the age of ten and the subsequent rapes of those children during the "marriage"...

But hey, perhaps one of them will muster the confidence to actually address the media they have requested... instead of typing posts of paragraphs addressing everything else?
 






TempestOfTempo

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Messages
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There is no concept of 'teenage years" in Islam. Throughout the centuries people regarded puberty as the time which identifies when a person has reached a 'marriageable age'.
This understanding can be seen from this verse in the Quran as well"

Test ˹the competence of˺ the orphans until they reach a marriageable age. Then if you feel they are capable of sound judgment, return their wealth to them. And do not consume it wastefully and hastily before they grow up ˹to demand it˺. If the guardian is well-off, they should not take compensation; but if the guardian is poor, let them take a reasonable provision. When you give orphans back their property, call in witnesses. And sufficient is Allah as a ˹vigilant˺ Reckoner. 4:6


Age of Consent in European & American History

What was the ‘Age of Consent’ in European and American history, prior to the 20th century? In this article, I shall bring forth evidences which demonstrate that the ‘Age of consent’ was indeed, very young, even by today’s standards. I will provide academic sources which show that girls were allowed to be married at the age of 10 years old and sometimes times, as young as 7 years old, legally. It was norm just over 100 years ago to see girls being married off at very young ages. In most cultures, the marriage would have been consummated at the onset of puberty.


1. Professor of history Margaret Wade Labarge




2. Professor Richard Wortley and Professor Stephen Smallbone, both of whom state that prior to the 1900s girls married very young,




3. In the book, ‘Sex and Society’,




4. Richard A. Posner is chief judge of the U.S court of appeals, Seventh Circuit Chicago. Katherine B. Silbaugh is associate Professor at Boston University School of Law, they say that before the 1900s age of consent was ten years old,




5. The Scottish Law prior to 1900s by Sir John Comyns and Stewart Kyd,




6. Professor of Sociology Anthony Joseph Paul Cortese says that a 50 year old man being with a girl under 10 (being intimate) Under United States law was legal until the mid 1960s,




7. Maureen Dabbagh is a writer and author. Born in Michigan, she serves as a Virginia Supreme Court Family Mediator, she echoes the same statements as previous authors,




8. Mike A. Males is an American sociologist who writes from a pro youth rights perspective. Males is a professor at the University of California, he writes,




9. Arthur Siccan Author of the Book: ‘What’s Wrong in America: A Look at Troublesome Issues in Our Country’, goes in a lot of detail on the issue of marriage at earlier times,




10. The ’American Bar Association’ Journal [August 1996]:




11. Sinikka Elliott




12. Susan M. Ross




13. Carolyn Cocca:




14. Merril D. Smith says that the age which a girl could marry was 10 to 13 in most societies,




15. Melissa Hope Ditmore




16. Caryn Neumann




17. Martha Rosenthal:




18. Paula S. Fass




19. Edward J. Wood says that Thomas Lord Berkley was contracted to a girl who was at the time 7 years old and were to consummate the marriage 4 years later, but due to illness the marriage was consummated the following year,



The discussion was regarding Muslims Desert flip-flop, not Americans/Christians/martians or anyone else... since you are apparently unable to follow along, here is the media which your "side" needs to address if you want to salvage any credibility for yourself here.
 






DavidSon

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The discussion was regarding Muslims Desert flip-flop, not Americans/Christians/martians or anyone else... since you are apparently unable to follow along, here is the media which your "side" needs to address if you want to salvage any credibility for yourself here.
Tempest you've got three or four threads going with the same debate over hadith. Brother there's so much more to life (and Islam). Please could you make a single topic to discuss what you want?
 






recure

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But hey, perhaps one of them will muster the confidence to actually address the media they have requested... instead of typing posts of paragraphs addressing everything else?
Not sure if you know him, but there was a fellow on here called Scimitar who was like the main Islamic apologist at one time; him and I used to get into it quite a bit. Interestingly, he also claimed that Aisha was 19-21 years old when Muhammad consummated his marriage with her. My takeaway from this matter is that he was not a real Muslim judging by the opinions of the present entourage regarding Muslims who assert such things. I somehow don’t think they would have told him that though.
 






TempestOfTempo

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Tempest you've got three or four threads going with the same debate over hadith. Brother there's so much more to life (and Islam). Please could you make a single topic to discuss what you want?
I agree it gets messy here... but as you can see when this topic is broached, the usual suspects engage nonstop... without actually addressing it. I have tried before (as have others) to engage in specific threads which are already established regarding the matter... and as others have also tried, I have made specific threads to dialog regarding the issue. The same cast of characters continuously deny, distract, deflect, lie, insult, accuse and etc. but never seem to actually address the heart of the matter. Since it involves child abuse, Im down to confront it when/wherever.

But I also apologize if I am becomming part of the issue myself by disrespecting your dialog. That wasnt my intent and if I have done so, I am sorry.
 






TempestOfTempo

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Not sure if you know him, but there was a fellow on here called Scimitar who was like the main Islamic apologist at one time; him and I used to get into it quite a bit. Interestingly, he also claimed that Aisha was 19-21 years old when Muhammad consummated his marriage with her. My takeaway from this matter is that he was not a real Muslim judging by the opinions of the present entourage regarding Muslims who assert such things. I somehow don’t think they would have told him that though.
You and your crowd continuously accusing others of not being Muslim doesnt offer the distraction yall seem to wish it would, and while it is insulting to read, it doesnt really bother me as much as yall might like to believe it does. You posted the video right there in your response... so can you address the information presented in it?
Edit: I may have misinterpreted your message and if I have done so, I apologize to you as well.
 






recure

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You and your crowd continuously accusing others of not being Muslim doesnt offer the distraction yall seem to wish it would, and while it is insulting to read, it doesnt really bother me as much as yall might like to believe it does. You posted the video right there in your response... so can you address the information presented in it?
Edit: I may have misinterpreted your message and if I have done so, I apologize to you as well.
I'm only pointing out the fact that someone like Scimitar would probably get a pass for making the same claim that got you slandered. I don't think I have personally accused anyone of not being a Muslim, even a cabalist like AspiringSoul is Muslim as far as I'm concerned, if that's what one professes to be.
 






TempestOfTempo

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I'm only pointing out the fact that someone like Scimitar would probably get a pass for making the same claim that got you slandered. I don't think I have personally accused anyone of not being a Muslim, even a cabalist like AspiringSoul is Muslim as far as I'm concerned, if that's what one professes to be.
Ok now I understand. And again, I apologize for taking your post out of context.
 






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