Who Changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday?

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sometime, you gotta read between the line.

Isaiah 7:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
The context of that verse says it was a sign for King Ahaz that “God would be with him” concerning the threat he was facing.
 
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They are the same God and He doesn't change. The Ten Commandments, God’s moral law represent His character and people of the Old covenant were under the law just as those of us of the New covenant. With the old covenant they had a sacrificial system and the ceremonial laws which represented Jesus' death. Jesus’ fulfillment of the promise by His life and death on the cross is the new covenant.

There are at least 60 Old Testament prophecies that were fulfilled by Christ in the New Testament. But there are more than 300 references to the Messiah in the Old Testament,
For me, I don’t see how “an eye for an eye” and “turn the other cheek” are not opposites. It’s either one or the other or God changed His ways.

As far as the prophecies, I disagree. Most prophecies are terribly taken out of context or hardly even prophecies at all. And the Bible went from God and God alone being worshiped in the OT to God AND His Son being worshipped in the NT. The only way to reconcile these things is by placing the NT over the OT in terms of importance. And this is the only way Christianity even makes sense. To me that is....
 

phipps

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For me, I don’t see how “an eye for an eye” and “turn the other cheek” are not opposites. It’s either one or the other or God changed His ways.

As far as the prophecies, I disagree. Most prophecies are terribly taken out of context or hardly even prophecies at all. And the Bible went from God and God alone being worshiped in the OT to God AND His Son being worshipped in the NT. The only way to reconcile these things is by placing the NT over the OT in terms of importance. And this is the only way Christianity even makes sense. To me that is....
For me, I don’t see how “an eye for an eye” and “turn the other cheek” are not opposites. It’s either one or the other or God changed His ways.
Let me put up the verses in the Bible that talk about an "eye for eye" and try and see what God was talking about and what He meant. Lets read them in context shall we?

Exodus 21:20-25

20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Deuteronomy 19:10-21

10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.
11 But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities:
12 Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.
13 Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.
14 Thou shalt not remove thy neighbour's landmark, which they of old time have set in thine inheritance, which thou shalt inherit in the land that the Lord thy God giveth thee to possess it.
15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the Lord, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.


The rule of “an eye for an eye” was part of God’s Law given by Moses to ancient Israel in the Old covenant. It meant that when dealing out justice to wrongdoers, the punishment should fit the crime. The rule applied to deliberate injurious acts against another person. Regarding a wilful offender, the Mosaic Law stated: “ Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again." Leviticus 24:20

It helped appointed judges to impose punishments that were appropriate, being neither too harsh nor too lenient. The rule also served as a deterrent to any who would intentionally harm others or scheme to do so. “And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.,” explained the Law. Deuteronomy 19:20

This rule is not binding on Christians. It was part of the Mosaic Law (Old covenant), which Jesus’ sacrificial death abolished. Romans 10:4.

Even so, the rule provides insight into God’s way of thinking. For example, it shows that God values justice. (Psalm 89:14) It also reveals his standard of justice—namely, that wrongdoers should be disciplined “to the proper degree.”Jeremiah 30:11.


Misconception: The “eye for an eye” rule was excessively harsh.

Fact: The rule did not authorize a heavy-handed, cruel application of justice. Rather, when properly applied, it meant that qualified judges would impose retribution for an offence only after first considering the circumstances involved and the extent to which the offence was deliberate. (Exodus 21:28-30; Numbers 35:22-25) The “eye for an eye” rule thus acted as a restraint against extremes in punishment.

Fact: The Mosaic Law itself stated: “Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord” (Leviticus 19:18) Rather than promoting personal vengeance, the Law encouraged people to trust in God and in the legal system that he had authorized to right any wrongs.—Deuteronomy 32:35.

God has never changed and never will change His ways. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Hebrews 13:8. He is always just in everything that He does and I trust Him completely. In order to get to know Him we have to study His word and pray for guidance and understanding because reading the Bible is like hunting for treasure. We have to hunt all over the Bible to know what it says about one subject. We won't find the answer all in one place. A concordance helps as well.

As far as the prophecies, I disagree. Most prophecies are terribly taken out of context or hardly even prophecies at all. And the Bible went from God and God alone being worshiped in the OT to God AND His Son being worshipped in the NT. The only way to reconcile these things is by placing the NT over the OT in terms of importance. And this is the only way Christianity even makes sense. To me that is....
This applies to what I've just said above, you need understanding from God to understand prophecy. We cannot do it on our own. The Prophecies are meant to be understood otherwise they wouldn't be in the Bible. And there are people who understand Bible prophecy as it was meant to by God. In every generation there are always a people of God who have His truth.

