Which religion is really true and which isn't?

TokiEl

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No I am not saying Jesus implied he was an Angel. I was simply illustrating that because one is not of this world does not mean they are God. It's a very basic logical deduction. But then again logical deduction is rarely a tool used by Trinitarians in debating the doctrine.
Logical deduction dictates that Jesus is either God or an angel... since he is from the world above.
 

Todd

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Logical deduction dictates that Jesus is either God or an angel... since he is from the world above.
Or that he is the Messiah (a man sent directly from God) as prophesied and foretold in the Old Testament.
 
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We have been around this circle before, but just to recap my thoughts, the idea of the Trintiy is not taught explicitly anywhere in Scripture. It can be mildly inferred by some questionable interpretation of a few select scriptures. But the underlining and dominant thread in scripture is that God is one, not three. No scripture can be found describing God with the number 3. Why the need to accept the obscure questionable intrepretation of a few select scripture references to contradict the overwhelmingly dominant and explicit statment of scripture that God is one?

The words of Jesus himself make the strong case that Jesus did not consider himself God. The fact is the doctrine of the Trinity is a construct of the Church and it was never taught explicitily by Jesus, any prophet in the Bible or any of the Apostles.

If the trinity doctrine in and of itself was logical and rational, then I could possibly accept that inference of it in scripture was enough to comtemplate it as truth. However to accept such an irrational and illogical premise as truth without direct, explicit teaching of the doctrine in scripture is not wise, especially when there are more logical and rational ways to interpret the scriptures.
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.......1 John 5:7 KJB
 

TokiEl

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The "logos" is the expression and intent of God. In Genesis the "logos" became creation, i.e. this world and all who inhabit it both man and animal and plants.
Where in Genesis did the "logos" become creation ?

God spoke (His Word/Logos) creation into being and God accomplish everything with His Spirit.

God Word Spirit.

These are like the three leaf clover... call it trinity or united or whatever... they are three in one.
 

Allegra

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Then please clarify your statement. Do you believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all the same being or do you believe they are three unique persons that compromise the Godhead? Because there is a difference and I'm trying to understand which one you subscribe to.
I believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I believe in the Triune God. I believe Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in essence, Divine God, and they work in perfect union.
When I pray, I pray to the Father through the Son and in the Holy Spirit according to Ephesians 2:18.

This sum up my belief from Tertullian (160-215), an African apologist and theologian.

”We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).
Anyhow it’s 3:20 am I should really go to sleep. Ttyl.
 
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An impostor claiming something that can belong to no man.
It is the Spirit Who is Christ. The human body that Christ used last time was called Jesus (which is all explained in the book). God says in Revelation that only Christ was found worthy to unlock the Scriptures:

Revelation
5:1 And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a Book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals (seven in God's "Code" means ALL or COMPLETELY).
5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the Book, and to loose the seals thereof?
5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the Book, neither to look thereon.
5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the Book, neither to look thereon.
5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Source of David, hath prevailed to open the Book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the Throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
5:7 And he came and took the Book out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the Throne.
5:8 And when he had taken the Book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of holy people (those who really trust God).
5:9 And they sung a New Song (Isa 42:10), saying, Thou art worthy to take the Book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and channels: and we shall reign on the earth.

10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the Prophets.
10:8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spoke unto me again, and said, Go [and] take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the "sea" and upon the "earth".
10:9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take [it], and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth as sweet as honey.
10:10 And I took the little book (white stone ch. 2:17) out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten (digested) it, my belly was bitter.
10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

It says in Genesis that the Second Coming would be from the tribe of Joseph (who today are the English) not from Judah:

Christ's Second Coming
 
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Todd

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“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.......1 John 5:7 KJB
“The textual evidence is against 1 John 5:7,” explains Dr. Neil Lightfoot, a New Testament professor. “Of all the Greek manuscripts, only two contain it. These two manuscripts are of very late dates, one from the fourteenth or fifteenth century and the other from the sixteenth century. Two other manuscripts have this verse written in the margin. All four manuscripts show that this verse was apparently translated from a late form of the Latin Vulgate” ( How We Got the Bible, 2003, pp. 100-101).

