Which religion is really true and which isn't?

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@Allegra, for the record I do not subscribe to Modalism.
Anytime, Todd....it’s a tough job but somebody’s gotta do it! ;)

Yes, it’s a baptism instruction verse, but why do you suppose we are told to baptize in the name of the Father, Son & Holy Ghost?
Because we are batptized into the family of God (the Father) becoming sons of God, through the work of Jesus on the Cross (our brother and perfect example) and given the promise of God's spirit indwelling in us.
 





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@TokiEl
Do you believe you are indwelled by the Spirit of God? Do you believe you are lead by the Spriit of God? If so then when you speak under the influence of the Spirit of God, you become the expression of God's wisdom , reason and his mind (i.e. the logos of God)? Does that mean TokiEl is God? of course not!

The difference between Jesus and the rest of us, is that Jesus was perfect and 100% submitted to the Spirit of God the Father and never spoke anything out of his own will. Whereas we are still in a process of salvation and being delivered from the power of sin and our own will, that each one of us still battles with everyday. Ultimately our goal should be to become like Jesus...a man fully submitted to the Spirit of God indwelling in him so we too can become an expression of the Wisdom, reason and mind of God. When this occurs we all effectively can become the logos (expression) of God.

If you knew anything about Greek grammar, you would understand the passage in John that says The Word was God and that Jesus is the Word, you would understand that it is the same implication of expression and does not mean that Jesus is literally God. Jesus is our brother and perfect example of what God wants all of us to become. Unless God the Father wants us all to be God, then Jesus cannot be God and at the same time be our prefect example. Jesus being God contradicts his purpose in being our brotherly example of the perfect son of God.
 





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@TokiEl
Do you believe you are indwelled by the Spirit of God? Do you believe you are lead by the Spriit of God? If so then when you speak under the influence of the Spirit of God, you become the expression of God's wisdom , reason and his mind (i.e. the logos of God)? Does that mean TokiEl is God? of course not!
You try to make Jesus just a man... but this is biblical impossible.

You twist turn wiggle and weasel the Scriptures like a slithering snake to try and demote Jesus of divinity... just like muslims or gnostics do.

You truly need to repent !
 





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You try to make Jesus just a man... but this is biblical impossible.

You twist turn wiggle and weasel the Scriptures like a slithering snake to try and demote Jesus of divinity... just like muslims or gnostics do.

You truly need to repent !
Accusations without basis mean nothing. I believe Jesus is exactly what the Bible describes him as.....the messiah, the Christ, the lamb of God, the son of man, the second Adam and yes the Son of God.

The first man Adam became a living being" the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven

Are you of heaven TokiEl? Have you become a life giving spirit and a son of God or are you only a natural man of the dust of the earth?
 





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The Word was with God and the Word was God.

So when Jesus is the Word then Jesus is God.

So who is this Father whom Jesus often spoke about ? God !

Jesus is the Word and the Father is God... and since the Word is God... Jesus is God as well.

Jesus is God and the Father is God and we know from elsewhere in the bible that the Holy spirit is also God.


Three distinct divine beings that make up one Godhead.

But this is a case where the clay is trying to understand the potter... it's an exercise in futility.

We ought to be humble enough and admit that we don't comprehend the full nature of the Creator our Maker.
All the more reason to reject the Trinity Doctrine....man's futile attempt to explain the nature of God! LOL!
 





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Accusations without basis mean nothing. I believe Jesus is exactly what the Bible describes him as.....the messiah, the Christ, the lamb of God, the son of man, the second Adam and yes the Son of God.
Who was Jesus before he was born as a man on earth ?
 





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The Word was with God and the Word was God.

So when Jesus is the Word then Jesus is God.

So who is this Father whom Jesus often spoke about ? God !

Jesus is the Word and the Father is God... and since the Word is God... Jesus is God as well.

Jesus is God and the Father is God and we know from elsewhere in the bible that the Holy spirit is also God.


Three distinct divine beings that make up one Godhead.

But this is a case where the clay is trying to understand the potter... it's an exercise in futility.

We ought to be humble enough and admit that we don't comprehend the full nature of the Creator our Maker.
And yet a verse specifically says Jesus is the manifestation of God's word. If you could manifest your word, would it gain independence or only adhere to your will? Is your manifested word not you anymore, something separate but still you?