You clearly don't study the Bible otherwise you wouldn't say what you've said about God and the worship of His son. Jesus may be called the Son of God but He is God fully. The whole Bible is about Jesus. From Genesis to the Revelation. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:1-4.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:14.


The God of the Old Testament is not different to the God of the New Testament. Israel was under law and we are under grace. If we study the sanctuary system, we can see that the Gospel was preached to the Jews through type (a person, thing or event that foreshadows a later, often more important, antitype or fulfilment).

Those who entered into salvation in the Old Testament were those who trusted the merits of the blood of Jesus Christ, and they demonstrated their faith by bringing a lamb and slaying it. They looked forward in faith to the atoning death of Jesus. We look back in faith to the same death and are saved in exactly the same way. Be very certain that the entire redeemed host throughout eternity will be singing the same song of deliverance, exalting the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world.
 
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Let me put up the verses in the Bible that talk about an "eye for eye" and try and see what God was talking about and what He meant. Lets read them in context shall we?

Exodus 21:20-25

20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Deuteronomy 19:10-21

10 That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.
11 But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities:
12 Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.
13 Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee.
14 Thou shalt not remove thy neighbour's landmark, which they of old time have set in thine inheritance, which thou shalt inherit in the land that the Lord thy God giveth thee to possess it.
15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the Lord, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.


The rule of “an eye for an eye” was part of God’s Law given by Moses to ancient Israel in the Old covenant. It meant that when dealing out justice to wrongdoers, the punishment should fit the crime. The rule applied to deliberate injurious acts against another person. Regarding a wilful offender, the Mosaic Law stated: “ Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again." Leviticus 24:20

It helped appointed judges to impose punishments that were appropriate, being neither too harsh nor too lenient. The rule also served as a deterrent to any who would intentionally harm others or scheme to do so. “And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.,” explained the Law. Deuteronomy 19:20

This rule is not binding on Christians. It was part of the Mosaic Law (Old covenant), which Jesus’ sacrificial death abolished. Romans 10:4.

Even so, the rule provides insight into God’s way of thinking. For example, it shows that God values justice. (Psalm 89:14) It also reveals his standard of justice—namely, that wrongdoers should be disciplined “to the proper degree.”Jeremiah 30:11.


Misconception: The “eye for an eye” rule was excessively harsh.

Fact: The rule did not authorize a heavy-handed, cruel application of justice. Rather, when properly applied, it meant that qualified judges would impose retribution for an offence only after first considering the circumstances involved and the extent to which the offence was deliberate. (Exodus 21:28-30; Numbers 35:22-25) The “eye for an eye” rule thus acted as a restraint against extremes in punishment.

Fact: The Mosaic Law itself stated: “Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord” (Leviticus 19:18) Rather than promoting personal vengeance, the Law encouraged people to trust in God and in the legal system that he had authorized to right any wrongs.—Deuteronomy 32:35.

God has never changed and never will change His ways. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Hebrews 13:8. He is always just in everything that He does and I trust Him completely. In order to get to know Him we have to study His word and pray for guidance and understanding because reading the Bible is like hunting for treasure. We have to hunt all over the Bible to know what it says about one subject. We won't find the answer all in one place. A concordance helps as well.



This applies to what I've just said above, you need understanding from God to understand prophecy. We cannot do it on our own. The Prophecies are meant to be understood otherwise they wouldn't be in the Bible. And there are people who understand Bible prophecy as it was meant to by God. In every generation there are always a people of God who have His truth.

You clearly don't study the Bible otherwise you wouldn't say what you've said about God and the worship of His son. Jesus may be called the Son of God but He is God fully. The whole Bible is about Jesus. From Genesis to the Revelation. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:1-4.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:14.


The God of the Old Testament is not different to the God of the New Testament. Israel was under law and we are under grace. If we study the sanctuary system, we can see that the Gospel was preached to the Jews through type (a person, thing or event that foreshadows a later, often more important, antitype or fulfilment).

Those who entered into salvation in the Old Testament were those who trusted the merits of the blood of Jesus Christ, and they demonstrated their faith by bringing a lamb and slaying it. They looked forward in faith to the atoning death of Jesus. We look back in faith to the same death and are saved in exactly the same way. Be very certain that the entire redeemed host throughout eternity will be singing the same song of deliverance, exalting the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world.
To be honest I don’t think what you’re saying can be supported by the OT alone which is why I personally reject it. The OT doesn’t support a Father/son god (well maybe with Tammuz). It doesn’t say anything of the laws being a foreshadowing of a future human/god sacrifice. It doesnt say anything about a gospel being given to the Jews/Israelites either. Those are things that aren’t clear till the NT came around. Which leads to my point that to be Christian you have to place that over the OT in terms of importance. And maybe that works for you but I rather base my faith in what God (allegedly) said in the OT. The bible says in the latter days the Israelites would worship gods their forefathers never knew. And their forefathers never knew anyone named Jesus.

