Who fell in Eden? Man or God?

hyorishthottie

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As Gen 3 states, in God's words, the moral code was within the tree of knowledge and that is why God said that after A & E ate of that knowledge, they became as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

IOW, they gained a moral sense which is what religions are supposed to teach, and my moral sense tell me it is whrong to adore a genocidal son murdering God.

Regards
DL
Okay I understand now that makes sense. but it's annoying to me cause had they not eaten the fruit and lived the way he expected / wanted them to they'd be blissfully naive to me and on par with all the other animals in the kingdom just having the ability to have free will and make actions that may affect their garden due to their emotions. it may sound crappy but if this is suppose to the only truth there is then I'm glad they screwed up. I mean I do want a peaceful world like den but realistically...it's well..not realistic or plausible. It would be an odd world to me.
 

hyorishthottie

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I agree.

Let me ask you what I asked just above.

Why would a good God put Satan right there beside his new children?

After giving her the power to deceive the whole world of course.

Would you do that to your child?

If you would, you would be quite the prick in my book as that is setting up your own child for a fall.

Regards
DL
Kinda true. I want to know or see someone give their point of view on why it seems god can only do so much and can not intervene despite making such big things happen like creating the world and A& E in the first place. It's like leaving your impressionable daugther around a predator type drug dealing guy and being angry she turns up not a virgin and preg anymore or stealing on a date with him. Diff story if she ran into the dude on her own but don't actively allow it to happen when your kids are in no place to be around them.

adam and eve were grown but nobody elaborates on what their mentality was like or nature since they did not understand morals or anything yet before eating the fruit they were just as impressionable as kids and I know god can't intervine every time something goes wrong. but he allowed that to happen. It'd be a different story if he blocked satan so many times or gave warnings to them. Making him be a snake isn't enough. For all we know maybe a&e did not have normal reaction responses to danger and see the snake as a threat. Cause no matter how you feel if a snake is known as harm wouldn't your first reaction be to runaway? Unless you're a child or in a special mental deficiency where you are not aware of the danger like non-deficient people are? I just don't get it.

Deep down I get it if I try to feel it in my heart but rationally no.
 

hyorishthottie

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The majority of people are being deceived by Satan. Satan has them believing that there is no God or devil or angels and demons. But I assure you that they are very real and anyone who has ever had contact with evil spirits would confirm that they are very sinister and there is nothing good about them. Satan is the leader of the fallen angels and he wants to cause as much evil as he can in this world. He can pose as an angel of light, but his ultimate goal is to destroy as many humans as he can. He has caused many to perish because of their unbelief in God and Jesus Christ as the savior. Satan would love for people to believe that he is god. That is his plan for the people to worship him. It is written that he is the father of lies. He will take complete control of the earth and demand people to take a mark of allegiance to him and worship him. Those who refuse will be executed, but those who comply will suffer the wrath of God. It is all written in black and white and it will happen regardless of whether people believe it or not. There will be many miraculous events that will unfold in the near future that will make clear the reality of God's words.
I do agree with that demons are out there for sure.
 

hyorishthottie

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Committing sin is not progression.
You are looking at it from a self-centered perspective.

It isn’t about what we *gain* from knowledge of right & wrong, it is about the fact that man/woman deliberately disobeyed God & doubted His Word.

There is nothing liberating about that.
how can they deliberately disobey in a gray zone?! the bible does not make any common sense nor elaborate on all the the underlying issues and factors that led to it. they sum it up as oh god said don't do this and they did it anyway so they suffered. nothing in life when you're human is that black and white. that's the problem with humanity in 2018 I swear within 10 years the world has gotten piss poor even worse than ever. we're human so unlike animals we don't even mate (have sex, procreate , whatever you call it) for the logical purpose of it, we have a million and one societal made up morals for it and 10x worse for women. Anyways, my point is there needs to be more light shed on why they did it.

