Where is commanded that I must believe Jesus is God?

[Todd]

Jesus (PBUH) isn't God. However, according to the Bible, Jesus (PBUH) is God (although there's contradictions, I would argue).

If you are a Christian who doesn't believe Jesus (PBUH) is God and you're not a Muslim..... I think maybe you've created a new religion or a new sect.

I think the early, early Christians would have believed that but I'm surprised to see that position from a Christian. I'm not sure if one can hold that position and be a "Christian," in the sense of a follower of the religion of Christianity as far as the modern religion and not the original, original Christianity.

It might be you know more about Christian history than I do. Are there any precedents in Christianity for such a position? Were there any historical Christians who believed that?

There are many Christians who do not believe in the Trinity. I am not a member of any the following denominations but here is a list of those denominations that do not believe Jesus was God;

The Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, Iglesia Ni Cristo, Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, The Church of God International, the United Church of God, and Armstrongism

Most other denominations trace their roots back to the Roman Catholic Church and they still hold to the Trinity doctrine.

If you are interested in reading a little about it go here http://lhim.org/blog/2012/04/10/biblical-unitarianism-from-the-early-church-through-the-middle-ages/

 

[Etagloc]

There are many Christians who do not believe in the Trinity. I am not a member of any the following denominations but here is a list of those denominations that do not believe Jesus was God;

The Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS, Iglesia Ni Cristo, Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, The Church of God International, the United Church of God, and Armstrongism

Most other denominations trace their roots back to the Roman Catholic Church and they still hold to the Trinity doctrine.

If you are interested in reading a little about it go here http://lhim.org/blog/2012/04/10/biblical-unitarianism-from-the-early-church-through-the-middle-ages/

So unitarian Christians don't believe Jesus (PBUH) is God?

Were there any famous Christians who believed that? Not because famous people are more important but it would be interesting to read about a unitarian Augustine.

 

[Todd]

OK, Todd...

Sorry for the late reply - I will speak to you as someone who accepts the authority of scripture as I believe you do.

The reason why I asked if Jesus had been with God from the beginning is that if He had not, God would have been from all eternity past on his own, in a sense like Allah. If Jesus and the Holy Spirit, the complete Godhead have always existed together in unity, this tells me something very different about the nature of God.

On the one hand we have the eternal, Unitarian, utterly "other" and alone. On the other we have three persons in relationship.

The second point I note is that we have Jesus saying with confidence "If you have seen me, to have seen the Father". Since no man has seen God the Father at any time, Jesus must have understood the essence of the infinite God fully, enough to make this statement. As the finite cannot comprehend the infinite Jesus is either guilty of a gross act of hubris here or making a true statement based on his own deity.

As to your question in the OP, I can only answer you from my own experience. I was saved very young and met Jesus in a way I understood at the time. My experience was profound and far reaching but I didn't know a lot of detailed doctrine. As I grew in understanding and relationship with the Lord, I came to understand in my heart and from the Bible who He was.

I am not the judge of your salvation, Todd. If you look to Jesus as your Lord and Saviour you are heading in the right direction though I have never met a Christian who doubted that Jesus was also God (so I'm on unfamiliar ground, unfortunately).

Thank you for the very honest answer. I am not asking you to judge my salvation, so I appreciate your stance when it comes to that. As far as the right direction, I was born again in 1989 and I have attended bible college and have Pastored in trinitarian churches. I accepted that Jesus was God for over 20 years because that is what everyone around me believed and what everyone I sat under taught. However the more I have studied the bible, the more I have questioned "orthodox" belief. As you probably know I also no longer believe in the doctrine of eternal torment. However I have never claimed or believed that belief in Jesus as God or belief in eternal torment negates or disqualifies somebody from salvation. The good news of the gospel includes the fact that our salvation is not dependent on our theology.

While I may disagree with many Christians on doctrine and theology, I consider anyone who trusts in the saving work of Christ's resurrection and death as my brother or sister in Christ. I would never choose to not labor along side another Christian based on those beliefs. If you exhibit the love of God working in your life, you are my brother and sister. God uses anyone who is humble and trusts in him, despite or incorrect doctrine and theology.