As far as the eye for an eye law, I think my point stands. The law says an eye for an eye. If a guy takes your coat, he loses his coat plus 1/5th. Jesus comes later and says "if a person takes your coat, give him another one". Wheres that law/commandment/suggestion in the OT? I studied the bible enough to come to the conclusion that its impossible to believe both parts of it in totality. One will have to decide on one or the other to hold as more important than the other.. Most of the doctrines of christianity come from the NT with the OT only being used to back up the doctrines of the NT. When they dont it becomes "that doesnt apply to us" even though God said the same law applies to foreigners and natives.....
 

phipps

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To be honest I don’t think what you’re saying can be supported by the OT alone which is why I personally reject it. The OT doesn’t support a Father/son god (well maybe with Tammuz). It doesn’t say anything of the laws being a foreshadowing of a future human/god sacrifice. It doesnt say anything about a gospel being given to the Jews/Israelites either. Those are things that aren’t clear till the NT came around. Which leads to my point that to be Christian you have to place that over the OT in terms of importance. And maybe that works for you but I rather base my faith in what God (allegedly) said in the OT. The bible says in the latter days the Israelites would worship gods their forefathers never knew. And their forefathers never knew anyone named Jesus.

As far as the eye for an eye law, I think my point stands. The law says an eye for an eye. If a guy takes your coat, he loses his coat plus 1/5th. Jesus comes later and says "if a person takes your coat, give him another one". Wheres that law/commandment/suggestion in the OT? I studied the bible enough to come to the conclusion that its impossible to believe both parts of it in totality. One will have to decide on one or the other to hold as more important than the other.. Most of the doctrines of christianity come from the NT with the OT only being used to back up the doctrines of the NT. When they dont it becomes "that doesnt apply to us" even though God said the same law applies to foreigners and natives.....
You don't know what you're talking about do you? If you did, even though you didn't believe, you would know about ceremonial laws and the sanctuary system. There is nothing I've told you that is alleged. Its all in the Bible. I already explained (will do again) that the Bible needs deep study. And we need guidance from the Holy spirit to understand.

The Two Laws

On Mount Sinai, Moses received both law of God and a precise set of instructions for the sacrificial system. These were to form the basis of the religious ceremonies of the Israelites.
Both sets of instructions were called the law, but they were different in that the law of Ten Commandments defined what sin was, whereas the ceremonial law contained the solution to the sin problem. God wrote the Ten Commandments, and Moses wrote the ceremonial law, or book of the law.

The Law of Ten Commandments

And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God (Exodus 31:18).

And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables (Exodus 32:16).

When Moses returned from meeting with God on Sinai he found that the Israelites had made for themselves a golden calf to worship. Moses was so angry that he broke the tablets of stone. Then God said to him, “Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood. And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark” (Deuteronomy 10:1-2).

When Moses broke the first tablets, it symbolized the law of God that had been broken by God’s people when they served the golden calf. The law did not change as a result of the people’s sin. Rather, God wrote the law again onto the new tables of stone that Moses fashioned, symbolizing that we have to be co-workers together with God in upholding His law. Only in God’s strength can we uphold the law, but we must cooperate with Him in this regard.

The two tables of stone were placed inside the Ark of the Covenant.

The Ceremonial Law

This law of types and ceremonies was written by Moses in the book of the law, and was placed beside the Ark.

And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee (Deuteronomy 31:24-26 emphasis added).

These two sets of laws, the one moral and the other ceremonial, were thus entirely different and served different purposes.

I will post about the sanctuary system in a separate post.

Maybe now you will understand more about the difference between the Old and New covenants. I've already said everything there is to say about an "eye for and eye" and it is pretty clear and shows us how God judges and will judge us all. He is fair and just in everything He does. Praise be to Him.
 
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phipps

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@KoncreteMind,

The Purpose of Scripture

One of the purposes of God's word is to give us hope. "For whatsoever things were written afore time were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

Another purpose of the Scriptures is to reveal Jesus as Saviour. "Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39). The Scriptures were intended to teach us how to become saved and live eternally (2 Timothy 3:15). It is God's desire to give every human eternal life and save them from the results of sin.