My word is my word and only does what I will. My word is me. Your word is you.

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...philosophys-influence-on-the-trinity-doctrine

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...he-surprising-origins-of-the-trinity-doctrine

I'm not a Trinitarian, I don't need the Trinity to understand God or his spirit or his word because it is all in the bible. I don't need vain philosophies crafted by men that weren't even Christian to explain for me who Christ was or his connection to God because it is in the bible. When I believed the Trinity and when I stopped believing the Trinity it did not ever add or detract from my faith.

I don't fully comprehend the nature of God but the bible and history tells me enough to know Jesus is the divine manifested word of God and that triune aspect isn't taught but foolishly inferred and erroneously taught for no specific purpose whatsoever. I wasn't even aware of a trinity and never got that impression until a church tried to hammer home this point while omitting that it became false doctrine 300+ years later. It was able to proliferate because most couldn't read and it alternate truthful telling were regarded as heresy by the Catholic church. We can use history and Scripture to appropriate prophecy but we generally aren't allowed to use history and Scripture to be truthful that the Trinity isn't Christian and was established by pagans and novices who weren't concerned with the truth but with control.
 





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And yet a verse specifically says Jesus is the manifestation of God's word. If you could manifest your word, would it gain independence or only adhere to your will? Is your manifested word not you anymore, something separate but still you?
Jesus certainly acknowledged the Father as greater than him... and that was probably not just false humility.

But my point is that Jesus who existed in the beginning as the Word which spoke creation into being is very much divine himself.

Jesus is God and the Father is God and the Holy spirit is God.

Exactly what is the nature and relationship between these three beings... is like the clay trying to explain the potter.

It's absolutely futile !
 





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Who was Jesus before he was born as a man on earth ?
Jesus was a thought, an idea, and a plan in the mind, reason, wisdom and will of God. Who were you before you were born on Earth?
 





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Jesus was thought, an idea, and a plan in the mind, reason, wisdom and will of God. Who were you before you were born on Earth?
Me ? I can't remember shite... i was aware of eating one day and soiling my diapers at the same time... even think i giggled.

Not like Jesus at all who remembered very well who he was before being born on earth.
 





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What does your gut tell you? There is nothing that anyone can say to make the metaphysical world make sense to you.

You have to open the doors and find out for yourself. I personally believe in jesus Christ, but I had to listen to his call and answer myself.

I hope you find your way to your truth my friend
 





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Please forgive me, I was not trying to imply you were not smart. Sometimes sarcasm is the easist and most efficient way to point out the absurdity or illogical/irrational nature of a concept. In this case the irrational concept of the man made Trinity doctrine.

I.e. if God is really three in one, and all three have a head, then the "Christian" God is a three headed God. Sounds kind of silly when put that way doesn't it?
Yes, that kind of sounds creepy.
 





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Because we are batptized into the family of God (the Father) becoming sons of God, through the work of Jesus on the Cross (our brother and perfect example) and given the promise of God's spirit indwelling in us.
After further investigation I recant this explanation. Apparently the formula for baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not in the orginal text and was added at a latter time

The Catholic Encyclopedia II (Page 263)
The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.”

Britannica Encyclopedia 11th Edition, Vol 3 (Page 82, and Pages 365-366)
“Everywhere in the oldest sources it states that baptism took place in the name of Jesus Christ.”- Thebaptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, & Holy Ghost by the Catholic Church in the second century.”

Canney Encylopedia of Religion (Page 53)
“The early church always baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus until development of the Trinity doctrine in the 2nd century.”

Matthew 28:18-19
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in my name.”
 





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Jesus was a thought, an idea, and a plan in the mind, reason, wisdom and will of God.
Before Jesus was born on earth, He is still the Son of God... and God who is also the Word. Pretty much the God who was talking to prophets and whatnot with Father and Holy Spirit, you know the Trinity. Remember that Holy Spirit also made covenant, etc. The Trinity who always work in perfect unity and Jesus is the God of Psalms.
  • Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."
Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."

He wasn't a thought, idea, plan, reason, wisdom and will of God. He is God. If He was just a Word, a thought, idea, plan, why He has a throne? Like did he even need one?
Because He is always been the Son of God, that's what making Jesus' sacrifice to us a HUGE deal and very, idk how to say this, the greatest sacrifice ever, because Father the Almighty sent Jesus Christ His only begotten Son who created us, came down to this earth as a sacrifice for us.

