- Apr 16, 2017
How did God have a son before Jesus was born on Earth? Who was Jesus' mother in Heaven? I know you have been so indoctrinated with the trinity and pre-existance concepts that you are blind to how absurd the notion that Jesus was God's son before he was born is.Before Jesus was born on earth, He is still the Son of God
No, I don't know the trinity because it is not in the Bible.... and God who is also the Word. Pretty much the God who was talking to prophets and whatnot with Father and Holy Spirit, you know the Trinity.
if you knew anything about the languages the Bible was written in, you would understand that the word translated "GOD" in most English Bible does not always refer to the one true God, creator of the earth. "god" was also used to decribe men with a range of authorities, including great people, rulers and people acting with God’s authority. This fact is clearly seen when Jesus answered the Jews who accused him of claiming to be God in John 10:Remember that Holy Spirit also made covenant, etc. The Trinity who always work in perfect unity and Jesus is the God of Psalms.
Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."
- Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Here Jesus clearly convenes the notion I am presenting here, that the word "god" in scripture does not always refer to the one true God. This is also a strange reply by Jesus, if he truly was the one true God. He is essentially denying the accusation that the Jews made against him that he was claiming to be the one True God.
Yes he was, because that is what the word "logos" means. John chapter one clearly says that Jesus was the logos...the thought, idea, plan, reason and will of God. But you can't see that because you have been indoctrinated by the teachings of man. Your bias keeps you from objectively looking at the actual meaning of the words in the original manuscripts and you keep trying to make sense from your inadequate English translation.He wasn't a thought, idea, plan, reason, wisdom and will of God.
Jesus was given a throne after he completed his mission on earth as the Messiah.He is God. If He was just a Word, a thought, idea, plan, why He has a throne? Like did he even need one?
Because He is always been the Son of God, that's what making Jesus' sacrifice to us a HUGE deal and very, idk how to say this, the greatest sacrifice ever, because Father the Almighty sent Jesus Christ His only begotten Son who created us, came down to this earth as a sacrifice for us.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
If Jesus was already God, why would God have to raise him up? Why would God have to "make" him Lord and Christ. You realize that the terms "Lord" and "Christ" are not synonyms of "GOD" right?
Jesus was not always the SON of God. He didn't become the son of God until he was born. Are you a daughter of God? Where you a daughter of God before you were born again? Jesus is our pattern and example of the perfect human being. If you weren't a daughter of God before you became born again, how is that Jesus was the son of God before he was born?
I have never denied that Jesus was not sent from God. He was the only human being who ever had a perfect and complete understanding of God the Father.You believe that Jesus is the Word of God, the Word manifested Himself so you believe in Jesus' Word right? Remember Jesus Himself said "No one ever sees Father other than the One who is from God."
So you are claiming that the God of Israel was really Jesus and not God the Father? That's quite a stretch to answer the supposed contradiction between the NT saying no man has seen the Father and Moses supposedly seeing God in the OT. Instead why don't you look at Exodus 33 for the real explanation for this supposed contradiction. It will explain to you that Moses did not truly see the face of God. He had a close relationship with God the Father, but he did not see him face to face and did not have the complete and perfect understanding of God that Jesus the Messiah did.John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. (more here John 5:37)
1 Tim 6:16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
Exodus 24:9-11 Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.
And also in Numbers 12:6-8 And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”
So if no one ever has ever seen THE FATHER then who in the world and heaven, the GOD that the people and Moses saw? Preincarnate Christ. Or if you don't agree then I would like to know and hear from you.
17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
I am not comparing you and me to God. I am comparing you and me to the second Adam. Jesus is the second Adam, the prefect prototype of what mankind was orginally intended to be. Yes I have a human father, but now that I have been born again, I now have God the Father, and the bible says Jesus is my friend and brother. The bible encourages us to become like Jesus, because he is the perfect example of what God wants all of us to be.Why would you compare me (and us) to a God? My birth and His birth are completely different. I have human father, His Father is God. My existence and His existence are different and can not be compared. I have beginning, He doesn't. He may be full flesh on earth but He is God in flesh and we call Him, Immanuel. His Father exalts Him because He is His own Son and sacrifices Himself for us.
I'm trying to address all of your points here, but I am not even sure what your point is here. So I'll leave it for now.He isn't only Word but He is God and the creator who created human according to His own image. (I already address this in previous about Jesus who is called the builder/creator)
The reason why Jesus is being called a builder and creator because He works together in UNITY with the Father. If Father is the creator and the Spirit of God was hovering over the water, so what about Jesus?
"But of the Son He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions,' And, 'You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, and like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end,” (Hebrew 1:8-12).
Please note "the works of Your hands."
Yes these quotes mention Father God, the son of God, Jesus the Christ, and the Holy Spirit, but none of them teach the doctrine of the Trintiy or claim equality of the three.The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:
Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priestJesusChrist, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).
Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).
Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christthe only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)
Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)
Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).
Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.
"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).
"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)
"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).
If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist?
No it is not. It has already been clearly shown to you that the Trinity was a Pagan concept that was adopted by early Christianity and has little to no basis in the Bible.The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine, and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.
Christianity wasn't yet illegal when Peter, James and John were spreading the gospel in Jerusalem, yet none of them taught the Trinity. Even the rebel Apostle Paul never explicitly taught the Trintiy, despite how much trinitarians twist and manipulate his words to find implication of a Trinity.Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is that Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.
To me, the work and sacrifice of Jesus, is so much greater when one realizes he was not God himself. How much greater is the sacrifice that a human (granted a very special human) gave his life and had to trust in God to raise him up, then God just "pretending" top be a human, knowing he could save himself all along. When looked at honestly and objectively the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross is actually cheapened by claiming he was actually God and not a human being. So even if you disagree with my theology, plese don't insult me by saying that I'm implying Jesus "aint all that". My appreciation, adoration, respect, and worship of Jesus increased greatly when I rejected the false doctrine of the Trintiy. And yes I said "worship" of Jesus, even though he isn't God. The notion that only God is to be worshipped is another false myth of Christianity, because of a lack of understanding what the bilbical word worhsip really means. But that's a different discussion.Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined.
The early church believed in the Trinity as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity as well as other doctrines that came under fire.
Sorry but I have to address this for people to read and weigh it themselves. It hurts me when people say Jesus is not God or anything that lowkey implies Jesus aint all that.
And vice versa...just because a belief is mainstream doesn't mean it is the Truth.Another thing, just because Trinity is mainstream doesn't mean it's not the Truth. It means that God always works and wants as many people as possible to be saved because we have to worship in Spirit and Truth.