The inspiration and preservation of Scripture fit into the loving character of God.

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:3-4).

As we study Scripture, we must rightly divide the Word (2 Timothy 2:15) and ask for the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. That is what the Holy Spirit was sent to do (John 16:13). As we open our hearts to the Spirit's influence, God will guide us (2 Corinthians 2:13).

When we approach God's Word with an open mind, He will guide us. "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself" (John 7:17). We are assured repeatedly in the Bible that truth is contained in God's Word. In fact, in more than 3000 places the Bible declares itself inspired. It does not contradict itself. It is either inspired by God or a brilliant fraud. Certainly it is inconceivable that a Book so accurate through the centuries could be considered anything less than inspired by God.

In the Bible God calls the Old and New testaments, the two witnesses, John 5:39, Zechariah 4:1-14; Psalms 119:130, 105; John 12:48 .


Now the sanctuary system and it what it meant/means.


The Symbolic Sanctuary

The ceremonial law prefigured the ministry of Christ. We can see this by studying the ancient sanctuary. Moses had to construct the sanctuary exactly according to the pattern shown him on mount Sinai:

And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them (Exodus 25:8).

... as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount (Hebrews 8:5).

The sanctuary with furniture....

The earthly Old Testament sanctuary, and the entire ministry associated with it, reflects the ministry of Christ on our behalf. It is also a miniature enactment of the much greater ministry of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary, of which the earthly sanctuary was merely “a figure for the time then present” (Hebrews 9:9). The earthly was a copy of the heavenly.

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle (Hebrews 8:5).

Christ entered the heavenly sanctuary that was not built by human hands after His resurrection and ascension into heaven.

For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us (Hebrews 9:24).

The price for sin was paid for at the cross. Justice was satisfied, but the ministry of Christ did not end there. Sin still exists and sinners still have to have access to God through Christ.

The teaching that Christ's work was finished on the cross is inconsistent with the model God gave us in the sanctuary. Jesus' death and resurrection only began His ministry in the sanctuary. He was the Lamb on the altar of burnt offerings in the outer court of the tabernacle, but we also must travel into all the other areas of the sanctuary to understand the fullness of His ministry.

Jesus still has many roles to fulfill before the sin problem can be fully eradicated from us and this world forever. We serve a risen Saviour, who is our High Priest, our Advocate, our Judge, and our King who is interceding in our behalf in the heavenly sanctuary.

We have such an high priest...in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man (Hebrews 8:1-2).


The Laver and the Altar of Offering

The laver and all the vessels of the court that were used in the services connected with the altar were of brass. The entire body of the whole burnt offering and portions of various offerings were burned upon this altar. It consumed that which typified sin. Sin separates us from God, and all sin must be put away before the sinner can be at-one-ment with God. Therefore the work done upon this altar was a symbol of the final destruction of sin, which will be necessary before the redeemed can enjoy their eternal inheritance. We must remember that Christ was the Lamb who was slain, and He could not begin the rest of the sanctuary work without first going through the sacrifice on the altar in the courtyard. The services in the courtyard represented the work on Earth, while the inner sanctuary work was for the work done in heaven.


The Golden Candlestick

The golden candlestick with its seven golden lamps was on the south side of the first apartment of the sanctuary. It was made of gold beaten into shape by the workman's hammer. Christ, in explaining to John the meaning of what he had seen, said, "The seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches" (Revelation 1:12-20). The Church, represented by candlesticks, is to hold the Light of the world, Christ, high for everyone to see.


The Table of Shewbread

The table of shewbread, or showbread, was placed on the north side of the first apartment of the sanctuary. On the Sabbath day the Levites made twelve loaves unleavened bread. During the entire week the bread lay on the table. At the end of the week it was removed and eaten by the priests. This bread symbolizes the twelve tribes of Israel in that time. However, it also represented Christ—the Bread of Life—and His living Word that brings life. We are to eat this Bread of Life by reading the Bible and obeying its life-giving words.


The Altar of Incense

The golden altar, or altar of incense, was before the veil in the first apartment of the sanctuary. The high priest alone was to perform the sacred duty of placing incense before the Lord on this altar. The altar and the fragrant incense in the earthly sanctuary were an example of the work our great High Priest, Jesus, is performing for us (Hebrews 8:5). Our prayers, like incense, go up to God with the help of our High Priest.
Romans 8:26 tells us that we "know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." This means that sometimes we don't know how to pray, but God can read our hearts, and through His Spirit, He is listening deeply to what we are saying. The sincere prayer a pleasure to God. He wants to be asked for the help we need because He so much wants to help us.


