You have provided no basis for your assertion that only an angel or God can come from the world above. Until you provide this you are simply spouting your opinion.Jesus is from the world above... so he must be God or an angel.
You don't think he is God... so you are left with only one logical option... although you don't have the logic to understand this.
*facepalm*Thank you for the clarification. Does this mean you retract your previous statement were you said Father, Son and Sprit are the same being? "Same essence" and "same being" are two different things. That is the reason I questioned your understanding of the Trinity doctrine. Trintiy doctrine clearly distinquishes seperate persons or beings where as your earlier statement implied you believed they were all the same being.
I hope you have gone to bed by now and that I will see your reply tomorrow!
Thanks @Allegra - very clearly put.*facepalm*
I misunderstand the word being. 3 persons in 1 essence. sometimes I get confused with some english word.
I only ended up only sleep 4 hours. Sleepy so I'll just take from this articleand added more scriptures.
Why I believe in Trinity, because the bible say God is One and yet it's also telling us that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are GOD. There is nothing confusing at all! Modalism or Oneness is more confusing to me tbh because A God's son is God in essence too just like a human's son is human in essence. A lion's son is lion in essence. Jesus can't be not God and on this fact, He says He and Father are one. That's it, there is no other explanation. He is called "O God" in Hebrews. He is God in human flesh too, He is called The Son of Man and also called The Son of God.
In Hebrews things are made clearer for me.
About the Father, (Father is just obvious)
"But to which of the angels has He ever said, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet'?" (Hebrews 1:13).
And again later on in the book:
"but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified," (Hebrews 10:12-14).
These passages are applying Psalm 110:1
"The LORD says to my Lord: Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
The all-caps "LORD" in this verse is the name YHWH. Such uses clearly show that it was YHWH who said these things to our Lord, the Son. The Book of Hebrews also applies a later verse in the same Psalm:
"The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, 'You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek,'” (Psalm 110:4, see Hebrews 5:6, 7:17).
The implication is the same. The Son received this promise from YHWH who sent Him. The Father is YHWH.
The Son is also identified both as God and specifically as YHWH through the Old Testament passages applied to Him. For example, the author writes:
"But of the Son He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions,' And, 'You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, and like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end,” (Hebrew 1:8-12).
The phrase "your throne, O God," is a direct address to the Son. Even more significantly, the author says that the verse "You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands..." is talking about the Son. While the Greek here simply contains the word "kurios" or "Lord/Master," the quote is from Psalm 102, and "the LORD" in this passage is unquestionably YHWH. Though the author of the Book of Hebrews is quoting from the Septuagint (the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures), in the original Hebrew the name YHWH is used throughout the Psalm rather than the title "Lord." This Psalm about YHWH as creator is claimed here to be about the Son. The Son, therefore, is YHWH.
The Son, however, is clearly distinguished from the Father by phrases like "God, your God" and by the other passages cited above. The Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son, yet both are the one and only YHWH. Indeed, the book opens by testifying that the Son created the world and upholds all things by His power:
"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," (Hebrews 1:1-3).
Interestingly, the Son is the creator and sustainer of all things, which can only be said of God, but the Son is also sent by God. We have both a unity and a distinction. Similarly, the author later writes:
"Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. 'Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,' bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory," (Hebrews 3:3-6).
The difference between Jesus and Moses as not merely one of degree. Jesus is greater than Moses as the one who built the house is greater than the house. God is the builder; we are the house. Moses is high and lofty, but he is still in the category of "the house." He is a thing that was made. Jesus is not in that category. The Son is in the category of the maker, not in the category of things made. The Son is Creator, not creation. The Son is God, but is also in eternal fellowship with God. In His very being, He is what God is and is not a part of what God made, yet the Son does not exhaust all that God is. The Son and His Father are distinct persons but are both the one true God, YHWH.
Finally, the Spirit also speaks as YHWH. For example, the author writes:
"Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, 'Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, As in the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tried Me by testing Me, And saw My works for forty years. Therefore I was angry with this generation, And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, And they did not know My ways’; As I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest,’” (Hebrews 3:7-11).
6 Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the Lord our Maker; 7 for he is our God
and we are the people of his pasture, the flock under his care.