The Expositor’s Bible Commentary also dismisses the King James and New King James Versions’ additions in 1 John 5:7-8 as “obviously a late gloss with no merit” (Glenn Barker, Vol. 12, 1981, p. 353).

Peake’s Commentary on the Bible is very incisive in its comments as well: “The famous interpolation after ‘three witnesses’ is not printed in RSV and rightly [so] .  .  . No respectable Greek [manuscript] contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th century Latin text, it entered the Vulgate [the 5th-century Latin version, which became the common medieval translation] and finally NT[New Testament] of Erasmus [who produced newly collated Greek texts and a new Latin version in the 16th century]” (p. 1038).

The Big Book of Bible Difficulties tells us: “This verse has virtually no support among the early Greek manuscripts . . . Its appearance in late Greek manuscripts is based on the fact that Erasmus was placed under ecclesiastical pressure to include it in his Greek NT of 1522, having omitted it in his two earlier editions of 1516 and 1519 because he could not find any Greek manuscripts which contained it” (Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe, 2008, pp. 540-541).

Theology professors Anthony and Richard Hanson, in their book ReasonableBelief: A Survey of the Christian Faith, explain the unwarranted addition to the text this way: “It was added by some enterprising person or persons in the ancient Church who felt that the New Testament was sadly deficient in direct witness to the kind of doctrine of the Trinity which he favoured and who determined to remedy that defect … It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament” (1980, p. 171).
 

Todd

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I believe in the Triune God. I believe Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in essence, Divine God, and they work in perfect union.
Thank you for the clarification. Does this mean you retract your previous statement were you said Father, Son and Sprit are the same being? "Same essence" and "same being" are two different things. That is the reason I questioned your understanding of the Trinity doctrine. Trintiy doctrine clearly distinquishes seperate persons or beings where as your earlier statement implied you believed they were all the same being.

Anyhow it’s 3:20 am I should really go to sleep. Ttyl.
I hope you have gone to bed by now and that I will see your reply tomorrow!
 
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“The textual evidence is against 1 John 5:7,” explains Dr. Neil Lightfoot, a New Testament professor. “Of all the Greek manuscripts, only two contain it. These two manuscripts are of very late dates, one from the fourteenth or fifteenth century and the other from the sixteenth century. Two other manuscripts have this verse written in the margin. All four manuscripts show that this verse was apparently translated from a late form of the Latin Vulgate” ( How We Got the Bible, 2003, pp. 100-101).

The Expositor’s Bible Commentary also dismisses the King James and New King James Versions’ additions in 1 John 5:7-8 as “obviously a late gloss with no merit” (Glenn Barker, Vol. 12, 1981, p. 353).

Peake’s Commentary on the Bible is very incisive in its comments as well: “The famous interpolation after ‘three witnesses’ is not printed in RSV and rightly [so] .  .  . No respectable Greek [manuscript] contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th century Latin text, it entered the Vulgate [the 5th-century Latin version, which became the common medieval translation] and finally NT[New Testament] of Erasmus [who produced newly collated Greek texts and a new Latin version in the 16th century]” (p. 1038).

The Big Book of Bible Difficulties tells us: “This verse has virtually no support among the early Greek manuscripts . . . Its appearance in late Greek manuscripts is based on the fact that Erasmus was placed under ecclesiastical pressure to include it in his Greek NT of 1522, having omitted it in his two earlier editions of 1516 and 1519 because he could not find any Greek manuscripts which contained it” (Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe, 2008, pp. 540-541).

Theology professors Anthony and Richard Hanson, in their book ReasonableBelief: A Survey of the Christian Faith, explain the unwarranted addition to the text this way: “It was added by some enterprising person or persons in the ancient Church who felt that the New Testament was sadly deficient in direct witness to the kind of doctrine of the Trinity which he favoured and who determined to remedy that defect … It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament” (1980, p. 171).
You really should stop looking to words of men, and ESPECIALLY professors to validate the Word of God. they are most often the ones who deceive people the most.