The Ark of the Covenant

The broken law contained in the Ark was the only reason for all the sacrificial services, both typical and antitypical. The cover of the Ark was called the mercy seat, and was of pure gold. There is great consolation in the fact that the Lord Himself covered the broken law with a mercy seat; and then He, the merciful God, took His position upon that seat, so that every sinner who comes confessing his sins, may receive mercy and pardon.
 
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You don't know what you're talking about do you? If you did, even though you didn't believe, you would know about ceremonial laws and the sanctuary system. There is nothing I've told you that is alleged. Its all in the Bible. I already explained (will do again) that the Bible needs deep study. And we need guidance from the Holy spirit to understand.
To answer both your posts in one, I dont understand what "your" ceremonial and moral law explanation has to do with what I said. Theres a moral obligation to do every command that God gives so every commandment from Him, even the ones you call "ceremonial", is a moral one. Differentiating the two seems like semantics. But even if we separate the two, whats that have to do with one side of the bible saying "eye for an eye" and the other saying "turn the other cheek"? If you agree that the first was a law given by God and that He rules based on that, can you say that in His kingdom if someone comes to steal your coat He'd suggest you give them two? Heck, in modern times what Christian gives a robber even more than the robber came for? The commandment seems like a way for the oppressors to create a pacified oppressed state rather than a "moral" law to make one side be the bigger person. It seems to benefit them. When they do wrong, dont fight back, just turn the other cheek and say God will get them later. I absolutely see why they'd support such a belief (not that Im suggesting anyone fight or revolt).But anyways if Im wrong by saying they're opposite you're free to show the law/suggestion either being explicitly stated or by practice in the OT. Which leads to your second post...

Yes, I agree that the NT says that the things in the OT foreshadowed things in the NT. What Im saying is that the OT doesnt say that the things happening in it, foreshadow something to come later. It doesnt say that the Creator is a father/son unit. It doesnt say that the Creator would send 1/3 of Hisself to be born of a virgin and die for people's sins. And ultimately it doesnt even name "Jesus" at all. I understand that the NT says these things. But I think the NT says these things because it was created to get people (mainly Israel) off worshiping their Creator by introducing them to foreign, if not paganistic beliefs.
 
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phipps

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Jesus and the Sabbath

Jesus used the Sabbath day to announce His mission on Earth (Luke 4:16-19). In Isaiah 42:21, the prophet predicts that the Messiah would come to magnify the law, not to change it. InMatthew 24:20, Jesus alludes to the Sabbath in connection with future generations. Jesus also told his followers that He did not abolish that law:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Matthew 5:17).

If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15).

For I am the LORD, I change not (Malachi 3:6)



As we can readily see in the chart above, God's law is a transcript of His character. It cannot change, just as God does not change.

Did Jesus change the law or the Sabbath? No. He kept His Father’s commandments, for He said, “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

He kept the Sabbath according to Luke 4:16: “And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read.”

Jesus also indicated that the Sabbath would be sacred even after His death. With reference to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, He said, “Pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day” (Matthew 24:20).
 

cfowen

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Jesus and the Sabbath

Jesus used the Sabbath day to announce His mission on Earth (Luke 4:16-19). In Isaiah 42:21, the prophet predicts that the Messiah would come to magnify the law, not to change it. InMatthew 24:20, Jesus alludes to the Sabbath in connection with future generations. Jesus also told his followers that He did not abolish that law:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Matthew 5:17).

If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15).

For I am the LORD, I change not (Malachi 3:6)



As we can readily see in the chart above, God's law is a transcript of His character. It cannot change, just as God does not change.

Did Jesus change the law or the Sabbath? No. He kept His Father’s commandments, for He said, “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

He kept the Sabbath according to Luke 4:16: “And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read.”

Jesus also indicated that the Sabbath would be sacred even after His death. With reference to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, He said, “Pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day” (Matthew 24:20).
Your chart is really neat, but the right side of it has absolutely nothing to do with us Gentiles (you and me) under PURE GRACE that have lived during the last 1900 years. Actually, it has nothing to do with the Jews today, because Israel was set aside 1955 years ago. In God's eyes, the Jews are just another bunch of Gentiles. Their salvation in individual and they have to believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to besaved, just like us. Grace is the opposite of Law. Grace is unmerited favor. You can do absolutely nothing to obtain it. Grace is purely a gift. The sabbath is part of the Law and no Gentile, that wasn't a proselyte, was ever commanded to keep the sabbath or any other part of the Law.

