Where is commanded that I must believe Jesus is God?

[rainerann]

Somehow I came across this verse today and it reminded me of this conversation.

"May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace" (2 Thessalonians 1:2). It is common to associate Trinity doctrine with Paul and I have never been able to understand this considering this is the most common way that he addresses the subject in the letters that he wrote.

I have seen these discussions for a while now and I don't identify to either extreme personally. What I mean is that I am never going to defend that Jesus is God, but I am also never going to defend that he is not. This is because the argument that he is not usually denies central teachings on the power of the resurrection and the role of Messiah.

So what people seem to do without realizing our own tendency towards idolatry, is they look for the big, flashy parts of this verse. GOD is flashy and can become big and imposing and intimidated like the Goodyear blimp. So people make this a sort of competition so that Jesus is either simultaneously Messiah and also this Goodyear blimp version of God that people imagine.

Either that, or a verse like this is saying God is like a Goodyear blimp and Jesus is just the Messiah, which is basically nothing more than a man.

Although, the real star of this verse is the simple and ignored conjunction "and" that no one notices that is the chain between the two so that what Paul is teaching is about the unity of the Son and the Father, not this competition.

There is the famous verse about not fighting against flesh and blood but against spiritual forces of evil (Ephesians 6:12). It is the presence of these things that can stunt spiritual growth. If only we could see everything that remains in darkness to know that many things that we hang onto in fear of letting go of, we do because of the fear of spiritual forces of evil rather than a real fear of disobedience.

If God is love, there is no reason to fear that He is going to strike you with a lighting bolt for getting the wrong answer from time-to-time. The real fear of change is created by a sense that spiritual forces of evil will attack, and so finding a comfortable place to be is sometimes not worth giving up. If you feel comfortable within this awareness of all that that is happening around you that remains unseen, then maybe this means that your doctrines are responsible for protecting you from facing another battle.

It took me a long time to realize that this was behind the fear I had of continuing to grow as a Christian. So the point is that there is nothing to be afraid of in leaving either extreme of this discussion. I think that the original perspective of the early church did not exist in either of the extremes that are presenting themselves today and it is why I am not a supporter of Trinity doctrine myself as a written definition that exists separate from the scripture. What I am able to gain from scripture is enough to paint a picture without being told how to think.

Here is a link to a list of all the times that Paul says God the Father and the Son. And is the key word. It is all about unity. We are prone to idolatry whether we are Christian are not and that colors our perspective in discussions like this for all parties.

http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=God+the+Father+and+Christ+Jesus

 

[bible_student]

I think the emphasis of this story wasn't that Abraham just "believed" that God existed, but that he trusted beyond his own understanding what God asked him to do and followed through on that trust. It's important that Abraham's trust was not contigent on him understanding or believing a doctrine or dogma, but that he was obedient to what God specifically asked him to do.

Some Bible versions have now translated Genesis 15:6 as:
"And he believed The LORD" (instead of "And he believed in The LORD"):
https://biblehub.com/genesis/15-6.htm

It appears that the use of the word "in" in that verse, is almost arbitrary and may just depend on the interpretation or it was done that way following the convention of how the translation was being done in other verses. But in the context of what was actually happening, and what God had said to Abraham, I also find that it makes a lot more sense to read it that way (without the "in"). Because Abraham did not just believe "in" God, he believed God (that what God was saying to him, was the truth) and then subsequently proved his faith (trust) in God by being obedient.

15:6 And he believed the "I AM"; and He counted it to him for righteousness.

 

[Todd]

Somehow I came across this verse today and it reminded me of this conversation.

"May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace" (2 Thessalonians 1:2). It is common to associate Trinity doctrine with Paul and I have never been able to understand this considering this is the most common way that he addresses the subject in the letters that he wrote.

I have seen these discussions for a while now and I don't identify to either extreme personally. What I mean is that I am never going to defend that Jesus is God, but I am also never going to defend that he is not. This is because the argument that he is not usually denies central teachings on the power of the resurrection and the role of Messiah.

So what people seem to do without realizing our own tendency towards idolatry, is they look for the big, flashy parts of this verse. GOD is flashy and can become big and imposing and intimidated like the Goodyear blimp. So people make this a sort of competition so that Jesus is either simultaneously Messiah and also this Goodyear blimp version of God that people imagine.

Either that, or a verse like this is saying God is like a Goodyear blimp and Jesus is just the Messiah, which is basically nothing more than a man.

