Where is commanded that I must believe Jesus is God?

[bible_student]

So are we, or aren't we, supposed to judge?

Judge not (don't make up your own judgements, as is clear from the context).
Only learn to know and apply God's Judgements found in The Law.
Applying God's Judgements that He gave us is "judging with righteous judgement" (applying God's Righteous Judgements, not your own idea of judgement of what you think to be right or wrong, which varies from person to person).

Pretty simple.

 

[Thunderian]

Judge not (don't make up your own judgements, as is clear from the context).
Only learn to know and apply God's Judgements found in The Law.
Applying God's Judgements that He gave us is "judging with righteous judgement" (applying God's Righteous Judgements, not your own idea of judgement of what you think to be right or wrong, which varies from person to person).

Pretty simple.

You said the Quran is from God. Using the Bible, I am able to judge that it is not.

Pretty simple.

 

[elsbet]

Psalm 49:6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;

7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Way to take a verse out of context and make it fit your doctrine. The way I read it says those that trust in wealth and boast in riches cannot redeem a brother. Doesn't appear to mean that a perfect sinless human cannot redeem man....

I didn't take out of context. What you put doesnt change the meaning.

Why should I be afraid when evil days come my way, when the wickedness of those who deceive me surrounds me— those who put confidence in their wealth and boast about their great riches?

No man can redeem the life of another, nor can he give to God a sufficient payment for him— for it would cost too much to redeem his life, and the payments would go on forever— that he should go on living and not see corruption.

Have you not bothered to read any exposition on this?

Spoiler: GILLS EXPOSITION

GILL'S EXPOSITION
... Indeed a rich man may redeem his brother from debt, or from a prison, into which he is cast for it, by paying his debts for him; or from thraldom and bondage, being taken captive and becoming a prisoner of war, by giving a ransom for him.

This he may do with respect to man; but, with respect to God, he cannot, with all his riches, pay the debts he owes to the law and justice of God; nor free him from his bondage to sin, Satan, and the law, by whom he is held a captive. The sense here is, that he cannot redeem him from death; he cannot, with all his money, secure him from dying; nor, when dead, bring him back from the grave; and much less deliver him from eternal death, or wrath to come; this only God can do, see Psalm 49:15;

Only, God doth ransom my soul from the hand of Sheol, For He doth receive me.
PSALM 49:15


And there is no contradiction. Jesus was fully man, and fully God-- Paul went on to clarify the difference between the two men later in the chapter:

"The first man, Adam, became a living being.”

The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

-CONTINUED IN SPOILER-

Spoiler

The spiritual does not come first, but the physical does, and then comes the spiritual.

The first man came from the dust of the earth; the second man came from heaven.

Those who are made of the dust are like the man from the dust; those who are heavenly are like the man who is from heaven.

Just as we have borne the likeness of the man who was made from dust, we will also bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:45-49

 

[bible_student]

You said the Quran is from God. Using the Bible, I am able to judge that it is not.

Pretty simple.

Having read both multiple times, I don't believe that you really can.

 

[elsbet]

Having read both multiple times, I don't believe that you really can.

The bible is clear on the matter of the quran-- we are warned in Galatians--

But even if we or an angel out of heaven should preach a gospel to you contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let him be accursed!

And it is a VERY DIFFERENT Gospel.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

You said the Quran is from God. Using the Bible, I am able to judge that it is not.

Pretty simple.

"Judge not" is used rather like a Swiss army knife for those who wish to avoid the discernment of others.

One of the basic logical principles is "A is not "non A". @bible_student - The message of the Qur'an is at many points in contradiction to the Bible. To say it is at every point would be mistaken, but that key area of difference, the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, is not the same in both. Given that contradiction, they cannot both be true (but both could be false).

@Todd asks a very interesting but unanswerable question in the OP. Since one of the key tests of a true Christian is to be someone who knows and is known by the Lord. To know someone is to know "who" they are. I don't get to judge if someone truly has a born again relationship with Jesus. That is something that is between them and the Lord.