yeah satan lured them into doing it but if anything god seems to have wanted that to happen anyway. If he didn't want it to happen he knew it would and this whole eden setting was just a test. He fell short in using common sense and being truthful with adam and eve. to my understanding theyw ere adults but living on earth for the first few days as childern / babies mentally. How can you expect them not to disobey when nobody told them literally why it was wrong? why the fruit was forbidden? tell them that there is an evil force lurking and not to trust anything or any sensations that sway their moral compass? tell them to only listen to him and no else? why just leave such a horrid figure in such a prestine new place with naive creatures who are different than the other creatures only to fail? that was an entire set up to fell from a logical stand point.

and it's within human nature sometimes to do what we are told not to do and our curiosity is peaked especially when someone is luring our curiosity further and we're impressionable with no real knowledge of the world. I'm just saying it's like telling an eight year old not to drink a glass or cup of beer (of course the kid does not know this) without telling the kid why it's bad or that it contains bad contents (or even just contents not meant for people his age) and leaving him alone with some horrible guy who either feeds it to him or tells him to drink it. if not telling just somehow swaying the kid to do so. kid drinks it. you as a parent come back and get upset at the kid only for doing what you said not to do without considering all the factors that is a clear set up for him to do it.

Also like I told the bishop liberal poster there is no clear indication of their personality, perspective, their thought process, what mental stage they were in; just so many things that would have this make more sense. They were new to the world physically but mentally how new? You can't make a rural beautiful world and dump advanced creatures on it and not expect a slip up especially when you don't take care of your children and teach them why they can't. Also it was wrong to have them realize they were naked at the end. God's whole planning of this was very human but since it's very human it needs to be seen as such and not as some granduer of amazing mystical power.

God made mis calculations according to this adam and eve story and it should be noted. They were never on the same level as a monkey or a damn fish even a giraffe and god should have taken responsibility if this is the case in the story to let them know that. Also making the both of them suffer is okay for their punishment but he kinda cursed all of man kind with the after affects of their poor decisions. that's not fair to some degree and I cannot blame Kane for turning on Abel and killing him. That was wrong and shitty but when you banish your only two humans out of the place they barely got to know due to a horrible mistake and put them in a place even worse with no resources for them to fend for themselves. Why must the rest of humanity centuries down the line pay for their mistakes especially Eve mistake since if I remember correctly she seemed more inclined and impressionable to do it and Adam did it just cause she did. We don't know how it would have went down if it was just Adam there. The creator should have waited at least a couple of years or decades until he brought a woman along or explained some things to Adam first before bringing the woman on board even if he wanted company.
 

Unknown Warrior

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That is an outright lie or a part of your delusion, unless you have proof or evidence.

Regards
DL
You call yourself gnostic Christian Bishop, what exactly is it that you believe? You say that God is a liar and I am delusional. If you do not believe that God can give eternal life, then why do you believe the story of Adam and Eve? Why would you even want to argue about it if you don't believe it? You claim that God is sinister, so does that make Satan good?
 
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Okay I understand now that makes sense. but it's annoying to me cause had they not eaten the fruit and lived the way he expected / wanted them to they'd be blissfully naive to me and on par with all the other animals in the kingdom just having the ability to have free will and make actions that may affect their garden due to their emotions. it may sound crappy but if this is suppose to the only truth there is then I'm glad they screwed up. I mean I do want a peaceful world like den but realistically...it's well..not realistic or plausible. It would be an odd world to me.
What annoys me is that people have forgotten that the Jews wrote that myth to show man's elevation and the Christians turned it into a fall.

Jews want intelligent thinkers while Christianity wants stupid followers who are easily controlled. You might recall that Christianity outlawed the reading of scriptures in the past and are anti-science.

Christianity and Islam want stupid sheeple, not intelligent free thinkers. Those are harder to fleece.