Although, the real star of this verse is the simple and ignored conjunction "and" that no one notices that is the chain between the two so that what Paul is teaching is about the unity of the Son and the Father, not this competition.

There is the famous verse about not fighting against flesh and blood but against spiritual forces of evil (Ephesians 6:12). It is the presence of these things that can stunt spiritual growth. If only we could see everything that remains in darkness to know that many things that we hang onto in fear of letting go of, we do because of the fear of the devil roaming around like a lion rather than a real fear of disobedience.

If God is love, there is no reason to fear that He is going to strike you with a lighting bolt for getting the wrong answer from time-to-time. The real fear of change is created a sense that spiritual forces of evil will attack, and so finding a comfortable place to be is sometimes not worth giving up. If you feel comfortable within this awareness of all that that is happening around you that remains unseen, then maybe this means that your doctrines are responsible for protecting you from facing another battle.

It took me a long time to realize that this was behind the fear I had of continuing to grow as a Christian. So the point is that there is nothing to be afraid of is leaving either extreme of this discussion. I think that the original perspective of the early church did not exist in either of the extremes that are presenting themselves today and it is why I am not a supporter of Trinity doctrine myself as a written definition that exists separate from the scripture. What I am able to gain from scripture is enough to paint a picture without being told how to think.

Here is a link to a list of all the times that Paul says God the Father and the Son. And is the key word. It is all about unity. We are prone to idolatry whether we are Christian are not and that colors our perspective in discussions like this for all parties.

http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=God+the+Father+and+Christ+Jesus

Bravo! well said...

 

[yannick]

Born again or baptism through the use of water?

Muslims need to purify themselves before their five daily prayers.

I found this relevant: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20151110230345AAI2Ih7&guccounter=1

 

[Karlysymon]

Uhm what? Where did you get the idea that Messiah has to be God? If anything it is quite the opposite. There is nothing in the OT that made the Hebrews beleive the expected Messiah was going to be God himself.

How do you read Micah 5:2?

 

[Karlysymon]

If Jesus was God why would he have need of the Father to teach him?

In this thread I am not looking to argue whether Jesus is God or not. I am simply asking where it is commanded that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved.

In the Christianity idolatry thread, this question is being ingnored so I thought I would ask it here hoping to get it answered.

Iam going to try and tackle this from a completely different angle because the question demands an oversimplified answer.
Like a drop into a body of water that sends ripples beyond, my belief is that Adam and Eve’s actions weren’t confined to earth but reached the very throne of God and sundered the Godhead. Basing on (Hebrews 1:5 or psalm 2:7), my understanding is that at some point in time, the “today I/you have become…” happened. For the sake of the redemption of man and dealing with the problem of sin as a whole, a subordination within the Godhead had to happen. We see a little of this in Adam and Eve’s relationship before and after the Fall. Created in the “likeness” of God,** they stood as equals but the Fall forever altered their relationship or that dynamic till the restoration. Hence Christ’s statements that clearly portray a subordination to the Father.

**[It is a btw but God is love, and because humans also can love (and in ways that the rest of the earthly creation certainly can’t), to be created in His image must include the ability to love. Yet, love can exist only in relationship with others. Thus, whatever else being made in the image of God entails, it must entail the capacity to love, and to love deeply.]

Adding onto @KoncreteMind’s point, that you implicitly accept the divinity of Christ but explicitly doubt or deny it, iam going to use the atheists as an example. The majority of atheists you and I know won’t tell you that they ‘killed’ God (Deicide) and enthroned themselves as their own absolute moral authority. Most simply say they just don’t believe there is a God. (Un)fortunately, the logical conclusion to their belief is Deicide and/or apotheosis. Most don’t see it that way nor would they personally accept the appellation of ‘Cosmic assassins’, because they haven’t taken it to its logical conclusion. They don’t even need a ‘sacred text’ to spell it out. The belief naturally ‘unloads’ it. Neither will most of them tell you this:

“It is philosophically impossible to be an atheist, since to be an atheist you must have infinite knowledge in order to know absolutely that there is no God. But to have infinite knowledge, you would have to be God yourself. It’s hard to be God yourself and an atheist at the same time!” ~[Ron Carlson and Ed Decker]. In order to be philosophically consistent, the atheist must eventually conclude that he/she is a god.