MANY other verses & passages support the triune nature of God:

Matthew 28:19
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”


Like I said before........you simply do NOT believe God's Word.
 

Todd

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You really should stop looking to words of men, and ESPECIALLY professors to validate the Word of God. they are most often the ones who deceive people the most.

MANY other verses & passages support the triune nature of God:

Matthew 28:19
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”


Like I said before........you simply do NOT believe God's Word.
Thanks for reminding me again Claire....I really was sitting here wondering "Does Claire think I believe the Word of God?" LOL!

Anyways, I fail to see how Matthew 28:19 proves the Trinity. Matthew 28:19 is instruction on Baptism, not a teaching about the nature of God. There is no mention in the verse about equality or three persons in one being.
 

TokiEl

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And what is the basis for your assertion other than your own opinion?
Jesus is from the world above... so he must be God or an angel.

You don't think he is God... so you are left with only one logical option... although you don't have the logic to understand this.
 

Todd

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Jesus is from the world above... so he must be God or an angel.

You don't think he is God... so you are left with only one logical option... although you don't have the logic to understand this.
You have provided no basis for your assertion that only an angel or God can come from the world above. Until you provide this you are simply spouting your opinion.
 

TokiEl

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You have provided no basis for your assertion that only an angel or God can come from the world above. Until you provide this you are simply spouting your opinion.
From the world above we got God and angels and... flying spaghetti monsters ?
 

Todd

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From the world above we got God and angels and... flying spaghetti monsters ?
No we have God, angels and the Messiah, just as the bible says. The messiah was a man sent from God. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
 

Allegra

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Thank you for the clarification. Does this mean you retract your previous statement were you said Father, Son and Sprit are the same being? "Same essence" and "same being" are two different things. That is the reason I questioned your understanding of the Trinity doctrine. Trintiy doctrine clearly distinquishes seperate persons or beings where as your earlier statement implied you believed they were all the same being.


I hope you have gone to bed by now and that I will see your reply tomorrow!
*facepalm*

my bad.

I misunderstand the word being. 3 persons in 1 essence. sometimes I get confused with some english word.

I only ended up only sleep 4 hours. Sleepy so I'll just take from this articleand added more scriptures.

Why I believe in Trinity, because the bible say God is One and yet it's also telling us that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are GOD. There is nothing confusing at all! Modalism or Oneness is more confusing to me tbh because A God's son is God in essence too just like a human's son is human in essence. A lion's son is lion in essence. Jesus can't be not God and on this fact, He says He and Father are one. That's it, there is no other explanation. He is called "O God" in Hebrews. He is God in human flesh too, He is called The Son of Man and also called The Son of God.

In Hebrews things are made clearer for me.

About the Father, (Father is just obvious)
"But to which of the angels has He ever said, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet'?" (Hebrews 1:13).

And again later on in the book:

"but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified," (Hebrews 10:12-14).

These passages are applying Psalm 110:1

"The LORD says to my Lord: Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
The all-caps "LORD" in this verse is the name YHWH. Such uses clearly show that it was YHWH who said these things to our Lord, the Son. The Book of Hebrews also applies a later verse in the same Psalm:

"The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, 'You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek,'” (Psalm 110:4, see Hebrews 5:6, 7:17).

The implication is the same. The Son received this promise from YHWH who sent Him. The Father is YHWH.

The Son
The Son is also identified both as God and specifically as YHWH through the Old Testament passages applied to Him. For example, the author writes:

"But of the Son He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions,' And, 'You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, and like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end,” (Hebrew 1:8-12).

The phrase "your throne, O God," is a direct address to the Son. Even more significantly, the author says that the verse "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands..." is talking about the Son. While the Greek here simply contains the word "kurios" or "Lord/Master," the quote is from Psalm 102, and "the LORD" in this passage is unquestionably YHWH. Though the author of the Book of Hebrews is quoting from the Septuagint (the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures), in the original Hebrew the name YHWH is used throughout the Psalm rather than the title "Lord." This Psalm about YHWH as creator is claimed here to be about the Son. The Son, therefore, is YHWH.