I choose to express my "unorthodox" doctrines on the website, more than I do with engaging in people God sends across my path in real life. Initially i thought Christians on a conspiracy website would be more open minded but I have come to learn that is not really the case. I've actually been somewhat surprised to find there many people in orthodox churches who keep similar beliefs to themselves for fear that they will be judged and persecuted by the Church.

If the topic comes up and I am asked I never lie about what I believe, but I trust God to lead me when to share my unorthodox views with those who are open to it. It is never my intention to cause a believer to waver in their faith so I focus on what the Bible is clear about....hence my repeatedly stating that I believe Jesus is the Messiah and the lamb of God slain for the sin of the world. Jesus is Lord and Christ....no arguments there. I don't come here looking for validation of my beliefs, but I do come here as it continually challenges me to study and really know why I beleive what I do believe. It also acts as a check to make sure my beliefs are based on what God has revealed to me by his word and not that I am just regurgitating what man has taught me. Yes much of what I have learned has come through other people, so please don't take that last statement as some sort of arrogant claim that I have no need of human teachers.

I ask this question about believing Jesus is God because I don't see where it is stated as requirement for faith and salvation. If I am wrong and Jesus really is God my conscience is clear because I still trust in the work of the cross for my salvation. I hope this makes sense to you, even if you don't agree with me.

 

[free2018]

In this thread I am not looking to argue whether Jesus is God or not. I am simply asking where it is commanded that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved.

In the Christianity idolatry thread, this question is being ingnored so I thought I would ask it here hoping to get it answered.

Nowhere is this said.
My understanding is it is clear that he always presented the distinction.

 

[Todd]

Nowhere is this said.
My understanding is it is clear that he always presented the distinction.

Well it's not clear to me and I can't base my faith on somebody else's understanding.

 

[free2018]

Well it's not clear to me and I can't base my faith on somebody else's understanding.

Fair enough.
Scriptures, it is.

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 5:19-29 - Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

 

[Todd]

The question isn't sincere because it would never occur to a Christian. Spirit-led Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God, and we have faith in God for our salvation. The question you are really asking is, "Why should God be worshiped? Why do you worship Jesus Christ? Why don't you worship ME?"

The question implies that if faith in Jesus Christ as God is necessary for salvation, there would be a place in the Bible that specifically says exactly that. Anyone who is familiar with the Bible and how doctrine is proven -- an ex-pastor, say, or Satan -- would already know that such a question is a dishonest one.

You are a wolf, @Todd, and there is a good reason why you reject Paul's teachings, especially what he says in Romans 16. You are described exactly, and you are to be marked and avoided.

17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.​

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.​

Ah yes the typical religious answer when a question cannot be answered from scripture...
If you can't answer the question attack the character of someone who you do not know.

 

[free2018]

God is not asking me to worship Jesus, Mary, saints or anyone and that's my scriptural understanding.
I am not asked to worship idols.
And that's my understanding of the scriptures.
I believed differently in my youth, but I've read the scriptures too many times to have any vagueness about this.

 

[Todd]

Fair enough.
Scriptures, it is.

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 5:19-29 - Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

How do any of those scritpures command me to believe Jesus is God? I fully accept and believe all three of those verses. Jesus is the way the truth and the life (the living embodiment of the Torah, God's perfect guidance and instruction). Jesus is the word made flesh, just as we are all living epistles when we are lead by the spirit of God. The son could do everything himself if he was God. So why does he say he can nothing of himself?

 

[free2018]

How do any of those scritpures command me to believe Jesus is God? I fully accept and believe all three of those verses. Jesus is the way the truth and the life (the living embodiment of the Torah, God's perfect guidance and instruction). Jesus is the word made flesh, just as we are all living epistles when we are lead by the spirit of God. The son could do everything himself if he was God. So why does he say he can nothing of himself?

I don't believe Jesus is God.
I am no longer a Trinitarian.
I stopped being one a long time ago and got clear what I was here on this board.
I believe in the Bible.
I follow Christ's example.
Everything about Christ I believe.
I know he performed miracles.
I do not believe that God let himself die for any reason.