Same with Unitarians in being dishonest about their belief. The denominations you listed aren’t being intellectually honest. The belief we both hold, of Christ’s redemptive work on the cross, taken to its conclusion exposes Christ’s divinity. There is no way around it. Even an outsider (non Christian), who examines the themes of the cross eventually arrives at that conclusion, with or without Niceae. Its simply impossible that a mere mortal would carry blood, potent enough to pay for the sins of every human who has ever lived; past present and future, reconcile things in earth and in HEAVEN, and safeguard the age to come.
So while there may or may not be an explicit verse where Christ says “Iam God” or that the belief in His divinity is a requisite for salvation, if you are going to acknowledge/accept His work on the cross for the salvation of your soul (which is necessary for any denomination to be classified as Christian), you inadvertently acknowledge His divinity even though one may claim to be a Unitarian. The cross simply demands it. Therefore, as I see it, for a Unitarian to remain intellectually honest, s/he is better off subscribing to Islam; jettison the cross/redemption and the problem of Christ’s divinity (and the implications thereof) goes away.

 

[yannick]

It's not commanded at all to believe that Jesus is God.

Firstly, Who Is The One Commanding everything to exist at each moment?

The CREATOR, right? One does feel at peace knowing that He Will Always Provide, no matter what happens, right?

Also, if we are enjoying this peace through this belief, isn't it praiseworthy to want others to enjoy the same peace of mind as we are?

If peace is what we all yearn for, then where is the logic to ascribe any form to God?

If some say that He is like this while others say that He is like that, GOD Forbid, then will these people be at peace with each other? For sure not!

Then isn't it the solution to just say that He Exists and Will Always be there for us no matter what, and given that nobody has ever seen Him, except perhaps that He Is The Light Who Extinguishes all that is evil and false, so that all people come to a common denominational faith in order to live in peace with each other? I think that is pretty simple for anybody to understand and from this viewpoint, you need not any scripture for reference.

I mean, come on, where is the need for scripture when you realize that you never chose your body nor your family? Isn't that sufficient enough to deduce that The CREATOR Chose it for you?

Those questions I address to Todd or anybody who wants to answer for that matter, if you may oblige me please, thank you.

 

[elsbet]

What may perhaps be good to consider, following any kind of discussion like this, is that it is God Who decides how He tests each one of us. How He knows it is needed to test one person, may be different from how He knows to test another person. Abraham had his test. To an outsider, who did not know of God's Purpose with testing Abraham in the exact way He tested him, Abraham's test might have made absolutely zero sense to them, and quite possibly seemed absurd and unbelievable, and they may have felt that it could not possibly be... "because that is not how God tests people!" or, whatever other thought they might have had pop into their head to tell them that Abraham's test was wrong and could not be. But, that was God's Test for Abraham. We are all tested, and of that, only God knows the details of each person. We know, that it says "The LORD sees not as man sees, for man looks on the outward appearance, but The LORD looks on the heart." One person may be tested in a way, that does not conform to another persons exact beliefs and expectations and therefore, it might not be apparent to another person, based on what they are given, and that again also being part of their test. I was told once, "each of you have your own path, but The Way is the same." In Genesis, it tells the great story of how Abraham was tested by God and it says, that Abraham believed God, and that was accounted to him for righteousness. That there is very much that may be learned from that, of that there can be no doubt. So, on that note, I would like to wish you all the best for today, and may it go well with you and your tests, whatever that might be. Be well, and God Bless! bible_student.

Tested... you mean tempted to sin / who or what will one choose? To sin or not sin?

 

[elsbet]

Iam going to try and tackle this from a completely different angle because the question demands an oversimplified answer.
Like a drop into a body of water that sends ripples beyond, my belief is that Adam and Eve’s actions weren’t confined to earth but reached the very throne of God and sundered the Godhead. Basing on (Hebrews 1:5 or psalm 2:7), my understanding is that at some point in time, the “today I/you have become…” happened. For the sake of the redemption of man and dealing with the problem of sin as a whole, a subordination within the Godhead had to happen. We see a little of this in Adam and Eve’s relationship before and after the Fall. Created in the “likeness” of God,** they stood as equals but the Fall forever altered their relationship or that dynamic till the restoration. Hence Christ’s statements that clearly portray a subordination to the Father.

**[It is a btw but God is love, and because humans also can love (and in ways that the rest of the earthly creation certainly can’t), to be created in His image must include the ability to love. Yet, love can exist only in relationship with others. Thus, whatever else being made in the image of God entails, it must entail the capacity to love, and to love deeply.]