You believe that Jesus is the Word of God, the Word manifested Himself so you believe in Jesus' Word right? Remember Jesus Himself said "No one ever sees Father other than the One who is from God."

John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. (more here John 5:37)
1 Tim 6:16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
Exodus 24:9-11 Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.

And also in Numbers 12:6-8 And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

So if no one ever has ever seen THE FATHER then who in the world and heaven, the GOD that the people and Moses saw? Preincarnate Christ. Or if you don't agree then I would like to know and hear from you.

Who were you before you were born on Earth?
Why would you compare me (and us) to a God? My birth and His birth are completely different. I have human father, His Father is God. My existence and His existence are different and can not be compared. I have beginning, He doesn't. He may be full flesh on earth but He is God in flesh and we call Him, Immanuel. His Father exalts Him because He is His own Son and sacrifices Himself for us.


He isn't only Word but He is God and the creator who created human according to His own image. (I already address this in previous about Jesus who is called the builder/creator)
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/t...y-true-and-which-isnt.5692/page-6#post-207384

The reason why Jesus is being called a builder and creator because He works together in UNITY with the Father. If Father is the creator and the Spirit of God was hovering over the water, so what about Jesus?

"But of the Son He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions,' And, 'You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, and like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end,” (Hebrew 1:8-12).

Please note "the works of Your hands."

HANDS.

. I wasn't even aware of a trinity and never got that impression until a church tried to hammer home this point while omitting that it became false doctrine 300+ years later.
The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priestJesusChrist, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christthe only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

Conclusion
If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine, and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is that Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.

Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined.

The early church believed in the Trinity as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity as well as other doctrines that came under fire.

Sorry but I have to address this for people to read and weigh it themselves. It hurts me when people say Jesus is not God or anything that lowkey implies Jesus aint all that.

Another thing, just because Trinity is mainstream doesn't mean it's not the Truth. It means that God always works and wants as many people as possible to be saved because we have to worship in Spirit and Truth.

Always remember, na'a'seh.
 





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Before Jesus was born on earth, He is still the Son of God... and God who is also the Word. Pretty much the God who was talking to prophets and whatnot with Father and Holy Spirit, you know the Trinity. Remember that Holy Spirit also made covenant, etc. The Trinity who always work in perfect unity and Jesus is the God of Psalms.
  • Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom."
Quoted from Psalm 45:6, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom."

He wasn't a thought, idea, plan, reason, wisdom and will of God. He is God. If He was just a Word, a thought, idea, plan, why He has a throne? Like did he even need one?
Because He is always been the Son of God, that's what making Jesus' sacrifice to us a HUGE deal and very, idk how to say this, the greatest sacrifice ever, because Father the Almighty sent Jesus Christ His only begotten Son who created us, came down to this earth as a sacrifice for us.

You believe that Jesus is the Word of God, the Word manifested Himself so you believe in Jesus' Word right? Remember Jesus Himself said "No one ever sees Father other than the One who is from God."

John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. (more here John 5:37)
1 Tim 6:16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.
Exodus 24:9-11 Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.

And also in Numbers 12:6-8 And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so with my servant Moses. He is faithful in all my house. With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

So if no one ever has ever seen THE FATHER then who in the world and heaven, the GOD that the people and Moses saw? Preincarnate Christ. Or if you don't agree then I would like to know and hear from you.


Why would you compare me (and us) to a God? My birth and His birth are completely different. I have human father, His Father is God. My existence and His existence are different and can not be compared. I have beginning, He doesn't. He may be full flesh on earth but He is God in flesh and we call Him, Immanuel. His Father exalts Him because He is His own Son and sacrifices Himself for us.


He isn't only Word but He is God and the creator who created human according to His own image. (I already address this in previous about Jesus who is called the builder/creator)
https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/t...y-true-and-which-isnt.5692/page-6#post-207384

The reason why Jesus is being called a builder and creator because He works together in UNITY with the Father. If Father is the creator and the Spirit of God was hovering over the water, so what about Jesus?

"But of the Son He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions,' And, 'You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, and like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end,” (Hebrew 1:8-12).