 

[elsbet]

Job 9:33 sets out a quandary

“For He is not a man, as I am,
That I may answer Him,
And that we should go to court together.
33 Nor is there any mediator between us,
Who may lay his hand on us both.
34 Let Him take His rod away from me,
And do not let dread of Him terrify me.
35 Then I would speak and not fear Him,
But it is not so with me.

If Jesus is less than fully man, he cannot represent us.

If He is less than fully God, He cannot represent Him.

Nicely done! This is a very good illustration & explanation, Red.

 

[Todd]

I didn't take out of context. What you put doesnt change the meaning.

Why should I be afraid when evil days come my way, when the wickedness of those who deceive me surrounds me— those who put confidence in their wealth and boast about their great riches?

No man can redeem the life of another, nor can he give to God a sufficient payment for him— for it would cost too much to redeem his life, and the payments would go on forever— that he should go on living and not see corruption.

Have you not bothered to read any exposition on this?

Spoiler: GILLS EXPOSITION

GILL'S EXPOSITION
... Indeed a rich man may redeem his brother from debt, or from a prison, into which he is cast for it, by paying his debts for him; or from thraldom and bondage, being taken captive and becoming a prisoner of war, by giving a ransom for him.

This he may do with respect to man; but, with respect to God, he cannot, with all his riches, pay the debts he owes to the law and justice of God; nor free him from his bondage to sin, Satan, and the law, by whom he is held a captive. The sense here is, that he cannot redeem him from death; he cannot, with all his money, secure him from dying; nor, when dead, bring him back from the grave; and much less deliver him from eternal death, or wrath to come; this only God can do, see Psalm 49:15;

Only, God doth ransom my soul from the hand of Sheol, For He doth receive me.
PSALM 49:15


And there is no contradiction. Jesus was fully man, and fully God-- Paul went on to clarify the difference between the two men later in the chapter:

"The first man, Adam, became a living being.”

The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

-CONTINUED IN SPOILER-

Spoiler

The spiritual does not come first, but the physical does, and then comes the spiritual.

The first man came from the dust of the earth; the second man came from heaven.

Those who are made of the dust are like the man from the dust; those who are heavenly are like the man who is from heaven.

Just as we have borne the likeness of the man who was made from dust, we will also bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:45-49

Numbers 23:19 19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

And we can go on forever trading versus that we think make our point...thus proving my point that it is not an explicit point in scripture that we must believe Jesus is God.

 

[yannick]

Numbers 23:19 19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

And we can go on forever trading versus that we think make our point...thus proving my point that it is not an explicit point in scripture that we must believe Jesus is God.

Perfecto! Saying that Jesus was fully man and fully God is what opens the door to false Christs arising. Can Christians please close that door by logically differentiating between The Incomparable God and Jesus?

God Does Not die nor takes/gives birth. Man dies and takes/gives birth, miraculously or naturally.

Jesus worked miracles and so does Dynamo by walking on water.

Can you see the link as to how false Christs arise?

Now I remember watching one vid of his where he calls himself Jibreezus but I can't find it anymore, sorry. Point is, those are the false Christs you want to watch out for. People working miracles, automatically you get baffled, right? Then you're in doubt how the hell does he do all that? Is He God or what? For the better informed, for sure not since God Does Not Resemble any thing in any way!

 

[bible_student]

Job 9:33 sets out a quandary

“For He is not a man, as I am,
That I may answer Him,
And that we should go to court together.
33 Nor is there any mediator between us,
Who may lay his hand on us both.
34 Let Him take His rod away from me,
And do not let dread of Him terrify me.
35 Then I would speak and not fear Him,
But it is not so with me.

If Jesus is less than fully man, he cannot represent us.

If He is less than fully God, He cannot represent Him.

