Which religion is really true and which isn't?

[Todd]

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;"
-‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭3:5‬

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
- Isaiah 55:8-9

For me it is simple I believe in the truth by FAITH.

I believe in the truth as presented in scripture, not as presented by man and organized religion.

When you trust in the Trinity doctrine you are trusting and leaning on the understanding (or lack thereof) of organized religion, not the thoughts or ways of God. Where is the Trinity described in scripture as the thought or way of God?

I can clearly show where the thoughts and ways of God in scripture contradict the Trinity doctrine.

 

[Todd]

You think Jesus is the Messiah but not God.

That's what muslims think.

Yeah, so what? They don't believe in the crucifixion and resurrection, so I don't see eye to eye with them on everything either.

BTW, It's also what Peter thought. Read Acts 2:14-41. No mention that Jesus was God himself. If this belief that Jesus is God is so important, why was it not included in the first post resurrection presentation of the gospel? Was Peter's preaching at Pentecost not inspired and true? In fact Peter made quite the clear distinction between God and the Messiah, Jesus who he explicitly refered to as a man.

 

[Allegra]

I believe in the truth as presented in scripture, not as presented by man and organized religion.

When you trust in the Trinity doctrine you are trusting and leaning on the understanding (or lack thereof) of organized religion, not the thoughts or ways of God. Where is the Trinity described in scripture as the thought or way of God?

I can clearly show where the thoughts and ways of God in scripture contradict the Trinity doctrine.

Before I’m replying further about Trinity, Just asking are u a Unitarian? If so then I will know how to reply you once I have time tomorrow. It’s already 12 am here so yeah.

 

[TokiEl]

Yeah, so what? They don't believe in the crucifixion and resurrection, so I don't see eye to eye with them on everything either.

BTW, It's also what Peter thought. Read Acts 2:14-41. No mention that Jesus was God himself. If this belief that Jesus is God is so important, why was it not included in the first post resurrection presentation of the gospel? Was Peter's preaching at Pentecost not inspired and true? In fact Peter made quite the clear distinction between God and the Messiah, Jesus who he explicitly refered to as a man.

Peter thought Jesus was a man ? Well of course because Jesus was a man !

Peter also thought Jesus was the Messiah and the son of God... and Jesus agreed with him.


So Jesus was a man and the Messiah and the Son of God...but what more according to Jesus himself ?

John 8 23Then He told them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

You must truly be a muslim to not understand that Jesus thought of himself as God.

 

[DevaWolf]

Christ is not a religion. It is a rebirth of a new man in Christ to be raised up with Christ to the Fathers house. Christ is the ONLY DOOR TO HEAVEN, There is no other way. Many try to climb over the fence, but they will be CAST OUT! The only other door is to the bottomless pit of a fiery hell for those who reject the Savior of the world. Jesus is not a religion, He is life everlasting.

The Bible is only a religious book where Jesus is found, but no matter.

Just become a Christian and ignore the Bible, this person says you can because Christ is not a religion.

So make your own truth and call it Christ, it's very convenient. Or maybe just not pick a religion at all, then you can pick your beliefs too.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Reason to not try to find your faith on this website

Read your Bible, start with John. If the Father does not draw you (by the word of God)….Then you are on your own merit. Men fail to recognize God by His creation. Even though Satan is the prince of this world (age) or principles it is governed under, because men chose to disobey God's instructions and has lost it's dominion to the principles of Satan, to show man the difference of the penalty of not believing God. that was perpetuated by Cane.

 

[Douglas Summers]

The Bible is only a religious book where Jesus is found, but no matter.

Just become a Christian and ignore the Bible, this person says you can because Christ is not a religion.

So make your own truth and call it Christ, it's very convenient. Or maybe just not pick a religion at all, then you can pick your beliefs too.

It is a Holy Book in it's original translation, and Christ is in all the Scriptures. Religion is a set of rules and carnal rituals to satisfy the carnal mind...self righteousness. If you were born again....You would know that.

 

[Todd]

Before I’m replying further about Trinity, Just asking are u a Unitarian? If so then I will know how to reply you once I have time tomorrow. It’s already 12 am here so yeah.