Today, if only you would hear his voice, 8 “Do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah, as you did that day at Massah in the wilderness, 9 where your ancestors tested me; they tried me, though they had seen what I did. 10 For forty years I was angry with that generation; I said, ‘They are a people whose hearts go astray, and they have not known my ways.’ 11 So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’”
The Book of Hebrews takes the very words of YHWH and quotes them by saying, "The Holy Spirit says..." He doesn't say that God says through the Holy Spirit. He does not claim that the Lord utilized the means of His Spirit to reveal these words. He says that the Holy Spirit said those words which are plainly the words of YHWH. This occurs again later in the book:
"And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, 'This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws upon their heart, And on their mind I will write them,' He then says, "and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more,'” (Hebrews 10:15-16).
Jeremiah 31:33 “But at his is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Such passages not only equate the Holy Spirit with YHWH, but they do so in a way which shows the Holy Spirit as personal and interactive. The Holy Spirit is not an abstract aspect of YHWH's nature. He speaks, testifies, displays anger and wrath, makes covenants with people, and forgives sins. The Holy Spirit is a divine person. He is YHWH. Yet, again, He is not the Father or the Son. Each of the divine persons is distinct from and interacts with the others, as we elsewhere read:
"How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? " (Hebrews 9:14).
Here we see the beautiful interaction of Father, Son, and Spirit in the divine work of redemption. YHWH, the one true God, is a Trinity, and His gospel is a Trinitarian message. One God in three persons carrying out the redemption of sinners to His own eternal glory.
In Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord" The original Hebrew word in this scripture for one is ECHAD which means plural unity.
I found it inevitable that discussions like this become a christian debate, that's why this will be my last reply discussing about Trinity here. New Christians will be overwhelmed and might get turn off by this, so if you are new to the faith, take your time and learn slowly, knowing that Christianity have a lot of denominations, even some are cult. So always beware of false prophets and ask Holy Spirit for discernment.
So don't focus on denominations because no denomination is perfect, instead focus on Christ. Denominations (the non-cult ones lol) create clusters of unity which is necessary for overall unity in the body. Respect each other’s differences, and still have a fundamental unity because God doesn't like strife.
For Mr. Todd, I just want to give him my beliefs and why I belief based on the scriptures. There are many more that I've learned. But for now, this is enough.
At last, have a great day everyone.
According to Jesus he was alive and well in the world above before he was born as a man on earth.That's what the Bible says. Read revelation, Jesus is still referred to as a man up in heaven. Grant it, not an ordinary man!
I am sure Jesus is proud of you for that. What about casting the first stone again? But at least you're honest.Anybody who denies the Divinity of Jesus Christ or cosy up to those who do... i spit on !
Such fakeness i can't stand... and i am in the right to not stand for it.
He's the manifestation of God's word. He is the word of GodAccording to Jesus he was alive and well in the world above before he was born as a man on earth.
So was he God or an angel ?
You say he is not God and so for you to be logically relevant you must think although you won't say it...that he is an angel.
Of course i'm honest.I am sure Jesus is proud of you for that. What about casting the first stone again? But at least you're honest.
Anytime, Todd....it’s a tough job but somebody’s gotta do it!Thanks for reminding me again Claire....I really was sitting here wondering "Does Claire think I believe the Word of God?" LOL!
Anyways, I fail to see how Matthew 28:19 proves the Trinity. Matthew 28:19 is instruction on Baptism, not a teaching about the nature of God. There is no mention in the verse about equality or three persons in one being.
I'm saying the bible says Jesus is the word of God manifested in the flesh. Your word is you, your spirit is you, you are you, your hair is you, your DNA is you, your skin is you but that doesn't make you triune or even more or less. It doesn't take away from the truth that you are human, or does not deny your humanity, it does not detract from your humanity but all these things are you. Christ had no independent will as your words don't act of their own will but your will.The Word is God according to John.
So are you saying Jesus is God ?
The Word was with God and the Word was God.I'm saying the bible says Jesus is the word of God manifested in the flesh. Your word is you, your spirit is you, you are you, your hair is you, your DNA is you, your skin is you but that doesn't make you triune or even more or less. It doesn't take away from the truth that you are human, or does not deny your humanity, it does not detract from your humanity but all these things are you.