 

[free2018]

How do any of those scritpures command me to believe Jesus is God? I fully accept and believe all three of those verses. Jesus is the way the truth and the life (the living embodiment of the Torah, God's perfect guidance and instruction). Jesus is the word made flesh, just as we are all living epistles when we are lead by the spirit of God. The son could do everything himself if he was God. So why does he say he can nothing of himself?

Jesus is the Tanakhn and the embodiment of the word.
He fulfilled the law.
Jesus is the son of God.
Jesus is not God.
Jesus has a genealogy which goes back to Adam.
He was a prince of power.
We are the sons of man.
He can do nothing by himself, because his power comes from the Most High.
This may not be your understanding, but this has been my understanding for many years.

 

[Todd]

Jesus is the Tanakhn and the embodiment of the word.
He fulfilled the law.
Jesus is the son of God.
Jesus is not God.
Jesus has a genealogy which goes back to Adam.
He was a prince of power.
We are the sons of man.
He can do nothing by himself, because his power comes from the Most High.
This may not be your understanding, but this has been my understanding for many years.

Oh sorry I misunderstood your stance. We appear to agree on the issue. I agree with everything you listed in this post.

 

[elsbet]

Jesus (PBUH) isn't God. However, according to the Bible, Jesus (PBUH) is God (although there's contradictions, I would argue).

If you are a Christian who doesn't believe Jesus (PBUH) is God and you're not a Muslim..... I think maybe you've created a new religion or a new sect.

It might be you know more about Christian history than I do. Are there any precedents in Christianity for such a position? Were there any historical Christians who believed that?

I think the early, early Christians would have believed that but I'm surprised to see that position from a Christian. I'm not sure if one can hold that position and be a "Christian," in the sense of a follower of the religion of Christianity as far as the modern religion and not the original, original Christianity.

But they *can* be Gnostics.

Good eye, @Etagloc

 

[free2018]

But they *can* be Gnostics.

Good eye, @Etagloc

Gnostics believe completely differently.
There are few Gnostics on the board.

 

[Vixy]

I don't believe Jesus is God.
I am no longer a Trinitarian.
I stopped being one a long time ago and got clear what I was here on this board.
I believe in the Bible.
I follow Christ's example.
Everything about Christ I believe.
I know he performed miracles.
I do not believe that God let himself die for any reason.

Funny, this is exactly how I see the matter. Every church around here except for Jehovas witnesses, believes that Jesus is God but I dont think so. And everytime they say that, something within me squirms. Its really refreshing to see someone else believes the same thing.

 

[free2018]

Funny, this is exactly how I see the matter. Every church around here except for Jehovas witnesses, believes that Jesus is God but I dont think so. And everytime they say that, something within me squirms. Its really refreshing to see someone else believes the same thing.

I am not going to derail but it started with the Council of Nicaea in Turkey in the 4th century supposedly.

 

[Vixy]

I am not going to derail but it started with the Council of Nicaea in Turkey in the 4th century supposedly.

Oooh, interesting..! You KNOW my ass'll google this shait.
Update: Well theyre saying he was just a man. I dont agree with that bc I feel thats belittling his part. I Do believe he is the son of God and thereby a divine creature but not God in person, no. He is the highest form of divinity next to God.

 

[Renegade]

I am not going to derail but it started with the Council of Nicaea in Turkey in the 4th century supposedly.

Bit earlier actually..https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-vc-case-for-christ-thread.217/post-10063

 

[free2018]

Oooh, interesting..! You KNOW my ass'll google this shait.
Update: Well theyre saying he was just a man. I dont agree with that bc I feel thats belittling his part. I Do believe he is the son of God and thereby a divine creature but not God in person, no. He is the highest form of divinity next to God.

No he wasn't just a man.

 

[free2018]

Bit earlier actually..https://vigilantcitizenforums.com/threads/the-vc-case-for-christ-thread.217/post-10063

Point taken, indeed.