What is the difference what label one carries when discussing truth? I simply believe what scripture says. Jesus is the Messiah. God is one. I don't subscribe to the trintiy doctrine. What else do you need to know to reply?

 

[Todd]

Peter thought Jesus was a man ? Well of course because Jesus was a man !

Peter also thought Jesus was the Messiah and the son of God... and Jesus agreed with him.


So Jesus was a man and the Messiah and the Son of God...but what more according to Jesus himself ?

John 8 23Then He told them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

You must truly be a muslim to not understand that Jesus thought of himself as God.

Thre is nothing in John 8:23 that is Jesus saying he is God. Are the angels and demons of this world? No, but that does not make them God. The "HE" that Jesus is claiming to be is the Messiah, the Christ. There is no Biblical requirement that the Messiah/Christ be God himself. The Hebrews had no expectation that their long awaited Messiah would be God himself. So nothing in the passage you refer to should be intrepreted as Jesus claiming to be God. He was claiming to be the Messiah.

And no I am not a Muslim.

 

[Allegra]

What is the difference what label one carries when discussing truth? I simply believe what scripture says. Jesus is the Messiah. God is one. I don't subscribe to the trintiy doctrine. What else do you need to know to reply?

Ok Unitarian then. So label is needed to not confuse the flow of discussions esp for those who are reading and not participating.
Because for me, I believe in the scripture too and that God is 3 persons in 1 essence. Jesus and Father are one. So if Father is God then Jesus is also God.
And if Holy Spirit And Jesus are referred as YHWH in the Old Testament then Father, Son And Holy Spirit are the same being. One being.

 

[TokiEl]

Thre is nothing in John 8:23 that is Jesus saying he is God. Are the angels and demons of this world? No, but that does not make them God.

So in John 8:23 Jesus is implying to be an angel ?

The "HE" that Jesus is claiming to be is the Messiah, the Christ.

Actually Jesus did not claim to be "HE" (the english translations did) as Jesus himself only said "I am".

John 8 24That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.”

Before that he said he was not of this world but of the world above... so an angel according to you ?

 

[Claire Rousseau]

You come to ask this here?

Read the religious threads and see how much believers agree with each other about the truth. Then make up your mind to see if one resonates with you.

So far the only religion appealing to me somewhat is Hinduism, which denies the validity of no religion at all and teaches that all paths are valid as long as they are true to you.

Hinduism? You mean The worship of demons?

 

[Todd]

Ok Unitarian then. So label is needed to not confuse the flow of discussions esp for those who are reading and not participating.
Because for me, I believe in the scripture too and that God is 3 persons in 1 essence. Jesus and Father are one. So if Father is God then Jesus is also God.
And if Holy Spirit And Jesus are referred as YHWH in the Old Testament then Father, Son And Holy Spirit are the same being. One being.

That is not even what the doctrine of the Trinity states. The doctrine of the trinity states the Godhead exists in three seperate and distinct persons. You are trying to defend the Trinity doctrine when you don't even understand what the Trinity doctrine actually is.

The scripture reference where Jesus says he and the Father are one, is not a valid argument that Jesus is God, because in that same passage Jesus prays that we would be one with him. Are you claiming that Jesus prayed that we would all become God also?

This is the irrational and illogical path one is lead down, when the Trinitarian doctrine is fully examined and dissected.

 

[Todd]

So in John 8:23 Jesus is implying to be an angel ?



Actually Jesus did not claim to be "HE" (the english translations did) as Jesus himself only said "I am".

John 8 24That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.”

Before that he said he was not of this world but of the world above... so an angel according to you ?

No I am not saying Jesus implied he was an Angel. I was simply illustrating that because one is not of this world does not mean they are God. It's a very basic logical deduction. But then again logical deduction is rarely a tool used by Trinitarians in debating the doctrine.

 

[TokiEl]

Thre is nothing in John 8:23 that is Jesus saying he is God.

John said Jesus is God.

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

There is the Word and there is God... Two but at the same time One... since the Word is God.

 

[Allegra]

That is not even what the doctrine of the Trinity states. The doctrine of the trinity states the Godhead exists in three seperate and distinct persons. You are trying to defend the Trinity doctrine when you don't even understand what the Trinity doctrine actually is.