The Gentiles in Acts were part of Israel because they were grafted into Israel, but I don't recall any of them having to keep the sabbath. In the meeting in Ac 15, where the Judiazers tried to make the Gentiles who were grafted into Israel, and were partaking of Israel's blessings, since they had none of their own, keep the law. The apostles agreed with Paul that that was unnecessary, and ended up giving these Gentiles 4 ordinances they had to keep to stay in the Jewish church, in lieu of keeping the Law. These 4 ordinances were given to prevent them from offending the Jews.

Rom 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Gal 5:4

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


What is there about these next 4 verses that you find it impossible to wrap your mind around? According to this scripture, Christ's ministry was pointed ONLY to Israel. Nothing Christ ever said was a command TO us Gentiles.

Mt 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mt 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Rom 15:8

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Jn 1:31

And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

---Israel (12 tribes) and the Gentiles are ALWAYS treated differently by God.
---Jesus Christ NEVER seeked out a Gentile to preach to during His earthly ministry.
---The only Gentile that any of 12 ever ministered to, during the Gospels and Acts, was Cornelius, by Peter, in Acts 10
---Besides Christ, nothing that God ever gave to Israel, was ever given to the Gentiles
---Christ never gave a commandment to any Gentile, then or now.
---In the words of Christ, there was no information concerning the Gentile's future.
---If Christ gave nothing to the Gentiles, as a group, during his ministry, what right do we have to claim anything He said and gave, today?
---Where does it specifically say that the Gentiles were ever told to keep the Law?
---From Gen 12 through the end of Acts, the Gentiles never had ANY blessings, of their own, from God.
---In the OT, nothing given to Israel was EVER given to the Gentiles. What right do we have to claim any of those things today?

Here's a short list of things given to, or were about Israel, only, that were never, ever given to, or were about us Gentiles.:
---the Lord's prayer
---the Lord's supper,
---Christ's gospel of the Kingdom
---the Great Commission
---the churches in the Gospels and Acts (we have a new church in Eph and Col),
---the New Covenant,
---the sermon on the mount,
---all of the Law, water baptism,
---the Gifts of the Spirit,
---the idea that we are the seed of Abraham,
---the New Jerusalem,
---the idea that we are now part of Israel,
---the idea that Israel are God's chosen people at the present time (Israel was actually set aside in about 63AD),
---that prophecy is being fulfilled today
---that the present nation of Israel was the fulfillment of prophecy,
---and, of course, the favorite, the Rapture
And that's only the tip of the iceberg

If you really think that any of Christ's ministry was meant for Gentiles, as a group, I have this bridge for sale.

The ONLY blessings EVER given to the Gentiles, alone, that weren't borrowed from Israel, are found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles - Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon. Everything any of us will ever need to know, during this 2000 year all-Gentile, no-Israel period, about our walk and our future, is found ONLY in those 7 books. If you look hard enough, you can even get saved from those 7 books. In there, you discover your Hope, your Calling, and the rules and directions governing your Hope and Calling. Nowhere else in the other 59, all-Israel books, can you find this information - period.
 
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cfowen

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Nothing I saw on that site has any application to anyone living during the last 1955 years, since, at the present time, Israel doesn't exist in God's eyes. Gentile Saints that believe any of those 100% Jewish things are in danger of never seeing Heaven and, instead, spending eternity on the earth. See the very incomplete list above in my last post. The only books that tell us Gentiles our Hope, Calling, rules, directions, and anything concerning our future, are Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles. Nothing in the OT, the Gospels, the Acts, or Patl's Acts books will give us any information concerning these things.
 
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cfowen

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Thanks for the link and info. I pray that we all follow Jesus' example and observe the Sabbath like He did and hopeefully in heaven for eternity.
Christ was a minister to Israel, ONLY, Rom 15:8. We are to follow Paul, who followed Christ. Nothing Christ preached during His ministry was directed to Gentiles. He was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, Mt 15:24. He did talk to a few Gentiles, but, He never preached His Gospel of the Kingdom to them. Every word Paul wrote was God-breathed by Jesus Christ, during the many special revelations Paul received from Christ throughout his (Paul's) ministry. So, when you listen to Paul, you are essentially listening to Christ, but about Gentile things.
 