Adding onto @KoncreteMind’s point, that you implicitly accept the divinity of Christ but explicitly doubt or deny it, iam going to use the atheists as an example. The majority of atheists you and I know won’t tell you that they ‘killed’ God (Deicide) and enthroned themselves as their own absolute moral authority. Most simply say they just don’t believe there is a God. (Un)fortunately, the logical conclusion to their belief is Deicide and/or apotheosis. Most don’t see it that way nor would they personally accept the appellation of ‘Cosmic assassins’, because they haven’t taken it to its logical conclusion. They don’t even need a ‘sacred text’ to spell it out. The belief naturally ‘unloads’ it. Neither will most of them tell you this:

“It is philosophically impossible to be an atheist, since to be an atheist you must have infinite knowledge in order to know absolutely that there is no God. But to have infinite knowledge, you would have to be God yourself. It’s hard to be God yourself and an atheist at the same time!” ~[Ron Carlson and Ed Decker]. In order to be philosophically consistent, the atheist must eventually conclude that he/she is a god.

Same with Unitarians in being dishonest about their belief. The denominations you listed aren’t being intellectually honest. The belief we both hold, of Christ’s redemptive work on the cross, taken to its conclusion exposes Christ’s divinity. There is no way around it. Even an outsider (non Christian), who examines the themes of the cross eventually arrives at that conclusion, with or without Niceae. Its simply impossible that a mere mortal would carry blood, potent enough to pay for the sins of every human who has ever lived; past present and future, reconcile things in earth and in HEAVEN, and safeguard the age to come.
So while there may or may not be an explicit verse where Christ says “Iam God” or that the belief in His divinity is a requisite for salvation, if you are going to acknowledge/accept His work on the cross for the salvation of your soul (which is necessary for any denomination to be classified as Christian), you inadvertently acknowledge His divinity even though one may claim to be a Unitarian. The cross simply demands it. Therefore, as I see it, for a Unitarian to remain intellectually honest, s/he is better off subscribing to Islam; jettison the cross/redemption and the problem of Christ’s divinity (and the implications thereof) goes away.

Words fail.

Spoiler

 

[elsbet]

It's not commanded at all to believe that Jesus is God.

Firstly, Who Is The One Commanding everything to exist at each moment?

The CREATOR, right? One does feel at peace knowing that He Will Always Provide, no matter what happens, right?

Also, if we are enjoying this peace through this belief, isn't it praiseworthy to want others to enjoy the same peace of mind as we are?

If peace is what we all yearn for, then where is the logic to ascribe any form to God?

If some say that He is like this while others say that He is like that, GOD Forbid, then will these people be at peace with each other? For sure not!

Then isn't it the solution to just say that He Exists and Will Always be there for us no matter what, and given that nobody has ever seen Him, except perhaps that He Is The Light Who Extinguishes all that is evil and false, so that all people come to a common denominational faith in order to live in peace with each other? I think that is pretty simple for anybody to understand and from this viewpoint, you need not any scripture for reference.

I mean, come on, where is the need for scripture when you realize that you never chose your body not your family? Isn't that sufficient enough to deduce that The CREATOR Chose it for you?

Those questions I address to Todd or anybody who wants to answer for that matter, if you may oblige me please, thank you.

I disagree with the first line but I believe that God leads us to Him-- and to all Truth. I dont think He is observing from On High, saying 'Ooooh... wrong choice! Tough break.' :/

God knows the Heart.. end of story.

 

[Todd]

Iam going to try and tackle this from a completely different angle because the question demands an oversimplified answer.
Like a drop into a body of water that sends ripples beyond, my belief is that Adam and Eve’s actions weren’t confined to earth but reached the very throne of God and sundered the Godhead. Basing on (Hebrews 1:5 or psalm 2:7), my understanding is that at some point in time, the “today I/you have become…” happened. For the sake of the redemption of man and dealing with the problem of sin as a whole, a subordination within the Godhead had to happen. We see a little of this in Adam and Eve’s relationship before and after the Fall. Created in the “likeness” of God,** they stood as equals but the Fall forever altered their relationship or that dynamic till the restoration. Hence Christ’s statements that clearly portray a subordination to the Father.