The Son, however, is clearly distinguished from the Father by phrases like "God, your God" and by the other passages cited above. The Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son, yet both are the one and only YHWH. Indeed, the book opens by testifying that the Son created the world and upholds all things by His power:

"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," (Hebrews 1:1-3).

Interestingly, the Son is the creator and sustainer of all things, which can only be said of God, but the Son is also sent by God. We have both a unity and a distinction. Similarly, the author later writes:

"Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. 'Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,' bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory," (Hebrews 3:3-6).

The difference between Jesus and Moses as not merely one of degree. Jesus is greater than Moses as the one who built the house is greater than the house. God is the builder; we are the house. Moses is high and lofty, but he is still in the category of "the house." He is a thing that was made. Jesus is not in that category. The Son is in the category of the maker, not in the category of things made. The Son is Creator, not creation. The Son is God, but is also in eternal fellowship with God. In His very being, He is what God is and is not a part of what God made, yet the Son does not exhaust all that God is. The Son and His Father are distinct persons but are both the one true God, YHWH.

The Spirit
Finally, the Spirit also speaks as YHWH. For example, the author writes:

"Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, 'Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, As in the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tried Me by testing Me, And saw My works for forty years. Therefore I was angry with this generation, And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, And they did not know My ways’; As I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’” (Hebrews 3:7-11).

Psalm 95:6-11
6 Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the Lord our Maker; 7 for he is our God
and we are the people of his pasture, the flock under his care.
Today, if only you would hear his voice, 8 “Do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah, as you did that day at Massah in the wilderness, 9 where your ancestors tested me; they tried me, though they had seen what I did. 10 For forty years I was angry with that generation; I said, ‘They are a people whose hearts go astray, and they have not known my ways.’ 11 So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”

The Book of Hebrews takes the very words of YHWH and quotes them by saying, "The Holy Spirit says..." He doesn't say that God says through the Holy Spirit. He does not claim that the Lord utilized the means of His Spirit to reveal these words. He says that the Holy Spirit said those words which are plainly the words of YHWH. This occurs again later in the book:

"And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, 'This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, And on their mind I will write them,' He then says, "and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more,'” (Hebrews 10:15-16).

Jeremiah 31:33 But at his is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Such passages not only equate the Holy Spirit with YHWH, but they do so in a way which shows the Holy Spirit as personal and interactive. The Holy Spirit is not an abstract aspect of YHWH's nature. He speaks, testifies, displays anger and wrath, makes covenants with people, and forgives sins. The Holy Spirit is a divine person. He is YHWH. Yet, again, He is not the Father or the Son. Each of the divine persons is distinct from and interacts with the others, as we elsewhere read:

"How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? " (Hebrews 9:14).

Here we see the beautiful interaction of Father, Son, and Spirit in the divine work of redemption. YHWH, the one true God, is a Trinity, and His gospel is a Trinitarian message. One God in three persons carrying out the redemption of sinners to His own eternal glory.

In Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord" The original Hebrew word in this scripture for one is ECHAD which means plural unity.



I found it inevitable that discussions like this become a christian debate, that's why this will be my last reply discussing about Trinity here. New Christians will be overwhelmed and might get turn off by this, so if you are new to the faith, take your time and learn slowly, knowing that Christianity have a lot of denominations, even some are cult. So always beware of false prophets and ask Holy Spirit for discernment.
So don't focus on denominations because no denomination is perfect, instead focus on Christ. Denominations (the non-cult ones lol) create clusters of unity which is necessary for overall unity in the body. Respect each other’s differences, and still have a fundamental unity because God doesn't like strife.

For Mr. Todd, I just want to give him my beliefs and why I belief based on the scriptures. There are many more that I've learned. But for now, this is enough.

At last, have a great day everyone.
 
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