The scripture reference where Jesus says he and the Father are one, is not a valid argument that Jesus is God, because in that same passage Jesus prays that we would be one with him. Are you claiming that Jesus prayed that we would all become God also?

This is the irrational and illogical path one is lead down, when the Trinitarian doctrine is fully examined and dissected.

No I actually understan. I have met some people with many different Trinity and Unitarian doctrine in my Christian community. I have met people who don’t even believe Jesus is God. Or maybe yours is the new one. I don’t know. Feel free to share your belief here.

 

[Todd]

John said Jesus is God.

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

There is the Word and there is God... Two but at the same time One... since the Word is God.

The "logos" is the expression and intent of God. In Genesis the "logos" became creation, i.e. this world and all who inhabit it both man and animal and plants. So when John says the logos became flesh (in Jesus Christ) he is not saying that Jesus is God anymore than Genesis claims the earth and all it's inhabitants are God. Again simple logical deduction.

The logos is the expression of God. The perfect outward expression of God came though Jesus Christ, his Messiah. So though Christian's are not wrong by saying that Jesus is "the word of God" (i.e. his expression), it is not the same thing as saying Jesus is God. The Word of God (expression) came though many of the prophets in the Old Testament. Does this mean the prophets of the Old Testament were God also? Of course not.

Trinitarian scholars even admit that the church expanded and elevated the meaning of logos to something beyond what would have been recongnized by scholars and philosphers of John's day.

The word logos then, denoting both “reason” and “speech,” was a philosophical term adopted by Alexandrian Judaism before St. Paul wrote, to express the manifestation of the Unseen God in the creation and government of the World. It included all modes by which God makes Himself known to man. As His reason, it denoted His purpose or design; as His speech, it implied His revelation. Christian teachers, when they adopted this term, exalted and fixed its meaning by attaching to it two precise and definite ideas: (1) “The Word is a Divine Person,” (2) “The Word became incarnate in Jesus Christ.” It is obvious that these two propositions must have altered materially the significance of all the subordinate terms connected with the idea of the logos.

- renowned Trinitarian scholar, John Lightfoot

So here is a Trinitarian scholar who admits that Christian teachers exalted the meaning of logos to something beyond what would have been generally understood and accepted in the time that John actually wrote the passage.

 

[bible_student]

But you'll have individuals believe your founder is Jesus lol.

Christ.

 

[Todd]

No I actually understand.

Then please clarify your belief. Do you believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all the same being or do you believe they are three unique persons that compromise the Godhead? Because there is a difference and I'm trying to understand which one you subscribe to.

What I find is that when most Christians try to explain the doctrine of the trinity they actually end up contradicting the classical doctrine of the Trinity as taught by most scholars and schools of theology like you did previously.

God is not the author of confusion and the fact that the Trinity doctrine is the greatest source of confusion amongst Christians and within the Church is reason alone for me to reject it as being from God.

 

[Damien50]

No I am not saying Jesus implied he was an Angel. I was simply illustrating that because one is not of this world does not mean they are God. It's a very basic logical deduction. But then again logical deduction is rarely a tool used by Trinitarians in debating the doctrine.

To say that the spirit or the word of God have manifested or done anything doesn't equate to a trinity. My word and spirit would be representations of me rather than separate entities and not anything else because they directly relate to me and my will and mind. The earthly tenure of Jesus was doing the will of God not his own. I just kept reading repeatedly the gospel and there is no direct clarity for the Trinity, it can be insinuated or even inferred but it isn't explicitly stated and there is no biblical way to ascertain the supposition that there is one. It doesn't say love God, his spirit, and his word but to love God with all your heart because God is one that manifest his spirit and his word.

I think the Trinity is a far more abstract concept whereas, if never hearing about the Trinity, one wouldn't arrive to that conclusion but having read the words knows Jesus was a physical manifestation of God's word. I always hate this debate because it has become and unnecessarily integral part of Christianity that you aren't considered Christian for not believing something that wasn't even originally Christian doctrine. It doesn't take away from the bible or make God less omnipotent and it doesn't actually add anything useful. Essentially through the shame, sexual abuse, and murder of the Word of God in its physical manifestation we were granted grace and payment of our sins.