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meeeeeeeee

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I apologise for only posting links, however anything I could possibly Saturday has already been written. Israel is no longer a nation, it is all who follow God and obey his commands. His Sabbath does apply to us because He instituted His day of rest at the beginning of the world during creation, long before the nation of Israel or any Jew was alive.
http://www.remnantofgod.org/israel.htm

Nothing I saw on that site has any application to anyone living during the last 1955 years, since, at the present time, Israel doesn't exist in God's eyes. Gentile Saints that believe any of those 100% Jewish things are in danger of never seeing Heaven and, instead, spending eternity on the earth. See the very incomplete list above in my last post. The only books that tell us Gentiles our Hope, Calling, rules, directions, and anything concerning our future, are Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles. Nothing in the OT, the Gospels, the Acts, or Patl's Acts books will give us any information concerning these things.
 

Todd

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The rule of “an eye for an eye” was part of God’s Law given by Moses to ancient Israel in the Old covenant. It meant that when dealing out justice to wrongdoers, the punishment should fit the crime.

Even so, the rule provides insight into God’s way of thinking. For example, it shows that God values justice. (Psalm 89:14) It also reveals his standard of justice—namely, that wrongdoers should be disciplined “to the proper degree.”Jeremiah 30:11.

Fact: The rule did not authorize a heavy-handed, cruel application of justice. Rather, when properly applied, it meant that qualified judges would impose retribution for an offence only after first considering the circumstances involved and the extent to which the offence was deliberate. (Exodus 21:28-30; Numbers 35:22-25) The “eye for an eye” rule thus acted as a restraint against extremes in punishment.

Fact: The Mosaic Law itself stated: “Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord” (Leviticus 19:18) Rather than promoting personal vengeance, the Law encouraged people to trust in God and in the legal system that he had authorized to right any wrongs.—Deuteronomy 32:35.

God has never changed and never will change His ways. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Hebrews 13:8. He is always just in everything that He does and I trust Him completely. In order to get to know Him we have to study His word and pray for guidance and understanding because reading the Bible is like hunting for treasure. We have to hunt all over the Bible to know what it says about one subject. We won't find the answer all in one place. A concordance helps as well.
Bravo....this is wonderful. All the more reason to reject the doctrine of eternal torment for unbelievers. The punishment of eternal torment does not fit into "God's way of thinking" as you stated above.
 

Todd

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Christ was a minister to Israel, ONLY, Rom 15:8. We are to follow Paul, who followed Christ. Nothing Christ preached during His ministry was directed to Gentiles. He was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, Mt 15:24. He did talk to a few Gentiles, but, He never preached His Gospel of the Kingdom to them. Every word Paul wrote was God-breathed by Jesus Christ, during the many special revelations Paul received from Christ throughout his (Paul's) ministry. So, when you listen to Paul, you are essentially listening to Christ, but about Gentile things.

At least someone here is honest about being a "Pauline" Christian and admiting they believe the words of Paul are more important than the words of Jesus. I disagree with your premise, but commend you for being honest about what you believe.
 

cfowen

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At least someone here is honest about being a "Pauline" Christian and admiting they believe the words of Paul are more important than the words of Jesus. I disagree with your premise, but commend you for being honest about what you believe.
The red words are no more God-breathed than the black words. EVERY word is God-breathed, but God treats Jews and Gentiles differently. What He says and gives to Israel is totally different than what He says and gives to Gentiles. Except for Christ, Himself, I can think of nothing ever given to Israel that was said to be given to the Gentiles, except a plot of land, way back when the land was divided up among the tribes - I don't recall the verse. During Christ's ministry, the Gentiles were considered nothing better than dogs, even by Christ, as proven in Matthew 15:26. Christ was not sent to minister to Gentiles. period! He was sent ONLY to Israel, Matthew 15:24 . When He was in a position where He had to talk to a Gentile, He never preached the Gospel of the Kingdom to them.

People that get their doctrine from Christ's words are in danger of not being chosen to spend eternity in Heaven. The only words written TO and ABOUT Gentiles today are found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles. Only there will you find the Hope and Calling of Gentiles today. Only the Gentiles in those 7 books have a calling of spending eternity in the Highest Heaven, where Christ sits at the right hand of God, Ephesians 1:20 (Christ) and Ephesians 2:6 (Us). No one in the other 59, 100% Israel books ever had a chance to go to this Highest Heaven, The Holiest of all, in the uncreated Universe where Glory is located..

Everyone on earth is Called to this Highest Heaven, but few are Chosen. Very few have been given the eyes to see this Hope of their Calling in Paul's 7 after-Acts books - see Ephesians 1:17-18 . Heaven can only be obtained by seeing it, believing it, and claiming it in those 7 books (Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon) and God won't give you the eyes of understanding to SEE it as long as you believe all those Jewish things, in the other 59 books, belong to you, as they teach in the denominational synagogues (churches?), where preachers teach unobtainable Jewish doctrine to unsuspecting Gentiles.