**[It is a btw but God is love, and because humans also can love (and in ways that the rest of the earthly creation certainly can’t), to be created in His image must include the ability to love. Yet, love can exist only in relationship with others. Thus, whatever else being made in the image of God entails, it must entail the capacity to love, and to love deeply.]

Adding onto @KoncreteMind’s point, that you implicitly accept the divinity of Christ but explicitly doubt or deny it, iam going to use the atheists as an example. The majority of atheists you and I know won’t tell you that they ‘killed’ God (Deicide) and enthroned themselves as their own absolute moral authority. Most simply say they just don’t believe there is a God. (Un)fortunately, the logical conclusion to their belief is Deicide and/or apotheosis. Most don’t see it that way nor would they personally accept the appellation of ‘Cosmic assassins’, because they haven’t taken it to its logical conclusion. They don’t even need a ‘sacred text’ to spell it out. The belief naturally ‘unloads’ it. Neither will most of them tell you this:

“It is philosophically impossible to be an atheist, since to be an atheist you must have infinite knowledge in order to know absolutely that there is no God. But to have infinite knowledge, you would have to be God yourself. It’s hard to be God yourself and an atheist at the same time!” ~[Ron Carlson and Ed Decker]. In order to be philosophically consistent, the atheist must eventually conclude that he/she is a god.

Same with Unitarians in being dishonest about their belief. The denominations you listed aren’t being intellectually honest. The belief we both hold, of Christ’s redemptive work on the cross, taken to its conclusion exposes Christ’s divinity. There is no way around it. Even an outsider (non Christian), who examines the themes of the cross eventually arrives at that conclusion, with or without Niceae. Its simply impossible that a mere mortal would carry blood, potent enough to pay for the sins of every human who has ever lived; past present and future, reconcile things in earth and in HEAVEN, and safeguard the age to come.
So while there may or may not be an explicit verse where Christ says “Iam God” or that the belief in His divinity is a requisite for salvation, if you are going to acknowledge/accept His work on the cross for the salvation of your soul (which is necessary for any denomination to be classified as Christian), you inadvertently acknowledge His divinity even though one may claim to be a Unitarian. The cross simply demands it. Therefore, as I see it, for a Unitarian to remain intellectually honest, s/he is better off subscribing to Islam; jettison the cross/redemption and the problem of Christ’s divinity (and the implications thereof) goes away.

Thank you for the well thought out response. I have stated that I'm okay with the idea that Christ is really God if that happens to be true, but what you are saying is far from what the Trinity doctrine states. Did Jesus need to fully empty himself and allow the Sprit of God to fully consume him to accomplish his mission? Yes. Was Jesus one with the Father? Yes, but in the same way that Jesus prayed we would be one with him.

Paul mentions this when he says it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives through me. Of course I am not aware of any that have attained the 100% perfect realization of that like Christ did, but theoretically God has provided that possibility for those who are fully submitted to him.

Many of us have caught glimpses of that in our lives when God has lived and moved through us. So in that sense I affirm the divintiy of Christ in that he allowed the spirit of God to fully consume him and live through him pefectly and fully. But's that different than the 3 co-equal persons of the Godhead as stated by the trinity doctrine.

Is it possbile that Christ was pre-existant (but still created) as a spirt and messenger of God before being sent as the son of Mary? Yes it is possible but I don't see it as explicity taught by scripture, and therefore not a critical doctrine.

 

[Daciple]

Was Jesus one with the Father? Yes, but in the same way that Jesus prayed we would be one with him.

Paul mentions this when he says it is no longer I that live but Christ that lives through me. Of course I am not aware of any that have attained the 100% perfect realization of that like Christ did, but theoretically God has provided that possibility for those who are fully submitted to him.

This is all simply incorrect, it is as tho you dont even comprehend that Jesus Christ had NO SIN in Him. He wasnt just some good dude, who one day was overcame by the Spirit of God and then transformed into being the Son of God who could take up the Cross for our Salvation.

We can NEVER realize anything close to what Christ was because we are all Sinners, we are NOT God and therefore your idea of this supposed theory is incorrect. In fact it is borderline Blasphemous. The description you are giving and the manner in which you are speaking is adjacent to this New Age Christ Consciousness, and Self Enlightenment in raise our awareness so that we to can ascend into Heaven in the same manner as Jesus.

You are trying to use John 17:21 as the basis of what you are trying to say here and sorry that is not the idea Jesus is trying to profess. It also states that we may all be one, as in all the Believers, do you think that means that you are in me and I am in you therefore we are the same entity?