He surely can represent Him, irrespective of the requirements that people may come up with themselves in order to support and defend a church doctrine.

The only requirement that exists, @Red Sky at Morning, is that God says so.

Matthew
3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

12:18 Behold My servant, whom I have chosen; My Beloved, in whom My soul is well pleased: I will put My Spirit upon him, and he shall show Judgment to the Gentiles.

17:5 While he yet spoke, behold, a "Bright Cloud" overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the "Cloud", which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

 

[Douglas Summers]

More judging.

Truth will cause that, for I gave you the Truth and it should cause you to judge yourself (and repent) so as not to be judged with the world. (1 Cor. 11:30-32) This is not judgment of me to your condemnation, but for you to judge yourself to avoid condemnation by God.

 

[Serveto]

@Todd (and others),

Leaving aside, at least momentarily, the controversial dogma of the Trinity, the Nicene Council and suchlike, I think the issue of Christ's divinity, both stated and implied, intersects with that of individual Christians becoming "born again."

When Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again, from above rather than below, Nicodemus was puzzled. He asked how it could be done, comparing it to physical birth. If it is universally applicable that all Christians, to be a Christian, must be born again, how does one become truly and genuinely born again? Does it happen during baptism ("water and the spirit")? Is it to recite, with full conviction and absence of doubt, a formula of belief about Jesus? Finally, if to be born again means one is reborn with a heavenly, or divine, nature instead of a fallen, earthly, Adamic nature, doesn't it suggest that Christians, being part of the body of Christ, are also divine, insofar as they share in that divinity? I have no answers, personally, so will sit on the sidelines and listen if anybody, especially Christians, of course, wants to comment.

 

[Red Sky at Morning]

@Todd (and others),

Leaving aside, at least momentarily, the controversial dogma of the Trinity, the Nicene Council and suchlike, I think the issue of Christ's divinity, both stated and implied, intersects with that of individual Christians becoming "born again."

When Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again, from above rather than below, Nicodemus was puzzled. He asked how it could be done, comparing it to physical birth. If it is universally applicable that all Christians, to be a Christian, must be born again, how does one become truly and genuinely born again? Does it happen during baptism ("water and the spirit")? Is it to recite, with full conviction and absence of doubt, a formula of belief about Jesus? Finally, if to be born again means one is reborn with a heavenly, or divine, nature instead of a fallen, earthly, Adamic nature, doesn't it suggest that Christians, being part of the body of Christ, are also divine, insofar as they share in that divinity? I have no answers, personally, so will sit on the sidelines and listen if anybody, especially Christians, of course, wants to comment.

There is much that can be said about the body, soul and spirit of man that speaks to what happens when you are born again. This says it better than I can.

This is what happened in my particular case.

https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/my-testimony.403/page-2#post-43262

 

[Todd]

@Todd (and others),

Leaving aside, at least momentarily, the controversial dogma of the Trinity, the Nicene Council and suchlike, I think the issue of Christ's divinity, both stated and implied, intersects with that of individual Christians becoming "born again."

When Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again, from above rather than below, Nicodemus was puzzled. He asked how it could be done, comparing it to physical birth. If it is universally applicable that all Christians, to be a Christian, must be born again, how does one become truly and genuinely born again? Does it happen during baptism ("water and the spirit")? Is it to recite, with full conviction and absence of doubt, a formula of belief about Jesus? Finally, if to be born again means one is reborn with a heavenly, or divine, nature instead of a fallen, earthly, Adamic nature, doesn't it suggest that Christians, being part of the body of Christ, are also divine, insofar as they share in that divinity? I have no answers, personally, so will sit on the sidelines and listen if anybody, especially Christians, of course, wants to comment.

Excellent questions....I have some thoughts but not much time at the moment to elaborate.