The only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Regards
DL
 
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Kinda true. I want to know or see someone give their point of view on why it seems god can only do so much and can not intervene despite making such big things happen like creating the world and A& E in the first place. It's like leaving your impressionable daugther around a predator type drug dealing guy and being angry she turns up not a virgin and preg anymore or stealing on a date with him. Diff story if she ran into the dude on her own but don't actively allow it to happen when your kids are in no place to be around them.

adam and eve were grown but nobody elaborates on what their mentality was like or nature since they did not understand morals or anything yet before eating the fruit they were just as impressionable as kids and I know god can't intervine every time something goes wrong. but he allowed that to happen. It'd be a different story if he blocked satan so many times or gave warnings to them. Making him be a snake isn't enough. For all we know maybe a&e did not have normal reaction responses to danger and see the snake as a threat. Cause no matter how you feel if a snake is known as harm wouldn't your first reaction be to runaway? Unless you're a child or in a special mental deficiency where you are not aware of the danger like non-deficient people are? I just don't get it.

Deep down I get it if I try to feel it in my heart but rationally no.
Literal reading can never make sense of a myth.

Better to KIS and see Eden for what it was. A myth of a rite of passage with children growing up by gaining a moral sense and joining the adults.

Literalism is for those who do not want to know the truth.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

Best to see Eden the way the Jews did, after all, it is their myth.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

"‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

Regards
DL
 
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I do agree with that demons are out there for sure.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said thatwhen asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg,said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Regards
DL
 
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You call yourself gnostic Christian Bishop, what exactly is it that you believe? You say that God is a liar and I am delusional. If you do not believe that God can give eternal life, then why do you believe the story of Adam and Eve? Why would you even want to argue about it if you don't believe it? You claim that God is sinister, so does that make Satan good?
Count the murders by God and by Satan. Which would you liker to meet?

I do not literally believe the story of Adam and Eve. Literalism is for fools.

I speak of it and against the way it is interpreted because literalist fools have used it to make second class citizens out of women forever. Easier to push their misogynous policies if people think we fell instead of being elevated the way the story is meant to be read.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg,said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Regards
DL
 

hyorishthottie

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Literal reading can never make sense of a myth.

Better to KIS and see Eden for what it was. A myth of a rite of passage with children growing up by gaining a moral sense and joining the adults.

Literalism is for those who do not want to know the truth.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/doubtingexodus.htm

Best to see Eden the way the Jews did, after all, it is their myth.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

"‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

Regards
DL
That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing these links. cause literal reading of it just made more confusion cause it seems impossible to uphold all that is stated in the bible or torah. I wish the stories of eden and A&E were told this way simply. It's always blown up out of proportion.
 

Unknown Warrior

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Count the murders by God and by Satan. Which would you liker to meet?

I do not literally believe the story of Adam and Eve. Literalism is for fools.

I speak of it and against the way it is interpreted because literalist fools have used it to make second class citizens out of women forever. Easier to push their misogynous policies if people think we fell instead of being elevated the way the story is meant to be read.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/20/comparative-theodicy/

‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg,said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
So you are saying that the story of creation is a myth and should not be taken literally. What about Satan and the fallen angels? Do you think that they are just a myth? Jesus taught that there would be eternal life for His followers, is that also a myth? If that is the case, then you might as well say that the entire Bible is just a book of myths. However, there are many people who have had miraculous experiences and know that God is very real and take the word of God very serious. What would it take for you to reconsider your beliefs? The antichrist will appear on the scene in the very near future and claim that he is God and will demand worship by penalty of death to those who oppose him. The false doctrines of devils are taught throughout the world and all religions except true Christianity are accepted in society. There will come the day when everyone will know the truth but some will still reject God and choose to follow Satan.


Regards
DL
 
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That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing these links. cause literal reading of it just made more confusion cause it seems impossible to uphold all that is stated in the bible or torah. I wish the stories of eden and A&E were told this way simply. It's always blown up out of proportion.
Indeed. That is because without the lie of Original Sin that the church put on Eden, they could not fleece Christians as much as the false guilt would vanish.

It is all about the immoral Christian agenda.

Regards
DL
 
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