No of course not, It is not the union of nature which is referred to, but the union of plan, of counsel, of purpose seeking the same objects, and manifesting attachment to the same things, and a desire to promote the same ends. However when Jesus confesses that He and the Father are one He is indeed making a declaration of His Nature, because His Nature is the exact Nature of God Himself. So many Scripture all of which have been quoted here reference this fact, that Jesus has Divine Nature. There is no entity that can posses the Nature of Christ and NOT be God, that would be impossible.

So in that sense I affirm the divintiy of Christ in that he allowed the spirit of God to fully consume him and live through him pefectly and fully.

Again you are making it out to be the same False Ideal of Christ Conciousness, that Jesus was a normal man that submitted to God and that the Spirit lived thru Him to make Him perfect, but that again is NOT who Christ is. Christ is fundamentally 100% Divine, not because He submitted to the Spirit of God, He was Divine from the moment of His Birth into this World. He was Sinless from Birth to Death, His Nature is NOT like our Nature because He is completely perfect.

You attribute Christs Divinity to Him "allowing the Spirit of God to fully consume him" and prior to stating that you make it out as tho some other human is capable of doing this, which is impossible because no other human is God.

And thus why the Trinity is the correct and only understanding of the make up of God. Jesus existed before He became a man on Earth. Jesus existed before Creation. Jesus IS the Creator Himself, all things that are made were made by Him and thru Him, visible and invisible. Jesus was completely Perfect, only God can be completely Perfect. So if we have Jesus, the Creator, who existed before everything, who was Perfect and we clearly know that there is a Father, there is no other understanding that incorporates these facts together besides the Trinity.

And I still can not understand why you after all these years are trying to do everything in your power to Deny Christ, why dont you just Repent and Accept Christ for who He is? Its much easier than being on this constant Theological Merry Go Round that I have witnessed you be apart of for your time on this forum.

Somethings should have been settled in your heart years ago concerning Christ, but to see you be so wishy washy on fundamental doctrines shows me and I am sure many others that you still have yet to Repent and accept Christ, just do it brother, then you can stop trying to build your faith on such shifting sands...

Here is what I can tell you personally, there are certain Doctrines that I have 100% settled in my heart, that nothing in this world can or ever has or ever will shake me on. This is what we are SUPPOSED to have in our hearts, dont believe me?

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

1 Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Titus 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

Titus 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

There are certain Doctrines that are essential to the Faith, essential to teaching and preaching, and these Doctrines ought to be settled in the heart of all Christians when they are Born Again. The Divinity of Jesus Christ is one of these Doctrines, and there is nothing on the face of the planet that could ever get me or IMO ANY Born Again believer in Christ to EVER deny Christ as God.

I believe as to making a point, I could go as far in life to utterly despise Christ and God, to reject Him 100% but even at that point it would be impossible for me to deny that He IS God. I cant ever do it, it has been settled in my heart long ago. I have wrestled over many different ideologies in the Christian Faith, but never once has it even come close to even think to deny Jesus as God. That is to fully reject Christ, to teach or preach that Jesus ISNT God, that is exactly what Paul warns over and over concerning False Doctrine.

Those people who teach and preach that Jesus ISNT God, they are to be marked and avoided, they are transgressing and abiding not in the Doctrine of Christ, they are the ones that have turned their ears to fables, being carried about by every false doctrine.

I have seen it time and time again, those who reject Christ as Divine, then start piling up all sorts of other False Doctrines upon themselves, it never fails, I have yet to meet any person who claims the title Christian who rejects Christ as God who isnt also subscribed to many other False Doctrines, many of which are either directly Salvation Dependent or as close as you can get to Salvation Dependent that it completely changes the Blood of Christ.

Jesus is God, do you think the Early Christians were dying because they were professing something else? No sir it is THAT specific thing that got all of them Murdered. Rome wouldnt have cared if people were preaching that Jesus was a good man that was possessed by God, they basically believed in stories close to that. What they didnt like was that Christians were straight up calling their gods False and proclaiming Jesus AS GOD above theirs and that they will go to Hell if they dont Repent and Worship HIM above their false gods...

I mean the Bible illustrates this clearly, yet you want to tell other people that the Apostles were saying Jesus is God?