Is being born again and salvation the same thing? The term born again implies a moment in time event. But the bible also includes references to salvation as a process. Is being born again the inititation into the process? I tend to think being born again is ephinany that occures in our spirit that makes us aware and conscious of the true grace, mercy and love of God. It's the religious indoctrination that often happens after this epiphany that confuses us with the process of trying to formalize our faith with doctrine and stated beliefs.

I often feel like there is tendency to want to make salvation a black/white issue. I.e. you either are or aren't...
I also feel like there is tendceny to define "faith" as beliefs or doctrines, rather than a living relationship and lifestyle of trusting in "GOD" (however you define that) that actually has an impact on your daily life and impacts how you interact with other people (not just what you do Sunday morning). I think for most people who have a radical transformation (often labeled a born again or salvation experience) this is exactly where they start out, until the confusion about dogma, doctrine and belief enter in and cloud everything up.

From reading Jesus' words, he seemed more interested in addressing actions than beliefs or doctrines. Of course the actions should be motivated by faith in God and his grace and not faith in our own ability.

 

[bible_student]

What may perhaps be good to consider, following any kind of discussion like this, is that it is God Who decides how He tests each one of us. How He knows it is needed to test one person, may be different from how He knows to test another person. Abraham had his test. To an outsider, who did not know of God's Purpose with testing Abraham in the exact way He tested him, Abraham's test might have made absolutely zero sense to them, and quite possibly seemed absurd and unbelievable, and they may have felt that it could not possibly be... "because that is not how God tests people!" or, whatever other thought they might have had pop into their head to tell them that Abraham's test was wrong and could not be. But, that was God's Test for Abraham. We are all tested, and of that, only God knows the details of each person. We know, that it says "The LORD sees not as man sees, for man looks on the outward appearance, but The LORD looks on the heart." One person may be tested in a way, that does not conform to another persons exact beliefs and expectations and therefore, it might not be apparent to another person, based on what they are given, and that again also being part of their test. I was told once, "each of you have your own path, but The Way is the same." In Genesis, it tells the great story of how Abraham was tested by God and it says, that Abraham believed God, and that was accounted to him for righteousness. That there is very much that may be learned from that, of that there can be no doubt. So, on that note, I would like to wish you all the best for today, and may it go well with you and your tests, whatever that might be. Be well, and God Bless! bible_student.

 

[Todd]

In Genesis, it tells the great story of how Abraham was tested by God and it says, that Abraham believed God, and that was accounted to him for righteousness.

I think the emphasis of this story wasn't that Abraham just "believed" that God existed, but that he trusted beyond his own understanding what God asked him to do and followed through on that trust. It's important that Abraham's trust was not contigent on him understanding or believing a doctrine or dogma, but that he was obedient to what God specifically asked him to do.

 

[rainerann]

I tend to think being born again is ephinany that occures in our spirit that makes us aware and conscious of the true grace, mercy and love of God. It's the religious indoctrination that often happens after this epiphany that confuses us with the process of trying to formalize our faith with doctrine and stated beliefs.

I agree with what you are saying here. I can even clearly remember this happening in the process of learning to identify myself with other people who shared the same beliefs about Christ.

There were a lot more moments of confusion over whether I should go along with a doctrine or belief that was part of a denomination than there ever was about whether or not I should accept Christ. This is because people basically tell you these things and expect you to agree with them without giving you an opportunity to investigate this for yourself. Then, if you disagree with what they tell you the truth is after accepting Christ, it is clearly because you are only thinking with a carnal mind or only a religious study student or they start claiming that you will face judgement from god for rejecting what they are telling you. Like shaking their finger at the same time and saying,” just wait till you talk to god and he tells you the same thing.” When you think about it, the story of Pentacost has to be true because if the spirit didn’t really pour out on everyone who called on the name of Christ, the church would not have survived.

Over the years, I have come to understand the difference. There is a different certainty that the spirit gives you when he is pointing you to follow his will. Usually, the only fear that I experience in these moments is the fear of being rejected by others. It is at this point when you have to ask yourself if you are more worried about being rejected by others or being rejected by the Creator of all things.