Please note "the works of Your hands."

HANDS.



The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priestJesusChrist, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christthe only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

Conclusion
If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine, and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is that Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.

Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined.

The early church believed in the Trinity as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity as well as other doctrines that came under fire.

Sorry but I have to address this for people to read and weigh it themselves. It hurts me when people say Jesus is not God or anything that lowkey implies Jesus aint all that.

Another thing, just because Trinity is mainstream doesn't mean it's not the Truth. It means that God always works and wants as many people as possible to be saved because we have to worship in Spirit and Truth.

Always remember, na'a'seh.
I'm not claiming that Jesus isn't divine I'm saying the concept of a trinity, a triune nature, because only one of your quotes actually says Trinity, was not an inherently Christian teaching.
Suddenly saying he is the word of God manifested in the flesh along with all things other titles and everything he has done but denying a doctrine that isn't inherently Christian is low-key implying he is less than?

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...philosophys-influence-on-the-trinity-doctrine

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...he-surprising-origins-of-the-trinity-doctrine
 





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I'm not claiming that Jesus isn't divine I'm saying the concept of a trinity, a triune nature, because only one of your quotes actually says Trinity, was not an inherently Christian teaching.
Suddenly saying he is the word of God manifested in the flesh along with all things other titles and everything he has done but denying a doctrine that isn't inherently Christian is low-key implying he is less than?

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...philosophys-influence-on-the-trinity-doctrine

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...he-surprising-origins-of-the-trinity-doctrine
Sorry, can’t trust your source.

Question: "What is the United Church of God?"

Answer: The United Church of God (UCG), based in Ohio, United States, holds to doctrines that conflict with biblical Christianity. The United Church of God is faithful to the doctrines of the late Herbert W. Armstrong, the charismatic and controlling leader of the Worldwide Church of God.

Armstrong believed that he was an end times apostle proclaiming the soon-coming “Kingdom of God.” The Worldwide Church of God modified its teaching after Armstrong’s death, prompting members faithful to Armstrongism to split off and form their own organizations. The United Church of God, founded in 1995, is one of those offshoots. The UCG is more moderate than original Armstrongism, having jettisoned some of the more eccentric teachings such as the bans on celebrating birthdays and wearing makeup.

The United Church of God teaches that only groups similar to their own comprise the true church and that all other “churches” are satanic counterfeits. Members of the UCG are seen as a select group specially chosen by God to become “first-fruits”—a future group of “god-beings” and “kings and priests” in the earthly “Kingdom of God.” The sign of being part of God’s chosen people is Sabbath-keeping and obedience to parts of the Mosaic Law. Members must pay tithes and keep the seven annual festivals given to ancient Israel. They also observe Old Testament laws governing “unclean” food and refuse to participate in the military. The United Church of God and other groups with roots in Armstrongism will not celebrate Christmas because they believe the holiday is pagan in origin.

Other United Church of God beliefs that counter the Bible include a rejection of the Trinity (the Holy Spirit is the impersonal expression of God’s power), a false view of Christ (Jesus and God are two different “divine beings”), and a works-based salvation (water baptism and Law-keeping are required to be saved).

The false doctrine of the United Church of God and its ties to the cult of Armstrongism make the UCG an organization to be avoided.

www.gotquestions.org/amp/United-Church-of-God.html
 





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Sorry, can’t trust your source.

Question: "What is the United Church of God?"

Answer: The United Church of God (UCG), based in Ohio, United States, holds to doctrines that conflict with biblical Christianity. The United Church of God is faithful to the doctrines of the late Herbert W. Armstrong, the charismatic and controlling leader of the Worldwide Church of God.

Armstrong believed that he was an end times apostle proclaiming the soon-coming “Kingdom of God.” The Worldwide Church of God modified its teaching after Armstrong’s death, prompting members faithful to Armstrongism to split off and form their own organizations. The United Church of God, founded in 1995, is one of those offshoots. The UCG is more moderate than original Armstrongism, having jettisoned some of the more eccentric teachings such as the bans on celebrating birthdays and wearing makeup.