Acts 19:22 So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season.
23 And the same time there arose no small stir about that way.
24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;
25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.
26 Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:
27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

The preaching of the Gospel and the Jesus they preached were in direct competition to their gods, they wanted them killed because they were preaching Christ as being above their gods. In all things, in all places, they preached Christ as Divine, and it is because of this claim that they were being put to death. If these people would have just recanted and stated Jesus ISNT God they wouldnt have been getting murdered, but they refused to deny Christ, they settled that issue in their heart when they were Born Again, just like every other believer on the face of the planet..

Jesus is God period, get Born Again and I assure you that you will 100% believe and KNOW this as a fact, so much so that you would be willing to die before rejecting it...

 

[yannick]

I disagree with the first line but I believe that God leads us to Him-- and to all Truth. I dont think He is observing from On High, saying 'Ooooh... wrong choice! Tough break.' :/

God knows the Heart.. end of story.

You've every right to disagree and so do I with your disagreement respectfully.

God Created sight for us. He Sees everything that everybody is seeing at each and every moment. He Knows the adulterations of the eyes, ears, tongues, and hearts for sure too. Do we feel any shame for that or have most lost modesty?

Do you really believe that the sun shines on it's own power?

Todd, I see you're keeping silent. If you remain so, I'll understand that I'm not welcome to comment here, cheers and sorry if I've bothered you. Peace matey.

 

[bible_student]

Tested... you mean tempted to sin / who or what will one choose? To sin or not sin?

I meant tested, but yes, it does also come down to that. God tells us the Truth, and then "uses" the devil, by allowing him tempt us with lies, in order to see if we have really believed Him.

I just started with Hebrews

2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

 

[Todd]

You've every right to disagree and so do I with your disagreement respectfully.

God Created sight for us. He Sees everything that everybody is seeing at each and every moment. He Knows the adulterations of the eyes, ears, tongues, and hearts for sure too. Do we feel any shame for that or have most lost modesty?

Do you really believe that the sun shines on it's own power?

Todd, I see you're keeping silent. If you remain so, I'll understand that I'm not welcome to comment here, cheers and sorry if I've bothered you. Peace matey.

No bother at all. You are always free and welcome to comment here. I appreciate what you are saying, though I don't know that we see eye to eye on the importance of scripture. I think the Trinity doctrine at the very best is man's futile attempt to grasp something we can not comprehend. But if we can't comprehend it, why do Christians so vehemently defend the doctrine, like it's absolute truth.

I think you and I agree that God is one, but I think we may still differ on our view of Jesus. Whether he is technically God or not is actually irrelevant to me, because I trust that he is the Messiah and the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. If some believe that he has to be God to be the Messiah and the Christ, so be it, but I don't see that as necessary. In that aspect I do just rest in the peace, that for me, comes from knowing that God did send Jesus to pay the ransom and be the mediator between God and man.

 

[bible_student]

I think one reason, or it might even be the main reason, for why so many Christians defend the trinity doctrine is because the trinity doctrine, in a nutshell, teaches people that their very life depends on believing the trinity doctrine. So, for many there is a fear to even question it, because of believing that if you don't believe the trinity doctrine, then you cannot be saved (which is, I believe, how the Catholic church basically worded the doctrine originally).

 

[yannick]

Well thank you for your reply. Appreciate you too. More later, If God Keeps me alive.

 

[Todd]

Well thank you for your reply. Appreciate you too. More later, If God Keeps me alive.

Well I will pray he does so that I can "read" you later...

 

[bible_student]

“Our opponents sometimes claim that no belief should be held dogmatically which is not explicitly stated in scripture ... But the Protestant Churches have themselves accepted such dogmas, AS THE TRINITY, for which there is no such precise authority in the Gospels,” — (Assumption of Mary, Life magazine, Oct 30, 1950, p. 51)



From the Athanasian Creed: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith unless every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity...
...This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."

"The doctrine of the Trinity is the central Catholic Dogma, that Catholics are obliged to believe.

“He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.”​

-the Athanasian Creed"​

 

[Vytas]

I think one reason, or it might even be the main reason, for why so many Christians defend the trinity doctrine is because the trinity doctrine, in a nutshell, teaches people that their very life depends on believing the trinity doctrine. So, for many there is a fear to even question it, because of believing that if you don't believe the trinity doctrine, then you cannot be saved (which is, I believe, how the Catholic church basically worded the doctrine originally).

You speaking like Christians have a switch for their faith to to turn on or off...And no our life doesn't depend on it...On doctrine...just to make it clear...