God has given you a way to sort all of this out, in 2 Timothy 2:15, where He tells you that, if you'll rightly divide (correctly CUT) His Word, He'll approve of you. The Greek words translated "rightly divide" imply that only ONE single CUT is needed. It seems obvious that this cut can only be made in a place where, after cutting, you will find 100% Israel on one side of the cut and 100% Gentiles on the other side of the cut. The only place in the Bible this is possible is after Acts and before Ephesians. Then, you eliminate everything given to Israel in those 59 all-Israel books and claim ONLY what has been given to Gentiles in Paul's 7 post-Acts books.

Below is a short list of the myriad of Jewish things that you have been erroneously taught applies TO you, that you must eliminate from your doctrine if you want to be given the eyes to SEE your true calling, ONLY found in Eph, Col, etc. If you die without seeing the true Hope of your Calling, you will likely end up going through the White Throne Judgment and spending eternity on the New Earth, along with the nation of Israel and all those in history without a Calling, like Adam and the malefactor on the cross.

It took me 10 years to totally eliminate all this Jewish baggage from my brain. I do believe that once God sees you're trying to do it, He will allow you to see your real Gentile Hope, ONLY found in Paul's after Acts epistles. One of my mentors guessed that only about 10 out of every million saints are able to see it. For us that do see it, we all say the same thing, at first, "I can't understand why everyone can't see this. It's all there in black and white, as plain as the nose on your face." And it is. It was all in a Mystery, hid in God since the world began, and it's now hid to those who don't believe their Bibles - who, if they really want to go to Heaven, must forget about those things given to Israel, ONLY, and focus on those things given to us Gentiles, ONLY.

A short list of things given to Israel, only, or were about Israel, only, that were never, ever given to, or were ever about us Gentiles today. None of these things are found in Paul's 7 after Acts epistles.
---the Lord's prayer
---the Lord's supper,
---Christ's gospel of the Kingdom
---the Great Commission
---the churches in the Gospels and Acts (we have a new church in Eph and Col),
---the New Covenant,
---the sermon on the mount,
---Commanded to keep any part of the Law
---water baptism,
---the Gifts of the Spirit,
---the idea that we are the seed of Abraham,
---the New Jerusalem,
---the idea that we are now part of Israel,
---the idea that Israel are God's chosen people at the present time (Israel was actually set aside in about 63AD),
---that OT prophecy is being fulfilled today
---that the present nation of Israel was the fulfillment of prophecy,
---and, of course, THE ALMIGHTY RAPTURE, the favorite LIE of Satan to keep you in Acts, so you'll never make it to where he aspired to go, but was never allowed to, God's Highest Heaven, Heavenly Places, the Heaven of Heavens, Far above all Heavens, the Holiest of All., GLORY !!!

And that list is only the tip of the iceberg

BEWARE!! If you want to spend eternity in the Heaven of Heavens, eliminate everything from your doctrine in the above list of things that are TO and ABOUT Israel, ONLY, and focus on the infinitely better things given ONLY to us Gentiles, as found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts books. Otherwise, you'll very likely be on the earth.
 
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Tony M

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I grew up in the Seventh-day Adventist church, so these claims and the Daniel 7:25 proof text are quite familiar to me. SDA's acknowledge that there are types/anti-types in scripture; there are numerous things in the Old Testament that point to Christ, yet I eel that they have overlooked the Sabbath day as a type of Christ. I am now under the belief that this "rest" was indeed a type of Christ. Jesus Himself said that we should come to Him for rest. For those who have placed their total trust in Christ for their salvation, this rest is something that we can enjoy seven days a week.

The Catholic Church has done much to supplant the role of the theocracy that national Israel had represented here on earth at one time. They have their priests, they still offer regular sacrifices, they count themselves as the exclusive assembly of God, etc. There attempt to establish a different holy day does not change the fact that Christ fulfilled/completed the law, psalms and prophets. Are we to esteem one above another? If the answer is yes then why do we not have the right to pass judgment on another because of it?

As for Daniel 9:25? The passage says "he shall think to make changes in time AND law. This does not say "times OF the law". When you read Daniel 2:21, it states that "times" were actually the establishing and removing of kings. The whole book of Daniel is concerning kings and kingdoms and how God is in ultimate control of these things. I believe that it wold be wise to allow scripture to interpret scripture when it comes to Daniel 7:25. The Decalogue was not in context in chapter 7, whereas the establishing and removing of kings is.
 
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