The United Church of God teaches that only groups similar to their own comprise the true church and that all other “churches” are satanic counterfeits. Members of the UCG are seen as a select group specially chosen by God to become “first-fruits”—a future group of “god-beings” and “kings and priests” in the earthly “Kingdom of God.” The sign of being part of God’s chosen people is Sabbath-keeping and obedience to parts of the Mosaic Law. Members must pay tithes and keep the seven annual festivals given to ancient Israel. They also observe Old Testament laws governing “unclean” food and refuse to participate in the military. The United Church of God and other groups with roots in Armstrongism will not celebrate Christmas because they believe the holiday is pagan in origin.

Other United Church of God beliefs that counter the Bible include a rejection of the Trinity (the Holy Spirit is the impersonal expression of God’s power), a false view of Christ (Jesus and God are two different “divine beings”), and a works-based salvation (water baptism and Law-keeping are required to be saved).

The false doctrine of the United Church of God and its ties to the cult of Armstrongism make the UCG an organization to be avoided.

www.gotquestions.org/amp/United-Church-of-God.html
I only trusted the source because of historical and textual references. Did you read the articles, did you check the references?

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/trinity-history.html#OldTes
 





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I only trusted the source because of historical and textual references. Did you read the articles, did you check the references?
I don’t trust a website who teaches false doctrines, and of course they will quote and link sources that support their false beliefs.

Logic and simple as that.

Trinity has always been the early church beliefs even before the Council of Nicaea.

I put bible verses, the Word of God, to support my beliefs. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are called God and God is only one. So our God is the Triune God.
 





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I don’t trust a website who teaches false doctrines, and of course they will quote and link sources that support their false beliefs.

Logic and simple as that.

Trinity has always been the early church beliefs even before the Council of Nicaea.

I put bible verses, the Word of God, to support my beliefs. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are called God and God is only one. So our God is the Triune God.
It has not always been an early church belief. I can name several bible believing creeds, pre 4th century, that never acknowledged a trinity. I also posted the history of the formation of the Trinity and it's influencers. All I'm really showing you is the history because it doesn't take Scripture to even discover the history of the Trinity.

I could say I don't trust your sources because they support false beliefs and use the very same argument against you. I'm not telling you to believe differently but most Christians have no historical basis and believe things that have been fed to them and have become traditional doctrine.

You would have never thought Trinity or triune reading the bible without any outside influence and no one else does without outside influence.
 





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It has not always been an early church belief. I can name several bible believing creeds, pre 4th century, that never acknowledged a trinity. I also posted the history of the formation of the Trinity and it's influencers. All I'm really showing you is the history because it doesn't take Scripture to even discover the history of the Trinity.

I could say I don't trust your sources because they support false beliefs and use the very same argument against you. I'm not telling you to believe differently but most Christians have no historical basis and believe things that have been fed to them and have become traditional doctrine.

You would have never thought Trinity or triune reading the bible without any outside influence and no one else does without outside influence.
That’s fine if you don’t trust my beliefs and sources. But I believe in what the bible says.

Also yes, I know Trinity through others whom by God’s grace were given the knowledge of Truth.

And yes I can see how they came up with the Trinity because it’s so obvious esp in Hebrews. 3 Persons are called God but not Triune?

We only have 1 God but

1. why Jesus said if you see me then you see the Father?

2. If Holy Spirit isn’t God why Peter says that Annanias lied to God? Why the New Testament authors keep calling Jesus, God? Like Hebrews says “And of the Son, He says, “Thy throne O God is forever and ever.”

3. If God is only one then why Jesus says in John 14:23 “ . . . If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him.”
Father and Jesus are dwelling together in us.
And you can easily find verses about Holy Spirit dwelling in us, like John 14:16-17. So Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit dwelling in us. God dwells in us.
If Jesus isn’t God then how He joins Father to dwell in us?

I wanna present this verse,
John 17:5, “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
This verse shows Jesus before His incarnation. He was in full of glory with Father before the world was. He was there before the world. A plan, a thought, an idea don’t have glory.

Now tell me, if God is one person, why are we called into fellowship with the Father and with his Son? If God is one person, why did he make the world through the Son? If God is one person, why did Jesus request the glory he had with the Father before the world was made?

The term of Trinity May comes from Greek philosophy but the bible implies and shows the works of a Triune God. Pretty sure none of the apostles, Paul and the authors of the rest of the bible are Greek!

I don’t care what the world philosophers say, but I look at the Bible.