I have a question for you. Would you call yourself a Protestant still? How or when did you decide to change this identification.

I ask because I find that I get lumped in as a Protestant because I am a Christian from a western country but I don’t want this affiliation anymore myself. It seems like it should be enough to be Christian.

 

[rainerann]

What may perhaps be good to consider, following any kind of discussion like this, is that it is God Who decides how He tests each one of us. How He knows it is needed to test one person, may be different from how He knows to test another person. Abraham had his test. To an outsider, who did not know of God's Purpose with testing Abraham in the exact way He tested him, Abraham's test might have made absolutely zero sense to them, and quite possibly seemed absurd and unbelievable, and they may have felt that it could not possibly be... "because that is not how God tests people!" or, whatever other thought they might have had pop into their head to tell them that Abraham's test was wrong and could not be. But, that was God's Test for Abraham. We are all tested, and of that, only God knows the details of each person. We know, that it says "The LORD sees not as man sees, for man looks on the outward appearance, but The LORD looks on the heart." One person may be tested in a way, that does not conform to another persons exact beliefs and expectations and therefore, it might not be apparent to another person, based on what they are given, and that again also being part of their test. I was told once, "each of you have your own path, but The Way is the same." In Genesis, it tells the great story of how Abraham was tested by God and it says, that Abraham believed God, and that was accounted to him for righteousness. That there is very much that may be learned from that, of that there can be no doubt. So, on that note, I would like to wish you all the best for today, and may it go well with you and your tests, whatever that might be. Be well, and God Bless! bible_student.

Ezekiel has been my primary source of coming to the same conclusion you are making here.

When he is told to lie on his side to bear the sin of Israel (Ezekiel 4), I have always been impressed with God’s grace in taking this action as an offering for one. In addition to this, I have been impressed with how unique this task was. No one else in the Bible was told to do the same thing.

More importantly, this was not an action that was included in the law to be implemented by the priests. So it is also profound to recognize the faith of Ezekiel and to see his pursuit of god demonstrated in learning that this was His will for him. There was no where to reference this task in a book.

So it is true that we all have different tests that will not look the same except in how they demonstrate our desire to seek God.

“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” (Matthew 7:7-8)

 

[rainerann]

Truth will cause that, for I gave you the Truth and it should cause you to judge yourself (and repent) so as not to be judged with the world. (1 Cor. 11:30-32) This is not judgment of me to your condemnation, but for you to judge yourself to avoid condemnation by God.

Whenever I read your posts, I am reminded of king ahaz (Isaiah 7)

 

[Todd]

I have a question for you. Would you call yourself a Protestant still? How or when did you decide to change this identification.

I ask because I find that I get lumped in as a Protestant because I am a Christian from a western country but I don’t want this affiliation anymore myself. It seems like it should be enough to be Christian.

I remember someone else asking me this. I don't label myself a protestant. I was never Roman Catholic and never acknowledged that the RCC ever had any authority over me, so I have nothing to protest! I suppose some of the local congregations I have attended in my 30 years of being a Christian may have considerd themselves "protestant" but I don't ever recall the term being used much in any of them. Most of them were labeled charismatic or prophetic/apostolic. For the first 20 years after having a born again experience I associated with the Charismatic movement, but I don't claim any allegiance to it any longer. There are some goods things in the Charismatic movement, but also alot of crazy, abusive and just plain weird stuff. I don't know that I will ever claim or associate myself with a specific denomination or christian movement again. I would rather learn from all denominations and movements and take the good while leaving the bad. Every denominations and movement has strengths and weaknesses. I don't want to put myself or my faith in a box any longer.

For example I have never attended a 7th day adventist chruch, but I have learned quite a bit by studying 7th day adventist teachings (especially on eschatology). That doesn't mean I agree or accept everything they teach, but I have learned a lot and come to some of my own conclusions through studying what they teach.